EPTand thanks to the wonderful lack of stopwatch it turned into a complete anti-climax as it went win-draw-draw and the commentators didn't even know if it was over or not ><
Edit: spoilered incase someone still wants to watch it.
General Discussion - Page 157
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Please be advised: We will be closing this General thread in 24 hours. It will remain searchable. After that we will require new threads to discuss topics. Questions should go in the stickied Q&A thread, screenshots and PotG will go in the PotG sticky, QQ/Rage/Complaints should go in the QQ/Rage thread. If you want to talk about maps or strategies open a new thread. Any comments or concerns will be logged please forward them to ZeromuS. This new forum is still fluid so we will try this out. General TL rules will still apply to new threads. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22187 Posts
Edit: spoilered incase someone still wants to watch it. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17402 Posts
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/overwatch-branded-truck-gets-in-accident-at-pax/1100-6439140/ On April 24 2016 18:24 Gorsameth wrote: Well last night was the Penny Arcade Overwatch battle + Show Spoiler + and thanks to the wonderful lack of stopwatch it turned into a complete anti-climax as it went win-draw-draw and the commentators didn't even know if it was over or not >< Edit: spoilered incase someone still wants to watch it. better than at Blizzcon 2016. Let's see if Blizzard reacts... | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On April 24 2016 18:24 Gorsameth wrote: Well last night was the Penny Arcade Overwatch battle + Show Spoiler + and thanks to the wonderful lack of stopwatch it turned into a complete anti-climax as it went win-draw-draw and the commentators didn't even know if it was over or not >< Edit: spoilered incase someone still wants to watch it. So just like the early overwatch tournaments using stop watch  . + Show Spoiler +Commentators also just said they are waiting for admin decision, just not wanting to announce the wrong winner. And the crowd seems to have loved it anyway. Someone should have told tycho the hook combo though heh. Don't want to defend sudden death system as it is right now, since it is super bad. Its probably so bad that at some point higher ranks will just start using their own system. But stopwatch isn't really good either, as it sometimes turns the second game into something you can truly call anti climatic. Hey we had a good time, unpack the stall comp and spam Ice walls. I would love a system where it would be checkpoints over stopwatch. Anything to prevent a sudden death basically, without making the stopwatch to important. Maybe even just give points for completing one minute faster then the enemy team. Which would make almost every game be played out to the end and only really even maps go to sudden death. But whatever ~.~ its something they will work on post release so gotta live with it for some time. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22187 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On April 24 2016 18:24 Gorsameth wrote: Well last night was the Penny Arcade Overwatch battle + Show Spoiler + and thanks to the wonderful lack of stopwatch it turned into a complete anti-climax as it went win-draw-draw and the commentators didn't even know if it was over or not >< Edit: spoilered incase someone still wants to watch it. It wasn't an anticlimax at all. In fact it was a last second hold with a clutch res or else it would have gone to another map. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17402 Posts
Beta re-opens and includes pre-order customers on Monday May 2nd and 4PM PDT. For players in Europe that effectively means May 3rd. http://us.battle.net/overwatch/en/blog/20100169/ | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22187 Posts
On April 26 2016 23:13 Tenks wrote: I hope Blizzard finds a way to make their competitive mode work well at the highest levels. I really, really dislike stopwatch and I feel maps should be about completion of the objective as the binary win condition. Right now I don't think its perfect because at the highest level attack almost always wins but hopefully they can tune and tweak so attack only wins maybe 60% of the time. Then you still have a large selection of draw games because both lose or both win. The easiest way is to simply remove the attacker/defender modes and not create situations where you can tie. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On April 26 2016 23:20 Gorsameth wrote: Then you still have a large selection of draw games because both lose or both win. The easiest way is to simply remove the attacker/defender modes and not create situations where you can tie. ?? The games aren't draw they go to sudden death KOTH | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22187 Posts
On April 26 2016 23:25 Tenks wrote: ?? The games aren't draw they go to sudden death KOTH Escort is attacker/defender with sides switching. Both can win the attack or lose the attack. This is a draw. A single game on a single map cannot draw but since 2 games are played per map so they can draw. The solution is to not have an attacker/defender so you don't need 2 games per map for equality and therefor eliminate the ability to draw. Game modes like the current Control (where both teams fight over a single point 3 times) do not tie in the overarching sense. Someone earlier proposed a tug of war mode where both teams fight over a payload, trying to escort it towards the opponents side of a mirrored map. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On April 26 2016 23:33 Gorsameth wrote: Escort is attacker/defender with sides switching. Both can win the attack or lose the attack. This is a draw. A single game on a single map cannot draw but since 2 games are played per map so they can draw. The solution is to not have an attacker/defender so you don't need 2 games per map for equality and therefor eliminate the ability to draw. Game modes like the current Control (where both teams fight over a single point 3 times) do not tie in the overarching sense. Someone earlier proposed a tug of war mode where both teams fight over a payload, trying to escort it towards the opponents side of a mirrored map. CS also has attacker and defender an it works just fine. Granted rounds are faster so you can have more of them. Still those game modes with attacking and defending are at the core of the game. Makes no sense to delete them just because you dont want draws. They have to make sure though that attackers and defenders have a similar win chance. Otherwise you can end up in situations where for example the attacker always wins and the Control decider becomes the only important map of the match. Or they do stopwatch but apparently viewers dont like that. The tug of war idea can lead to overly long games and real stalemates. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22187 Posts
On April 27 2016 00:02 Redox wrote: CS also has attacker and defender an it works just fine. Granted rounds are faster so you can have more of them. Still those game modes with attacking and defending are at the core of the game. Makes no sense to delete them just because you dont want draws. They have to make sure though that attackers and defenders have a similar win chance. Otherwise you can end up in situations where for example the attacker always wins and the Control decider becomes the only important map of the match. Or they do stopwatch but apparently viewers dont like that. The tug of war idea can lead to overly long games and real stalemates. Tug of war could simply be X minutes or until a side has completely pushed it to the end of the lane. Unless the payload is dead center at the end your having a very very very low chance of draws. And yes CS is the obvious example to use but as you said they run best of 30 rounds. That large number prevents a lot of ties (plus there is more games played if needed). Overwatch only uses 2 rounds which Hugely increases the chance of a tie, regardless of the win chance. | ||
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Bacillus
Finland2034 Posts
It wasn't awfully bad due to relatively big skill differences between teams and a solid league structure without too many matches that need a decisive winner. A lot of league matches finished with 2-2 scoreline over two maps and it was fine. League decider finals and such could extend to further maps if neither team managed to win a whole map, but it wasn't really that bad on a single online match. Meanwhile a modern LAN event playoff bracket would have been a total nightmare to schedule without some kind of tiebreaker method. As the game resembles RTS game, you can't really compare different paths to victory in any decisive way (no stopwatch kind of a thing). I think the game would have needed some kind of a penalty shootout tiebreaker mode to force a winner after certain amount of rounds have been played. For overwatch, I think some kind of a stopwatch or symmertic score based tiebreaker is necessary. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On April 26 2016 23:33 Gorsameth wrote: Escort is attacker/defender with sides switching. Both can win the attack or lose the attack. This is a draw. A single game on a single map cannot draw but since 2 games are played per map so they can draw. But like I said they addressed the draw situation and that is through a sudden death KOTH which, IMO, is pretty exciting for both the player and the viewer. The problem lies in if almost every single game goes to sudden death which makes it not very exciting to play or watch. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22187 Posts
On April 27 2016 02:52 Tenks wrote: But like I said they addressed the draw situation and that is through a sudden death KOTH which, IMO, is pretty exciting for both the player and the viewer. The problem lies in if almost every single game goes to sudden death which makes it not very exciting to play or watch. missunderstood your KOTH reference :p Yes it works but it imo feels so much less clean because of separate rules being stacked no to the base clean game (stopwatch for attacker draw, extra game for defender draws) compared to no attacker/defender where it is clearly visible that team X won at the end of the game. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13405 Posts
One is to provide a stopwatch like format. When a team wins attack they set a time, if the other team also wins attack you go to KotH. However, in Stopwatch light format for every X seconds you win the attacking round you get START koth with Y % on the progress bar. For example some people say within 15 seconds no one gets a benefit, within 30 you get 10% filled, 45 you get 20% so on. Whether this is really fair or not I dont know. But apparently W/L is close to 50% on payload according to blizz anyway. W/L on control maps like hana and anubis is more interesting. I think those benefit the defender on the 2nd point, with the exception of a quick snowball where the attackers take point A without ultimates then sweep point B quickly after saving their ultimates before defenders get their ult charges through a coordinated push. This is especially applicable on anubis now that the flanks are both opened up in a patch a while ago. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On April 27 2016 04:10 Tenks wrote: My issue with the weighted KOTH is that it abstracts away the binary nature of the previous stages of "Win or Lose." There is still a "Win better" format. Not quite as harsh as pure stopwatch, obviously, but it still rewards bonus points for winning faster when I'd prefer a format where winning the map itself is the only objective. I understand the gutting nature of if you just cakewalked through their defense and then you lost a gritty overtime defense and suddenly you're at 0/0 on KOTH but I suppose my response to that would be "Well you should have won." It isn't like in a bo3 in any sport if you win 100-0 and then lose 99-100 the final game isn't suddenly started at 20-0 just because you won the first game better. What you do not account for here is that the chance of winning on offence and defense will never be the same. Example: if it is easier to attack than to defend and winning on attack becomes almost standard for somewhat evenly matched teams, the speed at which each team won the attack marks the actual performance difference. If you do not factor that in you run the risk that those first rounds before the KOTH decider become entirely pointless to play and to watch. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On April 28 2016 03:42 Redox wrote: What you do not account for here is that the chance of winning on offence and defense will never be the same. Example: if it is easier to attack than to defend and winning on attack becomes almost standard for somewhat evenly matched teams, the speed at which each team won the attack marks the actual performance difference. If you do not factor that in you run the risk that those first rounds before the KOTH decider become entirely pointless to play and to watch. I do account for it because I said like a dozen posts up that Blizzard needs to try to make it so attack only wins maybe 60% of the time if they wish for their format to succeed | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
At some point people get better at attacking, because as soon as you break a defensive position, usually by lucking out on defense messing up, defenders tend to feed before they learn where you gather safely. After this defending actually gets stronger again. But because maps are balanced so noobs don't full hold 100% of the time, attacker side is heavy favored. Only solution would be pro maps for when you reach heroic. But atm maps are actually way to small for the speed some characters have or well all thanks to Lucio. So just nerf Lucios speed boost and make him good at cqc again. Because the speed Aura is what makes you only be able to setup around 2 defensive positions. So those 2 have to be almost unbreakable in order for defense to work. And maps usually only have 2 strong ones too close together to take both. So you usually have just one spot to win as defense and thats not enough if the attackers manage to rush together. Maybe the answer is to have a torb turret + teleport at the next point ready or to not use ults to hold your position, so you can actually counter rush them and then take your defensive position. No one knows whats the right answer atm, we just know that usually in fps games attacker is favored and because we belief it, it actually makes attacking easier. Doesn't help that defenders usually try to hold a position at all cost. So they end up in that snowball position since attackers used their ults earlier and have them back up earlier again. Overwatch has some great stall heroes though, so maybe in a year people will learn how to make use of them to take more defensive positions. | ||
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