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North America: The Defining Differences

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Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-30 21:05:17
June 30 2015 20:31 GMT
#1
The poor results over the past handful of months from teams across North America has left many disillusioned and full of questions concerning the region's issues. Unable to conjure a squad capable of defeating top European competition, the continent is plagued with lineup changes and excuses following the end of each season. Unfortunately for North America, this is not a problem unique to the Counter-Strike: Global Offensive scene, but a seeming inevitability in many major esports titles.

Along with the ESL ESEA LAN Finals comes another opportunity for America to redeem itself, but as the top teams of Europe continue to evolve, the amount of resistance the North American squads will be able to put up remains in question. Before the event starts, let's take a look at what exactly is preventing America from achieving the potential that many observers see but rarely witness.

Note: Everything said below is of course a generalization. Every player and team is equipped with their own quirks; however, analyzing trends and general patterns is important when evaluating an entire group.





In a video attempting to explain why North Americans are less skilled than Europeans, us Sam "DaZeD" Marine mentioned "genetics" as a factor. He was on the right track.

It's not a coincidence that North Americans are less adept at team games than players from South Korea, China and Sweden. Yet if it's not a coincidence, what could be the issue? The most obvious answer that comes to mind is the culture both in and out of the game.

The U.S. is one of the most individualistic nations in the world, if not the most. From a young age we are drilled the notion of being true to ourselves and doing what's best for ourselves whilst paying no mind to the criticisms and antagonism of those around us. While it is a commendable ideal in some situations, e.g. counteracting bullying, a society that is far too individualistic runs the risk of fostering individuals with an inability to empathize and accept criticism.

Coupled with the above, the highly pro-capitalist sentiments of the nation that promote rivalry and competition have a major adverse effect. The idea of sacrificing oneself to achieve a greater good is lost on many, and more often than not, America churns out competitors who compete solely for themselves at the detriment of those around them.

Compare the culture of America to that of the three countries mentioned above: South Korea, China and Sweden. All three are highly collectivist nations while being considerably different in many political and social aspects. However, it is their understanding of working for the greater good that propels them to amazing heights in esports. It could be said that the fear of being a burden is a greater motivator than the desire to be individually impressive. In CS:GO, this can often manifest itself in various forms: taking up the main support role, proactively being the bait for your team, and sacrificing yourself for information—all notions that are lost in North America.

That is not to say individualism itself is bad—far from it, actually. But like anything else, a proper balance must be maintained, and to achieve that, players in the region must be more aware of their faults and the consequences of such.

Inside the game, North American players are often seen as full of ego and arrogance, and anyone who dares to question arrogance in competitive sports, electronic or otherwise, is often pelted with a flurry of bad role models as counterexamples. That's fine, I don't particularly see the situation as black and white and don’t classify all instances of arrogance as bad. But let's get something straight: first, do not conflate confidence with blind arrogance; and second, arrogance in the absence of accomplishments is idiocy and nothing else. The arrogance of a champion is of a completely different nature from the arrogance of those who have proven nothing.

Poor work ethic has also been an issue, and it shows most glaringly in the many missed smokes and horribly executed tactics. Going forward, if North American teams want any chance to compete, they will be required to hammer down the (boring) fundamentals, no questions asked.





Culture is only one half of the coin. For a scene to thrive, the proper infrastructure and support is also required, much of which is dependent on the player base within the region. However, let me preface this by saying that any player that brings up "lack of opportunities to play against Europeans" as a reason for the region's woes either does not understand the game as well as they think they do or are just searching for a cop out. The recent performances by both br Keyd Stars and au Vox Eminor (now Renegades)—not to mention America’s own former us iBUYPOWER squad—immediately render any such excuses trivial.

That being said, at some point, the lack of quality competition and experience can become a problem. During the peak of iBUYPOWER, when the squad proved to be well ahead of the rest of the region, more chances to face European teams could have benefited them immensely. That was an exception, however.

The multitude of issues that currently haunt North American teams will not be solved by merely changing the scenery. The former us compLexity Gaming squad exemplifies this fact as an extended bootcamp in Europe led to the further deterioration of the team, rather than its improvement.

Regardless, what is necessary going forward are more offline events like this year's Clutch Con that bring together all of the top competitors in the region and more. LAN tournaments are pivotal for developing new and inexperienced talent. Players need to get used to both the environment and the in-game differences when playing on LAN, moreso in CS:GO than perhaps any other game with the exception of those in the Fighting Game Community.

But once again, infrastructure is only one part of the equation, and unless teams across the continent can improve their own play and outlook of the game, there will be no amount of LANs and European practice partners that can save them. That leads us to our next topic.





By my observations, top European teams understand the game at a much deeper level than their American counterparts, which seems nutty when you realize how much players such as us Sean “sgares” Gares and ca Kory “semphis” Friesen actually understand when they serve as color commentators.

The difference between them and a top European in-game leader seems to lie in their comprehension of how to apply their knowledge. This tactical inferiority is a huge reason why no American team has been able to compete since the absence of DaZeD. All the talent in the world can only go so far on their own, and dk Team SoloMid is a perfect example of what happens when skill is backed by great in-game leading and when it isn’t (compare their recent results to those before dk Finn “karrigan” Andersen took over).

Below are some tidbits on a few major tactical facets of the game that North American teams need improving on.

ANTI-ECOS: North American teams play T-side anti-ecos poorly. It’s not rare to see them stroll straight into a stacked site. Quite frankly, their ability to gather information is inadequate.

There are generally two ways to play an anti-eco. The first is to force advantageous engagements. pl Virtus.pro will never hesitate to pressure middle on Cache or A on Mirage if they know the other team does not stack those areas and will restrict their opponents to long-range battles to capitalize on the inaccuracy of pistols.

The second method is to watch for any eco aggression and work picks in pairs. If the Counter-Terrorists choose to hold passively, securing map control and information is the obvious choice. se Fnatic will often send one player deeper into a site after gaining control of the map, and based upon that player’s intel, the team will select a site to hit. North American teams, however, have a tendency to either get picked off one by one or choose not to take advantage of their map control and instead walk into the more heavily defended site. You will rarely see an American player sacrifice himself (intentionally) for pertinent information.

MAP CONTROL: Map and mid control are major issues for North American teams, especially against European squads. They often forego it and instead rely heavily on four or five-man executes on their Terrorist sides or fumble around with clumsy defaults. Such an approach is easily punished by world class teams who will take a yard if given an inch. In most recent matches between an American and a European team, the European team is frequently in a position to quickly rotate and defend against the execute, which makes it improbably difficult to win the round. Perhaps it's time to take a page out of fr Team EnVyUs's coordinated flash plays.

COMMITMENT ISSUES: No, not that kind of commitment issue! Something the top five teams do better than any other is retreating when a situation looks bad and not needlessly forcing things. North American teams, however, commit to executes even in the most dire of situations, even when there is plenty of time left to spare and they forced a full rotation. Sometimes, you just gotta cancel.

CLOSING IT OUT: A testament of the American arrogance is our hunger for frags. North American teams have more trouble closing out rounds and maps than any other. The lack of discipline is infuriating. For the love of all things George W. Bush, stop carelessly peeking.





Once again, all of the above are generalizations and not every team exhibits every problem. For instance, us Luminosity Gaming and us Team Liquid are two squads who I believe have a great attitude towards the game, while us Cloud9 has been showing improvement overall.

It’s been five months since DaZeD and co. were banned from competitive play. After news of the incident broke, many in the scene—including myself—speculated it would require a full year for North America to regain its past form. Although what I wrote above was a collection of negativity, I believe that the region is currently in a prime spot to succeed.

America is receiving more organizational support than ever before, and with it has come increased domestic competition. The number of players now competing in the top echelons of the region has exploded, which is in stark contrast to the days coL and iBP were far ahead of the pack. With two Swedish players and br Keyd Stars—a fundamentally sound team—joining the ranks, Americans have more guides to reference for their development.

Incidentally, the bans of the former iBUYPOWER squad have allowed the players to pick up roles to help cultivate the fresh wave of talent now available, which will no doubt prove fruitful in the months to come. Not to mention, if/when the players are unbanned, America will be in its best position yet to challenge the world’s top teams.

But what is needed now is better leadership across the board. Players must acknowledge and improve their shortcomings. Standards need to rise. Practice must be taken seriously. In the end, the entire region must step up—together—because our ultimate goal is not Europe.

It is something greater.





Writer: Souma
Graphics: Thumbless
CSS: FO-nTTaX
Writer
NihiLStarcraft
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Denmark1413 Posts
June 30 2015 20:49 GMT
#2
Nice write-up, mirrors a lot of my thoughts.
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-30 20:55:09
June 30 2015 20:53 GMT
#3
One thing about the culture. Isn't or wasn't the gaming scene in NA culture way more console focused than PC? I think they are really good at COD and Halo right? I just think this kinda led to the lack of infastructure since gaming in NA was all about console games.

CS in Sweden is like Starcraft in Korea, while the NA esports scene grew of console games like Halo, CoD and Fighting games. Wasn't sc2 the first PC game at MLG?
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
climax
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1088 Posts
June 30 2015 21:25 GMT
#4
Gameplay portion is exactly how I feel everytime I watch NA CS.
Twitter: @JonathanRosales
Swampflare
Profile Joined March 2012
United States1201 Posts
June 30 2015 21:29 GMT
#5
One thing I've noticed in CS:GO in general is the lack of new talent. It seems like every current CS:GO professional is an old school 1.6 player. While CS:GO is still rather new compared to many esports, I think that new blood needs to be found for things to improve.
Liquipedia<FO-nTTaX> so i ordered a pizza to my house in the pizza service next to me and let them deliver [me] with the pizza
LastManProductions
Profile Joined September 2013
United States252 Posts
June 30 2015 21:49 GMT
#6
Excellent article. Someone needs to whip those NA boys into shape.
Graphicshttp://mattlast.wix.com/lastmanproduction
Thumbless
Profile Joined January 2015
United States24 Posts
June 30 2015 21:56 GMT
#7
I would also like to see less roster changes. It's hard to build a winning team if people are always coming and going.
GraphicsIf a picture is worth a thousand words, I'm a mouthy SoB.
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
June 30 2015 21:58 GMT
#8
On July 01 2015 05:53 Musicus wrote:
One thing about the culture. Isn't or wasn't the gaming scene in NA culture way more console focused than PC? I think they are really good at COD and Halo right? I just think this kinda led to the lack of infastructure since gaming in NA was all about console games.

CS in Sweden is like Starcraft in Korea, while the NA esports scene grew of console games like Halo, CoD and Fighting games. Wasn't sc2 the first PC game at MLG?

We actually have quite a thriving PC gaming player base in North America too. =s
Writer
tolkienfanatic
Profile Joined February 2015
United States110 Posts
June 30 2015 22:11 GMT
#9
I'd say one factor is that because of the size of the US and NA as a whole it is hard for there to be a centralized "scene" in the way that much smaller countries like Australia and most of the European countries have
Liquipedia@tolkienfanatic | Skype: tolkienfanatic | Liquipedia Staff | HLTV Staff | CS/FGC/RL
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
June 30 2015 22:15 GMT
#10
Europe as a whole is not centralized though. Tournaments are spread all across the continent.

Australia has... a lot smaller scene in both scale and support. Really no excuses to perform lower than them. =/
Writer
W2
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1177 Posts
June 30 2015 22:21 GMT
#11
any player that brings up "lack of opportunities to play against Europeans" as a reason for the region's woes either does not understand the game as well as they think they do or are just searching for a cop out.


That's a legitimate reason. Top NA teams learn more playing against VP than they would against some newly shuffled invite team.
And if there's anyone who thinks they understand the game more than they actually do, it's you.

Hi
Swampflare
Profile Joined March 2012
United States1201 Posts
June 30 2015 22:25 GMT
#12
On July 01 2015 07:15 Souma wrote:
Europe as a whole is not centralized though. Tournaments are spread all across the continent.

Australia has... a lot smaller scene in both scale and support. Really no excuses to perform lower than them. =/

But there's a lot more players in Europe. The most extreme example of something like this is Korea, where everybody is what, ~3 hours from Seoul at the maximum? It's certainly done wonders for (most) of their esports.
Liquipedia<FO-nTTaX> so i ordered a pizza to my house in the pizza service next to me and let them deliver [me] with the pizza
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-30 22:31:58
June 30 2015 22:26 GMT
#13
On July 01 2015 07:21 W2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
any player that brings up "lack of opportunities to play against Europeans" as a reason for the region's woes either does not understand the game as well as they think they do or are just searching for a cop out.


That's a legitimate reason. Top NA teams learn more playing against VP than they would against some newly shuffled invite team.
And if there's anyone who thinks they understand the game more than they actually do, it's you.


Yes because that worked out so well for complexity, right?

If your fundamentals are ass and you don't have the proper work ethic it doesn't matter who you play, you won't improve.

On July 01 2015 07:25 Swampflare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 07:15 Souma wrote:
Europe as a whole is not centralized though. Tournaments are spread all across the continent.

Australia has... a lot smaller scene in both scale and support. Really no excuses to perform lower than them. =/

But there's a lot more players in Europe. The most extreme example of something like this is Korea, where everybody is what, ~3 hours from Seoul at the maximum? It's certainly done wonders for (most) of their esports.

Chalking Korea's success to the size of the country is questionable. There's a ton of factors involved. Otherwise Japan would be amazing too.

Sure, if everyone lived in the same city that might help. However, that is not the case in Europe and those players travel frequently. There is no reason North American squads can't do the same.
Writer
zzdd
Profile Joined December 2010
United States484 Posts
June 30 2015 22:51 GMT
#14
On July 01 2015 07:26 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 07:21 W2 wrote:
any player that brings up "lack of opportunities to play against Europeans" as a reason for the region's woes either does not understand the game as well as they think they do or are just searching for a cop out.


That's a legitimate reason. Top NA teams learn more playing against VP than they would against some newly shuffled invite team.
And if there's anyone who thinks they understand the game more than they actually do, it's you.


Yes because that worked out so well for complexity, right?

If your fundamentals are ass and you don't have the proper work ethic it doesn't matter who you play, you won't improve.

So you are saying every NA team doesn't have the proper work ethic?
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-30 22:56:25
June 30 2015 22:56 GMT
#15
Once again, all of the above are generalizations and not every team exhibits every problem. For instance, us Luminosity Gaming and us Team Liquid are two squads who I believe have a great attitude towards the game
Writer
zzdd
Profile Joined December 2010
United States484 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-30 23:01:29
June 30 2015 22:59 GMT
#16
On July 01 2015 07:56 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
Once again, all of the above are generalizations and not every team exhibits every problem. For instance, us Luminosity Gaming and us Team Liquid are two squads who I believe have a great attitude towards the game

Then why couldn't playing international competition help them?
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-30 23:07:25
June 30 2015 23:06 GMT
#17
It will help them to an extent, but merely playing against European teams isn't suddenly going to make them as good as one.

International competition is not even a necessary component. South Korea built a legacy on the backs of their own players, within the confines of their own country. North American CS 1.6 teams were much more formidable even when they experienced much of the same setbacks. iBUYPOWER reached a peak that no other North American team is currently close to with even less international tournaments at the time.
Writer
gigios
Profile Joined June 2015
1 Post
June 30 2015 23:57 GMT
#18
Congratulations for the article! Really good, best regards from Brasil!
HonestTea *
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
5007 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-01 02:00:22
July 01 2015 01:52 GMT
#19
While I applaud the appearance of CSGO content on TL, I learned nothing informative from this article.

Reducing such a thing as culture into "NA = free, EU = collective" is a very poor and dangerous leap of logic.

I'm sorry, but "It's not a coincidence that North Americans are less adept at team games than players from South Korea, China and Sweden" is just plain ludicrous. By that logic NA people should be poorer than Europeans at other team endeavors, such as basketball, ice hockey, American football, or Mid-20th Century War.

"the highly pro-capitalist sentiments of the nation that promote rivalry and competition have a major adverse effect. The idea of sacrificing oneself to achieve a greater good is lost on many, and more often than not, America churns out competitors who compete solely for themselves at the detriment of those around them." Are you serious? Do you think Europe in 2015 is not pro-capitalist?

Please don't over-analyse. Sometimes in the world, different sports/games become popular in different countries in different ways, ways that are not easily explained by a reductive understanding of socio-economics and cultural history.

FWIW, from where I sit there are two main reasons why NA teams suck: Lack of teamwork and lack of situational awareness, compared to the top EU teams. Please pull away from the weird and ill-informed cultural views and focus on specific, in-game examples of why NA teams have poorer tactics than EU teams. And then this would have been an informative exercise.

Remember, an article needs to come with evidence. And in this world, the evidence is in the gameplay. Start with a gameplay-first approach and find the answers there. If you say NA teams have bad awareness, show me the game. If you say EU teams never peek recklessly, show me the game. And so on and so forth.

With love and apologies,
returns upon momentous occasions.
HonestTea *
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
5007 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-01 02:04:24
July 01 2015 01:58 GMT
#20
Sorry if that was mean please understand I love CS and TL and content on TL should be held to a higher standard, and I'm a grumpy old man who likes to yell.
returns upon momentous occasions.
METATERREN
Profile Blog Joined June 2015
71 Posts
July 01 2015 02:29 GMT
#21
Don't apologize rofl
@METATERREN
METATERREN
Profile Blog Joined June 2015
71 Posts
July 01 2015 02:29 GMT
#22
I will coach NA CS:GO to greatness.
@METATERREN
xxsaznpride
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States506 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-01 02:44:14
July 01 2015 02:42 GMT
#23
Didn't bring up how all the top EU players are part of a Facebook group that can quickly and easily coordinate scrims and discuss their faults and successes afterward. Last I heard, Gares was saying he wanted to make something like that for the NA scene, and that when NA teams scrim, they don't actually talk about anything; they just win/lose and say bye bye.

Edit: not all of the pros are from 1.6. Shroud said in an interview that he started with Source and kinda just threw all his time into it.
“Life is too short to embrace a woman I don’t love. I also think a woman’s life is too short to be embraced by a man she doesn’t love.” | CSGO: Cure Moonlight
roronoe
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada1527 Posts
July 01 2015 02:58 GMT
#24
It was briefly mentioned in the article, but this is noticeable across all esports titles, whether it's CSGO, starcraft, dota, and LoL? (I dont watch league)

It's always been Asia > Europe > NA

Only dota looks like it MIGHT be bucking the trend
The Purgatory of Endless Depths
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
July 01 2015 03:01 GMT
#25
On July 01 2015 11:42 xxsaznpride wrote:
Didn't bring up how all the top EU players are part of a Facebook group that can quickly and easily coordinate scrims and discuss their faults and successes afterward. Last I heard, Gares was saying he wanted to make something like that for the NA scene, and that when NA teams scrim, they don't actually talk about anything; they just win/lose and say bye bye.

Edit: not all of the pros are from 1.6. Shroud said in an interview that he started with Source and kinda just threw all his time into it.


Writer
METATERREN
Profile Blog Joined June 2015
71 Posts
July 01 2015 03:14 GMT
#26
On July 01 2015 11:42 xxsaznpride wrote:
Didn't bring up how all the top EU players are part of a Facebook group that can quickly and easily coordinate scrims and discuss their faults and successes afterward. Last I heard, Gares was saying he wanted to make something like that for the NA scene, and that when NA teams scrim, they don't actually talk about anything; they just win/lose and say bye bye.

Edit: not all of the pros are from 1.6. Shroud said in an interview that he started with Source and kinda just threw all his time into it.



https://www.facebook.com/pages/ESport-Counter-Strike

Start using it for amateur matches plus plus

@METATERREN
SlixSC
Profile Joined October 2012
666 Posts
July 01 2015 04:48 GMT
#27
On July 01 2015 10:52 HonestTea wrote:
By that logic NA people should be poorer than Europeans at other team endeavors, such as basketball, ice hockey, American football.


False analogy. In CS:GO the player numbers across Europe and NA are somewhat comparable (I would say at most 1:2 or 1:3), whereas virtually nobody outside of NA cares about basketball, ice hockey or american football.
Leafty
Profile Joined July 2012
France84 Posts
July 01 2015 05:21 GMT
#28
I need to rewatch some ESL POV streams to confirm this, but NA players seem to lack discipline (related to their bad work ethic) even when in-game. When someone asks for sound in EU teams, no one talks for five seconds. I haven't witnessed it with NA teams.
HonestTea *
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
5007 Posts
July 01 2015 05:42 GMT
#29
On July 01 2015 13:48 SlixSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 10:52 HonestTea wrote:
By that logic NA people should be poorer than Europeans at other team endeavors, such as basketball, ice hockey, American football.


False analogy. In CS:GO the player numbers across Europe and NA are somewhat comparable (I would say at most 1:2 or 1:3), whereas virtually nobody outside of NA cares about basketball, ice hockey or american football.



The premise was "America churns out competitors who compete solely for themselves at the detriment of those around them."

This premise is untrue when we examine the teamwork that Americans display in basketball, hockey, football. America produces lots of people who excel at being a part of a team. Not just in the sports I mentioned, but also in the the corporate world. And in military.

BTW in many parts of Europe either basketball or ice hockey is very popular and those countries are in direct competition with US or Canada in international competitions.
returns upon momentous occasions.
AntiGrav1ty
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2310 Posts
July 01 2015 06:39 GMT
#30
I think generalized statements about whole continents should not be made based on observations in a game. Especially since EU consists of dozens of different cultures and societies. In a lot of aspects individualism is a lot more prominent than it is in NA and I'm certain there is aspects where it is the other way around as well. In the whole paragraph about culture you jump to conclusions pretty hard. ("The fear of being a burden" for swedes seems very far fetched for example).

With that being said, a lot of NA players definitely do care more about individual success like stats and kills. You can see that from watching streams and matches.

I think there is a more specific reason to that: ESEA. Every single competitor in NA plays on Esea. Stats and RWS is everything there. Players do everything to get RWS. People get judged by it. People are so worried about their RWS that it changes the way they play in a very negative way. The only way you get high RWS is by killing people or defusing/planting. It promotes fraghunting and baiting to an extreme and a lot of up and coming players still have that ingrained in their playstyle. I think it's not a coincidence that Dazed was the best IGL/had the best chance of winning with his team. He never really liked playing ESEA pugs and he never liked the pug-star type players in his team no matter how hard they can frag.

ESEA is pretty much irrelevant in EU. People either play matchmaking or face-it or they scrim on private servers or community servers. Individual stats don't get saved on a public profile for everyone to see. RWS is not a thing. Only getting better and winning is.

Other than that this was a very nice read. Haven't seen many writeups like this for CS:Go yet.
www.twitch.tv/antigrav1ty
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
July 01 2015 07:08 GMT
#31
On July 01 2015 15:39 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
I think generalized statements about whole continents should not be made based on observations in a game. Especially since EU consists of dozens of different cultures and societies. In a lot of aspects individualism is a lot more prominent than it is in NA and I'm certain there is aspects where it is the other way around as well. In the whole paragraph about culture you jump to conclusions pretty hard. ("The fear of being a burden" for swedes seems very far fetched for example).

With that being said, a lot of NA players definitely do care more about individual success like stats and kills. You can see that from watching streams and matches.

I think there is a more specific reason to that: ESEA. Every single competitor in NA plays on Esea. Stats and RWS is everything there. Players do everything to get RWS. People get judged by it. People are so worried about their RWS that it changes the way they play in a very negative way. The only way you get high RWS is by killing people or defusing/planting. It promotes fraghunting and baiting to an extreme and a lot of up and coming players still have that ingrained in their playstyle. I think it's not a coincidence that Dazed was the best IGL/had the best chance of winning with his team. He never really liked playing ESEA pugs and he never liked the pug-star type players in his team no matter how hard they can frag.

ESEA is pretty much irrelevant in EU. People either play matchmaking or face-it or they scrim on private servers or community servers. Individual stats don't get saved on a public profile for everyone to see. RWS is not a thing. Only getting better and winning is.

Other than that this was a very nice read. Haven't seen many writeups like this for CS:Go yet.

There isn't a single country in Europe, except maybe the UK, that promotes individualism more than the U.S. and a quick look at the political and social policies can tell you that. But don't worry, I never made any generalizations about Europe, just Sweden. =)

Anyway yes, the ESEA thing may be an issue, but you're forgetting an important question: Why? Why do Americans care about stats? This attachment to statistical prominence is not developed in a vacuum. Place a group of Japanese players in ESEA and let's see how they react to RWS (I assure you they wouldn't care nearly as much).
Writer
illsick
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1770 Posts
July 01 2015 07:55 GMT
#32
Honestly, I just think it's culture difference. It doesn't really matter what esports game (maybe unless console, like smash or probably CoD) that NA falls behind in; like starcraft. Gaming hardcore or professionally seems more looked down upon. It's hard to go all-in on something that would not benefit you to the future. I know this article is suppose to be specific to counter-strike but it could be said about the other esports titles as well. When I look at the NA teams, a lot of them are playing on the side with school or work. Just now, I see some committing more like a full time job. Fnatic, NiP, NV, NaVi, and VP all seem to be full time gamers from the get go.

North America is really just two countries (Canada and USA) and I think population is not necessarily irrelevant but size doesn't make you good at certain sports. Like in soccer, Uruguay being a very small country produced some of the best talents and does better than most higher populated countries But to clump all these European countries together, it seems like a higher chance for one of the teams from those countries to be carrying the flag for Europe. The UK doesn't have any top teams in CS, but it doesn't matter they're part of the EU scene. So if American teams place badly, it's an auto fail for NA because pretty much one country is carrying the flag for NA (some teams in NA having a few Canadians). If Na'Vi placed lower than some of the American teams, it doesn't matter because Fnatic won the whole tournament for the Euros.

But yes, the NA scene is weaker than the Euro scene. But it's a two-country scene versus a scene that includes many countries. UK, Spain, Russia, etc have the same infrastructure and practice resource as other countries in Europe.
you live and you learn
illsick
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1770 Posts
July 01 2015 08:04 GMT
#33
On July 01 2015 16:08 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 15:39 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
I think generalized statements about whole continents should not be made based on observations in a game. Especially since EU consists of dozens of different cultures and societies. In a lot of aspects individualism is a lot more prominent than it is in NA and I'm certain there is aspects where it is the other way around as well. In the whole paragraph about culture you jump to conclusions pretty hard. ("The fear of being a burden" for swedes seems very far fetched for example).

With that being said, a lot of NA players definitely do care more about individual success like stats and kills. You can see that from watching streams and matches.

I think there is a more specific reason to that: ESEA. Every single competitor in NA plays on Esea. Stats and RWS is everything there. Players do everything to get RWS. People get judged by it. People are so worried about their RWS that it changes the way they play in a very negative way. The only way you get high RWS is by killing people or defusing/planting. It promotes fraghunting and baiting to an extreme and a lot of up and coming players still have that ingrained in their playstyle. I think it's not a coincidence that Dazed was the best IGL/had the best chance of winning with his team. He never really liked playing ESEA pugs and he never liked the pug-star type players in his team no matter how hard they can frag.

ESEA is pretty much irrelevant in EU. People either play matchmaking or face-it or they scrim on private servers or community servers. Individual stats don't get saved on a public profile for everyone to see. RWS is not a thing. Only getting better and winning is.

Other than that this was a very nice read. Haven't seen many writeups like this for CS:Go yet.

There isn't a single country in Europe, except maybe the UK, that promotes individualism more than the U.S. and a quick look at the political and social policies can tell you that. But don't worry, I never made any generalizations about Europe, just Sweden. =)

Anyway yes, the ESEA thing may be an issue, but you're forgetting an important question: Why? Why do Americans care about stats? This attachment to statistical prominence is not developed in a vacuum. Place a group of Japanese players in ESEA and let's see how they react to RWS (I assure you they wouldn't care nearly as much).


Who's to say that the American teams at the top level care about RWS?

RWS is a stat for people to look at when they pug. When you are scrimming as a team, players primary focus isn't RWS (or shouldn't).

you live and you learn
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
July 01 2015 08:12 GMT
#34
Top teams definitely do not care about RWS. I believe what people are trying to say is that that mentality carries over to the pro scene which results in the kind of puggy and undisciplined play NA is renowned for.
Writer
DannyJ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States5110 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-01 10:22:16
July 01 2015 10:01 GMT
#35
I think the individualistic nature of NA does greatly effect the E-sports scene, but not exactly because that makes players "selfish". It probably has more to do with the fact that such a mind set creates an culture/environment where having enough time, support, and reason to work hard enough to get to the highest levels of the game isn't feasible or worthwhile.

Maybe people in NA just focus more of their energy into actually MAKING almost all of the E-Sports games they suck at
HonestTea *
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
5007 Posts
July 01 2015 14:58 GMT
#36
On July 01 2015 16:08 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 15:39 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
I think generalized statements about whole continents should not be made based on observations in a game. Especially since EU consists of dozens of different cultures and societies. In a lot of aspects individualism is a lot more prominent than it is in NA and I'm certain there is aspects where it is the other way around as well. In the whole paragraph about culture you jump to conclusions pretty hard. ("The fear of being a burden" for swedes seems very far fetched for example).

With that being said, a lot of NA players definitely do care more about individual success like stats and kills. You can see that from watching streams and matches.

I think there is a more specific reason to that: ESEA. Every single competitor in NA plays on Esea. Stats and RWS is everything there. Players do everything to get RWS. People get judged by it. People are so worried about their RWS that it changes the way they play in a very negative way. The only way you get high RWS is by killing people or defusing/planting. It promotes fraghunting and baiting to an extreme and a lot of up and coming players still have that ingrained in their playstyle. I think it's not a coincidence that Dazed was the best IGL/had the best chance of winning with his team. He never really liked playing ESEA pugs and he never liked the pug-star type players in his team no matter how hard they can frag.

ESEA is pretty much irrelevant in EU. People either play matchmaking or face-it or they scrim on private servers or community servers. Individual stats don't get saved on a public profile for everyone to see. RWS is not a thing. Only getting better and winning is.

Other than that this was a very nice read. Haven't seen many writeups like this for CS:Go yet.

There isn't a single country in Europe, except maybe the UK, that promotes individualism more than the U.S. and a quick look at the political and social policies can tell you that. But don't worry, I never made any generalizations about Europe, just Sweden. =)

Anyway yes, the ESEA thing may be an issue, but you're forgetting an important question: Why? Why do Americans care about stats? This attachment to statistical prominence is not developed in a vacuum. Place a group of Japanese players in ESEA and let's see how they react to RWS (I assure you they wouldn't care nearly as much).


Are you really doubling down on your cultural theory.
returns upon momentous occasions.
illsick
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1770 Posts
July 01 2015 16:25 GMT
#37
On July 01 2015 17:12 Souma wrote:
Top teams definitely do not care about RWS. I believe what people are trying to say is that that mentality carries over to the pro scene which results in the kind of puggy and undisciplined play NA is renowned for.


I don't think that RWS mentality carries over; chasing frags or pushing into sites by themselves to get better RWS is not something I see teams doing. When you are scrimming, it's different than pugging, obviously. ESEA provides resources for both. If RWS was removed, I don't see it impacting anything at all at an organized team level.

When I watch C9 or even liquid (recently), they have executed strats with flashes and molotovs. CLG does look a bit puggish but maybe that's just their style and I see nV have a puggish style too. When you lose, you are always going to look sloppy.
you live and you learn
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
July 01 2015 16:58 GMT
#38
If RWS was removed, I don't see it impacting anything at all at an organized team level.

That's exactly what I implied. Even without stats, players here would still have a tendency to hunt for frags since it's just how they play (and even without RWS, there's KDA).

Also, Cloud9 is one of the biggest culprits of carelessly peeking. Go watch their recent Gfinity matches. It's a huge issue that's been haunting professional NA teams.
Writer
Crownlol
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States3726 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-02 15:50:59
July 02 2015 15:50 GMT
#39
NA up 3-0 over the top 3 EU teams in ESL ESEA LAN, what witchcraft did this article weave?
shaGuar :: elemeNt :: XeqtR :: naikon :: method
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-02 15:57:01
July 02 2015 15:56 GMT
#40
Edit: wrong thread
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
tolkienfanatic
Profile Joined February 2015
United States110 Posts
July 02 2015 16:28 GMT
#41
On July 01 2015 11:58 roronoe wrote:
It was briefly mentioned in the article, but this is noticeable across all esports titles, whether it's CSGO, starcraft, dota, and LoL? (I dont watch league)

It's always been Asia > Europe > NA

Only dota looks like it MIGHT be bucking the trend


Well, Asia is certainly not a big player in the CS scene currently
Liquipedia@tolkienfanatic | Skype: tolkienfanatic | Liquipedia Staff | HLTV Staff | CS/FGC/RL
Crownlol
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States3726 Posts
July 02 2015 20:09 GMT
#42
On July 03 2015 01:28 tolkienfanatic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 11:58 roronoe wrote:
It was briefly mentioned in the article, but this is noticeable across all esports titles, whether it's CSGO, starcraft, dota, and LoL? (I dont watch league)

It's always been Asia > Europe > NA

Only dota looks like it MIGHT be bucking the trend


Well, Asia is certainly not a big player in the CS scene currently



It's certainly not Asia > Europe > NA in SSBM or CS...
shaGuar :: elemeNt :: XeqtR :: naikon :: method
roronoe
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada1527 Posts
July 03 2015 21:56 GMT
#43
On July 03 2015 05:09 Crownlol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2015 01:28 tolkienfanatic wrote:
On July 01 2015 11:58 roronoe wrote:
It was briefly mentioned in the article, but this is noticeable across all esports titles, whether it's CSGO, starcraft, dota, and LoL? (I dont watch league)

It's always been Asia > Europe > NA

Only dota looks like it MIGHT be bucking the trend


Well, Asia is certainly not a big player in the CS scene currently



It's certainly not Asia > Europe > NA in SSBM or CS...


Thats cause they don't play those games. The point is... if they DO play those games its more than likely they will dominate them as well.
The Purgatory of Endless Depths
METATERREN
Profile Blog Joined June 2015
71 Posts
July 03 2015 22:03 GMT
#44
USA understands that the team is the ultimate culmination of each individual's actions
@METATERREN
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
July 03 2015 22:12 GMT
#45
Nice read. Was fun to read.
Fun to read about the america culture from an american to.
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