Old school Brood War TLer/lurker here, I wanted to share something very special with you that I've been working on for the last 8 years.
Competitive BW and SC2 have always been very dear to my heart because of their strategic richness... the nuanced build decisions, attack timings, and counterplay. I've always wondered what it would be like if a game was focused entirely on that richness... and many years ago, working alongside some friends (mostly TLers from U Waterloo and MIT), I found out.
We made a dumb cardboard prototype of a game that was basically a "build order simulator", with very elegant, simple economic and combat mechanics, and no map. It was... oddly compelling. Way more interesting and deep than we expected. We couldn't stop playing it for months. A dumb cardboard prototype.
Fast forward through many years of slowly developing and fine-tuning the game, dropping out of my CS PhD at MIT to work on it full time, starting my own company (Lunarch Studios), and many lucky breaks (and terrible setbacks)... Now, after more than three quarters of a decade, Prismata is finally out!!
I don't want to spam you with info about the game (it's all there on the Steam page for you to read)... but one thing you should know is that it's not a collectible card game and is definitely not some pay-to-win garbage. It's a pure strategy game that aims to distill the most interesting parts of RTS, deckbuilding games, and board games down to their ultimate form.
I have many Steam keys and I'd be happy to share them with anyone here who wants one, within reason! Of course I would love it if you supported the game too, but really I just want as many people to try it as possible. PM me if you'd like a key.
Finally, here's a testimonial from one of my favourite TLers:
Prismata sets the bar out of reach for nearly every other competitive game I've played. Almost nothing comes close to achieving the level of polish, depth, and replayability. qxc
Hooray! It's been so long I forgot where I first heard about the game from. The game is a total brain drain like chess or Go, but its also very cool. Having a random set in each game gives it the addictiveness like re-queuing up for ladder or starting another card draft.
On March 09 2018 19:13 Trizz wrote:23 bucks for a card game? yikes
It's not really a card game. Think of it more like a tabletop strategy game, or a game like Civ or something like that. There are no card packs to buy, no pay-to-win.
Also, we have a huge number of features and game modes. 25 bucks includes a full single-player story campaign with cutscenes, secret missions, hidden achievements, and expert mode. Plus there are ~50 more combat training challenges (kinda like puzzles), a bot ladder, ranked and casual PvP, event modes (a bit like Hearthstone tavern brawl), replays, live observing, and custom games. I've never heard anyone complain that they didn't get their money's worth.
That said, we will be offering a much more affordable version later in Early Access with less single player content (paywall after the first chapter but full access to PvP and bot games).
This is getting some amazing reviews on Steam. Good stuff! Will it work on a shitty old laptop with integrated graphics? I have no gaming pc right now and I'm looking for something with depth I can play. Is there a demo available?
On March 10 2018 08:21 Jockmcplop wrote: This is getting some amazing reviews on Steam. Good stuff! Will it work on a shitty old laptop with integrated graphics? I have no gaming pc right now and I'm looking for something with depth I can play. Is there a demo available?
It works fine on the integrated graphics on my 2013-era laptop, but your mileage may vary.
I'll send you a Steam key if you want to try it, PM me.
(Same goes for anyone reading this, I'm happy to give out keys)
Not sure if it's my kind of game and I won't be enjoying games a for a couple of months... But it's on my watch and wish list in Steam now -- hope that counts at least as interest for Valve's side of things!
Oh shit, I remember this from when a few cardstone streamers played it like 3~? years ago.
How's development come along?
Also I must ask, how much Single-Player content can we expect? Is there anything like a campaign? Or will there be one when you're coming out of Early Access?
Sadly don't have the inclination for multiplayer these days, but I do like the concept of the game quite a bit so I'd definitely be interested in it if there's a reasonable amount of SP content.
On March 10 2018 08:21 Jockmcplop wrote: This is getting some amazing reviews on Steam. Good stuff! Will it work on a shitty old laptop with integrated graphics? I have no gaming pc right now and I'm looking for something with depth I can play. Is there a demo available?
It works fine on the integrated graphics on my 2013-era laptop, but your mileage may vary.
I'll send you a Steam key if you want to try it, PM me.
(Same goes for anyone reading this, I'm happy to give out keys)
I'd be happy to try it out before eventually buying, are those some kind of demo keys or how does this work?
On steam there are 2 options: Standard (10% off) and Founders Edition (55% off) for the same price ~21€. They seem to have the same content. Is this because Early Access? Or what is the content of the Founders Edition DLC after that? Is the complete SP campaign always included or is this later in the DLC? Not gona lie, of course interested in a free game key :-D
I watched some videos and it looks amazing. The only reason I'm not buying it right now is because I'm afraid I would get hopelessly hooked. On my summer vacation from school however...
On March 11 2018 04:07 Archile wrote: Keeping an eye out for when the multiplayer focused version comes out, seems really neat!
Multiplayer is already out! The *new* content is the single-player campaign. Multiplayer has actually been going on for quite some time during alpha and we have a robust competitive ladder with ratings, automatching, and in-game tournaments.
There is also casual 1v1, a bot ladder with 30 different bot personalities, friendly games, etc..
On March 09 2018 19:13 Trizz wrote:23 bucks for a card game? yikes
It's not really a card game. Think of it more like a tabletop strategy game, or a game like Civ or something like that. There are no card packs to buy, no pay-to-win.
Also, we have a huge number of features and game modes. 25 bucks includes a full single-player story campaign with cutscenes, secret missions, hidden achievements, and expert mode. Plus there are ~50 more combat training challenges (kinda like puzzles), a bot ladder, ranked and casual PvP, event modes (a bit like Hearthstone tavern brawl), replays, live observing, and custom games. I've never heard anyone complain that they didn't get their money's worth.
That said, we will be offering a much more affordable version later in Early Access with less single player content (paywall after the first chapter but full access to PvP and bot games).
There's something wrong with people who think 23 dollars is a lot for a game that provides hours of entertainment. How are independent developers supposed to succeed if people can't spend what they would on a pizza for a game? I feel for devs.
Don't undersell what you've built.
I've been following prismata for years and I was a part of the earlier clients. It's a really solid strategy game that most will get a good fix from. The zero hidden information isn't for everyone and it's really punishing if you are against a better opponent. It's got a pretty large following and that speaks to its' potential.
On March 09 2018 19:13 Trizz wrote:23 bucks for a card game? yikes
It's not really a card game. Think of it more like a tabletop strategy game, or a game like Civ or something like that. There are no card packs to buy, no pay-to-win.
Also, we have a huge number of features and game modes. 25 bucks includes a full single-player story campaign with cutscenes, secret missions, hidden achievements, and expert mode. Plus there are ~50 more combat training challenges (kinda like puzzles), a bot ladder, ranked and casual PvP, event modes (a bit like Hearthstone tavern brawl), replays, live observing, and custom games. I've never heard anyone complain that they didn't get their money's worth.
That said, we will be offering a much more affordable version later in Early Access with less single player content (paywall after the first chapter but full access to PvP and bot games).
There's something wrong with people who think 23 dollars is a lot for a game that provides hours of entertainment. How are independent developers supposed to succeed if people can't spend what they would on a pizza for a game? I feel for devs.
Don't undersell what you've built.
I've been following prismata for years and I was a part of the earlier clients. It's a really solid strategy game that most will get a good fix from. The zero hidden information isn't for everyone and it's really punishing if you are against a better opponent. It's got a pretty large following and that speaks to its' potential.
I'll pick up the steam version this week, too.
Agreed with the intent and message of your post and the guy who started this chain does seem like a bit of a pillock BUT...
There is one big BUT that crusaders on the internet unfortunately tend to forget about and that is: what about the tonnes of people in this world who can't afford to pay the same video game prices as Americans? Granted that dolt is Dutch so it doesn't apply to him, but I would shy away from such sweeping generalizations.
That said I'd still much rather pay for a good indie than for whatever tripe the triple ayy lmao industry regurgitates these days. Since they're not only cheaper but better too.
On March 09 2018 19:13 Trizz wrote:23 bucks for a card game? yikes
It's not really a card game. Think of it more like a tabletop strategy game, or a game like Civ or something like that. There are no card packs to buy, no pay-to-win.
Also, we have a huge number of features and game modes. 25 bucks includes a full single-player story campaign with cutscenes, secret missions, hidden achievements, and expert mode. Plus there are ~50 more combat training challenges (kinda like puzzles), a bot ladder, ranked and casual PvP, event modes (a bit like Hearthstone tavern brawl), replays, live observing, and custom games. I've never heard anyone complain that they didn't get their money's worth.
That said, we will be offering a much more affordable version later in Early Access with less single player content (paywall after the first chapter but full access to PvP and bot games).
There's something wrong with people who think 23 dollars is a lot for a game that provides hours of entertainment. How are independent developers supposed to succeed if people can't spend what they would on a pizza for a game? I feel for devs.
Don't undersell what you've built.
I've been following prismata for years and I was a part of the earlier clients. It's a really solid strategy game that most will get a good fix from. The zero hidden information isn't for everyone and it's really punishing if you are against a better opponent. It's got a pretty large following and that speaks to its' potential.
I'll pick up the steam version this week, too.
Agreed with the intent and message of your post and the guy who started this chain does seem like a bit of a pillock BUT...
There is one big BUT that crusaders on the internet unfortunately tend to forget about and that is: what about the tonnes of people in this world who can't afford to pay the same video game prices as Americans? Granted that dolt is Dutch so it doesn't apply to him, but I would shy away from such sweeping generalizations.
That said I'd still much rather pay for a good indie than for whatever tripe the triple ayy lmao industry regurgitates these days. Since they're not only cheaper but better too.
He's got to pay himself, his Canadian-based team, his marketing costs / acquisition, steam fees, paypal fees, taxes, studio costs like rent and utilities.
It costs a ton of time and money to develop a game, it's just how it goes.
On March 09 2018 19:13 Trizz wrote:23 bucks for a card game? yikes
It's not really a card game. Think of it more like a tabletop strategy game, or a game like Civ or something like that. There are no card packs to buy, no pay-to-win.
Also, we have a huge number of features and game modes. 25 bucks includes a full single-player story campaign with cutscenes, secret missions, hidden achievements, and expert mode. Plus there are ~50 more combat training challenges (kinda like puzzles), a bot ladder, ranked and casual PvP, event modes (a bit like Hearthstone tavern brawl), replays, live observing, and custom games. I've never heard anyone complain that they didn't get their money's worth.
That said, we will be offering a much more affordable version later in Early Access with less single player content (paywall after the first chapter but full access to PvP and bot games).
There's something wrong with people who think 23 dollars is a lot for a game that provides hours of entertainment. How are independent developers supposed to succeed if people can't spend what they would on a pizza for a game? I feel for devs.
Don't undersell what you've built.
I've been following prismata for years and I was a part of the earlier clients. It's a really solid strategy game that most will get a good fix from. The zero hidden information isn't for everyone and it's really punishing if you are against a better opponent. It's got a pretty large following and that speaks to its' potential.
I'll pick up the steam version this week, too.
Agreed with the intent and message of your post and the guy who started this chain does seem like a bit of a pillock BUT...
There is one big BUT that crusaders on the internet unfortunately tend to forget about and that is: what about the tonnes of people in this world who can't afford to pay the same video game prices as Americans? Granted that dolt is Dutch so it doesn't apply to him, but I would shy away from such sweeping generalizations.
That said I'd still much rather pay for a good indie than for whatever tripe the triple ayy lmao industry regurgitates these days. Since they're not only cheaper but better too.
He's got to pay himself, his Canadian-based team, his marketing costs / acquisition, steam fees, paypal fees, taxes, studio costs like rent and utilities.
It costs a ton of time and money to develop a game, it's just how it goes.
Well for digital goods like this, there is the advantage that selling licenses comes at no additional cost. All the costs that you mention, are not in any way "costs of producing additional units". Distribution/payment fees are the same percentage regardless how many units you shift, AFAIK.
Allow me to give an arbitrary, slightly more extreme example. If you're a company that makes cars, you can't just spend $3000 for every car that your factories make in, say, Germany, and then sell it for $2000 in, say, Russia. But for a piece of software it is different (whether the money-grubbing exploitative bastards at the top of the foodchain realize it or not). Once a game is done, you don't spend any extra on producing extra copies. So there is literally no harm in making your $60 game available for $10 in Russia where people maybe make $200-$300 a month and would not be able to justify spending $60 on a fucking video game no matter how good or replayable it was. These are people who might want to buy your product, but the cost is very prohibitive; however unlike cars you literally do not lose anything by making it cheap in their region. If anything it helps cut down on piracy, because they do not have the means to buy it legally, that means either they won't play it or they'll resort to illegal or gray alternatives like piracy or G2A. They won't magically conjure $60 out of their extremely tight monthly budget just because you choose to make your game cost that much.
Anyway, like I said I'm mostly with you. I know all too well how game development works, but thank you for your concern.
On March 13 2018 01:29 207aicila wrote: There is one big BUT that crusaders on the internet unfortunately tend to forget about and that is: what about the tonnes of people in this world who can't afford to pay the same video game prices as Americans? Granted that dolt is Dutch so it doesn't apply to him, but I would shy away from such sweeping generalizations.
That said I'd still much rather pay for a good indie than for whatever tripe the triple ayy lmao industry regurgitates these days. Since they're not only cheaper but better too.
We have different prices in different regions, like almost all games on Steam. Almost all video games are significantly cheaper in Russia, for example.
On March 13 2018 07:13 Dromar wrote: On Steam it says it's still in Early Access. When will it be done?
The game is *really far along* for an early access title. All the modes listed on the Steam page are already in.
The only thing we're really still adding is the single player campaign. There will be monthly updates during early access containing episodes 2, 3, 4, and 5. The plan is to be finished by the end of summer, though we might take an extra week or two here and there to polish up crucial features or address commonly requested quality-of-life improvements.
I'm intrigued. I generally like tabletop strategy/card games and Civ is one of my favourite games. However, I don't really get a feeling from how this game works from the Steam page. Is there a demo or something?
On March 13 2018 01:29 207aicila wrote: There is one big BUT that crusaders on the internet unfortunately tend to forget about and that is: what about the tonnes of people in this world who can't afford to pay the same video game prices as Americans? Granted that dolt is Dutch so it doesn't apply to him, but I would shy away from such sweeping generalizations.
That said I'd still much rather pay for a good indie than for whatever tripe the triple ayy lmao industry regurgitates these days. Since they're not only cheaper but better too.
We have different prices in different regions, like almost all games on Steam. Almost all video games are significantly cheaper in Russia, for example.
Steam can suck on a salty sausage as far as I'm concerned. I live in a country that is quite similar in terms of its economy to Russia and we're still expected to pay exactly the same as our French and German EU cousins.
Anyway I apologize for derailing the thread, as this is certainly not the place for broad pricing discussions in a general context.
On March 09 2018 19:13 Trizz wrote:23 bucks for a card game? yikes
It's not really a card game. Think of it more like a tabletop strategy game, or a game like Civ or something like that. There are no card packs to buy, no pay-to-win.
Also, we have a huge number of features and game modes. 25 bucks includes a full single-player story campaign with cutscenes, secret missions, hidden achievements, and expert mode. Plus there are ~50 more combat training challenges (kinda like puzzles), a bot ladder, ranked and casual PvP, event modes (a bit like Hearthstone tavern brawl), replays, live observing, and custom games. I've never heard anyone complain that they didn't get their money's worth.
That said, we will be offering a much more affordable version later in Early Access with less single player content (paywall after the first chapter but full access to PvP and bot games).
There's something wrong with people who think 23 dollars is a lot for a game that provides hours of entertainment. How are independent developers supposed to succeed if people can't spend what they would on a pizza for a game? I feel for devs.
Don't undersell what you've built.
I've been following prismata for years and I was a part of the earlier clients. It's a really solid strategy game that most will get a good fix from. The zero hidden information isn't for everyone and it's really punishing if you are against a better opponent. It's got a pretty large following and that speaks to its' potential.
I'll pick up the steam version this week, too.
pricing is related to quantity sold. It's not underselling to have a lower price. Earning one bucks less per game sounds bad by itself but having 100 more people playing it could net you a bigger profit.
On March 13 2018 21:45 Acrofales wrote: I'm intrigued. I generally like tabletop strategy/card games and Civ is one of my favourite games. However, I don't really get a feeling from how this game works from the Steam page. Is there a demo or something?
Bump. I'm interested, but paying 23 bucks for an early access card game without demo when there are dozens of f2p titles and the trailer tells me basically nothing about the gameplay is kinda dicy.
Any free tutorial or sth like that incoming soonish?
I got it and enjoy it so far. The single game it feels most similar to for me is chess.
So far my only gripe is that unless I'm missing something if you don't copy the replay link in the scorescreen you can't ever find your games-- there's no matchlist. It would be nice to have a matchlist so you can go back and check out stats or copy the replay link later without having to delay between games.
On March 13 2018 21:45 Acrofales wrote: I'm intrigued. I generally like tabletop strategy/card games and Civ is one of my favourite games. However, I don't really get a feeling from how this game works from the Steam page. Is there a demo or something?
Bump. I'm interested, but paying 23 bucks for an early access card game without demo when there are dozens of f2p titles and the trailer tells me basically nothing about the gameplay is kinda dicy.
Any free tutorial or sth like that incoming soonish?
Just watch youtube multiplayer or vs expert+ ai gameplay videos.
On March 13 2018 21:45 Acrofales wrote: I'm intrigued. I generally like tabletop strategy/card games and Civ is one of my favourite games. However, I don't really get a feeling from how this game works from the Steam page. Is there a demo or something?
Bump. I'm interested, but paying 23 bucks for an early access card game without demo when there are dozens of f2p titles and the trailer tells me basically nothing about the gameplay is kinda dicy.
Any free tutorial or sth like that incoming soonish?
There's lots of youtube stuff..
But it basically plays like a mash up between a SC-esque build order machine, chess, and a drafting/deckbuilder.
if you like perfect information strategy games it's one of the best original ones out there
On March 14 2018 13:12 Nightmarjoo wrote: So far my only gripe is that unless I'm missing something if you don't copy the replay link in the scorescreen you can't ever find your games-- there's no matchlist. It would be nice to have a matchlist so you can go back and check out stats or copy the replay link later without having to delay between games.
Uhhh... we have a replay browser in the game. Just go to Watch -> My Replays.
On March 14 2018 13:12 Nightmarjoo wrote: So far my only gripe is that unless I'm missing something if you don't copy the replay link in the scorescreen you can't ever find your games-- there's no matchlist. It would be nice to have a matchlist so you can go back and check out stats or copy the replay link later without having to delay between games.
Uhhh... we have a replay browser in the game. Just go to Watch -> My Replays.
I remember playing the solo browser demo mode a few years ago after seeing Kolento(?) play it. Was really interesting, kinda forgot about it though and multiplayer looked hard.. Id love a key to check it out, cant afford the game right now
On March 15 2018 03:11 -y0shi- wrote: I remember playing the solo browser demo mode a few years ago after seeing Kolento(?) play it. Was really interesting, kinda forgot about it though and multiplayer looked hard.. Id love a key to check it out, cant afford the game right now
Check your PMs.
Anyone else who's still here, I'm happy to give away free keys to TLers. Just send me a PM. I have lots more!
I'm quite interested in a key, this seems like it would be a ton of fun to play with my group of friends... but they're a pretty tough sell on new things until they've tried them. Are you from Alberta btw? I noticed the comment about the AI being done by someone who had been in one of the UofA competitions?
holy crap, this game is only out NOW? I remember it was either Day9 or Husky or maybe even TB showcasing this game in its early initial stages years ago.
On March 16 2018 04:22 Drow wrote: Are you from Alberta btw? I noticed the comment about the AI being done by someone who had been in one of the UofA competitions?
Our AI developer was Dave Churchill, who wrote UAlbertaBot and won the 2013 StarCraft AI competition. He's now a prof at Memorial University in Newfoundland. I've never live in Alberta but one of our other devs (David Rhee) is from Edmonton.
On March 16 2018 12:23 RaiKageRyu wrote: holy crap, this game is only out NOW? I remember it was either Day9 or Husky or maybe even TB showcasing this game in its early initial stages years ago.
As far as I know, none of these guys have ever streamed or showcased Prismata. It was mostly Hearthstone guys during our Kickstarter. But I would love for them to check it out!
Played the campaign for 45 minutes. Very sleek/fast interface and seems like it will be fun later, but the build up in difficulty is a bit too slow for anyone who has played a card game before. What's the best way for me to accelerate the process?
Edit: Alright, have hit the 7 hour mark. The game is fresh and fun, making you think in a new way. A card game with no RNG or deck-building, which still feels tense, is an impressive achievement. I'm also excited to see where it goes in the future - the devs seem smart and on point.
That said - it has two major problems, which for me will decide if I play in the future.
1: Once you start losing, it feels impossible to turn things around. Now maybe this changes at the higher levels, but right now someone makes 1 error mid-game, and it compounds and they die. If anyone has tips on how to stage comebacks in this game, I'd like to know.
2: The music and art are generic and weak. Music I can just turn off, but the art style, while passable for the base units, looks super messy because everyone has skins from the get go. Maybe they should be disabled by default?
Overall, very interesting game, and I'll be dipping in and out over the early access period. Oh, and the current campaign, while not anything revolutionary, has some fun writing which actually made me laugh out loud - nice one.
On March 21 2018 23:48 Tal wrote: Once you start losing, it feels impossible to turn things around.
This is intentional. It's sorta like in chess... if you lose your queen, you should probably just resign. We deliberately avoid having "board sweepers" or similar mechanics to pull people back into the game from a lost position. It keeps the struggle genuine, but more importantly, it also prevents those situations which are common in games like League where you get dragged through the mud for 30+ minutes where you have maybe only 2% of a chance to win, but don't want to quit and give up that 2%.
That said, it's often really hard to tell who's ahead in many Prismata games, especially in asymmetric positions and when units with long build times are involved!
On March 21 2018 23:48 Tal wrote: the art style, while passable for the base units, looks super messy because everyone has skins from the get go. Maybe they should be disabled by default?
Where are you encountering a lot of skins as a new player? On ranked you can see them, and some of the casual bots use them. Should we remove them from the casual match bots?
That's so expensive for a game reliant on multiplayer matchmaking. It looks like just my type of game but without trying it to see how active it is, I can't buy it.
On March 27 2018 06:14 kaos00 wrote: That's so expensive for a game reliant on multiplayer matchmaking. It looks like just my type of game but without trying it to see how active it is, I can't buy it.
PM me and I'll send you a free key.
The long term plan is for f2p multiplayer and premium single player, we're just doing paid-only early access right now but I'm happy to give away free keys for TLers. ^_^
I saw your post and I would be happy if you could send me a key, and if possible, another key for my brother.
We used to play Hearthstone, and I switched to Gwent because I got tired of the direction HS is going. I still kinda like Gwent (kinda disappointed atm but I still have hopes for it) but I would like to check Prismata out, it is the sort of game we would be interested in, given the design philosophy Prismata appears to have.
On March 21 2018 23:48 Tal wrote: Once you start losing, it feels impossible to turn things around.
This is intentional. It's sorta like in chess... if you lose your queen, you should probably just resign. We deliberately avoid having "board sweepers" or similar mechanics to pull people back into the game from a lost position. It keeps the struggle genuine, but more importantly, it also prevents those situations which are common in games like League where you get dragged through the mud for 30+ minutes where you have maybe only 2% of a chance to win, but don't want to quit and give up that 2%.
That said, it's often really hard to tell who's ahead in many Prismata games, especially in asymmetric positions and when units with long build times are involved!
Good to know it's intentional, though in Chess you can lose several pawns or pieces, but still have a fair chance if you keep the position complex and avoid trading off pieces too quickly. All my favourite League (or Starcraft) games were the ones with the great comeback, so maybe I'm not the right target here.
Where are you encountering a lot of skins as a new player? On ranked you can see them, and some of the casual bots use them. Should we remove them from the casual match bots?
you mentioned dropping out of MIT(!) to pursue your dream idea. I'm going to assume you were quite young at that point, probably between 20 and 25. How did you go about making ends meet once you took the decision to commit 100% to prismata?
I played it for a few days, it is very hard for human players to play this game perfectly. It's a great game for people who like to do a lot of mental math. I'd imagine you can probably design an AI that is unbeatable in the near future.
This game has perfect information with no RNG, which means each game has an optimal sequence resulting in guaranteed victory for one player. With enough time you can probably solve it just like chess. In the long run, the lack of psychological aspects of the game (i.e. bluffing with imperfect information, playing around certain things, etc.) might end up hurting the game's longevity.
you mentioned dropping out of MIT(!) to pursue your dream idea. I'm going to assume you were quite young at that point, probably between 20 and 25. How did you go about making ends meet once you took the decision to commit 100% to prismata?
It was 90% personal savings (from working research assistant and co-op jobs), and 10% poker money. I lived in Waterloo, Ontario with roommates and kept my expenses to a minimum. Have not had a paycheque since summer 2013 but I live very inexpensively, don't own a car, etc.. When you do these types of projects, it's very important that your own personal runway is as long as possible, so you have to cut all the unnecessary expenses from your life. But I had kinda already been living that way for years (hence the savings). I started with maybe 85k in the bank, of which 40k was invested into Lunarch and the rest I lived off of for 4.5 years (and still have quite a bit left!)
I have to say Elyot, congratulations on making it to release! As a sw dev myself, I don't think I could keep motivated for such a long time. Great that you seemed to have kept the project your own for all that time too. Maybe it's interesting to tell your story (like in Indie Game: The Movie) to some kind of media?
On April 01 2018 01:07 Glacierz wrote: This game has perfect information with no RNG, which means each game has an optimal sequence resulting in guaranteed victory for one player. With enough time you can probably solve it just like chess. In the long run, the lack of psychological aspects of the game (i.e. bluffing with imperfect information, playing around certain things, etc.) might end up hurting the game's longevity.
We were worried about the same thing, but we've had alpha players who've had 3+ years of experience with the game and feel like they're still constantly improving and learning new strategies. To me it feels a bit like the game of go where there's just more and more insights to discover and as you get better at the game, it just expands in breadth and complexity even more. I do think there's a limit, and of course we can also introduce new units and mechanics as needed, but the game itself seems to have a ton of longevity even without us doing so.
On April 01 2018 12:22 aseq wrote: I have to say Elyot, congratulations on making it to release! As a sw dev myself, I don't think I could keep motivated for such a long time. Great that you seemed to have kept the project your own for all that time too. Maybe it's interesting to tell your story (like in Indie Game: The Movie) to some kind of media?
If you know any media who might be interested in that sorta thing, let me know!
We thought of just making a documentary ourselves. Might do it sometime when I have a few spare cycles.
On April 01 2018 16:55 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Gratz on finishing the game!
Thanks, but it's not finished yet, just in early access! We're still working on more single player content. Next chapter is coming out later this month.
The game looks super interesting! Watching the Overlord tournament... not exactly sure what's going on but just the level of analysis involved is fantastic.
you mentioned dropping out of MIT(!) to pursue your dream idea. I'm going to assume you were quite young at that point, probably between 20 and 25. How did you go about making ends meet once you took the decision to commit 100% to prismata?
It was 90% personal savings (from working research assistant and co-op jobs), and 10% poker money. I lived in Waterloo, Ontario with roommates and kept my expenses to a minimum. Have not had a paycheque since summer 2013 but I live very inexpensively, don't own a car, etc.. When you do these types of projects, it's very important that your own personal runway is as long as possible, so you have to cut all the unnecessary expenses from your life. But I had kinda already been living that way for years (hence the savings). I started with maybe 85k in the bank, of which 40k was invested into Lunarch and the rest I lived off of for 4.5 years (and still have quite a bit left!)
Impressive insight, you're truly an example to me. Best of luck with Prismata.
Picked this up last week. Really excellent game and the build order simulation (as an oversimplification) is very apt. If sneaking an extra drone is your jam, this is a game for you! ^^
you mentioned dropping out of MIT(!) to pursue your dream idea. I'm going to assume you were quite young at that point, probably between 20 and 25. How did you go about making ends meet once you took the decision to commit 100% to prismata?
It was 90% personal savings (from working research assistant and co-op jobs), and 10% poker money. I lived in Waterloo, Ontario with roommates and kept my expenses to a minimum. Have not had a paycheque since summer 2013 but I live very inexpensively, don't own a car, etc.. When you do these types of projects, it's very important that your own personal runway is as long as possible, so you have to cut all the unnecessary expenses from your life. But I had kinda already been living that way for years (hence the savings). I started with maybe 85k in the bank, of which 40k was invested into Lunarch and the rest I lived off of for 4.5 years (and still have quite a bit left!)
Impressive insight, you're truly an example to me. Best of luck with Prismata.
On April 09 2018 17:05 JieXian wrote:Wow! That dedication....
Honestly, a lot of it was just being really strongly addicted to our own game. We liked the game so much that we kept working on it, and people kept encouraging us. If the early playtests hadn't captivated us so strongly, we probably wouldn't have pursued the game as far as we did.
It really is a great game. I decided to buy early access on steam, and now I have already played 50 hours. After a break last week I started to dream about Prismata, and when I started playing again I went on a 7 game win streak. It is really interesting how much there is to learn. The game flow, timings, build orders, set reading.
For example I realized that a set would lead to a high econ game, where the end game would be a base race after all defenses where exhausted, and I accordingly build only breach proof attackers. And that's what happened, and I won the game after 30 something turns based on a decision I made in turn 1. I was so proud of myself, even though I expect that for experts this would have been obvious.
I can only recommend anyone here to try out the game, it is a lot of fun.
So, in a few days after getting a key (thanks again), i have now finished all of the puzzles and campaign thingies which are currently available. This took me a total of 22 hours. I do not know if i will keep playing after this, since i am not that much into competitive multiplayer nowadays.
The game is a lot of fun, and i liked how it makes me think. A lot of the puzzles resulted in going back again and again to find some small spot to optimize, and seeing how that small change turned barely failing into barely making it was fun.
One thing i highly dislike however is how much this game feels like a free to play game. There is the whole premium currency lootbox thing to gain skins, which would be fine if the game were actually free to play, but if you pay 23 bucks for it, the system feels a bit cynical to me. Since i got a key in this thread for free, i personally do not mind. But if i had just paid full price for this game, i would not be that forgiving. I really dislike this idea of milking your customers for as much as humanly possible. Sell the game, or have a free to play monetisation scheme in place. Don't do both.
On April 14 2018 21:59 Sirion wrote: It really is a great game. I decided to buy early access on steam, and now I have already played 50 hours. After a break last week I started to dream about Prismata, and when I started playing again I went on a 7 game win streak. It is really interesting how much there is to learn. The game flow, timings, build orders, set reading.
For example I realized that a set would lead to a high econ game, where the end game would be a base race after all defenses where exhausted, and I accordingly build only breach proof attackers. And that's what happened, and I won the game after 30 something turns based on a decision I made in turn 1. I was so proud of myself, even though I expect that for experts this would have been obvious.
I can only recommend anyone here to try out the game, it is a lot of fun.
Nice, I had not thought of that before.
On April 15 2018 22:39 Simberto wrote: So, in a few days after getting a key (thanks again), i have now finished all of the puzzles and campaign thingies which are currently available. This took me a total of 22 hours. I do not know if i will keep playing after this, since i am not that much into competitive multiplayer nowadays.
The game is a lot of fun, and i liked how it makes me think. A lot of the puzzles resulted in going back again and again to find some small spot to optimize, and seeing how that small change turned barely failing into barely making it was fun.
One thing i highly dislike however is how much this game feels like a free to play game. There is the whole premium currency lootbox thing to gain skins, which would be fine if the game were actually free to play, but if you pay 23 bucks for it, the system feels a bit cynical to me. Since i got a key in this thread for free, i personally do not mind. But if i had just paid full price for this game, i would not be that forgiving. I really dislike this idea of milking your customers for as much as humanly possible. Sell the game, or have a free to play monetisation scheme in place. Don't do both.
1) Yes the skins are really difficult to get without spending money in Prismata (I feel), But the model of selling the game and making more for skins is also done in many other popular games and I really don't mind that, let them make money from whales if the whales wish to spend money. They are just skins, it does not give anyone an advantage like P2W purchases.
2) I read that they actually plan to make it F2P anyway.
On April 15 2018 22:39 Simberto wrote: One thing i highly dislike however is how much this game feels like a free to play game. There is the whole premium currency lootbox thing to gain skins, which would be fine if the game were actually free to play, but if you pay 23 bucks for it, the system feels a bit cynical to me. Since i got a key in this thread for free, i personally do not mind. But if i had just paid full price for this game, i would not be that forgiving. I really dislike this idea of milking your customers for as much as humanly possible. Sell the game, or have a free to play monetisation scheme in place. Don't do both.
Don't worry, all multiplayer modes will be free.
Beyond chapter 1, the single-player campaign is premium but it does not contain any microtransactions.
Might check this out this weekend or next week when I have some time. Checked it on steam and I have no idea what to think about how the game actually plays but the concept appeals very much.
On April 17 2018 19:05 Nyovne wrote: Might check this out this weekend or next week when I have some time. Checked it on steam and I have no idea what to think about how the game actually plays but the concept appeals very much.
PM me if you would like a key, I'm very happy to give them to TLers. You can upgrade to a Founder's Edition later if you like the game.
Anything happening in prismata right now? Ive been away for a while and over one night game went from 50 ppl playing to 400+ with record 1200.The only thing i see on reddit is Golden Cup.
On May 05 2018 03:06 alone wrote: Anything happening in prismata right now? Ive been away for a while and over one night game went from 50 ppl playing to 400+ with record 1200.The only thing i see on reddit is Golden Cup.
On May 12 2018 07:52 Garbels wrote: Right now i'm stuck on the last masterchallange 'Extremely unfair Challenge' so it seem I have a lot to learn still.
The title of that level does not lie! It's stupidly difficult. I kinda feel bad for including it.
Have you tried the Expert Challenges in campaign mode? Some of those are pretty brutal as well (especially the bonus missions).
I bought this game a few days ago before seeing this post.
I want to say congratulations on the game, I was impressed by how many features were implemented (even spectating the matches of the best players) and how the whole interface and presentation is very solid.
I love card games and I love RTS, so when I saw this on Steam I had to buy it instantly... although I hate to say this but... I got tired of it after 2 hours or so. Maybe I missed something, so please take this comment with a grain of salt, but even in more advanced games that I've spectated, the core gameplay seems to lack depth. The decision making process ends up about optimizing your build order (when to switch from economy to offensive units), but I saw little to no strategy per se.
Here's a few humble suggestions :
1- More hidden informations could add room for so many surprises and mindgames - Some kind of Fog of War mechanic would be great imo. Maybe each side could be divided into 4 sections, both players get to choose in which section they put their units, and each section is hidden and cannot be attacked unless it's scouted. - Or maybe players could hide what they're doing by paying for some tech.
2- It would be neat to have some limited resources that the players would fight over. - Instead of spending your attack points on the opponent, what if you could choose to attack neutral units that would grant all sorts of bonuses upon death? They could replenish some unit reserve, add Money for next turn, or join your side and act as a new unit. - Same idea but with money. What if there was a Neutral market mechanic where both players can instead spend their money on exclusive Mercenaries and Buildings? It could act as a drafting mechanic, so there's only 3 items for sale every turn, and after they're bought, they're gone, and the market replenishes every turn. - Maybe you'd need to build a specific building to have access to the market.
Thank you for reading this, I hope some ideas maybe some sense at least and best of luck with the project!
On May 14 2018 16:48 lepape wrote: I love card games and I love RTS, so when I saw this on Steam I had to buy it instantly... although I hate to say this but... I got tired of it after 2 hours or so. Maybe I missed something, so please take this comment with a grain of salt, but even in more advanced games that I've spectated, the core gameplay seems to lack depth. The decision making process ends up about optimizing your build order (when to switch from economy to offensive units), but I saw little to no strategy per se.
This is a comment that I find a bit perplexing, since a common opinion among our players is that strategies seem very complex and set-reading is something that even good players struggle with. Decisions like economy size, tech choices, etc. are very tricky, and mechanics like chill, frontline, and absorb denial create a lot of situations where the optimal play is far from obvious. We've had alpha players who've been laddering for 3 years and insist they're still learning new things and still improving!
What I'm most curious about is what caused you to come to that opinion... I mean obviously it's hard to really judge a complex strategy game after only 2 hours, but what about the game gave you the impression that it wasn't deep? We know that a lot of the more complex/tricky units are only unlocked at a higher level; were you mostly watching streams/top live games and just forming your own opinion based on what you saw?
On May 12 2018 07:52 Garbels wrote: Right now i'm stuck on the last masterchallange 'Extremely unfair Challenge' so it seem I have a lot to learn still.
The title of that level does not lie! It's stupidly difficult. I kinda feel bad for including it.
Have you tried the Expert Challenges in campaign mode? Some of those are pretty brutal as well (especially the bonus missions).
I completed the 'Extremely unfair Challenge' after sleeping on it once more. Similarily to that I had to take a longer break after banging my head against the 'Amporilla Challenge' for a while only to beat it really quick after the break.
Did all the expert challanges but the bonus mission of Ep1 today. 'Scap an Scrutiny' was a strange one that took me way to long and the bonus one looks like it will keep me a while.
The puzzles are very captivating and I often find myself doing them for way to long when I should be doing something else!
Started playing a few days ago, I'm about 30 hours in, and I'm really liking it. A few notes:
1. The music and sound effects in this game are top notch. Single player campaign is really well polished too.
2. Love spectating and other QoL features.
3. Just played the Blitz event tonight and it was pretty fun, though I'm definitely not familiar enough with the cards to play at all well at that speed. (One game I lost simply because I hadn't had time to see that Polywall was in the unit pool, and I was building regular Walls instead.)
4. "Tickets" are not explained at all as far as I can tell. I had to read a couple google search results to figure out the general idea. I still don't fully understand them.
5. My experience leveling up and unlocking new blueprints had me playing games with chill and frontline units long before I got to their introductions in the combat training / puzzles. Are players intended to complete all the combat training before queueing for casual games? Maybe make more levels (beyond 40) and introduce the blueprints more slowly. I understood the chill mechanic easily enough because it's described in parentheses on every chill unit, but I had no idea how frontline units would actually function, despite the description on the unit.
6. Regarding the depth of the game, I can see that it certainly has some depth to it. I've played quite a bit of Dominion in my day so I'm familiar with the "find the best strategy with a unique set of cards" concept. I like how this game incorporates a lot more of "change your game plan based on what your opponent is doing" than Dominion does.
7. However, one thing I've realized that seems pretty unintuitive and was unexpected was this: it seems like it's better to rush out attack power than it is to drone up. In nearly every game I've spectated and played, the first player to start building attack units wins. The player who builds more drones almost always loses. This was very unexpected, as coming from Brood War Zerg my general game plan has always been "hold off with as little as needed, then overwhelm them with macro." That simply doesn't exist in this game as far as I can tell.
The difference in the number of drones needed to go from being able to build 2 attacking units a turn to 3 is large enough (in most unit pools [again, in my limited experience]) that it's not worth droning up past whatever you need to pump out 2 attackers per turn. If my opponent drones up further, they will be put in a position where they need to build defenses in order to not lose the drones they just made. This starts an inevitable cycle of
I build attack units they build defenses I build more attack units and destroy their defenses they build more defenses I build more attack units and destroy their defenses ... Eventually my attack value is larger than they can defend and I win.
Their defenses die, but my attacking units attack forever. Strategically, the game seems like an arms race (incidentally, Arms Race seems quite strong).
That said, there are a lot of interesting variations on this, such as units that hit every 2nd or 3rd turn, one time hits like Pixies / Gauss Charges / Grenade Mech, or units that cost attack value now in order for great value later. Threatening lots of damage is often better than actually dealing it, because it forces the opponent on the defensive much earlier and more efficiently.
Anyway it was just unexpected / unintuitive. I was expecting to outmacro people at first. Of course I might be completely wrong about this, because when I watch better players play, they tend to build a ton of drones. Which is really confusing, because when spectating, I can often predict who will lose based on who built more drones.
8. I really like the way the first player / second player was balanced. After 30+ hours, and even considering point (7) above where I feel that attacking first is the best strategy, I'm not sure whether going first or second is better. The extra drone, and different gold counts at early turns, means that the best strategy for the first and second player may often be very different, which is a really great quality.
Are you willing / able to share data on winrate going first vs going second, winrate of the player who builds the first attacking unit, average max income of winner vs loser, etc?
edit: This got kinda long. Anyway, great game, highly recommended, keep up the great work!
On May 15 2018 14:25 Dromar wrote: Are you willing / able to share data on winrate going first vs going second, winrate of the player who builds the first attacking unit, average max income of winner vs loser, etc?
p1/p2 balance is within about 1.5% of perfectly balanced, with a slight edge to P2. It varies a bit with which units are available, some units give a slight edge to p1 and others to p2, but usually only by a percent or two even in the worst cases. In the past we've had to nerf units because they were too strong for one player or another, like years ago in pre-alpha we had a version of scorchilla that was 60% p2-favoured because there was this insane rush that worked out perfectly for player 2 and was hard to counter. But we're much better at making balanced units now.
In terms of building the first attacker, it depends a lot on the size of the biggest absorbing defender. In sets with Energy Matrix or Centurion, you might want 20+ Drones. If you open DD/DDA into Tarsiers in those types of sets, your opponent is going to defend your rush and then smash you with a superior economy, because your first 4 Tarsiers do nothing against their Energy Matrix.
It's part of a *very* involved series of game design articles I wrote on Prismata. More stupidly theoretical than necessary. But might be a fun read. ^_^
I am sure you have done WAY more balance testing than I could ever imagine compared to my ~400 games played, but I was wondering have you ever thought about making P2 have 6 drones + 1 doomed drone at the start instead of 7 drones.
This gives P2 a 4 gold advantage for being 2nd instead of X gold advantage.
I am not sure if this would be too punishing and swing things back to p1 favor but as a newer player, P2 has always felt significantly stronger than p1, and my P2 win rate looking at stats shows that for me at least I grasp how to play as p2 a lot better.
On May 17 2018 09:36 Danxor wrote: I am sure you have done WAY more balance testing than I could ever imagine compared to my ~400 games played, but I was wondering have you ever thought about making P2 have 6 drones + 1 doomed drone at the start instead of 7 drones.
This gives P2 a 4 gold advantage for being 2nd instead of X gold advantage.
I am not sure if this would be too punishing and swing things back to p1 favor but as a newer player, P2 has always felt significantly stronger than p1, and my P2 win rate looking at stats shows that for me at least I grasp how to play as p2 a lot better.
That would be way too much. The correct adjustment amount is probably something like "player 1 should get 6.07 Drones and player 2 should get 7 Drones". A Doomed Drone is worth probably 75% of a Drone, so it's likely about 3-4 times more imbalanced than the current setup.
The 6.07 comes from the ratio 6.07/7 = 7/8.07, meaning that the "half-turn advantage" of p2 over p1 is the same as the half-turn advantage of p1 over p2 after going DD on the first turn.
Man, this game is awesome! Banged 20+ hours on it already and still counting. I played all single player modes a bit, don't understand much in a game yet, but won a weaker master bot on my 1st attempt ^_^
A couple of notable things: 1. I love how you balanced "white" and "black" in this game by adding a drone to black, and for the first turn or two they simply reverse their positions (with 1 extra drone for both), I think it's a brilliant idea: simple and elegant beyond words.
2. Puzzles and expert challenges are amazing. I've only managed to do 4 expert challenges in 1st campaign chapter so far (and I spent a lot of time on them). I deem myself like sort of a smart dude, but, man, these challenges introduced me to reality.
3. So far I like puzzles and campaign more than regular games (balanced for 2 human players), because of their variety. It's a little bit difficult to gauge all variety in multiplayer/bot games brought by random cards for a newbie, and so far all of my games there were very similar. Maybe I should check out multiplayer to be introduced to this variety by my opponents and get my backside kicked Puzzles on another hand are much more varying even on surface.
Eagerly waiting for another campaign chapter while I'm bashing my head against the wall trying to solve another expert challenge This stuff is addictive. Props to the developers for making this great piece of art,
We will eventually be transitioning fully to free-to-play, this is just a test weekend if you want to get in early. You can keep the game when the weekend ends.
The free version includes Campaign episode 1, plus 50 combat training missions and all the multiplayer modes (with no pay-to-win, only pay-to-skin).
Hi there! I played it due to your post and I have to say it exceeded expectations by far with a solid single player. Haven't played something quite like it before.
It's a surprising mix of turn-based strategy gone count-crazy: Take the interface of classic strategy games, refine it, add the best bits and pieces of tactical RPGs and modern card games.. types of games I usually get bored of quickly.. To make it short if space plants vs. zombies and non-fantasy Hearthstone had a beautiful baby that loved throwing puzzles around, Prismata would be it (for Hearthstone especially the memorable moments of the single-player) . Not sure why, but it tickled my brain the way the combat in Banner Saga (or Into The Breach) did, as well as the classic XCom games and late-game chess.. probably for the frustration tolerance!
This kind of monetising (cosmetics and taunts/emotes only) is also laudable.
Being in early-access(!), a few suggestions and unreasonable opinions: 1) The game looks improved for mobile or, likely, tablets. On desktop some of the big text/bold fonts stand out so much it's at a the point of 'in-your-faceness' sometimes. Unit design is very strong (improved for clarity a tad too much maybe), but doesn't seem streamlined in entirety, like the final finish comes from more than one design (red and blue icons as well as the energy lightning bolt for example). 2) Opening the crystal shards to find items/rewards inside?, doesn't make much sense the way it is. A space-saloon aesthetic, coming from the campaign, was what I had expected at first (or opening coffers delivered by otherwordly drones). Also it's unintuitive what infusions do, other than sparkle? Change the colour of emotes? 3) Also in the campaign, how/where the robots physically fight never appears on screen (how an onlooker would see what the fight would look like/the outcome is or how the resources and units are delivered into the battlefield). This seems like a blunder, omitting a "cool, so this is how I steer and command" moment that could also be a frame for the PvP side of the game. 4) Lost is what I feel! Sometimes Prismata makes you feel helpless/frustrated like an expert chess player beating you without you even seeing it coming. Tough elite challenges, tough AI bots, it's easy to go on losing streaks, while one doesn't even always receive XP for losing. Might be ok for veterans but unappealing for newcomers. Also there's an overwhelming amount of blueprints. Maybe use hints to couple the elite missions and new blueprints to relevant single player challenges!? At least for some of the blueprints unlock an individual challenge using that unit, by a "play with this blueprint now" button!? 5) Googly-eyed skins are fun, but see 1)
PS: Thanks for hotkeys, that's what makes it really awesome to play for me. (lvl2 challenge "Fragility in Defense" can be solved just by hitting the recommend action with Q =P )
I like the new units but the master bot seems weaker; even without them in the set. Beat my previous highscore, from more than a month ago, two times in the last two days.
Tried to get some of my friends playing, but failed. Mostly because of the graphics/the way it looks. 'Interface looks old' was also one of the first things I wrote down in my notes about prismata but that perception vanished after a few games. I very much like the way the game looks now. Very clean and efficient.
The free-to-play version has full support for competitive multiplayer with no pay-to-win or card packs. Also has over 60 single player scenarios, missions, and puzzles.
You can upgrade to the premium version to play the full single-player campaign and get a boost on your cosmetic rewards (which don't affect gameplay).
EPT
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