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Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice - Page 3

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Warri
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany3208 Posts
April 03 2019 21:06 GMT
#41
How playable is this game with kb/mouse? I tried dark souls 3 but absolutely could not stand the controls.
skindzer
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
Chile5114 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-04 02:53:01
April 04 2019 02:52 GMT
#42
On April 04 2019 06:06 Warri wrote:
How playable is this game with kb/mouse? I tried dark souls 3 but absolutely could not stand the controls.


While I'm playing with a DS4, according to several people its even better with kb/mouse since it helps you avoid the camera issues (which are overstated imo) and most of the combat its either left or right click.
Its not only the rain that brings the thunder
byte-Curious
Profile Joined October 2018
Mexico107 Posts
April 04 2019 09:20 GMT
#43
Why does any new release of a difficult game spawn a bunch of untalented SJW bloggers white-knighting about not having an easy mode?

It's like going to a museum, looking at an abstract painting and demanding it be simplified to understand for those who don't understand art. Guess shitting on something a niche of players like is really lucrative these days.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10702 Posts
April 04 2019 10:46 GMT
#44
On April 04 2019 18:20 byte-Curious wrote:
Why does any new release of a difficult game spawn a bunch of untalented SJW bloggers white-knighting about not having an easy mode?

It's like going to a museum, looking at an abstract painting and demanding it be simplified to understand for those who don't understand art. Guess shitting on something a niche of players like is really lucrative these days.



Uhm... Change your media diet?
I watched plenry of Sekiro reviews, gameplay and stuff in general, nothing like this ever came up.
byte-Curious
Profile Joined October 2018
Mexico107 Posts
April 04 2019 11:04 GMT
#45
I had that terrible Kotaku article thrust upon me.

That's not a site I'd frequent myself.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 04 2019 14:44 GMT
#46
The discussion around difficulty is ever present. I enjoy difficult games like Sekiro, but I am the only real life person I know that does. To find peers that enjoy that game I need to go online to discuss it and that is sort of a bummer. It kinda sucks because I’m pouring hours into this game and can’t talk about it at lunch break or with people who play other games. The discussion is always about how the game is really hard, they will never play it and it quickly seems like I am bragging about how good I am at video games. Which is dumb because From games are things that you just rub your face up against until you beat them. On top of that, there are folks have real disabilities that can never enjoy the games or would have to work 5 times as hard just to do so. And some do, which is fun to champion. Most do not.

The other problem is that companies like From decided to make difficulty part of their marketing back in Dark Souls one and it sort of poisoned the well. Hard games have existed forever, but so have cheats and other things to allow people to get through them. But because From used the difficult to set the game apart and position overcoming the challenge as inherently, and critically meritorious, it created this resistance to anything that would make those games more accessible for anyone. And that mythology about Dark Souls being so hard(Dark Souls is not hard, it is obtuse and often bullshit) drives people away who might find those games to be totally acceptable.

To put it another way, I was describing the fight with the guardian ape to a buddy and he said it sounded awesome. And then I told him about figuring out the spear trick and he asked why the game didn’t just explain the spear could do that. And the answer is “Because From games are kinda bullshit and don’t explain stuff, even if you die 50 times on a boss. Instead we go on youtube and look up a guide if that happens.”
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10702 Posts
April 04 2019 15:19 GMT
#47
To be fair, Dark Souls had that messaging/coop function in game exactly for this reason.

Also: Dark Souls 1+3 are really not that obstruse (I didn't play 2)?
Looking at DS1. Sure, it got a few bullshit traps, curse status, the stupid crystal cave, bed of chaos anda few places could probably do with a bonfire more but else? I don't see where it is that bad? Especially because the worst parts come late in the game at points where "bad" gamer won't reach anyway?
From the top of my head i don't remember a single boss that requires some weird gimmick for you to kill it? Or what do you mean with obtuse and bullshit?


I didn't get Sekiro yet, the parry gameplay is really putting me off, i never bother to parry in DS1/3...
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 04 2019 15:27 GMT
#48
I think we all forget that the opening of Dark Souls is you getting thrown in prison, fighting a weird demon, getting kidnapped by a crow and meeting a sad man that tells you to ring two bells someplace in the world, but doesn’t tell you why. And I haven’t even gotten into building a character and how easy it is to waste soul levels. Or how weapons scale and don’t tell how they will scale going forward in the game. That game is super obtuse if you just real on what the game tells you at the time you play it.

Sekiro's parrying is both easy to do and fun. You can block all damage and learn a boss's tells, then dig into deflecting. It is a really cool system once you get over your instinct to dodge.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Latham
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
9560 Posts
April 04 2019 15:39 GMT
#49
Yeah I really fell in love with the combat in this game. The way the swordfights work is just beautiful. You hit 1-3 times the enemy guards, then he hits you and you deflect. Add some perilous attacks to spice things up to keep you entertained and the cool counters to make you feel badass.

Anyone else thinks THIS is exactly how lightsaber fights should be done in Star Wars games?
The fun part is you don't need any combat arts or prosthetic gear to win a fight. Yes they make a fight easier or even trivialize them, but you can pretty much deflect anything: bull horns, fist slams, spears thrusts, kicks, claws, gun shots and arrows, etc. with the right timing. The game also rewards you for actually hitting the reflects correctly, not just blocking or spamming the deflect button. The weapons go *ting* like a small bell indicating you were spot on with your reflect.

It's really beautiful and elegant in its simplicity.
For the curse of life is the curse of want. PC = https://be.pcpartpicker.com/list/4JknvV
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10702 Posts
April 04 2019 15:41 GMT
#50
Ok, fair point. The scaling is actually shown but with no explanation of how it actually works , the Magic system is, especially for classes that don't start with a spells, really weird to figure out.
Its very easy to waste soul Levels, but its pretty hard to skill yourself so bad that your character is real garbage if your not actively trying to... Most weapons have requirements that guide you, that plus a few points in Vitaility and Stamina pretty much makes your build fine?

That the story is obstruse and that you are kinda lost after you come to firelink is kinda the name of the game? I mean, thats a big part of its charm?

DS1 (well, all of them) have big flaws when it comes to explaining the mechanics, but being lost in the world and having no real clue what your doing is not a flaw.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-04 16:43:57
April 04 2019 16:40 GMT
#51
Don't get me wrong, I love Dark Souls, its obtuse story telling and subversive narrative. We meet someone called a fire keeper, locked in a cage, who tells us it is her job to assist people like us to link the fire. Her name is "fire keeper". How do you keep a fire beyond adding fuel to it? Yet we continue like it is some hero's journey to become legend. In DS3, we wake up after not one, but four lords who previously linked the fire are unwilling to do it and are told to go kill them all and bring them back to complete their duty and continue the age of flame. Everyone talks about the pain of being undead and the fire keeper is "bound to the flame" where we find a god damn tower filled with the bodies of former fire keepers. There are a lot of way to see our characters in Dark Souls as the villain that is allowed an abusive cycle of violence to continue because of a fear of change.

Especially in DS3, when the "good" ending is require facing the unknown and empowering the most subservient character to do what they have always wanted. Or helping build a world where people can escape the cycle and obtain some agency, even if that agency is simply rotting away in peace, without pain. That is so my bullshit I can't even.

But the problem with Dark Souls is that being lost doesn't have a clear path to finding your way. The game wants you to get lost, but doesn't think about how to get a player back on track of they hit a email "fail state" where they really can't crack what to do next. And the solution to that is "look up what to do on the internet." I would love From to get over that specific part of their games and find creative ways to get players back on track. They have no shortage of creativity and I think their next big challenge should be finding ways to keep the discovery and joy intact, but also add in options to get a player back on the path to see the whole game.

And on that note, as people who enjoy these games, it is more productive to discuss how to direct players to the way we solved those problems in these games. In Sekiro, I had a real struggle with Genichiro for like 5 days. After two days, I did what I normally do and look up if there is anything else I could be doing. I found that there were a bunch of healing upgrades I could easily get and found that an attack he was doing stunned me for to long to do a specific counter to his follow up.

Sekiro would be a better game if it reminded players that were getting their ass beat by a boss to explore and find some upgrades. Especially if the system was built to only provide that feedback if there were really upgrades to find. And this doesn't need to be a popup. It could be a weird dream sequence or resurrecting in a weird place where there is some sweet dog/bird/thing to provide obtuse direction to the player. From is beyond creative enough to build systems that help people through the game without removing the core of the experience.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
byte-Curious
Profile Joined October 2018
Mexico107 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-05 09:20:42
April 05 2019 07:19 GMT
#52
On April 05 2019 01:40 Plansix wrote:


But the problem with Dark Souls is that being lost doesn't have a clear path to finding your way.


That's like half of the charm of DS1.

I'm with you on providing better explanations for what stats do and how scaling and covenants work, especially when it comes to the Pyromancy Flame. Mechanics like that should be explained.

In terms of story telling and world building, though, the more obfuscation the better.

There's never been a better moment in a single player game for than suddenly arriving back at Firelink Shrine after ringing the second bell. The descent into hell, the laborious ascent afterwards, and the final elation once one realises one is back 'home' simply has no parallels for me. Had I not been stuck, lost, terrified and grossed out most of the way, I don't think it would have felt nearly as good.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10702 Posts
April 05 2019 08:57 GMT
#53
Nah, the best moment was me watching a random streamer playing his first Dark Souls doing what many do, going towards the Graveyard, this guy was just really stubborn.
He died and died and died but was just not giving up, after several hours he killed Pinwheel... Then running around wildly until finally someone told him, that he is at the wrong place and needs to climb back up. Several hours later he actually made it back to Firelink :D.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 05 2019 13:35 GMT
#54
On April 05 2019 16:19 byte-Curious wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2019 01:40 Plansix wrote:


But the problem with Dark Souls is that being lost doesn't have a clear path to finding your way.


That's like half of the charm of DS1.

I'm with you on providing better explanations for what stats do and how scaling and covenants work, especially when it comes to the Pyromancy Flame. Mechanics like that should be explained.

In terms of story telling and world building, though, the more obfuscation the better.

There's never been a better moment in a single player game for than suddenly arriving back at Firelink Shrine after ringing the second bell. The descent into hell, the laborious ascent afterwards, and the final elation once one realises one is back 'home' simply has no parallels for me. Had I not been stuck, lost, terrified and grossed out most of the way, I don't think it would have felt nearly as good.

Yes it is and I’m not saying it should go away. But as I detailed in my post, there is a point when that becomes a roadblock for players. And From should look into that and see if there are ways to help players if they hit those road blocks. I’m not saying add a waypoint system. I'm saying add something to nudge players to finding those charming moments.

In Sekiro, for example, if I died 20 times trying to fight a boss and I respawned at a shrine in an area where there is a gourd seed(heal upgrade) I had not gotten yet, I would go looking for that upgrade I had not gotten. They could telegraph that early on in the game saying sometimes you receive aid in strange ways, like waking up in a new place with something that could help you.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10702 Posts
April 05 2019 14:55 GMT
#55
So you want Itemtrackers? Because thats what you are arguing for.
The Souls games all teached you that searching for stuff is rewarding. I don't see how you think this isn't the case. From what i've seen Sekiro is also doing this a plenty.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 05 2019 15:36 GMT
#56
On April 05 2019 23:55 Velr wrote:
So you want Itemtrackers? Because thats what you are arguing for.
The Souls games all teached you that searching for stuff is rewarding. I don't see how you think this isn't the case. From what i've seen Sekiro is also doing this a plenty.

Not at all. I floated the idea the game to suggest exploring an area by respawning there after I eat shit for the 20th time on a boss. Wordless suggesting “There is something down this path that will make that fight easier”. From games already do a bunch of subtle things to teach people how to play their games, I’m just suggesting one more.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Laurens
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium4541 Posts
April 05 2019 16:50 GMT
#57
The fact that bosses are hard is what makes this game good. Just beat Genichiro so it's still early days for me, apparently he's nothing compared to later bosses. So maybe next week I'm here complaining, we'll see. For now though I love the game.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 05 2019 17:24 GMT
#58
I do love the bosses. Genichiro really tripped me up. But I finally beat him in the best way possible, but redirecting this lightening attack and then nearly losing because I was so pumped I finally pulled off that move.

But I can see how newer people get tripped up on them and don’t realize they can just go do something else in the game and come back to the boss later on.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
blunderfulguy
Profile Blog Joined April 2016
United States1415 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-06 04:51:15
April 06 2019 04:50 GMT
#59
(Written on mobile so pardon for any missing or mispelled words or overall disjointedness.)

Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and especially Sekiro are not just about being hard games. They are about overcoming obstacles. if you simply make the games easier, the whole foundation the games are built on would crumble and they would stop being good games for their intended audience. It's like telling a pizza place that doesn't make the most popular pizza and doesn't serve a single beer from a macro brewery and doesn't play any of the current popular music to change what they're doing for their loyal customers so they appeal to everyone else, when everyone else already has Pizza Hut and Little Ceasar's and Domino's and- well, I think you get the idea.
If it's "too hard" for you to beat or become invested in or play at length without becoming frustrated at the game, it might just be that it isn't for you, that it wasn't made for you.
(Then there's the group of people hating on the game because it does X, Y, or Z differently from Dark Souls/Bloodborne or [insert other game here] which was also a problem with Dark Souls players when Bloodborne came out, but I think they eventually got over it?)

As far as making it more accessible for people with disabilities, that's entirely separate from the games' supposed difficulty (Very Hard) and, in my opinion, saying "add in easy mode for people with disabilities, at least" is doing a disservice to all gamers with disabilities who want to overcome the same challenges in games and feel the same, deep sense of accomplishment in these games the same way everyone else does. If you "add in an easy mode" in Sekiro for them, they aren't going to get the full experience, and it becomes a wasted effort to try to find a sad, water-logged middle ground that would likely not even make the people crying out about that aspect of the game less upset at it for being what it is. Instead of adding an easy mode or trying to reach that impossible middle ground, players and game developers and hardware developers need to work together to find different solutions, things that will keep the game what it was intended to be and help more people dive deeper into the game.

Tutorials and hints and training modes are things that some voices demand to have in the game, but Sekiro does have the standard pop-up fare as well as Eavesdropping and a practice dummy training NPC that, while they could be better, work pretty well if you pay attention and put some effort into the game (especially for training with Hanbei) while staying true to From's niche style of game. That is to say, Sekiro gives only the barest of information required to start asking questions and exploring not only the 3D game world but also the game mechanics, and, arguably, Sekiro gives more information at times than other From titles (this tool is useful against this type of enemy, follow this very explicit trail to get to the next part of the game, get this item that tells you where useful hidden items are). The way that Sekiro assists the player, I think, is done very well, obviously there are still a lot of ways they can improve on each piece of assistance. Refinement is the only thing that needs done as far as hints, tutorials, etc. goes imo.

TLDR: Don't make an easy mode, stop asking for easy modes, keep making challening games that test players' patience and persistence. Find other ways to make the game more accessible without making it less challenging.

*P.S. See also: Modern gamers' takes on making StarCraft: Brood War multiplayer easier vs more accessible.
Blunder Man doing everything thing a blunder can.
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
April 06 2019 09:23 GMT
#60
it's more like people haven't getting used to the new mechanic but once they do, as a memeyaki fan i think sekiro is the easiest soul/borne games fromsoftware's offered so far
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