EPTFrom games have always had ways to reduce difficulty. It’s called summoning or grinding. They had the messages. Sekiro removes some of that and I think there is some room systems to mitigate the challenge.
Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice - Page 4
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
From games have always had ways to reduce difficulty. It’s called summoning or grinding. They had the messages. Sekiro removes some of that and I think there is some room systems to mitigate the challenge. | ||
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
On April 07 2019 00:12 Plansix wrote: As a counter point to the overcoming obstacles argument: if the player leaves the game or is physically incapable overcoming the challenge, the art has failed to achieve its goal of making them feel like a rad ninja mastering forbidden ninja moves. Well the nature of challenge is that not everyone is able to do it. Does a book fail at being art if not everyone gets the story? I think you're setting an impossible goal here. Moreover what is this about disabilities? It is impossible to tailor everything to the needs of everyone. If there was a requirement that disabled people (what disabilities are we even talking about?) are able to play every game, there are complete genres of games that couldn't even exist. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
And difficulty sliders are literally built into Sekiro. There is a bell that makes the game harder. New game + exists. The methods and systems provide more paths to experiencing these games exist within the game itself. Frankly, we do From games a disservice by claiming they are all about the difficulty. There is an entire YouTube channel with millions upon millions of views digging into the lore, art and themes of these games. There are lots of people who play these games for things other than the challenge. Sekiros a fascinating narrative of use of extra natural weapons to empower war to control territory leading to a rotting sickness. The game doesn’t have to have an “easy mode”. But the discussion of these games needs to move beyond the precious “this is my hard video game” narrative. Because honestly, there are harder games out there that do not sell themselves as a “hard video game.” | ||
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
The difficulty of dark souls is also a narrative element. In dark souls, there is kind of a meta-narrative about the plot being about the player not giving up, and seeing it through to the end, to become the one to link the fire. There is no way to fail your quest except by quitting the game. There is also plenty that suggests there are many other 'chosen ones' hinting at all the other players of the game. Anyways, regardless of all that, dark souls isn't even that difficult of a game. As you mentioned, it's obtuse. It doesn't tell you how its mechanics work, it barely gives you any hints except through semi cryptic dialogue, and it never reaches out its hand to the player and says "here, let me help you". But that isn't really difficulty. You can make dark souls exceptionally easy by just getting the right weapons, buffs, armor and stats (or just by using magic which is really OP in all the games). For all the hard stuff there is in DS, there is plenty of things you can do to counter-act the challenge and completely trivialize it. The first time I played through it, I got smashed by the bell tower gargoyles over and over again. Why? Because I hadn't upgraded my weapon. If you run in there with a +5 lightning buffed longsword and a stable shield, the fight is over pretty quickly, even if you really suck at the combat. Except for the kinda cheesy 'prepare to die edition' marketing, DS doesnt even really tout its difficulty. At least Miyazaki doesnt. He has repeatedly said the purpose of these games is not to be difficult, but that the difficulty is just a means to an end. + Show Spoiler + "I have no intention to make the game more difficult than other titles on purpose! It's just something required to make this style of game. Ever since Demon's Souls, I've really been pursuing making games that give players a sense of accomplishment by overcoming tremendous odds. We've added new items and weapons over the course of the series, and having a certain level of difficulty adds value to those because they incentivise players to experiment more with character builds and weapon load-outs." https://www.gamespot.com/articles/dark-souls-director-says-difficulty-serves-satisfaction/1100-6394583/ + Show Spoiler + ""I personally want my games to be described as satisfying rather than difficult," Miyazaki said. "However, I suppose gamers do not particularly prefer easy games. What they want is interesting and worthwhile games to play, so I think it is natural that hindrance or stress that does not attribute to such interesting and worthwhile elements will be removed in the end."" https://www.gamespot.com/articles/dark-souls-director-says-difficulty-serves-satisfaction/1100-6394583/ I don't really understand how you arrive that the idea that there is a "'this is my hard video game' narrative". These games aren't all about the difficulty: the difficulty is a means to an end, and is easily counteracted by knowledge of the mechanics and items. | ||
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byte-Curious
Mexico107 Posts
The game was difficult, as in unforgiving and tedious, whilst leveling. Anything that would reduce the time to grind, or make you better able to survive sticky situations, or made you a bigger asset to a group, was therefore much appreciated. So, the game nudged you (not quite forced you, alas) to get better gear, so leveling would be easier. That made you team up with other players, for the best loot was reserved to group quests and mostly to dungeons. In an of itself, the tedious grind wasn't good game design, but it made for a great, tight-knight community. The same is true in a way for Dark Souls. Is it brilliant game design to get cursed and lose half of your max HP until you figure out how to lift the curse? No really, but it contributes greatly to make the world seem more hostile, threatening, and reinforces the point that there is a challenge to be overcome. An easy Dark Souls would honestly just be a shittier Devil May Cry, or whatever action game. I find this whole call for easy modes pathetic, really. You wouldn't try and force an author to simplify her language so more people can understand her work. You wouldn't write self-righteous blogs about how, while you don't need it, there should be a simplified version of the Mona Lisa for those who lack the 'art appreciation skills' to understand the original. Yet if a game studio doesn't cater to everyone, they're evil incarnate and basically basement dwellers. But yeah, perhaps we shouldn't get upset about talentless grievance studies majors doing the only thing they can: bitch, moan and virtue signal. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
And the art analogy is really off base. Appreciating the Mona Lisa to the fullest extent requires hours upon hours of research into art and the history of the painting. Easy mode isn't making the work simplistic, it is viewing the painting with a tour guide explaining the painting. | ||
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byte-Curious
Mexico107 Posts
On April 08 2019 22:02 Plansix wrote: They are making main stream games that sell millions more units than Demon Souls did. So they're doing great, why change the formula that made them rich? Not sure how your analogy describes easy mode better than mine, but of course every analogy to another medium is flawed. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10871 Posts
That makes absolutely no sense to me. Constant, repeated failure or at least real danger is part of the core gamedesign, by lowering the difficulty you take that away. You alter the core of the game. Btw: If i'm not mistaken there exist literature classics in dumbed down versions so more people can read them? I mostly play my games on hard (not hardest, just hard), but often I immediatly realise if the game was made for that difficulty. I really would love for all games to recommend the "intended" difficulty. In many games the difficulty settings plain suck, just adding HP to enemies and weakening you, that throws off any kind of balance and alters the experience. Theoretically this shouldn't need to be the case, but designed seperate AI/Behaviours for every difficulty setting is a bit much? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
But I digress. The problem with this discussion is that it is binary and lacks nuance. No one is talking about adding a mode that makes the bosses beatable on the first try. That would go against the vision of the game. Even the discussion around an "easy mode" isn't really about making the game "easier" per say, but getting more players over the hump where they get the flow of the combat and see the light at the end of the tunnel with bosses. Maybe it is a dream sequence that lets you practice against a bosses specific move set endlessly, but only triggers once you have eaten shit against a boss a set number of times. Accessibility and approachability are two separate things, but come to the same goal of allowing more people feel like a rad bad ass ninja. And that requires failure and struggle. But difficulty and struggle are subjective, differing between people. What form that takes could be any number of things. But one step in that is dispelling the myth that these games only for hardcore gamers who love punishing games. Because they aren’t. Learning to play a musical instrument well requires more effort and challenge than getting through a run of Dark Souls. They are just demanding games. | ||
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Duka08
3391 Posts
Like a few people have said, the now-infamous difficulty of the series has become its charm to a broader audience. The depth and artistry of the world or whatever is only revealed after you give it the time and patience it deserves. Sekiro isn't much different, but mysteriously I don't remember explosions of complaints about "choose your difficulty" when DkS2+3 came out lol. Maybe the aesthetic appeals to a slightly different audience that isn't familiar with the other From titles. Maybe the difference in progression means those having issues can't just farm their character levels up or whatever to brute force it. Edit: Maybe it is a dream sequence that lets you practice against a bosses specific move set endlessly, but only triggers once you have eaten shit against a boss a set number of times. This is an interesting idea. I find myself dicking around in the Void in DMC5, which is basically that game's version of a training room (or like a fighting game training mode, invincible player/enemies, etc.) Edit2: Oh yeah, summoning lol, good call. Probably another huge factor. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
There were discussions about difficulty when it came to Dark Souls 3, but I think they were mitigated a bit by the series being true to that vision. And you could grind souls, as you said. The tricks of Dark Souls were known, so people knew what to expect and how win if they wanted. Fall rolling never ceased to be an option. But the discourse around lowing the barriers for people to get into From's games really started in Dark Souls 3. Edit: On the topic of Sekiro, I'm at the point where there isn't much exploring to do and I have about three bosses left. And I have to say that From might have gone a bit to far with the Demon of Hatred. It isn't that I don't think the boss is interesting. Its that I think the camera is trash, he is to big and his basic attacks cause way to much fire damage. And damage in general. I'm all for a fun, big boss fight in my ninja game, but one deathblow please and thank you. | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
The endboss of Hirata Estate was insanely difficult. Insanely. I have a feeling most of the "easy mode" complaints originate from just this one fight. I think that boss took me a solid 3-4 hours' worth of attempts to beat. I've been watching some streamers play the game as well and it's been so amusing to me watching Day9, Vinesauce, CohhCarnage, and Aris go from struggling to trivializing almost every fight. Sekiro's combat is so very different from Dark Souls that it requires massive, massive adjustment. It was actually insulting to me seeing these streamers go so aggro on bosses that I spent hours on and succeeding. I'm coming from years of Souls games, and I'm used to enemies that have long, telegraphed attack wind-ups that you then dodge and punish. The reason you can't just whack away at bosses in Dark Souls is because generally they have enough Poise to withstand the few hits you'd land before their attack finishes and counterhits you for 90% of your health. In Sekiro, the enemy will block and take some Posture damage until they eventually deflect and counterattack. I was approaching combat from the Dark Souls school where you discover the enemy's movelist, then adapt your positioning, avoid it, and get some hits in. That's just not a very effective strategy against most of the bosses in Sekiro (there are a few Souls-style bosses though). What really made the game click for me was the discovery of two major things: 1. Deflects are not parries. Deflects are not parries. Deflects are not parries. The Deflect window is considerably more forgiving, the payoff is nowhere near as huge (sometimes you'll get one free strike, sometimes you'll just inflict some Posture damage), and you can Deflect while blocking meaning you're not making a committed decision (unlike in Dark Souls). In Dark Souls, you had to NOT block for a minimum amount of time before you were allowed to parry, so it was high-risk, high-reward. In Sekiro, if an enemy unleashes a 7-hit flurry on you and you're blocking, go ahead and try to time those Deflects while you're blocking. If you miss, no big deal, you still didn't take any damage (other than perhaps the higher relative Posture damage you take from blocking instead of Deflecting). 2. Combat generally rewards aggression. Streamers were going aggro on enemies because enemies don't have good counterplay against it. It works, and that's part of the design. You're not balancing Stamina against options in this game. You can go in for a few strikes, inflict some Posture damage, and go right back to blocking point-blank and be completely safe, where the only things that can hurt you will come with "danger" notifications over your head. When I was fighting the Hirata Estate endboss, I just assumed I had to get that enemy health bar to zero because Posture regenerates so quickly. Imagine my surprise when Aris won with ease by just mashing attacks and blocking in the boss's face, breaking the boss's Posture with plenty of the boss's health still remaining. You're supposed to get in there and mess them up. Dark Souls conditions you to be afraid to push buttons. Your weapons are generally slow, and they're a commitment. Sekiro wants to guide you away from that, and FromSoft makes some difficulty concessions relative to that adjustment, such as the 100% physical damage mitigation while blocking and being able to deflect while blocking. It's a similar game in some ways, but so very different in others. If you fail to adjust and try to play it like a Souls game, you'll become increasingly frustrated like I did. Once the flow of Sekiro combat clicks, you get that same feeling of relief as mastering Dark Souls combat: you're no longer fighting the controls, your character is no longer this clunky jerk who doesn't listen. The "easy mode" arguments kind of miss the mark for me because nobody can agree on the means. It almost sounds like a "tax the rich" argument (everyone agrees rich people should pay their "fair share", but nobody can agree on a firm number, which is why the argument intentionally remains nebulous). What does an "easy mode" look like? At least Plansix paints a picture that sounds pretty reasonable. I'm sure some people would argue that there should be a faceroll "see the story" difficulty, or reduce enemy movesets, or remove enemies. It means different things to different people. Saying that there should be an "easy mode" is an effective rallying cry that I think most people could get behind in theory, but I think you'd have a harder time convincing people when proposing specific examples because those examples will either go too far or not far enough depending on the reader. To some extent that lack of detail may even be intentional, but that may be presumptive of me. All this to say I'm getting the same level of satisfaction that I got from learning Dark Souls the first time. The game gets easier the more I understand the intentions of the system. I can buy upgrades, but I don't feel forced to do so. I like the twist that to get stronger, you have to beat more bosses (as opposed to just grinding souls). You can still grind a little bit to get access to more moves or more passives (like deathblow healing or enhanced healing from items), but your health and damage can only be increased by killing bosses and minibosses. Very cool, very fun game. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
And the demon of hatred just sucks. The entire boss design is about running fast and rarely deflecting. It would be fine, but the thing takes three death blows. I’ll beat it, but I’m not enjoying the process. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
First the devs are free to design the game as they want. However, if the dev chooses to make a game with the specific intent of having you struggle through it, learning its nuances before finally overcoming said struggles, as in make the game hard but fair, then adding an easy mode is not the right way to do it. The correct approach is to design the game such that it has a very customization control scheme which could allow even people with disabilities to play. Also, since the devs are free to design the game as they see fit, that design doesn't necessarily need to, nor should it appeal to everyone, in fact I feel doing so makes a game objectively worse as it lacks vision and identity. Lastly, if you approach a game such as Dark Souls, Bloodborne or Sekiro, knowing full well its a hard game about overcoming obstacles, and then complain for an easy mode, well that's entirely your fault as a player and a sign the game is maybe not for you. Players should be more responsible with their purchases and not expect everyone to cater to them. Now regarding the game's design. I was indeed sad at the lack of RPG elements and customization, but I still applaud From Software for going this route as they have proven again they aren't afraid to experiment and wanted to deliver an experience as sharp as possible. I also felt this new combat, while a large departure from Souls, was a refreshing take on the formula and it gelled incredibly well with the ninja duelist fantasy they were going for, and I loved it. I hope they continue using these lessons to make even better and more challenging games in the future and if possible incorporate some of these lessons into a new Dark Souls or Bloodborne game without having to remove the RPG. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
Just met blazing bull(?) at the end of my last go at it and defeated lady butterfly in the hirata estate. Feels like I was not supposed to fight her before making it further into the Ashina castle but alas she's been defeated. I'm left wondering if there is another way to advance now in the memory or was that it. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Latham
9572 Posts
SuperSayajin Isshin, Demon of Hatred, Father Owl and am thinking if I should do all the endings... I'll probably do the "bad" or "evil" ending second, on NG+ but not sure if I want the other 2... I'm up to 20 VIT and 11 Power I'm dreading the following 3 bosses, but I also want to complete the game having experienced them. This game kinda makes me want to get 100% achievements on steam, which is very rare  there have been only a select few games that made me want to do that like Witcher 3 and Salt&Santuary, which should speak volumes about this game's fun factor, enjoyability and replayability.Hmm, I just read you can backup saves and get the 3 endings in one go and then just go for evil in NG+, I think I'll do just that because replaying the whole game just to get slightly modified cutscenes is not something I'd consider very engaging. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
Sekiro also sold more than 2 million copies in 10 days, a feat that took 2 months for Dark Souls 3. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019-04-11-sekiro-shadows-die-twice-has-already-sold-more-than-two-million-copies | ||
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