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France9034 Posts
As this is getting bigger, I'll centralize everything in this separate post.
Timeline:
This affair started with a leak published on Slingshot Esports by DeKay
The Professional Esports Association plans to outlaw its Counter-Strike teams from playing in the next season of the ESL Pro League, according to multiple sources. PEA plans to follow through with this decision in spite of dissent from a handful of players on teams within the association.
[...]
A few days later, SirScoots posted the following tweet:
using the hashtag that is now associated with all this: #playersrights. You can find that letter here. It's bearing the signature of all 5 players of 5 different teams involved in PEA:
Cloud9
CLG
Immortals
Team Liquid
Team SoloMid
This letter intends to bring the light on the issue of exclusivity and the fact that PEA's motives seemed to have changed between its inceptions and the declared motives at that times, and the very recent developments.
Selected extract:
We expressed our disagreement to the PEA and our owners, and pointed out that what was now happening contradicted just about everything they had said back in September, but they still stuck to their position. As Jason Katz, who had described himself a few months before as a trustworthy and unbiased party, told one group of players: “Things change.”
This letter has been relayed directly on twitter by some of the players (e.g. n0thing)
+ Show Spoiler +
There's been a couple of reactions to that letter so far.
C9Jake's reaction
I always have and will continue to do the best for my players. That letter was written by someone who has always gone out of his way to make teams look bad. When you have the whole story I'm sure you will feel better about the situation. I'm working to write a response now.
ReDeYe Twitlonger on the matter
With all of that said, the first issue for me is perception. When you launch something called the Professional Esports Association (PEA) but actually you are going to run it like a league rather than an association for teams and players to protect their interests, you are already promising something you can't deliver. Even if this is a perception issue, it's one which is hard to overcome, just look at WESA and they aren't even running a league.
A bit more complex, there's been a recent development involving TSM, its owner, Sean Gares, and the team:
+ Show Spoiler +
Long story short, Reginald blames Sean for damaging TSM's brand, manipulating the players into signing a letter they didn't read, and misleading them on that issue. Sean claims Reginald's fault lies in not disclaiming outright what the PEA would entice for the players. Finally, Relyks released a statement from all the players but Sean, stating that even though they didn't read the letter, they still all agreed to sign it anyway because they agreed in a call with SirScoots about the content and the tone it would have.
An important extract in my opinion:
How Andy felt blindsided by the letter once it was published on Reddit, we felt the same way upon learning of the PEA's plans. We felt pressured to take action and make a response, which we did in uniting in the player letter. We just wanted to write this to clarify any misconceptions and bring everything into the light. There are two sides to every story, and we just wanted to make sure our narrative wasn't skewed and was clear.
Then, Sean Gares reply to Reginald:
+ Show Spoiler +
Aside from that, Frederik Byskov (Founding partner of Astralis) reacted as well on the matter:
+ Show Spoiler +
I'll try to keep this post updated as this continues to develop. If I forgot something, please feel free to bring this up here.
UPDATE:
A tweet I missed from Hazed:
+ Show Spoiler +
UPDATE 2:
PEA has published an open letter in response to the players' letter, through Noah Winston, CEO of Immortals and PEA Player Relations Committee Member.
+ Show Spoiler +
UPDATE 3:
Sir Scoots reaction to PEA's letter:
+ Show Spoiler +
UPDATE 4:
WESA has entered the discussion:
+ Show Spoiler +
UPDATE 5:
DeKay published a Q&A with PEA officials, that you can read here.
UPDATE 6:
A reaction from Noah Winston addressing the points raised by SirScoots after PEA's statement.
+ Show Spoiler +
UPDATE 7:
After a quieter period, things have started moving again on that topic. First, with a report from DeKay that PEA players voted to play in EPL, and thus effectively ending the project of an exclusive North American league ran by PEA for now.
SirScoots' tweet on the topic:
+ Show Spoiler +
UPDATE 8
SirScoots has published an article in which he develops on why the players chose EPL over PEA:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Expected from C9, TSM or CLG.
I have no idea what they give to complexity to buy them into.
And the transformation for Liquid.pro to this... really sad.
But whoever wanted to give the power to someone like Jason Katz (CGS desaster, Azubu), must be either ignorant or just an idiot. He does not bring good, his attitude to fuck over other people to achieve his goals (which he cant achieve because of fucking over people) ends bad for all.
Then again, PEA promisses money to players/orgs they dont have. They say they can get so much money from sponsors for their league, but at the moment they do not have this money. It is very likely that nobody watches their league, sponsors turn down thanks to Jason Katz and the situation and then from the big figs they promis, not alot is really earned.
In the end valve things "okay this shit is enough" and forces something into the eco system. And I think this is much worse then every PEA, WESA, ESForce or the Astralismoneygivers do. Because Riot (where Jason Katz tried alot of shit prior to LCS Season 1 and failed there again) shows how bad this can be.
So man, PEA, WESA and else, get your shit togeather, you can build unified leagues togeather without shitting each one over and not saying "You have to leave US. fully and all you get is our WESA/PEA 8 Teams global tournament for it)".
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Too Juicy. The Esports 'cold war', as Richard Lewis called it, has started!
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Richard Lewis did a great job summing up the situation and involved parties in his Cold War video. Although the entire information is spread across a couple videos and probably multiple hours long, it is worth watching if you're interested in the situation.
To me the whole thing seems to be somewhat similar to the AFL vs NFL dispute and merger of the early 60ies. It even has the aggressive businessmen running the show on both sides. The player poaching and exploding salaries don't seem that far off. What differentiates the PEA vs WESA conflict, is the broad availability of public platforms for all involved parties.
Not only is it easier for players and managers to get their opinions out to the masses with platforms like twitter and youtube, it makes information much easier to come by for everyone. Personally I am very excited about the ensuing situation since my only stake is that I like to watch counter strike. Will the WESA and PEA merge as the American Football Leagues did? Will one absorb the other? What unexpected controversy will we get out of this one?
I don't know. But I got my front row seats reserved (thanks internet) and my popcorn out!
Regarding Sean Gares, the first casualty of this budding crisis, it's sad that TSM ownership had to cower before the mighty pea this way. That being said the status Gares holds in the NA scene and his proven talent as IGL aswell as his acumen for preparing a team for a match will get him back into the action (outside of a WESA team no doubt) in no time. That is if he is even interested in continuing to play the game.
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Sad to see how low Liquid has fallen since their merger with curse.
How they manage LoL team where players picked and dropped all the time, dropping their HotS team with nothing but a Facebook announcement, this PEA fiasco, and the biggest offence of all, picking up AZK for their OW team.
Glad I no longer support Liquid team for quite some time now.
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this is all so juicy, but also, sgares is kind of washed up jus sayin
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On December 24 2016 01:52 HugoBallzak wrote:
this is all so juicy, but also, sgares is kind of washed up jus sayin
he's still a good igl, no?
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France9034 Posts
Gosh PEA's answer is a joke.
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On December 24 2016 01:52 HugoBallzak wrote:
this is all so juicy, but also, sgares is kind of washed up jus sayin
And this is relevant to the discussion how exactly?
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France9034 Posts
On December 24 2016 03:40 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2016 01:52 HugoBallzak wrote:
this is all so juicy, but also, sgares is kind of washed up jus sayin And this is relevant to the discussion how exactly?
This isn't, let's not feed the troll.
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The answer of PEA is fun:
"We looked for a compromise with ESL, but they refused to get the fuck out of NA for nothing, so its their fault the compromise failed."
"There is no exclusivity, players can choose between PEA or EPL, they just cant play both. Ah yeah, and if they play EPL, we leave CS:GO and their jobs are gone".
Gosh, Jason Katz never fails to show why you should never do buisnes with him or sign him to do something for you. He ruins your product, your brand and then fucks out and does it to the next one he finds.
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Why anyone would choose and trust someone from Azubu to do anything will never make any sense to me.
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On December 24 2016 05:54 jmbthirteen wrote:
Why anyone would choose and trust someone from Azubu to do anything will never make any sense to me.
Its worse, he is from CGS and Azubu.
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France9034 Posts
His time at Riot hasn't gotten him praises as well apparently.
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It's weird that their idea of a reasonable compromise includes staying the fuck out of an entire continent.
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Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet.
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This led me to do some thinking on politics and diplomacy. I imagine it like this: ESL in Europe found WESA, nobody really knows what their goal is apart from maybe have these teams as set in EPL somehow in NA the big COD and LoL brands are like: "Hey, we were left out. Let's do the same thing here with our fat brands and big reach, let's make America great again!" (Whoops, take that with a pinch of salt). And do they proceed to do business the way they know it: hardcore capitalism, oligopolism, doing everything you can to kill your competitors. Only that they reached far beyond what WESA was trying to do and with that and not totally obedient players nowho lost the war of public opinion. Which is not not only relevant for the success of their planned league in viewership but also sponsorship. And rather than admit they went too far they tried to paint it as "well the players didn't really know what they were signing" and after that "well we are not going to do the league anyway now so okthxbye."
I just don't get how they went from 10000% to 1%
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France9034 Posts
On December 25 2016 07:53 schaf wrote:
I just don't get how they went from 10000% to 1%
First of all, maybe Katz wasn't the best choice for that kind of project. Secondly, I think a lot in this comes down to miscommunication. I think if the players were more involved in the process, and knew exactly what this enticed, all this fuss might have been avoided. Because they could've warned early that they wouldn't agree with some specifics of the projects, and the association would've had to find alternatives or better ways to make it work.
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I wouldn't be fooled. Wesa was planning to do this same exact thing.
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(Redacted)
Edit: Hmmm... looks like the situation is more complicated than I thought.
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Sanya12364 Posts
Are there any more updates to the drama?
#LoveMeSomeRegi
All of these organizations are attempting to "resolve the oversaturation problem" by carving out prime time slots with the best teams on behalf of a single organizer. It's such a lopsided way to resolve the issue.
At some point you just have to take the PEA threat and see if they are willing to give up their CS:GO league and produce other content.
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France9034 Posts
As far as I know, no really noteworthy updates.
People *finally* got to enjoy Christmas. 
Also, the major is getting near, and players are focusing back on practicing for it.
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I guess it is like all exclusivity league talks, we had in the past: (ESL Pro League talks at Katowice 2015, WESA talks beginning of 2016)
They lay down, take the beating and watch things going on. Their teams still make profit with CS:GO and they will not leave the game, they will try exclusivity next time again and fail again. The only difference between the last 2 attempts by ESL/WESA and this PEA one is the regional aspect and that the players stopped it, not certain orgs.
I expect that Jason Katz gets removed arround mid January to February and that PEA and ESL get into talks and get their shedules for the online matches and the lan finals adjusted, just as ESL and ECS did. After 2 seasons, one of them will make significant changes because his numbers dont add up or there will be another exclusivity attempt. It will again fail because the monetary and secondary interests of the parties (players, orgs, event orgs) do not add up.
See you in the next thread in 6 months, WESG exclusivity League.
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According to Dekays article and C9Jacks tweet, PEA League should be dead:
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France9034 Posts
Yeah, at this point, with the stance players adopted, I don't see how it could survive.
One should also see some kind of WESA victory here.
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Sanya12364 Posts
RIP. That was a quick death. Infant mortality so to speak.
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Yeah, I dont know what they were thinking.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
They were thinking, "Hey we got EPL to enact rev share. Cool."
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France9034 Posts
You have to consider one thing aside of that to have a better picture about what's going on. I think DeKay sums it up well (read the rest of the tweets for context)
I hope this will be clarified soon, because right now it just seems that WESA fucked a few other teams over.
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SirScoots on this via reddit:
Please keep in mind, the actual deals between teams and EPL are not equal. WESA, non-WESA, etc so I just estimated the rev splits to be equal, but they most likely are not equal across all 28 teams. I think the rev split number of $1m I used is actually low and most likely is a tad higher per season.
I would say WESA teams most likely do get a slightly higher % as they have a different relationship with EPL, I don't think that would be news to anyone. I would also say my estimates are low in the sense that these numbers are if they all got the same and I think WESA teams would get perhaps more than this average and that would raise the overall #.
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man out of the frying pan into the fire
really wish option out of one bullshit exclusive league didn't mean opting into another bullshit exclusive league but whatever.
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I dont see where EPL is exclusive though. EPL isnt stopping you from playing anywhere else?
They are offering the best deal. I fail to see how this a problem. This kind of revenue system is pretty normal. The difference was PEA forcing players to choose.
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France9034 Posts
On January 07 2017 06:32 Rebs wrote:
I dont see where EPL is exclusive though. EPL isnt stopping you from playing anywhere else?
They are offering the best deal. I fail to see how this a problem. This kind of revenue system is pretty normal. The difference was PEA forcing players to choose.
If participating in a League prevents you from participating in another, or if chosing the other prevents the first one from being run in the first place, that's exclusivity kind of.
Also, there's no best deal, there are two deals, one of which is better and for the WESA teams, and not the other.
And finally, did you miss that part?
According to the statement, WESA is offering a total of 10 percent of EPL's gross revenue to non-WESA teams, half of which was offered to the PEA teams under the condition that they agree not to run a PEA league for two years and instead commit to the EPL for two years.
In an industry where money is still an issue even for big dogs, that's another indirect way.
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It is clearly an indirect way of exclusivity.
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On January 07 2017 07:08 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2017 06:32 Rebs wrote:
I dont see where EPL is exclusive though. EPL isnt stopping you from playing anywhere else?
They are offering the best deal. I fail to see how this a problem. This kind of revenue system is pretty normal. The difference was PEA forcing players to choose.
If participating in a League prevents you from participating in another, or if chosing the other prevents the first one from being run in the first place, that's exclusivity kind of. Also, there's no best deal, there are two deals, one of which is better and for the WESA teams, and not the other. And finally, did you miss that part? Show nested quote +
According to the statement, WESA is offering a total of 10 percent of EPL's gross revenue to non-WESA teams, half of which was offered to the PEA teams under the condition that they agree not to run a PEA league for two years and instead commit to the EPL for two years.
In an industry where money is still an issue even for big dogs, that's another indirect way.
Yeah I did miss that part. That having been said
They could choose not to revenue share under any conditions and offer bigger prize pools and you still wouldnt be able to fault them much. The EPL realized that they could leverage the PEA into not pulling this shit again so they did. I dont blame them, I would have done the same. Or do you want players to have to deal with this shit every year same time ? Same channel ? Im sure the players dont. I would like to know how they feel about it. They will probably say, "not great but dont care."
Also I dont recall the EPL stopping people from attending majors, dreamhack.. e league, Star ladder.... should I go on ?
Time in of itself may be an issue but the calender is pretty saturated. There is no room for much else. The PEA was trying to encroach on someones space in the Calender and I cant believe anyone would fault them with some exclusivity tag for defending their spot.
Infact I think players would much rather play fewer big leagues like the EPL.
Yes that does lead to issues of a monopolistic nature but that happens in all competitive industries, mature ones atleast. No way around that.
I mean come on, sure the EPL is flexing some leverage but again at no point have they said, "YOU MUST PLAY OUR LEAGUE" and go nowhere else.
Which is what an exclusive deal is. Not. We have our league at this time, come if you want, here are the benefits of playing with us."
Im not sure what better deal there is that what the EPL is offering that exists. IF there is one Id be happy to know about it.
People who chose one event over another werent doing it because that league was exclusive, why is that the case now ?
Oh its not.. its just "kinda like that" *rolls eyes*.
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France9034 Posts
I don't get the condescending tone. I just stated facts. Although I would be way less apologetic about the EPL than you if I shared my opinion. I'm not sure about specific details though, so until then I'll think about it and refrain from posting only a half formed opinion.
Also
Which is what an exclusive deal is. Not. We have our league at this time, come if you want, here are the benefits of playing with us."
When you say that you have no right to participate in another specific league if you participate in EPL, that's still a form of exclusivity.
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On January 07 2017 10:23 Ragnarork wrote:I don't get the condescending tone. I just stated facts. Although I would be way less apologetic about the EPL than you if I shared my opinion. I'm not sure about specific details though, so until then I'll think about it and refrain from posting only a half formed opinion. Also Show nested quote +
Which is what an exclusive deal is. Not. We have our league at this time, come if you want, here are the benefits of playing with us."
When you say that you have no right to participate in another specific league if you participate in EPL, that's still a form of exclusivity.
yes but its in agreement with said league .. also thats literally not the meaning of exclusive. I dont see where im condescending. Ok except at the end, but I mean.. comon man.. I respect you enough to expect avoiding saying things like "kinda"
Fact its not exclusive. Kinda of exclusive is your opinion and not really a thing anyway. And it doesnt prevent players from Participating in PEA or whatever, it means the PEA doesnt run one. Its a run of the mill non compete.
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On January 07 2017 10:23 Ragnarork wrote:I don't get the condescending tone. I just stated facts. Although I would be way less apologetic about the EPL than you if I shared my opinion. I'm not sure about specific details though, so until then I'll think about it and refrain from posting only a half formed opinion. Also Show nested quote +
Which is what an exclusive deal is. Not. We have our league at this time, come if you want, here are the benefits of playing with us."
When you say that you have no right to participate in another specific league if you participate in EPL, that's still a form of exclusivity.
I see you both in the right spot.
First of all, WESA will not work with other leagues like they tried last year. During EPL Online stage, they will forbid their teams to play any other matches at the same day, meaning other existing leagues have to manouver arround the playdays of EPL. As EPL will take 3 days per week, thats gonna be tough and some sort to get a grip on exclusvie playdays.
Not to talk about the WESA 2018 plans.
But this specific deal between Ex-PEA (dead as fuck) and EPL about rev share for not making a own league does not strike for me as trigger warning for exclusivity. It was the PEA guys themself who said PEA and EPL cant coexist. While PEAs offer to EPL was "get the fuck out of america", the EPL offer is "we give you more income, you dont do this league, we best friends forever". The EPL way of making this deal does not look as any exclusivity attempt, as the other side started this with a much more brutal way and the EPL is trying to find a compromis over the line "PEA League and EPL cant coexists". Again, it was not ESL who said this first.
But how much exclusivity there is in EPL now is just not really important, as up to now, it is still very non exclusive. Neither in terms of teams joining it (thanks to relegation) nor in other tournament organisers concern, as the 2017 exclusivity attempt by WESA was stopped by the WESA team owners.
But these 2 years, 2017 and 2018 will determine the future of CS Esport (I dont say CS:GO, because who knows what valve does in their bunker), as with the influx of venture capital investors and traditional sport brands who try to get connected to the male 14-29 years olds, the industry changes fast. These new investors will try to push for new ways of making money out of esports, as the old ways never bring enough return to justify these investments. (North paying arround 20k per month to their players, absolute bubble). Its obvious, that monopolizing the market and selling broadcasting rights (like youtube-WESA deal) is the hot thing at the moment to make money fast (VC's are not there for the super long investment storys, they want to franchise the brand they own and sell it for x10 of the initial investment).
PEA was right with one thing: Orgs will not be able to pay the amounts of money that are paid at the moment to have a CS:GO team (thanks to the extreme inflation of player incomes in the last 2 years due to the new investment wave). This bubble will bubble either 2017 or 2018. If you dont want to suffer from that burst, you need the high income that could be possible with exclusive monopolized CS:GO, else your VC investments will be gone forever. Thus this exclusivity shit we had in the past was just a beginning, 2017 and 2018 will be the main fights about our Esport culture, about our way to do events, to hold leagues, to be an open circuit, to be accesable for new brands, for new players and new organisations. It is the most important time to hold what is great about esport, the access, the fast paced changing teams and players, the different event holders, the different league holders, the extreme amount of content that esport puts out with such little amount of teams. (Compare the amount of offical matches T1 and T2 teams in CS:GO play to T1/T2 football teams play).
If we are lucky, the bubble burst, the VC will pull out of CS:GO with their burned hands and not touch it for another 7 years (till Jason Katz is back in biz with his next attempt) and we dont have to deal with these fights. Yes, after the burst and the get out of VC and some traditional sport brands, our scene will have most likely less events (someone like turner wouldnt show up), players would earn less, teams would be smaller again. But exclusivity would not be something existing, as nobody would want our broadcasting rights. And if someone wants them, then esport would be adult enough that they can be sold without exclusivity bullshit.
If we are neither lucky nor unlucky, the VC driven teams (and the traditional esport teams following them) will build a global exclusive league, something like LCS without Valve. This could have the name EPL and be run by WESA, this could be something completly different. The teams not in this deal would suffer EXTREME and it would hurt our scene harsh, we would have less content and even paywalls could come up.But at least we still would have global competition (outside of the majors), we still would have relegation and sub-pro-leagues (like EPL has) and we still could see new teams and talents rise thanks to these things. It wouldnt be happy, if 2017 and 2018 go this way, but I wouldnt be totally said, it would be the best option of the shit exclusivity option.
If we are unlucky, we get a PEA League in NA, we get a WESA League in EU, we get a RFRESH League with "Player owned orgs" (which are not owned by players!) and maybe then china comes up with even their exlcusive league. In the end, each and every exclusive league would be up to 10 teams, low competition and with some broadcasting deals even possibly behind paywalls. The only global competitions would be the majors and with how valve is dealing with CS:GO (only 2 Majors 2016) , we cant even be sure that these will be there forever. And well yes, all teams not in exclusive deals are fucked forever as franchised VC leagues have no relegations to secure investments. But well, people like Reginald would become really rich, as they could sell their franchised TSM to some investors for alot of money.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Guess this whole drama is over with the players voting in favour of EPL. Probably a good thing for the cs:go community. Last thing you'll need is this kind of drama to grow a scene imo even if it can be juicy at times lol.
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EPT
