• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:15
CEST 04:15
KST 11:15
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 2 - RO4 & Finals Results (2025)10Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy4Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 9-15): herO doubles on GSL week0Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer12Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson."2Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey.8Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)14
StarCraft 2
General
Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game Rogue EWC 2025 Hype Video! Code S Season 2 - RO4 & Finals Results (2025) Rain's Behind the Scenes Storytime Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer
Tourneys
$5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 SOOP Starcraft Global #22 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] Darkgrid Layout
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target
Brood War
General
ASL20 Preliminary Maps BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Recent recommended BW games FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu
Tourneys
[BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - WB Finals & LBR3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Echoes of Revolution and Separation
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
NHL Playoffs 2024 2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 31098 users

NA CS: A Comprehensive look at Underperformance

Forum Index > General Games
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-06 15:56:12
November 30 2015 16:14 GMT
#1
The Majors are where Legends are made. These Valve-sponsored premier tournaments are hosted by only the best organizers and feature the pinnacle of Counter-Strike: Global Offensive play. To date, there have been seven, with four different teams from three different countries crowned champion. The Swedes, the Poles, and the French all boast trophies. As of today, there are eight teams who have achieved Legend status for making it out of the group stage in the latest Major: EnVyUs, Natus Vincere, G2 Esports, Ninjas in Pyjamas, Fnatic, Virtus.pro, Team SoloMid, and Luminosity Gaming.

Conspicuously missing from this list of accolades is a North American team. One needs only a cursory knowledge of the history of CS:GO to know that North America has failed repeatedly to field an elite team on the international stage. In the two years of the Majors’ existence, only a single core of NA players has ever made it out of groups; the team that Spencer ‘Hiko’ Martin, Sean ‘sgares’ Gares, Jordan ‘n0thing’ Gilbert, and Kory ‘Semphis’ Friesen formed. They did it with Braxton ‘swag’ Pierce as their fifth as compLexity in DreamHack Winter 2013 and EMS One Katowice 2014. Later, they did it at ESL One Cologne 2014 as Cloud9 with Mike ‘shroud’ Grzesiek replacing swag after the latter had left the team. Since then, NA teams have repeatedly failed to make the quarterfinals.

One other NA team appeared with the coL/C9 line-up in the first four Majors: iBUYPOWER. Their failures at Majors was perhaps even more astounding than their NA brethren. Regarded as the more talented, better led team that always had the head-to-head edge, iBUYPOWER should have out-performed coL/C9. Yet in ESL One Cologne 2014 and Dreamhack Winter 2014, they faltered in the group stages and were unable to deliver, despite having picked up the highly-skilled swag after he left coL.
Throughout 2015, NA has been floundering in international competition. The past three Majors have been utter failures for NA teams, despite the fact that more of them have qualified than ever before. Each of the top 3 teams (C9, CLG, TL) has shown some promise, but outside of an extraordinary run of form such as C9’s at the ESL ESEA Pro League Season 1 LAN Finals, ESWC Montreal 2015 and FACEIT Stage 2 Finals, none of it has been lasting. It ultimately leaves us with the question: why has NA failed to form a true contender to win a major?
To truly comprehend NA’s struggles in the international context, one must understand the story of iBUYPOWER. This team was originally formed in late 2013 by Tyler ‘Skadoodle’ Latham, Kevin ‘AZK’ Lariviere, Sam ‘Dazed’ Marine, Eric ‘adreN’ Hoag and Todd ‘anger’ Williams. After Katowice 2014, they made an important roster change, bringing in Josh ‘steel’ Nissan and Braxton ‘swag’ Pierce to replace what the team saw as their weaker links. After reloading with arguably more skilled players, they had strong showings at both ESEA S16 and FACEIT S2 Lan Finals , winning the former and coming second to the best team in the world at the latter.

Yet outside of these two placings, the team historically did worse than compLexity/Cloud9 at almost every international event they both attended. Despite having better domestic success and an edge in the head-to-head, iBP never had a run like C9’s at ESL One Cologne 2014. Some would point to close matches and groups of death in a flawed Major tournament format as reasons why they never made it to the playoffs. Nonetheless, one has to question what went wrong. Did the team need a change?

Indeed, the team did make a roster change only weeks before DH Winter 2014. They kicked Dazed and steel and brought in two rising stars from NA with strong aim: Nick ‘nitr0’ Canella and Derek ‘desi’ Branchen. This iteration of iBP lost the decider to PENTA 16-13 and were knocked out. It did not take long for them to drop desi and add Dazed back, understanding that the lack of leadership likely cost them their chance at a Major success story. It was also around this time that Hiko left C9, citing motivational issues within the team.

It was during this period that NA fans really got their hopes up. Hiko joined up with the now former-iBP squad to form an NA superteam. The line-up of Dazed, swag, Hiko, Skadoodle, and AZK was indisputably the most talented set of players the region had ever put together. Dazed was widely regarded as the best in-game leader in NA, Ska the best AWPer, and either Hiko or swag as the best player, full stop. They began to shop around for a real sponsor to get paid, as iBP only provided travel stipends with no salary.

Unfortunately, this team’s potential will forever remain a mystery. Famously, the match-fixing scandal that shook NA CS:GO to its core took this team apart and left NA without many of its best players. The aftermath left steel, Dazed, swag, and AZK with indefinite bans from competing in Valve’s Majors. Other tournament organizers have followed suit in banning the players as well.

Post-ban, Hiko and Skadoodle tried to shop around for a new team as a pair, but were unable to find a fit for the both of them. Today, Hiko plays for Team Liquid and Ska for C9. Despite the bans, Swag is still so highly regarded that C9 had him under contract as an “analyst”, despite his lack of analytical experience. C9 later changed his official title to “streamer” when Valve released a statement stating their discontent for organizations having interactions with the banned players. The move is somewhat of a hope that one day Valve will reconsider the ban and NA will gain back one of its most talented players of all time.

What team could possibly step into the void left by this ban and provide results? Not only were these highly talented players, they also comprised a significant margin of the experience that NA had playing internationally, with Dazed and swag being on the original top NA CS:GO teams such as Area 51 and Team Dynamic, along with a plethora of other longstanding NA players still around in the top of the scene today. As 2015 has shown, the North American scene is still reeling from the impact of this blow.
North American teams do not, as a rule, get a lot of international experience. European teams rarely travel to NA, and only a select few NA teams qualify for the big EU LANs worth the cost of traveling overseas and competing. This is one of the major factors in NA’s lack of results at LANs that feature international competition. EU teams have a decisive advantage in level of play, because they are constantly playing online against one another, honing their strategies and developing a robust metagame.

In NA, the only chance to gain similar experience is to play the absolute best NA teams that have some level of refinement. However, oftentimes these teams do not take league games against lesser teams seriously and are heavily anti-stratted even if they do. Ultimately, this leads to a Catch-22; to have international success, you need experience. However, to get the experience you must be on a top NA team, but to be on one of those teams you often need experience already because they only replace players to have immediate upgrades in results.

Thus, you have seen names like adreN, Semphis, seangares, Dazed, swag, Hiko, and n0thing since the earliest days of GO be on these teams with only a select few others getting the chance to join top NA teams and develop their talent. Recently, this has changed, to a degree, with teams like TL and CLG entering the scene and providing funds and developing rising talent. However, the current state of the game sees only three NA teams consistently playing against top-flight European teams. That’s simply not enough good practice for NA, as a region, to make large strides towards parity.
On the topic of practice, there is another problem with North America and how they learn to play the game, and it comes in the form of the most ubiquitous Pick-Up-Game service around: ESEA. It seems almost unnecessary to document the organization’s transgressions at this point; from Bitcoin mining, to effectively rootkitting your PC, and even making fun of disabled people for their own gain. [Author’s note: I still play on ESEA LOL]

The real issue is, however, that these past controversies are not even the reason ESEA is a problem. The real issue comes with the metric they use to measure a player’s contribution to the game: RWS, or Round Win Share. On its face, this metric does not seem all that bad. Players get points for contributing to a round win by doing damage or completing round-ending objectives like planting and defusing the bomb. However, it is not quite as perfect as it sounds, and it ultimately reinforces an individualistic mindset. RWS is looked upon by the community as a real indicator of skill, but is woefully flawed and biased towards certain styles of play.
  • Not every round is equal. To any seasoned Counter-Strike player, this seems obvious. Because of the game’s economy system, not every round is an equal playing field between combatants. Killing opponents that do not have rifles or armor is much easier than getting frags against AKs and AWPs. Yet ESEA’s metric treats these as equal. All that matters is that you did damage and won the round. Treating all damage equally in round wins is misleading, as often the impact players that get key frags in important positions get rewarded less than the over-aggressive “primary” who just runs down mid and farms easy kills on eco rounds. {NiP’s Adam ‘friberg’ Friberg agrees}

  • All rounds matter. Even in losing rounds, players can do things that help their team win the game. If someone gets a 4K but loses the round, ESEA’s RWS system treats it as if they did nothing. In reality, this player made 4 opponents rebuy weapons, armor, and grenades the next round, giving his team more of a chance to win future rounds by affecting the enemy’s economy. Again, a player having impact is not being rewarded by this metric, despite their obvious effect on the game. No round win exists in isolation.

  • Strategy. If one has ever played on ESEA, they would know what the environment is like, strategically speaking. Entire 30 round games can go by with zero calls being made, no communication being had, and no teamplay being attempted. Players simply are not rewarded for even attempting cooperation outside of the nebulous idea that perhaps if they make this call now, their teammates can win the round they contributed towards and they will get RWS points for it. The only recourse for this mentality is giving a player minus karma after the game is over, which is a proverbial drop in the bucket given that many PUG players have hundreds of karma to lose before they experience any negative repercussions. It simply does not mean anything.

Ultimately, ESEA’s system is churning out a bunch of relatively mindless players who chase frags but do not communicate well or strategize. This bleeds all the way into the top teams where players exist and get paid salaries, despite knowing little about the game beyond how to kill people. This can be frustrating to players that have a mind for strategy, as you must micro-manage every player on your team so that they follow the plan you have set out.



Sean obviously feels incredibly frustrated, as he speaks about how their team prepared and how his team played. Compared to their high water mark of the summer of 2015, they were less prepared, less aggressive, and in a worse mindset at the Dreamhack Cluj-Napoca Major. He speaks about repetitive mental errors and poor communication that have been issues within the team for a long time, leading one to believe that these players (some of the best in NA) are not improving in these areas and developing the team cohesion that is essential for top level play.

While every team certainly has their issues (as any random assortment of five people would), one would hope that players being paid salaries to compete in a video game would work to improve over time. Is it a motivational issue that holds these players back from achieving in CS:GO? They make large sums of money streaming and still manage to win the odd NA LAN, so perhaps the financial motivation of winning something like a Major just is not there. Without some sort of personal drive to achieve or other intrapersonal motivating factor, perhaps they do not have a reason to push themselves to improve.
On the topic of team dynamic, there is another factor impeding NA development. In the past, even some of the more successful line-ups have succumbed to “toxic” team environments, and thereafter fallen apart or changed players. The original Area-51 line-up, with Semphis and Dazed, had in-fighting between Marine and Friesen, ultimately leading to the team dropping the latter. Dazed again had friction between himself and teammate steel in iBP, leading to the team dropping them both before eventually bringing Dazed back in.

C9, at one time, said that they preferred playing with each other because they were all friends, and would rather play with friends than be successful. Ironically, Hiko left that team even after giving a speech to Thorin on this subject. To this day, it seems that the personal feelings of the players dictate their roster decisions, as they have in the past.

These situations give one the impression that NA is populated by oversized egos incapable of working through disagreement in the name of professionalism. Hiko, in that same Reflections interview with Thorin, stated that the top players form their own ‘cliques’ and largely stick to them. If they do not like a player, they attempt to turn others against him and keep him out of top teams (see: Dazed’s vendetta against Shahzam post-ban).

The European scene sees relatively little infighting compared to this. Europe’s players are all much more professional and team-oriented both inside and out of the game. Perhaps some of it is a bit nationalistic, given that most countries have only one or two good teams, but the mindset of the players cannot be discounted. Even the French players Richard ‘shox’ Papillon and Kevin ‘Ex6tenZ’ Droolans put aside their past differences recently to team together again in a retooled Titan.
One must wonder, then, what can North America do to change these systemic issues within the scene to reach greater heights than they have thus far? Some issues, such as the personality conflicts and player habits, cannot be readily patched up. Organizations would have to provide a personnel manager that can provide real conflict resolution to prevent prolonged infighting and team implosions. They would need to invest more in making sure their teams are actually practicing to improve by providing a coach worth his salt to train them. Some teams do this, but others have yet to provide real infrastructure to support their players. Think what iBP could have done with backing from an organization like Evil Geniuses! One could argue the match-fixing never would have occurred.

Wishful thinking aside, there are a few models for success that NA can look at to learn from and improve upon.
Luminosity Gaming is not a North American team, strictly speaking. The Brazilian side originally trained in their home country before making a splash as Kabum.TD and later as Keyd Stars in NA competitions. They made the move to the U.S. for the ESL ESEA Pro League, and now they have a team house. The team also has their own coach and Manager, along with a sister team that Gabriel “FalleN” Toledo is developing called Games Academy.

Despite arguably lower individual skill than many of its NA counterparts, this team has achieved success in the Majors it has attended, placing top 8 or better in all 3 that have occurred in 2015. Granted, they have yet to crack the semis, but the team is still regarded as a legitimate threat in any tournament it enters and often scores upsets against good European teams.

What can be taken away from this team? Obviously they have great infrastructure around them with both a coach and a manager to help them in NA. From their media, it also seems that the team owner, Steve “Buyaka” Maida, is involved in helping the team run well and genuinely roots for them at events. This sort of support, both financial and personal, is essential to their success as a team.

The impact of their sister team cannot be ignored, either. Koreans in Brood War succeeded for so long in part because they had highly skilled practice partners to play against on a regular basis. Even in League of Legends, this trend continued with sister teams often being rivals on an international scale such and CJ Entus Blaze and Frost. Gamers Academy may not be quite on the level of LG, but as shown in the recent RGN Pro Series LAN, they are around mid-level NA teams in skill.

Not only is it quite good practice, but FalleN also realizes the importance of developing talent. Not only do LG benefit from having a scrim partner, but GA also benefit from getting to play LG. Rarely do any NA players care about actually developing the scene beyond their own team, or even just themselves. The only org currently to have more than one team is CLG with their all-female CLG Red squad, and I doubt that they scrim their male colleagues all too often, given that CLG Red only participates in smaller LANs such as Fragadelphia, along with some online leagues.

Liquid is another example of an organization that is attempting to field a successful team despite NA’s pitfalls. They have invested in a dedicated coach since Day One, realizing the necessity to take some of the workload of analysis and tactical brainstorming off of the in-game leader. Their roster has undergone quite a change since it was originally announced as well, swapping out players on a frequent basis in an attempt to find a better fit and not hesitating to pick up rising talent such as Jonathan ‘EliGE’ Jablonowski.

While this team has certainly had its highs and lows, it is currently on the upswing in the few LANs that have followed the Cluj-Napoca Major. The current roster of adreN, nitr0, Hiko, EliGE, and Jacob ‘FugLy’ Medina has only been together for a couple of months and they are showing some great performances from time to time, though these are admittedly undercut by periods of inexperience and inconsistency against high-level teams.
The last change that could really elevate North America’s mid-tier talent and provide more experience for high-level players would be a system like Faceit Pro League. To those unaware, FPL is a PUG-like service that is usually staged as a competition to see who has the highest points (a function of win/loss and an ELO system) in a given time period. In essence, FPL would be like ESEA, but only for pros or other high-level players. Currently, the closest thing to this is the regular 10-mans that occur between high-level players. This service, however, would be much more extensive and far less exclusive. Instead of having to be friends with a pro, you would simply have to climb the ladder and prove that you are objectively good enough to compete. This would give another way for rising talent to up their game and become recognized, rather than having to grind with a team through the various ESEA leagues and hope to get noticed.

This system was developed for DotA, where it has had some success in both EU and NA, despite NA DotA sharing some of the glaring problems that NA CS has. FPL EU recently had some controversy over players being “kicked” by a committee of pro players, but this seems more like an issue with the way the league is being conducted rather than some knock on the concept as a whole.

While an ELO system is far from perfect in determining a player’s objective skill in a team-based game such as Counter-Strike, it is still significantly better than ESEA’s misleading RWS metric. Rather than trying to uproot ESEA as a service in NA, which is a rather impossible task, FPL could simply provide something that ESEA does not. Why they have yet to attempt to penetrate the NA market despite having NA services for other levels of play is perplexing, but not altogether surprising given the dominance of ESEA.

The only alternative to a FPL that would improve the ecosystem at high-level play would be a retooling of the matchmaking system Valve has implemented in CS:GO, as currently the system is quite bad for high-level players. Again, this may be intentional as not to encroach upon ESEA, but nonetheless, 64-tick servers and the rank distribution being capped at GE inhibits matchmaking from becoming anything more than a time sink for any player attempting to honestly improve at the game.
Looking at the history of North American CS:GO, it’s rather obvious that NA cannot simply go on as it has been and expect success. With issues ranging from personality clashes to lack of teamplay, the scene has a lot of ground to cover before it can challenge EnVy.Us or Fnatic for the best team in the world. It may be that NA teams stay mired in mediocrity, never putting together a fully realized roster with the potential to win a Major. But at the very least, North America should be able to produce at least a single team worthy of Legend status, a feat they have yet to manage.

While none of these problems have easy answers, they are nonetheless contributing factors to the overall lack of success. Hopefully teams look to models like Luminosity and attempt to copy their structure and steal their ideas. Having a support network for your players is incredibly important, even the players of TSM realize it more than the owner of the organization himself does, having decided to pay their manager out of their own pockets after he was released from TSM.

Perhaps by this time next year, there will be a team worth writing about. An American team worth fanboying over. One writer certainly will not give up hope.



Writer: Yamato
Editor: Amazingxkcd
Graphics: Rick
CSS: FO-nTTaX

The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
November 30 2015 17:37 GMT
#2
well worth the read, good works to Yamato for turning a 3 hour conversation into a quality read
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
Muffloe
Profile Joined December 2012
Sweden6061 Posts
November 30 2015 17:38 GMT
#3
Yeah, I eagerly scrolled down to see the writer, gj yamato ^^
Endbringer
Profile Joined June 2010
United States111 Posts
November 30 2015 18:08 GMT
#4
Great article and great points about the RWS system in NA.
sertas
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden882 Posts
November 30 2015 18:08 GMT
#5
its american individualism that is hindering teams. They basicly have to go allout against their own american culture to work as a team
Ragnarork
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
France9034 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 19:02:25
November 30 2015 19:02 GMT
#6
Amazing article!

Congratz Yamato!

Yeah, pls get rid of RWS as a """measure""", it's terrible

On December 01 2015 03:08 sertas wrote:
its american individualism that is hindering teams. They basicly have to go allout against their own american culture to work as a team


I remember reading someone (don't remember who) saying that american players also expect salaries, a team house, the whole package, before putting up results, and that it was the wrong approach: that first you need to get a team that works, that put up results, that has some chemistry, and then with success in lesser tiered tournaments, or with good results at premier events, you get the recognition and all the stuff that goes with a top tier team. Dunno if that's actually a thing and has an impact on results.
LiquipediaWanderer
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
November 30 2015 19:13 GMT
#7
the subject matter of team houses for unproven teams is an interesting point to make. It would also be difficult for organizations to invest in said houses when teams are doing roster shuffles every end of esea season, which we're about to witness pretty soon. Teams like winterfox getting a roster is a gamble for them because their roster has changed drastically over the last year and who knows if the players on that team will stay together long enough for the benefits of the house to pay off.
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 19:43:56
November 30 2015 19:24 GMT
#8
Thanks for the article. I think the case of LG and its "sister team" is particularly interesting because I was hearing recently about how many NA teams, if not all of them, have absolutely no formal training scrims. They play other NA teams, and rather than playing to learn, they play to win. They play to boost their egos. And what happens a lot of the time is they'll start fucking around and buy negevs or dumb weapons to "humiliate" their opponents, and so the games sometimes have a dynamic which is very different from what you encounter in an actual tournament match.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
November 30 2015 19:39 GMT
#9
On December 01 2015 04:24 Djzapz wrote:
Thanks for the article. I think the case of LG and its "sister team" is particularly interesting because I was hearing recently about how many NA teams of not all of them have absolutely no formal training scrims. They play other NA teams, and rather than playing to learn, they play to win. They play to boost their egos. And what happens a lot of the time is they'll start fucking around and buy negevs or dumb weapons to "humiliate" their opponents, and so the games sometimes have a dynamic which is very different from what you encounter in an actual tournament match.


dazed talks in depth about this in his reflections interview with thorin on how ibp would never want to scrim c9, and if they did would try to play to win in the most humiliating way due to clashes of egos. Compound that to the entirety of NA and one can see how quantity of practice may not matter if it's not quality practice at all
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
whatusername
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada1181 Posts
November 30 2015 19:43 GMT
#10
Great article m8, the only issue I have is with the confusing headers, I kept expecting each section to be about Team Liquid since the team name is giant compared to the actual section titles lol
im gay
Clonester
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany2808 Posts
November 30 2015 20:14 GMT
#11
Bootcamp in Europe... as often you can... thats what I did read.
Bomber, Attacker, DD, SOMEBODY, NiKo, Nex, Spidii
Ragnarork
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
France9034 Posts
November 30 2015 20:29 GMT
#12
On December 01 2015 04:39 amazingxkcd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2015 04:24 Djzapz wrote:
Thanks for the article. I think the case of LG and its "sister team" is particularly interesting because I was hearing recently about how many NA teams of not all of them have absolutely no formal training scrims. They play other NA teams, and rather than playing to learn, they play to win. They play to boost their egos. And what happens a lot of the time is they'll start fucking around and buy negevs or dumb weapons to "humiliate" their opponents, and so the games sometimes have a dynamic which is very different from what you encounter in an actual tournament match.


dazed talks in depth about this in his reflections interview with thorin on how ibp would never want to scrim c9, and if they did would try to play to win in the most humiliating way due to clashes of egos. Compound that to the entirety of NA and one can see how quantity of practice may not matter if it's not quality practice at all


This is childish and recipe for failure to a point that baffles me.
LiquipediaWanderer
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 20:34:56
November 30 2015 20:34 GMT
#13
On December 01 2015 05:29 Ragnarork wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2015 04:39 amazingxkcd wrote:
On December 01 2015 04:24 Djzapz wrote:
Thanks for the article. I think the case of LG and its "sister team" is particularly interesting because I was hearing recently about how many NA teams of not all of them have absolutely no formal training scrims. They play other NA teams, and rather than playing to learn, they play to win. They play to boost their egos. And what happens a lot of the time is they'll start fucking around and buy negevs or dumb weapons to "humiliate" their opponents, and so the games sometimes have a dynamic which is very different from what you encounter in an actual tournament match.


dazed talks in depth about this in his reflections interview with thorin on how ibp would never want to scrim c9, and if they did would try to play to win in the most humiliating way due to clashes of egos. Compound that to the entirety of NA and one can see how quantity of practice may not matter if it's not quality practice at all


This is childish and recipe for failure to a point that baffles me.


it should baffle you and it will
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
Ragnarork
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
France9034 Posts
November 30 2015 20:39 GMT
#14
This is beyond ridiculous haha.

And he says that with the smile "hey you can't put ego asides".

Well, then, you won't put in the necessary practice and reach decent levels, doh. They are either not enough competitive, or too competitive within their small world...
LiquipediaWanderer
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 22:59:36
November 30 2015 21:45 GMT
#15
If anyone wants some extracurricular work, watch the Reflections interviews Thorin has done with Hiko and Dazed. They are both quite enlightening.

Also, I have to give thanks to fellow TLer Lord Tolkein who helped me edit for grammar and clarity.
Writer@WriterYamato
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
November 30 2015 22:53 GMT
#16
On December 01 2015 05:39 Ragnarork wrote:
This is beyond ridiculous haha.

And he says that with the smile "hey you can't put ego asides".

Well, then, you won't put in the necessary practice and reach decent levels, doh. They are either not enough competitive, or too competitive within their small world...

Well you have to understand that this interview took place after Dazed was banned and IBP had been dismantled, so you can't really blame him for being lighthearted about it in the interview. The competitive aspect was well in the past to him. And then he goes on to say that even when they started seriously, something would happen and shit would break loose, so yeah there's the guy's ego, as well as individual discipline that are screwing up. Having played in fairly competitive CS 1.6 teams back in the day, I can definitely tell you it's very difficult to get over it and take things seriously when you're into that mindset.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 22:57:03
November 30 2015 22:56 GMT
#17
Nice article

I am not sure if RWS is the main cause for the american ''egos'' if you will(although it will obviously enhance it).
Egos are rampant in NA's other team games as well, League and Dota. Not sure about Halo or HOTS. Seems like a more general culture thing in Murrica but I can't be sure about that other. Doesn't explain canadian egos either but I suppose they live in the same internet culture.

I also wonder if the console gaming dominance has an influence too, many people play Halo, COD or Battlefield and the like on their Xbones I believe, that limits the talent pool quite a bit esp given the ping discrepancies between East and West.

Interestingly out of all the teams I believe nobody scrimmed in Europe before the major except LG to my knowledge. I am not sure how much a short bootcamp really helped them but it most certainly can't hurt.
WriterXiao8~~
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
November 30 2015 23:01 GMT
#18
I did write this before the change to LG's line-up was even announced.

I don't know that I blamed RWS for "egos" more than I blamed it for playstyle issues that a lot of NA players have. Ego is more to do with my section on team dynamic, which I think is a valid point in that players can't put aside differences for success.
Writer@WriterYamato
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
November 30 2015 23:46 GMT
#19
Does RWS make players more individualistic, or did individualistic preferences lead to the creation of the RWS system. Or is it unrelated.

Write a paper!
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 23:53:22
November 30 2015 23:51 GMT
#20
On December 01 2015 08:46 Djzapz wrote:
Does RWS make players more individualistic, or did individualistic preferences lead to the creation of the RWS system. Or is it unrelated.

Write a paper!

Unfortunately, almost all statistics that look at player performance have a bias towards being interpreted through an individualistic mindset. This is something that is apparent across video games from K/D/A metrics in shooters to GPM/XPM in MOBAs, and also in real sports with things like RBI, passer rating, goals scored, etc.

RWS is just particularly horrible, as noted in the article. ELO is simply a better way to measure player skill in a team-based game.
Writer@WriterYamato
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Online Event
00:00
LATAM SC2 League: FINALS
Liquipedia
Replay Cast
00:00
2025 GSL S2 - Playoffs
CranKy Ducklings158
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft541
RuFF_SC2 166
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 925
Sharp 55
NaDa 46
Icarus 11
Dota 2
monkeys_forever210
NeuroSwarm62
LuMiX1
League of Legends
Cuddl3bear11
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1578
Stewie2K1183
taco 336
Coldzera 148
PGG 28
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox584
Mew2King92
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor129
Other Games
shahzam1024
C9.Mang0836
JimRising 424
ViBE292
Maynarde194
Trikslyr73
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1501
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 98
• Berry_CruncH35
• OhrlRock 3
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler60
League of Legends
• Doublelift5708
• Stunt186
Other Games
• Scarra1328
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
7h 46m
RSL Revival
7h 46m
Harstem vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
WardiTV Invitational
9h 46m
ByuN vs Reynor
Clem vs MaxPax
OSC
10h 16m
Replay Cast
21h 46m
RSL Revival
1d 7h
Reynor vs Scarlett
ShoWTimE vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 12h
SOOP
2 days
Cure vs Zoun
SC Evo League
2 days
Road to EWC
2 days
[ Show More ]
SOOP Global
2 days
Future vs MaNa
Harstem vs Cham
BSL: ProLeague
2 days
Sziky vs JDConan
Cross vs MadiNho
Hawk vs Bonyth
Circuito Brasileiro de…
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Road to EWC
3 days
BSL: ProLeague
3 days
UltrA vs TBD
Dewalt vs TBD
Replay Cast
5 days
Online Event
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #3 - GSC
2025 GSL S2
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
BLAST Open Fall 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.