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On March 22 2014 21:14 Arnstein wrote:
Do pro players in Melee co-operate with Nintendo on the new Smash Bros? Do they ask pro's for advice etc? They really should, as a new really good competetive Smash Bros would be epic!
Haha, no. Nintendo has actively tried to prevent smash from being a competative game. They've tried many times to stop tournaments from streaming, including MLG. Not only that, they removed all the mechanics that made melee really fast (wavedashing, l-cancling, ect.) for Brawl and added things like random tripping that can't be turned off and lowered the overall pace of the game. Sakuri himself even said that he didn't like that smash was played competitively, he wants it to be a family friendly casual game and the new smash bros will be more of that.
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United States10328 Posts
On March 22 2014 21:05 SelimSC wrote:
Why didn't Bunny and Mana get this kind of epic video? I want this awesomeness everytime TL picks someone up.
A third party, Samox, who made the Smash Bros Documentary, made the video for TL.
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On March 23 2014 04:08 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 21:14 Arnstein wrote:
Do pro players in Melee co-operate with Nintendo on the new Smash Bros? Do they ask pro's for advice etc? They really should, as a new really good competetive Smash Bros would be epic! Haha, no. Nintendo has actively tried to prevent smash from being a competative game. They've tried many times to stop tournaments from streaming, including MLG. Not only that, they removed all the mechanics that made melee really fast (wavedashing, l-cancling, ect.) for Brawl and added things like random tripping that can't be turned off and lowered the overall pace of the game. Sakuri himself even said that he didn't like that smash was played competitively, he wants it to be a family friendly casual game and the new smash bros will be more of that.
Why?!? I mean, I love Nintendo and their games, but sometimes I just don't understand how stupid they can be.
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On March 23 2014 06:45 Arnstein wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 04:08 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On March 22 2014 21:14 Arnstein wrote:
Do pro players in Melee co-operate with Nintendo on the new Smash Bros? Do they ask pro's for advice etc? They really should, as a new really good competetive Smash Bros would be epic! Haha, no. Nintendo has actively tried to prevent smash from being a competative game. They've tried many times to stop tournaments from streaming, including MLG. Not only that, they removed all the mechanics that made melee really fast (wavedashing, l-cancling, ect.) for Brawl and added things like random tripping that can't be turned off and lowered the overall pace of the game. Sakuri himself even said that he didn't like that smash was played competitively, he wants it to be a family friendly casual game and the new smash bros will be more of that. Why?!? I mean, I love Nintendo and their games, but sometimes I just don't understand how stupid they can be.
Control, the designer must of been a casual =P. Problem is that any game can be taken to a competitive level(COMPETITIVE TIC TAC TOE MOTHER FER!), just many aren't worth it to do so.
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On March 23 2014 06:45 Arnstein wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 04:08 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On March 22 2014 21:14 Arnstein wrote:
Do pro players in Melee co-operate with Nintendo on the new Smash Bros? Do they ask pro's for advice etc? They really should, as a new really good competetive Smash Bros would be epic! Haha, no. Nintendo has actively tried to prevent smash from being a competative game. They've tried many times to stop tournaments from streaming, including MLG. Not only that, they removed all the mechanics that made melee really fast (wavedashing, l-cancling, ect.) for Brawl and added things like random tripping that can't be turned off and lowered the overall pace of the game. Sakuri himself even said that he didn't like that smash was played competitively, he wants it to be a family friendly casual game and the new smash bros will be more of that. Why?!? I mean, I love Nintendo and their games, but sometimes I just don't understand how stupid they can be.
I think the main reason is to maintain their "family friendly" image. Nintendo is scared that competitive scene will scare off casuals from buying the game. They want it to be a casual game, and a pro scene means it isn't that.
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On March 23 2014 06:45 Arnstein wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 04:08 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On March 22 2014 21:14 Arnstein wrote:
Do pro players in Melee co-operate with Nintendo on the new Smash Bros? Do they ask pro's for advice etc? They really should, as a new really good competetive Smash Bros would be epic! Haha, no. Nintendo has actively tried to prevent smash from being a competative game. They've tried many times to stop tournaments from streaming, including MLG. Not only that, they removed all the mechanics that made melee really fast (wavedashing, l-cancling, ect.) for Brawl and added things like random tripping that can't be turned off and lowered the overall pace of the game. Sakuri himself even said that he didn't like that smash was played competitively, he wants it to be a family friendly casual game and the new smash bros will be more of that. Why?!? I mean, I love Nintendo and their games, but sometimes I just don't understand how stupid they can be.
Well, they've taken Tripping out of Smash 4. That's a step forward. And they're getting input from Namco for Smash 4, and Namco does know competitive fighters pretty well with Tekken and Soul Calibur.
On the other hand, they took out edge hogging, a very big tool used in a lot of matches.
But I'll take that trade.
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Couldn't they just have a "party mode" and a "competitive mode" keep everyone happy? Is this too hard to accomplish?
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They would just be the same thing though. Easy to learn hard to master, they just think when the teenage boy gets gud and starts smashing mum and dad people are going to get pissed.
You really think anyone without any concept of Melee's mechanics / scene is not going to enjoy themselves? They sure as hell wont be wavedashing / lcanceling / whatever either.
Its just a case of nintendo being nintentards
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On March 23 2014 09:35 nikj wrote:
Couldn't they just have a "party mode" and a "competitive mode" keep everyone happy? Is this too hard to accomplish?
I think Smash Melee itself for many people only was a party mode. That is why it is such a perfect game and I wish game designers would learn that it is entirely possible to combine the two.
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I don't really understand the distinction between the two tbh.
In the end the game has to be fun (party mode) and if it has enough depth there will be a interesting competitive scene aswell, no?
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This is fucking cool. Liquid` doing the right things yo.
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Belgium6755 Posts
On March 23 2014 21:32 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 09:35 nikj wrote:
Couldn't they just have a "party mode" and a "competitive mode" keep everyone happy? Is this too hard to accomplish? I think Smash Melee itself for many people only was a party mode. That is why it is such a perfect game and I wish game designers would learn that it is entirely possible to combine the two.
Naz, if this whole ssbm liquid team was your idea...
I'm gonna come highfive you and buy you a beer next time I visit tlhq. You awesome son of a bitch.
Seriously though, who came up with this? I've just started getting back into melee and now this happens! Too perfect.
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Belgium6755 Posts
k who are we kidding lets get hammered
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I am so happy right now. I can't wait for MLG
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On March 22 2014 07:20 Ercster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 04:36 Omnishroud wrote:Considering the admins are batshit crazy about SSB to the point of open-inviting anyone to TLHQ to play, picking up 2 players for a game with little to no casual scene and is old as hell. I'd say there was a fair chance of some Melee being featured / self-pushed onto the featured events list. Im pretty sure their interests are in raising SSB interest. + Show Spoiler +"little to no casual scene" isnt an insult btw, its just melee doesnt have much of a scene outside of tournaments / weekly smash-ups where people actively travel hours on end to attend them, that isnt really casual by todays standards The benefit Smash Bros has is most people probably have a Gamecube, which means they have melee. So if people start watching the game being played......BOOM! The casual player scene is back. People will start bringing out their old Gamecubes and play again. And even in the slim chance that doesn't happen, it will still be okay. StarCraft 2 has a pretty small "casual" player scene compared to other eSports, and it's still one of the top 5 eSports. Even when it was top dog back in 2010 and 2011, the casual player scene was incredibly small for the high viewer count. And if you're talking non-player casual, then StarCraft 2 likely has one of the largest non-player based viewer counts (based on comparatively low number of players that are active on ladder, it would be ignorant to believe that the viewer count is solely player based.). So I don't really see the same problem you see. I think the biggest problem that's going to arise is if the new Smash Bros is better or as good as people think Melee is, are they going to stick with Melee or switch or both?
Indeed, I play SSBM with a group of 6 or so people in college and we play for hours. I'm the only one who really wants to improve to a competitive level; the rest play casually. I know at least one other room on my floor who plays SSBM as well. A lot of college kids seem to have GCs because they're hard to break and super fun
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On March 23 2014 21:32 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 09:35 nikj wrote:
Couldn't they just have a "party mode" and a "competitive mode" keep everyone happy? Is this too hard to accomplish? I think Smash Melee itself for many people only was a party mode. That is why it is such a perfect game and I wish game designers would learn that it is entirely possible to combine the two.
yea, this is a thing that has bothered me for the entire like 12 years that i've been in the Melee scene. in person, i've pretty much never met someone who didn't enjoy Melee, regardless of their level of knowledge or skill or competitiveness. but online, it's not super uncommon to see people talk about how Wavedashing and L-Canceling and all the advanced techniques ruin the game for casual players, and how it was never meant to be a fighting game and the players just got overzealous with a bunch of glitches and tricks to break the game.
and all it is, for the most part, is your standard internet bandwagon-ing and echo-chambering, but it still bothers me a lot, because that totally discredits the magic of the game, which is that it was designed with such intricate and thoughtful core mechanics that it was bound to appeal to everyone from the most casual to the most competitive playerbases. that's not an accident, and it doesn't come down to a bunch of unintended exploits. the majority of what i consider to be the main reasons Melee is such a great competitive game are also the reasons that it works so well for casual players.
free movement, for instance, is a huge departure from most fighting games. and having been around tons of friends who are more casual gamers, the limited movement and double-tap inputs in something like Street Fighter or Soul Calibur are things that i've heard a lot of complaint and frustration about—even from people that really like fighting games in general. so the free and relatively intuitive movement mechanics on the ground and in the air become a really big benefit for the average player, because it lets them go exactly where and how they want to go, without feeling like they're struggling against intentional limitations. and movement also ends up being one of the most important aspects of competitive Melee; it's most of the neutral game, essential to freeform combos, and more often than not, it gets used for defense instead of blocking or dodging. and the movement also becomes a big way for players to express themselves. you can identify plenty of players by their movement.
alot of defensive mechanics are also at play, sort of behind the scenes, to make the average player in a casual match never feel totally overwhelmed by their opponent, even if they don't really understand the interactions completely: Crouch Canceling, which reduces the damage, stun and knockback taken if you get hit while crouching; DI, which at its most basic, will help you not die from big knockout moves if you're holding up and towards the stage—which is really intuitive, since casual players tend to want to always be moving foward and recovering with any character tends to revolve around Up+Bing towards the stage; Invincibility frames—during most Up+Bs, when you grab the ledge, when you Tech or get up from a knockdown, when you Roll or Spotdodge; huge range on Ledge Attacks and Wakeup Attacks to make them somewhat safe (at low levels) since casual players will often miss techs and seldom aren't hitting A or B.
even L-Canceling has its origin as a "behind-the-scenes" defensive mechanic: in SSB64, if you whiffed an aerial attack close to the ground, you could Shield as soon as you landed (or a bit preemptively) to cover yourself, and it would cancel all of the normal landing lag, so you wouldn't get punished so hard for missing. that mechanic was carried straight into Melee, but with a more precise timing window, and only canceling half the lag instead of all of it. but the idea is the same: you're allowed to Shield and protect yourself after aerial attacks. and i actually have, on my copy of Melee, a code for characters to flash white on successful L-Cancels. and i see my casual friends do it at usually 6-7 times per match, even though they have no idea what it is and don't care.
and again, these really specific defensive mechanics are vital to competitive Melee also: Crouch Canceling is one of the big differentiators between good players and decent ones, and alot of matchup strategy revolves around whether or not your opponent is at a low enough percent to Crouch Cancel your approaches; DI is probably the only thing more important than movement, being the reason that every combo is necessarily different and reactive, and giving skilled players the survivability they have; players are really good at using and abusing those little moments of invincibility—especially from the ledge; and L-Canceling obviously is where competitive Melee gets most of its speed from.
Melee's gameplay has evolved a ton in the competitive scene, of course, and there are a bunch of advanced techniques and tricks that don't really fall under the umbrella of basic core game mechanics. but even if you didn't have all of that stuff, the core mechanics were enough to make a game that was great for casual play with friends and competitive play. so it made me really sad to see the design philosophy in Brawl and how the developers felt that there was some irreconcilable dichotomy between casual and competitive in terms of game design. there isn't. good mechanics are good mechanics. Melee fits perfectly with both worlds. and other games can do that too.
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This is pretty damn awesome.
I've been playing casually at work recently (Project M) and it will be nice to finally have a team to root for. Plus Fox and Marth are my two favorite characters 
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I've never been that interested in the smash scene, but watching the smash brothers episodes really shows me how interesting and deep the game really is! Now I have to apologize to my friend that I've ragged on for several years, since he plays it competitively...
On March 20 2014 00:24 salito wrote:
What sponsorship opportunities do you portend console players can create? They can't sell HyperX or Razer products.
Well, there's these things that transcend platforms, that are currently sponsoring; not only almost every single tournament, but also sponsoring many teams. It's called food products. Energy drinks, soda companies, etc. I'd imagine that even smash players drink and eat, as alien as they are to us PC gamers.
You also have to remember that people have computers. Even smash players. How do you think they post here? They may want to buy peripherals for that, and now these companies have exposure to an essentially untapped market, simply for sponsoring TL on it's SC2/DotA2 teams. It adds extra value to your investment.
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EPT
