Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne - Page 4

On October 05 2013 06:28 Spaylz wrote:
I don't really have any details regarding WCG. I was glad to learn WC3 was going to be featured, and from what I gather a lot of people are training for it. Lucifer and the likes. I can't imagine it being very different than the previous events. Should be exciting!

In other news, you guys should check out Purebe on YouTube, he has a lot of videos and audio commentaries of WC3 pro games. Sometimes his commentary is a little iffy, but he's gotten a lot better with time. I personally like it, and I can't stand stonebreakkid's voice, so...

Here for his YouTube profile, he has a series of videos called The War Cast, should definitely check it out.

I still haven't really gotten anybody's availability for the clan, so I don't think we'll be making it this weekend. A decent amount of people have posted in the thread nonetheless, so I don't doubt that we will get it done in time.

On October 05 2013 18:03 Salivanth wrote:
I might be interested in getting into this game; I've played a few times with a friend of mine, and we enjoyed it, but I was better than him for some reason and we stopped.

A few questions:

How long does it take to find games, generally?
Is there some sort of ladder system?
Where, if anywhere, can I find some standard strategies?
Are all the races about as viable as each other? If not, which races are better/worse?
What's it like, playing each race competitively?

For example, if someone asked me this in SC2, I'd say Terran was very micro-heavy and relied on mechanics and aggression/harass. Zerg is a fairly reactive race, with the ability to switch between full econ and full army really quickly. Protoss is a race that focuses a lot on getting a large army together and playing defensively for much of the game, then controlling that army well. This is fairly obviously a simplified answer, but I'm not going to ask someone to write three pages.

What non-obvious things should I absolutely know as a new WC3 player coming from SC2? Stuff like "Micro is really important", "Don't freak out about having to wait ages to expand" and such, but stuff that I probably wouldn't figure out for myself.

On October 05 2013 19:42 monomo wrote:



There is no "Econ" in wc3 - you have your 5 workers mining, and thats it.

Other than that, try to play on Garena (assuming it still exists - havent been playinhg wc3 for 3 years) because the lag on bnet is horrendous + all cheaters.


Good luck with it; I've found i cannot play wc3 anymore after playing just 1 sc2 game; it just feels so old

On October 06 2013 01:30 Spaylz wrote:
WARNING: Long post ahead.

@Salivanth

The basics of WC3 are quite easy to grasp. If you watch a few replays of the race you wish to play and go practice in games, you'll quickly have a clue of what to do in the early game. After that, you'll learn with experience and more practice.

WC3 is radically different from SC2, each game emphasizes completely different aspects of the RTS genre. SC2 focuses on macro, timing, strategy and multitasking while WC3 focuses on micro, handling battles, a lower dose of strategy and a different type of timing (that is a very narrowed down list of concepts, there are many more of course but this is enough for a basic explanation). A game of WC3 takes a very different route than in SC2, notably because the fights go on for much longer - it is in fact not unusual to have games that are 90% made of fights, sometimes the two players have constant exchanges all throughout the game.

I wouldn't say the economy in WC3 is dumbed down, it is just different. Players don't take as many expansions and sometimes no expansions at all. Taking an expansion in WC3 puts you at risk whether you fast expand or do it later, because it will either delay your tech or reduce your army. There's also the upkeep to consider. Whenever your population goes over 50 and 80, you'll have low and high upkeep, meaning the amount of resources you earn will be reduced. That applies to workers gathering resources, the gold you get from creeps and the gold you'd get from selling items. Add that to the fact that you have a food limit of 100, and you'll quickly learn that you have to be efficient with your resources in what you choose to make.

About match-ups... Truth be told, I don't believe WC3 is balanced. It is certainly not massively unbalanced, but it has unfair situations and very difficult ones. For instance, Orc vs Undead is a notoriously hard match-up for the Undead, and it is probably the most unbalanced one in the game too. That particular situation is pretty much the biggest and I would say only example of bad balance. Orc vs NE and Orc vs Human are also pretty tough on the Orc, and Human vs Undead is pretty tough on the Human if they do not fast expand, although players have learned to cope with it and those match-ups are largely balanced nowadays. Other than Orc vs Undead, I would say the other instances of unbalance are based on RNG. Not so much the items you might get from creeping, that's sort of an interesting RNG that is necessary if you ask me, there should be some luck (although some items can definitely give a huge advantage, usually the Tome of Experience - an item that gives a sizable chunk of experience to any Hero who consumes it - puts you ahead or helps you catch up as Hero levels are quite important). But the skills are based on RNG too, for example the Mountain King's Bash or the Blademaster's Critical Strike. For the latter it is rather clear, Orc players have a tendency to build their game around their BM and get damage items in order to exacerbate the Crit Strike, and it can definitely lead to abuse if the person is lucky. Even then though, the cases where the RNG will make or break a game is existent but rare. For 98% of the games, the result will depend on skill, choices, knowledge and a bit of luck.

If I were to give some advice, I'd narrow it down to this:

- Control and micro are paramount. Any unit you lose matters, as it gives experience to your opponent's Hero, and levels are a huge factor of any game.
- Your Hero is your most important unit. They have an immense impact on the game, and the choice of your Heroes always matters, whether you get one or three.
- Scouting is important, although it happens less than in SC2, because your scout is likely to die and therefore give experience. It is however still important to know what your opponent is doing, so I believe it is a matter of doing it at the right time and paying attention.
- Your strategy matters. Read: the units you choose to make, the amount of units and how you use them matters. That is why it is important to know what your opponent is doing, if they are going for mass air, you need to be prepared, as not all units are fit to counter that.
- Timing is important. You have to know when to creep, when to harass, when to fight, when to retreat (that includes using a TP to retreat), when to push, when to be defensive or aggressive and so forth.
- Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your race is important as well. You have to know what to expect and you have to know where, when and how your hits will be most painful in all situations. I'll extend on that later.
- The map matters. Your strategy and general stance should change based on the map you are playing on. Some maps make harassing more effective, other maps will make creeping more profitable.
- Watch for the Tech of your enemy. It is one of the first things you should look at when scouting, for your opponent's Tech often gives away their strategy. Someone who stays T1 for a long time is either working on an all-in tactic or is expanding. Someone who stays T2 and does not proceed to T3 for a while will likely mass T2 units and will be looking to push or expand. Someone who rushes to T3 will almost always do a timing push and will have high tier units fairly quickly.
- Map control is important. Night Elves have Wisps, which they can put on any tree on the map. Humans have farms which can be built in a lot of places and can tremendously help with map control. Orcs have great scouting abilities thanks to their Heroes and Undead have Ghouls, which make for a fast and cheap scout also capable of shutting down unprotected expansions without much effort.
- Position very often decides the outcome of a fight. The composition of your army also decides of the position you should choose to fight in. Beefy units first, squishy units in the back. An Orc player typically gains from fighting in an open space, as does an Undead player, as it is easier to focus Heroes in such situations and those two races are very good at that. Humans and Night Elves often need to keep their fragile units in the back and choose to face their opponent in a well thought-out position.
- Do not be stubborn about chasing units or Heroes. Very often players will find themselves outplayed when they relentlessly chase after one low HP unit or Hero while the entirety of their army is being decimated. Keep to your position and focus on the fight at hand, not on single units.
- Use items. Bigger creep camps often give very good items, which can either be used or sold. Most maps also have shops, which you should take advantage of. A Potion of Lesser Invulnerability can sometimes change the outcome of a fight, as can a Scroll of Healing.
- Keep your food supply high. Supply blocking is very unforgiving in WC3, as you typically have less units than in SC2. It is important to be on top of your macro and always watch your food count.
- Learn how to build your base. Sometimes game changing fights will take place in a player's base, and the layout of said base can easily decide of the outcome. This is especially true if you are Undead. Night Elves should also be aware of that as having available Moon Wells nearby is capital.
- Experience and kills matters. You should be very careful of how many of your units die to your opponents, and you should save them whenever possible. Failing that, deny them if you can, as killing your own units takes away all the experience your opponent's Hero would gain.
- Be careful when you creep. Harassing in WC3 is not only common, it is expected. Creep jacking (the act of being caught by your opponent while you are in the middle of killing a creep camp) can very often put you behind. This is especially true if you are Human, or if you are playing against an Orc or Undead, as those two races are very prone to stealing experience and/or items.

And finally, a short breakdown of all races, with their weaknesses and strengths and other facts:

Humans
As a Human player, you are typically vulnerable in the early game and the chances of you suffering some harass are quite high. On the other hand, you get stronger as the game goes on, especially if you've established your economy with an early expand, as the typical trio of Human Heroes (Archmage/Mountain King/Paladin) is VERY powerful and the late game Human units are overall very potent. T2 units are also powerful, notably casters. Mass casters is a very common strategy but it does require a great deal of micro to be successful, as these units are all very low on HP and do not have great armor. Humans tend to creep and reach for a fast level 3 before they do any kind of real aggression, although early harass is definitely an option if you have excellent control. Humans are very effective at cancelling buildingq and killing workers, as they don't really need more than their Archmage and two Elementals to do damage, or even their Mountain King with a few units, provided they are level 3. Any player who chooses to harass a Human will almost always go for Peasants, as they are very vulnerable and killing them can provide you with a real advantage. The Archmage is almost always the choice of any player, mostly because of the Water Elementals (which are incredibly strong after level 2) and the Brillance Aura, which makes the Archmage a walking mana fountain. He is however fairly fragile, so good control is required. The Mountain King is also incredibly powerful, definitely amongst the strongest Heroes in the game. He has a very nasty stun and is very beefy, so he should never be underestimated.

Orcs
As an Orc player, you are very vulnerable during your tech and during the T2 phase of the game. As Orc players tend to have less army, especially in the beginning, losing any unit early on is a huge deal for them. Delaying the T2 infrastructures of an Orc is very easy and does wonders, and destroying their burrows goes a long way to giving you an advantage as they are easy to kill, thus supply blocking the Orc easily. The T3 of Orcs is extremely powerful, but as they have a lot of very good T2 units as well, they rarely go for it. Orcish units are expensive and they have to know what to do. Raiders are typically the way to go, as Ensnare is a completely free disable that costs no mana at all and isn't magic, and therefore can be cast on anything and everything. It allows for an easy shut down of any unit or Hero and makes focusing a breeze. Orcs typically do a lot of physical damage and lack casters and magic, as their most powerful units and heroes are on the physical side. They also have tons of disables when you add Heroes like Shadow Hunter or Tauren Chieftain to Raiders. Orc players tend to harass a lot, although they can also creep. It generally depends on the match-up and the map. They have excellent map control as they can scout easily with the BM, who is very fast, and with the Far Seer who can summon Wolves for an easy scout. Due to the nature of the BM (invisibility), one can expect to be creep jacked when playing against an Orc.

Night Elves
As a Night Elf player, your weaknesses shift depending on the time of the day. Naturally, a NE player is stronger at night, not only because most of their units will be able to hide but also because their Moon Wells will regenerate, giving them extra HP and mana regeneration. As a consequence they are more vulnerable during the day and losing their Moon Wells is horrible because it not only deprives them of food supply but also of heals. Night Elf players are typically extremely versatile, they are the race that arguably benefits the most from the Tavern because a lot of Neutral Heroes fit very well within their strategies. I would say that they are quite wood dependent, and killing their Wisps to shut down their resources is a very viable move that pays off if you don't lose too many units in the process. I believe that positioning is primordial when fighting a Night Elf, as the fights tend to require you to properly contain their army and do good damage across the board while protecting your units to the maximum. Night Elves players can harass or creep very well, and excellent players tend to do both at the same time. A key component to Nigh Elf early game is what we call AoW creeping: using your Ancient of War (the first building they have to produce military units) to tank damage from the creeps and leave their units unharmed. As a result, they can easily creep with their AoW and a couple of units and run off with their Hero to harass the opponent if the situation allows it. Keep in mind any unit killed by a building (be it a tower of any race or a Night Elf Ancient) does not give any experience, so they do have to be careful as to who or what gives the last hit. It always depends on the situation and on the choices made by each player, but in most games, Night Elf players will benefit more from harassing as it helps them a lot to shut down the leveling of their opponent - it directly affects any aggression they might suffer.

Undead
As an Undead player, your weakness lies with your economy. Undead players tend to be the race which expands the less, quite simply because their expands are very costly and often require a lot of commitment to defend. They also take a lot from their T3, which means that a fast tech is very often an advantage for them. Undead players rely a whole lot on Heroes, mostly because their nuking potential allows them to kill or severely damage units and heroes in a matter of seconds, which can often be a game changer. As previously stated, their T3 units are very strong (mostly the Destroyer, the Frost Wyrm and perhaps the Abomination) and their T3 items are also incredible. They have the best orb in the game (-5 defense) and the nuking potential of the Death Knight + Lich combo is not to be trifled with. I would say they are most vulnerable when they are teching, as their Acolytes are quite easy to access and kill and since they use different workers for gold and wood, killing any Acolyte can prove to be horribly crippling. On the other hand, an Undead base is a real fortress and it is extremely hard to enter a base without being harmed, let alone win a fight in it. Undead players have a higher regeneration on the Blight their buildings create (similar to Zergs' creep) and their main and towers can slow you down, making any assault or battle in their base very challenging. Undead players direly need map control, as most races will choose to expand against them. Undead players tend to harass against Night Elves and Humans, and creep in the other two match-ups. In almost all cases, Undead players will put heavy pressure on any opponent who expands, as having a greater economy than the Undead often turns out to be a game winner. Their nuking potential allows them to be very aggressive and they become real scary with each level their Heroes gain. It is not unheard of to have your Hero being two-shot by Undead nukes.

I'll definitely add that last part to the OP, but as far as websites are concerned, Replayers and Replays.net are by far your best options. Replays.net has TONS of great replays.

I personally find WC3 infinitely more fun than SC2, simply because there is a lot more raw action and there is still enough depth to the game to have solid strategies. Decision making and critical thinking definitely have their place too, and overall WC3 is a very strategic game. Not to mention the old BNet is so much better than the new one, simply because it is a lot more social and you don't feel alone in the world when you're on.

Well, I wasn't expecting to write something this long, but oh well! Hopefully it will help, and people will actually read.