EPTMaybe, the point was supposed to be campy but I'm really confused why the story mode was so look forward to.
Street Fighter V - Page 29
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lestye
United States4158 Posts
Maybe, the point was supposed to be campy but I'm really confused why the story mode was so look forward to. | ||
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
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Duka08
3391 Posts
On July 04 2016 07:18 lestye wrote: I never played a Street Fighter story before V.... and I gotta say I'm not impressed with the writing so far. As much people gave shit to LOTV's story, the story for SFV was a clown show. An ensemble cast and none of them shows any real depth or motivation. Its like a bunch of personalities doing stuff with nothing really there. Maybe, the point was supposed to be campy but I'm really confused why the story mode was so look forward to. Street Fighter's never really have a "story", at least not one like this (others can correct me if I'm wrong). Mostly just what you can glean from small interactions between characters or any brief cutscenes before/after the typical Arcade mode (this is how SF4 was). I didn't expect anything from the story mode tbh, but the scope of this one was kind of a first for a SF game, so I think people are appreciating the fact that it exists, moreso than the fact that it would actually be any good. Like you said, it's a montage of nerd shots where everyone's favorite character(s) get a chance to interact a little bit, albeit incredibly shallow and laughably corny. Also I think getting a sneak peek at unreleased characters was interesting for a lot of people probably. I mean, look at how much lab work people have been doing with all the cool Urien shit already, just replaying a one round fight in story mode. Or the drooling fanboy reaction to Juri showing up and her new look (guilty  ).Anime games usually have more going on in the story department. "Classic" fighters like SF and MK have "stories" / arcade modes, but they're always comically bad. I think people expect it and embrace the campiness. | ||
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riotjune
United States3392 Posts
SF stories have always struck me as being written by an insane person anyway. | ||
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porkRaven
United States953 Posts
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TriX_sc2
19 Posts
The thing is that I for one don't see any way to actually predict the opponents next move except for guesswork. If I successfully block an attack, will he throw, or punch (to punish my counter-throw)? I can only guess, because with moves coming out in the matter of 60-100 miliseconds (3-4 frames onwards), I cannot react - human reaction times are about 200ms. That's exactly how this game feels, at least  So do people actually react, or do they just KNOW? | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
On July 06 2016 03:21 TriX_sc2 wrote: Sorry if this is really the wrong place to ask, but how on mother earth do you get into this game? I am new to fighting games and I have no idea whatsoever if there is any intelligent game design behind the genre. At first, i would say just have fun. The single most important thing to play SF or any fighting game is to enjoy yourself. If you're brand new, you're going to get beat badly and often. Try to find other new players to mess around with. As you begin to familiarize yourself with the basics, blocking, attacking, special moves, combos etc you should try to find a character you like (don't worry about TIER LISTS). Once you have your character you can start learning about Frame Data, this is basically the life blood behind the scenes of all fighting games. How does that guy always know what to do? Well, he probably knows that you hit Standing HP and he blocked it, you're now -5 on frames and he did his proper 5 frame punish. This is a very clear cut example when in reality most of what you see pros doing, you're not likely to notice yet. The spacing, whiff punishing, and educated guessing based on ranges, tendencies etc., etc. Honestly, it's a long hard road and I don't want to get into too much specifics right now but in the end, the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know and can start to respect the spacing, reactions and general strategy of 'good' people. It's a wild ride but if you enjoy the learning process and want to see tangible results, it's very rewarding. | ||
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Duka08
3391 Posts
On July 06 2016 03:33 crms wrote: Once you have your character you can start learning about Frame Data, this is basically the life blood behind the scenes of all fighting games. How does that guy always know what to do? Well, he probably knows that you hit Standing HP and he blocked it, you're now -5 on frames and he did his proper 5 frame punish. This is a very clear cut example when in reality most of what you see pros doing, you're not likely to notice yet. The spacing, whiff punishing, and educated guessing based on ranges, tendencies etc., etc. An even simpler way of phrasing/approaching this would just be "be aware of what is safe or not safe". Even without knowing the exact frame data, it's usually pretty obvious when you play with someones toolset. Little jabs and pokes (most light/medium buttons) are going to be "safe". You don't have a window to counterattack or punish. If they dragon punch and you block it, they are not going to be safe, so you can start a big combo since you have time to use your heavier moves. Again, this is still one of the more advanced aspects, and it's definitely not the same for all characters, but you don't need to worry about exact number of frames advantage or disadvantage until after you at least understand that you shouldn't constantly use big heavy attacks and specials that recovery slowly and leave you exposed. A good example for almost every character, esp in SFV, is sweeps (cr.HK). Once you settle on a character you like, as well as learn what gives you the most trouble, then you can go look at the exact numbers and realize "oh no wonder I always get uppercut when I do [some move] because it's -4 even though it doesn't look that dangerous". As for general approach to fighting games and being new, I would try your hardest to find someone just as new and bad as you are. Look on here, or on reddit, etc. Learning along with someone is both more fun and more forgiving. Also I would avoid thinking about the various options as a "rock paper scissors" triangle and just treat them as they are, options. That's my opinion though. If someone is blocking your attacks, don't go for a throw "because throws beat blocking", but because you want to surprise them and keep them on their toes. Use your options. It's all a balance of reacting, "guessing" or knowing what players might commonly do in different situations, and looking for patterns. You're right in saying some things are too quick to react to. But if someone does walk up jab jab -> throw three or four times, you should realize they like to do that and be ready to throw tech, rather than mashing throw tech any time someone is near you. This all takes time, it's not any easier, and certain things you might quickly build as muscle memory or habit (can be both good and bad..) depending on who you play with. Most importantly, keep playing, either alone (never doubt the benefit of simple repetitive training mode sessions) or with someone at a similar level. You can learn just as much by losing a lot to better players, especially if they are willing to talk to you about what's going on in the match and what to improve on, but it can still get frustrating very quickly depending on your own patience and mindset. | ||
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TriX_sc2
19 Posts
On July 06 2016 03:33 crms wrote: At first, i would say just have fun. The single most important thing to play SF or any fighting game is to enjoy yourself. If you're brand new, you're going to get beat badly and often. Try to find other new players to mess around with. As you begin to familiarize yourself with the basics, blocking, attacking, special moves, combos etc you should try to find a character you like (don't worry about TIER LISTS). Once you have your character you can start learning about Frame Data, this is basically the life blood behind the scenes of all fighting games. How does that guy always know what to do? Well, he probably knows that you hit Standing HP and he blocked it, you're now -5 on frames and he did his proper 5 frame punish. This is a very clear cut example when in reality most of what you see pros doing, you're not likely to notice yet. The spacing, whiff punishing, and educated guessing based on ranges, tendencies etc., etc. Honestly, it's a long hard road and I don't want to get into too much specifics right now but in the end, the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know and can start to respect the spacing, reactions and general strategy of 'good' people. It's a wild ride but if you enjoy the learning process and want to see tangible results, it's very rewarding. Yeah I guess I am ranting more than anything else. I know about frame data, I just don't use it yet - it's too much information at once. I guess you make a valid point that because of that, I cannot make a difference between button-mashing/attack-spamming and proper play. | ||
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TriX_sc2
19 Posts
On July 06 2016 04:04 Duka08 wrote: An even simpler way of phrasing/approaching this would just be "be aware of what is safe or not safe". Even without knowing the exact frame data, it's usually pretty obvious when you play with someones toolset. Also I would avoid thinking about the various options as a "rock paper scissors" triangle and just treat them as they are, options. That's my opinion though. If someone is blocking your attacks, don't go for a throw "because throws beat blocking", but because you want to surprise them and keep them on their toes. Thanks to you too, you also made some very good points, esp. the safe vs. unsafe-thing is something I probably completely ignore :D A quicky on that Rock-Paper-Scissor-thing, I brought that up because it seems to be a fundamental concept in a lot of games, not only fighting games but SC2 or MOBAs have it. So in SC2 let's say Cheese-Greed-Reactive/Macro is one of those triangles. Unit interaction is largely based on these triangles as well, so for example the recent liberator-armored-damage-nerf is an example where suddenly, corruptors became a paper instead of being a somewhat different scissor. In case you play SC2 | ||
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Duka08
3391 Posts
On July 06 2016 04:16 TriX_sc2 wrote: Thanks to you too, you also made some very good points, esp. the safe vs. unsafe-thing is something I probably completely ignore :D A quicky on that Rock-Paper-Scissor-thing, I brought that up because it seems to be a fundamental concept in a lot of games, not only fighting games but SC2 or MOBAs have it. So in SC2 let's say Cheese-Greed-Reactive/Macro is one of those triangles. Unit interaction is largely based on these triangles as well, so for example the recent liberator-armored-damage-nerf is an example where suddenly, corruptors became a paper instead of being a somewhat different scissor. In case you play SC2 I mean you're not wrong, and it's definitely not the worst way to think about it either. My point was just to try avoiding falling into the trap of always thinking "X beats Y". It works in general and can get you far (analogous to SC2 like you mentioned) but a different way of saying it would just be "exercise all your options". If you never throw when they're just blocking your attacks and jump ins, it's not that "you aren't countering them" but that you're leaving options off the table. They don't need to worry about you throwing them, and that doesn't mean you LOSE outright (like if you went in to a fight with an inferior composition in Starcraft), but it won't get you anywhere either. Exercising all your options not only helps to avoid stalemate scenarios where whatever you're doing is just getting you nowhere, but it forces your opponent to think a little harder and be afraid of more things. It's very easy to get into the rut of only thinking about what your opponent can do and just worrying about staying alive, when it's just as important to realize they're worried too. Keep them guessing. That doesn't always mean the most complex high/low mixups or cross ups or anything like that that leads to big damage, but even just little unpredictable moments add up. Maybe you jump in a couple times and they're good at blocking it, so you decide to try jumping in, jab once, then throw when they might not expect it to surprise them. It works, but next time you try the same thing they tech it because they remembered they got thrown last time. Now instead of jab -> throw you could jab, take a step forward and hit medium punch or cr.MK->fireball or something, to use Ryu as an example. You might catch them while they're predicting you're going to throw, or at the very least even if they block it it's more for them to think about (you know, assuming they ARE thinking...). Keeping people on their toes is in my opinion both one of the deeper aspects about fighting games but also one of the most satisfying and fun to do. And I don't mean deeper as in more difficult. You can play mind games like this even when you're newer, assuming you're playing someone on your level. It teaches you to think while you play and to ask yourself what the opponent is doing and make decisions, instead of just going autopilot and doing the same set ups or jump ins or patterns over and over. Again, all that stuff can work if you practice it well, just like a solid build order in SC2, but THINKING about what your opponent is doing, or is going to do next (scouting and reacting), is just as important. | ||
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lestye
United States4158 Posts
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TriX_sc2
19 Posts
On July 06 2016 04:41 Duka08 wrote: stuff Yes, makes 100% sense. Thanks again | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On July 06 2016 03:21 TriX_sc2 wrote: Sorry if this is really the wrong place to ask, but how on mother earth do you get into this game? I am new to fighting games and I have no idea whatsoever if there is any intelligent game design behind the genre. Let me elaborate. As far as I understand, there is a triangle of Attack vs. Block vs. Throw. Rock Paper Scissor. The thing is that I for one don't see any way to actually predict the opponents next move except for guesswork. If I successfully block an attack, will he throw, or punch (to punish my counter-throw)? I can only guess, because with moves coming out in the matter of 60-100 miliseconds (3-4 frames onwards), I cannot react - human reaction times are about 200ms. That's exactly how this game feels, at least So do people actually react, or do they just KNOW? It's sort of rock paper scissor, but a lot more involved than that. For example you mentioned 3-4 frame jabs. Yes those can beat a majority of moves and leaves you with only an option to block, but then your block can be exploited by throws. It seems like a guessing game now where you have the disadvantage. If you try anything but block jab wins, but if you try to block and they throw the throw wins. But in reality, 3-4 frame jabs have extremely short range. If you are in a situation where your opponent can jab you like that, you are already in a disadvantageous position. You could have completely prevented this position by preventing the opponent to get so close. If they jumped in you could have anti aired. If they charged in with a special you could have counter attacked or punished on block in most cases. So for your question of is it reacting or just knowing? A bit of both. It's not a PURE reaction in most cases. For example, if you wait until you see your opponent in the air then decide "hey i need to anti air" and perform a shoryuken, it's just too late. When you become a skilled player, the game is all about reading your opponent. Looking at your opopnents options and taking advantage. You will take note of their jump range. When they go inside that jump range, you will be PREPARED with the anti air. Not just waiting, but prepared. Meaning even if they have not yet jumped, you will preemptively do the shoryuken motion "just in case". If they end up jumping then all you have to do is hit punch (since you did the motion). You can call this a reaction, but it's not a pure reaction, it's a reaction you were prepared to do. Which means you must be aware of your opponents options, then you can counterplay it. Another example with jabs, is jabs CAN be beat on wakeup. Some players once you face them, you can just tell they are jab spammers. Usually their graph will be full "aggressive", and they attack carelessly. These people usually spam jab on wakeup. But you can perform setups that can beat jabs on wakeup. For example with Necalli, if you do a forward throw, immediate dash, then HP, it can beat them. So you would use this strategy to counter those kind of players. It becomes a complete mind game. You must be aware of your opponents options and devise a way on how to counter it, becuase everything in the game DOES have a counter. But then your opponent starts adapting to you. And you adapt back, back and forth. This is where true skill lies in a fighting game. Who can adapt better. This is why people normally say you need a training partner, or lobbies, to get better in a fighting game. Ranked doesn't help much. Because players are pretty random in ranked. But vs teh same player, they adapt to you, you adapt back. Justin Wong recently said he improves because he lays his cards on the table. This means with his training partners, he tells them his weaknesses. He tells them his strong setups. He tells them how to escape his mixups. He basically tells them how to defeat him. Because then, he will be going against a fully prepared opponent, and will need to learn how to react in the situation that your opponent knows all your tricks. This is where true skill lies. The game design is actually quite intelligent, especially once you learn about the intricasies of frame data, and start to see the intent between moves & hitboxes having advantages in which situations. It's pretty amazing how well SF5 is balanced in that regard actually. My advice - try to find a regular training partner. Teach each other how to defeat each other. All the rest will fall in to place and start to make sense - you will go from "pure reaction" to "prepared reactions" when you can judge what they are doing at the specific time. You will be able to punish his bad habits, and watch him resolve those bad habits and start punishing your punishes. Before you know it, you will be more comfortable than you thought you could be in the game, your reactions will be far quicker, and you will be able to read random opponents very easily, because you are used to facing someone who is AWARE you are reading them and is intentionally doing things to throw you off. Once you get to the point where you are learning minds games & character matchups, the game gets exponentially more fun. That's what fighting games are all about! Good luck! | ||
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Duka08
3391 Posts
Don't get me wrong, this is also just a lotta talk! Theory and practice are very different lol. I've been playing SF for 4-5 years now and I don't follow a lot of these rules a lot of the time. It's easy to be stubborn and frustrate quickly! Most of the time I don't follow all this advice. Autopilot is dangerous. It's good once in a while to step back and organize these kinds of thoughts to make one consider about all the little things I ignore unless I'm really in the zone now and then. Just like SC, there's a lot you can learn and understand without being able to fully implement it in your game right away or practicing effectively. Find someone you enjoy playing with, chat about what you're thinking about or struggling with and what is good/bad between games. Best way to learn, easiest way to get hooked. Looks like there's at least one other person in this thread that's interested! I'm sure more lurk here and there  On July 06 2016 05:37 Spyridon wrote: It becomes a complete mind game. You must be aware of your opponents options and devise a way on how to counter it, becuase everything in the game DOES have a counter. But then your opponent starts adapting to you. And you adapt back, back and forth. This is where true skill lies in a fighting game. Who can adapt better. This is why people normally say you need a training partner, or lobbies, to get better in a fighting game. Ranked doesn't help much. Because players are pretty random in ranked. But vs teh same player, they adapt to you, you adapt back. Justin Wong recently said he improves because he lays his cards on the table. This means with his training partners, he tells them his weaknesses. He tells them his strong setups. He tells them how to escape his mixups. He basically tells them how to defeat him. Because then, he will be going against a fully prepared opponent, and will need to learn how to react in the situation that your opponent knows all your tricks. This is where true skill lies. ^ This is great stuff! Especially the note about random ranked games and longer sets / training partners. | ||
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porkRaven
United States953 Posts
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
On July 03 2016 15:37 porkRaven wrote: I don't think they're going to take out cool aegis reflector combos or setups, they'd kill the character. Consider some of the stuff ibuki can do Urien doesn't look too bad. The only thing they've really been taking out is option select stuff. I don't think they would've included them if they weren't fairly confident in their move sets. I hope not, but if the Beta showed us anything it's that Capcom kind of likes removing cool shit people come up with... | ||
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mikedebo
Canada4341 Posts
On the other hand, I was anti-Urien in third strike and anti-Juri in SF4, and they are both looking fun as hell right now!! Still time for that to change but I was pleasantly surprised by what I've seen so far. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On July 08 2016 19:24 mikedebo wrote: Boxer is super fun to play and fight against but I'm sadly not feeling Ibuki at all. Her vtrigger setups are beautiful, but she feels so boring to play until she gets there. She's the first character reboot where I can strongly say that I liked her SF4 version better. On the other hand, I was anti-Urien in third strike and anti-Juri in SF4, and they are both looking fun as hell right now!! Still time for that to change but I was pleasantly surprised by what I've seen so far. Ibuki is a tech based character. High skill cap. She will take more time to develop than other chars, but will likely be scary as hell given time to develop. Same thing happened in SF4. | ||
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