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Northern Ireland26675 Posts
On November 21 2024 03:40 zhrtehgdf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2024 03:31 WombaT wrote:On November 21 2024 03:29 zhrtehgdf wrote:On November 21 2024 00:50 WombaT wrote:On November 20 2024 17:56 Harris1st wrote:
Man you all talking about Warcraft makes me really want to play it again but I also really don't want to give Blizzard money. Stuck between a rock and a hard place here Way I justified it is I held off for years not being able to play my all-time favourite game, and I somewhat considered this as giving Microsoft my money given the recent impetus and it being consistent with what they’ve done with AoE games in recent years. What? Microsoft released Windows ME, Windows Vista. How could you ever support a company like that? What about Age of Empires 4? I dont think you are trolling. You are actually serious You never get bored of this eh? Are you any reasonable? Be honest
Blizzard released a fucking shitshow of a remaster, so bad that I didn’t buy it despite WC3 being my favourite game ever.
Microsoft’s gaming division has done a good job with their RTS properties in recent years, Game Pass is a great product that’s given me and kiddo many a fun gaming memory at a good price.
Since the acquisition Reforged got a decent overhaul, it got another hot fix literally just today that’s decent. Stuff Blizzard didn’t get done in years previously.
Reforged launched without a ladder! For fuck’s sake get off Blizzard’s dick already
It’s still not 100% what I’d see in an ideal world, it’s a good enough product I’ll buy it.
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Upkeep is a really, really interesting mechanic too. An anti-snowball that I’m generally surprised more games haven’t experimented with
Really? Getting taxed for good macro is not the definition of "fun" for most RTS fans.
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Northern Ireland26675 Posts
On November 21 2024 04:04 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +Upkeep is a really, really interesting mechanic too. An anti-snowball that I’m generally surprised more games haven’t experimented with Really? Getting taxed for good macro is not the definition of "fun" for most RTS fans.
‘Good macro’ is often just mashing buttons through some familiar builds and learned patterns of production. WC3 is just generally less macro heavy anyway.
A supply cap also penalises people with good macro, just to point that out.
Upkeep creates some interesting problems, and some risk and rewards, and is something of an anti-snowball mechanic.
- Can I skimp and stay no upkeep, bank money and stick that surplus in items and upgrades?
- Do I hit a low upkeep timing if I sense my opponent is deliberately keeping their supply in low upkeep?
- Do I go 2 base and in low upkeep, where the second base income bonus outweighs the tax versus 1 base no upkeep?
- Do I try to build a super army and turtle, which potentially allows my opponent to bank a big eco advantage, but I may end up with an unkillable army?
Amongst other calculations.
Call me crazy but in a strategy game I think upkeep really does introduce some interesting questions and there isn’t always an optimal one size fits all solution either. In most other RTS games I’ve played more = better and that’s also fine, but I think it’s a genuinely strategically and tactically interesting idea
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United States12243 Posts
On November 20 2024 17:56 Harris1st wrote:
Man you all talking about Warcraft makes me really want to play it again but I also really don't want to give Blizzard money. Stuck between a rock and a hard place here
Then don't. Register your old RoC CD-Key on https://account.battle.net/games#classic-game-accounts and download the client at https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/256212 so you can play for free. You'll still have to update to the 30gb Reforged client, and of course you won't have access to the HD stuff, but it costs nothing.
On November 21 2024 04:20 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2024 04:04 Slydie wrote:Upkeep is a really, really interesting mechanic too. An anti-snowball that I’m generally surprised more games haven’t experimented with Really? Getting taxed for good macro is not the definition of "fun" for most RTS fans. ‘Good macro’ is often just mashing buttons through some familiar builds and learned patterns of production. WC3 is just generally less macro heavy anyway. A supply cap also penalises people with good macro, just to point that out. Upkeep creates some interesting problems, and some risk and rewards, and is something of an anti-snowball mechanic. - Can I skimp and stay no upkeep, bank money and stick that surplus in items and upgrades? - Do I hit a low upkeep timing if I sense my opponent is deliberately keeping their supply in low upkeep? - Do I go 2 base and in low upkeep, where the second base income bonus outweighs the tax versus 1 base no upkeep? - Do I try to build a super army and turtle, which potentially allows my opponent to bank a big eco advantage, but I may end up with an unkillable army? Amongst other calculations. Call me crazy but in a strategy game I think upkeep really does introduce some interesting questions and there isn’t always an optimal one size fits all solution either. In most other RTS games I’ve played more = better and that’s also fine, but I think it’s a genuinely strategically and tactically interesting idea
Yeah this is well said. I also used to think, coming from BW, that upkeep was a stupid mechanic, particularly because I was aware that it was designed around limiting army size for PC performance reasons. But after learning more about high level War3, I discovered the (perhaps unintentional?) genius nuance behind it. In BW, your economy is based around how many workers you build, so the differentiator is a combination of greed, optimal node assignment, and multitasking. In War3, everyone's income is identical, which means the differentiator comes in the form of a mechanic called upkeep. Going into a new upkeep tier puts pressure on you to act: whether that means winning outright or capturing an expansion, because otherwise you're sacrificing 30% or 60% of your total gold income for nothing, which puts your opponent in an economically advantageous situation. So it really comes down to optimizing your decisions and pushing your limits. Very unique and fascinating aspect of the game.
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Northern Ireland26675 Posts
On November 21 2024 08:20 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2024 17:56 Harris1st wrote:
Man you all talking about Warcraft makes me really want to play it again but I also really don't want to give Blizzard money. Stuck between a rock and a hard place here Then don't. Register your old RoC CD-Key on https://account.battle.net/games#classic-game-accounts and download the client at https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/256212 so you can play for free. You'll still have to update to the 30gb Reforged client, and of course you won't have access to the HD stuff, but it costs nothing. Show nested quote +On November 21 2024 04:20 WombaT wrote:On November 21 2024 04:04 Slydie wrote:Upkeep is a really, really interesting mechanic too. An anti-snowball that I’m generally surprised more games haven’t experimented with Really? Getting taxed for good macro is not the definition of "fun" for most RTS fans. ‘Good macro’ is often just mashing buttons through some familiar builds and learned patterns of production. WC3 is just generally less macro heavy anyway. A supply cap also penalises people with good macro, just to point that out. Upkeep creates some interesting problems, and some risk and rewards, and is something of an anti-snowball mechanic. - Can I skimp and stay no upkeep, bank money and stick that surplus in items and upgrades? - Do I hit a low upkeep timing if I sense my opponent is deliberately keeping their supply in low upkeep? - Do I go 2 base and in low upkeep, where the second base income bonus outweighs the tax versus 1 base no upkeep? - Do I try to build a super army and turtle, which potentially allows my opponent to bank a big eco advantage, but I may end up with an unkillable army? Amongst other calculations. Call me crazy but in a strategy game I think upkeep really does introduce some interesting questions and there isn’t always an optimal one size fits all solution either. In most other RTS games I’ve played more = better and that’s also fine, but I think it’s a genuinely strategically and tactically interesting idea Yeah this is well said. I also used to think, coming from BW, that upkeep was a stupid mechanic, particularly because I was aware that it was designed around limiting army size for PC performance reasons. But after learning more about high level War3, I discovered the (perhaps unintentional?) genius nuance behind it. In BW, your economy is based around how many workers you build, so the differentiator is a combination of greed, optimal node assignment, and multitasking. In War3, everyone's income is identical, which means the differentiator comes in the form of a mechanic called upkeep. Going into a new upkeep tier puts pressure on you to act: whether that means winning outright or capturing an expansion, because otherwise you're sacrificing 30% or 60% of your total gold income for nothing, which puts your opponent in an economically advantageous situation. So it really comes down to optimizing your decisions and pushing your limits. Very unique and fascinating aspect of the game.
Interesting, I’d never heard that it was partly for performance reasons before.
Like Brood War before I’m unsure how much of WC3 was absolute intentional genius and how much was just very good + lightning in a bottle and they got a bit lucky too.
Brood War could have turned out to be completely broken when folks really pushed what was possible and created 300+ APM monsters that the game was never remotely designed for, but it still worked out OK.
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New player questions:
Regarding the complexities of the Human Faction-
Why is it that you want spell breakers targeting Heroes during fights? Are there situations where u would want to target something else instead? Do you need upgrades for spellbreakers, if so which ones?
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United States12243 Posts
On November 21 2024 10:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2024 08:20 Excalibur_Z wrote:On November 20 2024 17:56 Harris1st wrote:
Man you all talking about Warcraft makes me really want to play it again but I also really don't want to give Blizzard money. Stuck between a rock and a hard place here Then don't. Register your old RoC CD-Key on https://account.battle.net/games#classic-game-accounts and download the client at https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/256212 so you can play for free. You'll still have to update to the 30gb Reforged client, and of course you won't have access to the HD stuff, but it costs nothing. On November 21 2024 04:20 WombaT wrote:On November 21 2024 04:04 Slydie wrote:Upkeep is a really, really interesting mechanic too. An anti-snowball that I’m generally surprised more games haven’t experimented with Really? Getting taxed for good macro is not the definition of "fun" for most RTS fans. ‘Good macro’ is often just mashing buttons through some familiar builds and learned patterns of production. WC3 is just generally less macro heavy anyway. A supply cap also penalises people with good macro, just to point that out. Upkeep creates some interesting problems, and some risk and rewards, and is something of an anti-snowball mechanic. - Can I skimp and stay no upkeep, bank money and stick that surplus in items and upgrades? - Do I hit a low upkeep timing if I sense my opponent is deliberately keeping their supply in low upkeep? - Do I go 2 base and in low upkeep, where the second base income bonus outweighs the tax versus 1 base no upkeep? - Do I try to build a super army and turtle, which potentially allows my opponent to bank a big eco advantage, but I may end up with an unkillable army? Amongst other calculations. Call me crazy but in a strategy game I think upkeep really does introduce some interesting questions and there isn’t always an optimal one size fits all solution either. In most other RTS games I’ve played more = better and that’s also fine, but I think it’s a genuinely strategically and tactically interesting idea Yeah this is well said. I also used to think, coming from BW, that upkeep was a stupid mechanic, particularly because I was aware that it was designed around limiting army size for PC performance reasons. But after learning more about high level War3, I discovered the (perhaps unintentional?) genius nuance behind it. In BW, your economy is based around how many workers you build, so the differentiator is a combination of greed, optimal node assignment, and multitasking. In War3, everyone's income is identical, which means the differentiator comes in the form of a mechanic called upkeep. Going into a new upkeep tier puts pressure on you to act: whether that means winning outright or capturing an expansion, because otherwise you're sacrificing 30% or 60% of your total gold income for nothing, which puts your opponent in an economically advantageous situation. So it really comes down to optimizing your decisions and pushing your limits. Very unique and fascinating aspect of the game. Interesting, I’d never heard that it was partly for performance reasons before. Like Brood War before I’m unsure how much of WC3 was absolute intentional genius and how much was just very good + lightning in a bottle and they got a bit lucky too. Brood War could have turned out to be completely broken when folks really pushed what was possible and created 300+ APM monsters that the game was never remotely designed for, but it still worked out OK.
In my opinion what's really notable about both Starcraft and Warcraft 3 is that the base games were considered good but a bit unpolished and imbalanced, and were really defined by their expansions. Brood War and Frozen Throne really crystalized that the designers knew they had tapped into something where the core concept had promise but certain details needed refinement. In Brood War this was mostly "make every new unit counter Mutalisks" lmao, but in TFT it was racial shops, new heroes and units per race, neutral heroes, more item types, more creeps and mercenaries to really add massive depth and more permutations to a game that embraced the concept of mastering chaos.
On November 21 2024 12:18 CicadaSC wrote:
New player questions:
Regarding the complexities of the Human Faction-
Why is it that you want spell breakers targeting Heroes during fights? Are there situations where u would want to target something else instead? Do you need upgrades for spellbreakers, if so which ones?
Spellbreakers have the Feedback passive that burns 4 mana per hit against heroes. Mana is a precious resource that does not regenerate quickly, so this can delay enemy heroes from casting spells for potentially a significant amount of time. I can't speculate whether they should always target heroes or not, but the mana burn passive alone would put them to better use than against most normal, non-caster units.
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thanks for the helpful response! didnt know that. and do i need upgrades for the spell breakers? if so which ones?
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question: what are the signs an orc is going Taurens without actually seeing the taurens on the field. Like what is the tech or building? I keep going gryphons to counter it too late and getting rolled over lol
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United States12243 Posts
On November 21 2024 14:06 CicadaSC wrote:
thanks for the helpful response! didnt know that. and do i need upgrades for the spell breakers? if so which ones?
I think the Control Magic upgrade at Tier 3 is pretty situational. I've seen it mostly used against Orc when they get rank 3 Feral Spirits (because the damage is significant and it's an invisible scout) as well as versus Witch Doctors (especially for stealing Healing Wards for minimal mana cost at a significant range). Damage upgrades for Spellbreakers are not very important because their value isn't in their damage, it's in their ability to drain mana and prevent the enemy from winning the buff/debuff war, and armor upgrades they'll probably get incidentally if you're going for Knights.
On November 21 2024 14:39 CicadaSC wrote:
question: what are the signs an orc is going Taurens without actually seeing the taurens on the field. Like what is the tech or building? I keep going gryphons to counter it too late and getting rolled over lol
Tauren require a Fortress and a Tauren Totem. The Totem is often okay to get on its own at Tier 2 if there's a need for Spirit Link and AoE dispel from Spirit Walkers, so that alone may not indicate Tauren. And a Fortress alone could just mean higher upgrades, Kodo Drums,.or Berserkers. But Tauren are quite expensive and often you'll want a number of them (and likely Spirit Walker Master training to resurrect them) to surprise the enemy, so you'll want to keep an eye on how many expansions the Orc has to see if they can support mass Tauren, and potentially confirm either with Mechanical Critters, Invis scouts, Goblin Laboratory Reveal, or just base pressure.
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On November 21 2024 08:20 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2024 17:56 Harris1st wrote:
Man you all talking about Warcraft makes me really want to play it again but I also really don't want to give Blizzard money. Stuck between a rock and a hard place here Then don't. Register your old RoC CD-Key on https://account.battle.net/games#classic-game-accounts and download the client at https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/256212 so you can play for free. You'll still have to update to the 30gb Reforged client, and of course you won't have access to the HD stuff, but it costs nothing. Show nested quote +On November 21 2024 04:20 WombaT wrote:On November 21 2024 04:04 Slydie wrote:Upkeep is a really, really interesting mechanic too. An anti-snowball that I’m generally surprised more games haven’t experimented with Really? Getting taxed for good macro is not the definition of "fun" for most RTS fans. ‘Good macro’ is often just mashing buttons through some familiar builds and learned patterns of production. WC3 is just generally less macro heavy anyway. A supply cap also penalises people with good macro, just to point that out. Upkeep creates some interesting problems, and some risk and rewards, and is something of an anti-snowball mechanic. - Can I skimp and stay no upkeep, bank money and stick that surplus in items and upgrades? - Do I hit a low upkeep timing if I sense my opponent is deliberately keeping their supply in low upkeep? - Do I go 2 base and in low upkeep, where the second base income bonus outweighs the tax versus 1 base no upkeep? - Do I try to build a super army and turtle, which potentially allows my opponent to bank a big eco advantage, but I may end up with an unkillable army? Amongst other calculations. Call me crazy but in a strategy game I think upkeep really does introduce some interesting questions and there isn’t always an optimal one size fits all solution either. In most other RTS games I’ve played more = better and that’s also fine, but I think it’s a genuinely strategically and tactically interesting idea Yeah this is well said. I also used to think, coming from BW, that upkeep was a stupid mechanic, particularly because I was aware that it was designed around limiting army size for PC performance reasons. But after learning more about high level War3, I discovered the (perhaps unintentional?) genius nuance behind it. In BW, your economy is based around how many workers you build, so the differentiator is a combination of greed, optimal node assignment, and multitasking. In War3, everyone's income is identical, which means the differentiator comes in the form of a mechanic called upkeep. Going into a new upkeep tier puts pressure on you to act: whether that means winning outright or capturing an expansion, because otherwise you're sacrificing 30% or 60% of your total gold income for nothing, which puts your opponent in an economically advantageous situation. So it really comes down to optimizing your decisions and pushing your limits. Very unique and fascinating aspect of the game.
The original question was why not more RTS games have experimented with upkeep mechanics, and I think the answer is pretty obvious.
This is a WC3 thread for people who do like the game, so I don't expect too much support, but for me, it is a frustrating complication of the "army-economy-tech" triangle. The risk/rewards of expanding and teching up are pretty similar.
I thought the upkeep in WC3 was necessary to avoid big armies in a game built around heroes.
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Northern Ireland26675 Posts
On November 21 2024 13:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2024 10:11 WombaT wrote:On November 21 2024 08:20 Excalibur_Z wrote:On November 20 2024 17:56 Harris1st wrote:
Man you all talking about Warcraft makes me really want to play it again but I also really don't want to give Blizzard money. Stuck between a rock and a hard place here Then don't. Register your old RoC CD-Key on https://account.battle.net/games#classic-game-accounts and download the client at https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/256212 so you can play for free. You'll still have to update to the 30gb Reforged client, and of course you won't have access to the HD stuff, but it costs nothing. On November 21 2024 04:20 WombaT wrote:On November 21 2024 04:04 Slydie wrote:Upkeep is a really, really interesting mechanic too. An anti-snowball that I’m generally surprised more games haven’t experimented with Really? Getting taxed for good macro is not the definition of "fun" for most RTS fans. ‘Good macro’ is often just mashing buttons through some familiar builds and learned patterns of production. WC3 is just generally less macro heavy anyway. A supply cap also penalises people with good macro, just to point that out. Upkeep creates some interesting problems, and some risk and rewards, and is something of an anti-snowball mechanic. - Can I skimp and stay no upkeep, bank money and stick that surplus in items and upgrades? - Do I hit a low upkeep timing if I sense my opponent is deliberately keeping their supply in low upkeep? - Do I go 2 base and in low upkeep, where the second base income bonus outweighs the tax versus 1 base no upkeep? - Do I try to build a super army and turtle, which potentially allows my opponent to bank a big eco advantage, but I may end up with an unkillable army? Amongst other calculations. Call me crazy but in a strategy game I think upkeep really does introduce some interesting questions and there isn’t always an optimal one size fits all solution either. In most other RTS games I’ve played more = better and that’s also fine, but I think it’s a genuinely strategically and tactically interesting idea Yeah this is well said. I also used to think, coming from BW, that upkeep was a stupid mechanic, particularly because I was aware that it was designed around limiting army size for PC performance reasons. But after learning more about high level War3, I discovered the (perhaps unintentional?) genius nuance behind it. In BW, your economy is based around how many workers you build, so the differentiator is a combination of greed, optimal node assignment, and multitasking. In War3, everyone's income is identical, which means the differentiator comes in the form of a mechanic called upkeep. Going into a new upkeep tier puts pressure on you to act: whether that means winning outright or capturing an expansion, because otherwise you're sacrificing 30% or 60% of your total gold income for nothing, which puts your opponent in an economically advantageous situation. So it really comes down to optimizing your decisions and pushing your limits. Very unique and fascinating aspect of the game. Interesting, I’d never heard that it was partly for performance reasons before. Like Brood War before I’m unsure how much of WC3 was absolute intentional genius and how much was just very good + lightning in a bottle and they got a bit lucky too. Brood War could have turned out to be completely broken when folks really pushed what was possible and created 300+ APM monsters that the game was never remotely designed for, but it still worked out OK. In my opinion what's really notable about both Starcraft and Warcraft 3 is that the base games were considered good but a bit unpolished and imbalanced, and were really defined by their expansions. Brood War and Frozen Throne really crystalized that the designers knew they had tapped into something where the core concept had promise but certain details needed refinement. In Brood War this was mostly "make every new unit counter Mutalisks" lmao, but in TFT it was racial shops, new heroes and units per race, neutral heroes, more item types, more creeps and mercenaries to really add massive depth and more permutations to a game that embraced the concept of mastering chaos. Show nested quote +On November 21 2024 12:18 CicadaSC wrote:
New player questions:
Regarding the complexities of the Human Faction-
Why is it that you want spell breakers targeting Heroes during fights? Are there situations where u would want to target something else instead? Do you need upgrades for spellbreakers, if so which ones? Spellbreakers have the Feedback passive that burns 4 mana per hit against heroes. Mana is a precious resource that does not regenerate quickly, so this can delay enemy heroes from casting spells for potentially a significant amount of time. I can't speculate whether they should always target heroes or not, but the mana burn passive alone would put them to better use than against most normal, non-caster units.
Yeah versus the base game I think Frozen Throne is the better expansion, probably the best expansion pack I can think of ever.
Changing it so you couldn’t creep heroes past level 5 made the game a lot more dynamic too.
Most else they added either solved problems, or gave interesting options without inadvertently creating new ones.
Changing some damage types and interactions was huge as well. Hunts became way less massable when they became more vulnerable to piercing, outright mass caster stopped being viable when they lost a lot of combat effectiveness etc
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Northern Ireland26675 Posts
On November 21 2024 22:31 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2024 08:20 Excalibur_Z wrote:On November 20 2024 17:56 Harris1st wrote:
Man you all talking about Warcraft makes me really want to play it again but I also really don't want to give Blizzard money. Stuck between a rock and a hard place here Then don't. Register your old RoC CD-Key on https://account.battle.net/games#classic-game-accounts and download the client at https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/256212 so you can play for free. You'll still have to update to the 30gb Reforged client, and of course you won't have access to the HD stuff, but it costs nothing. On November 21 2024 04:20 WombaT wrote:On November 21 2024 04:04 Slydie wrote:Upkeep is a really, really interesting mechanic too. An anti-snowball that I’m generally surprised more games haven’t experimented with Really? Getting taxed for good macro is not the definition of "fun" for most RTS fans. ‘Good macro’ is often just mashing buttons through some familiar builds and learned patterns of production. WC3 is just generally less macro heavy anyway. A supply cap also penalises people with good macro, just to point that out. Upkeep creates some interesting problems, and some risk and rewards, and is something of an anti-snowball mechanic. - Can I skimp and stay no upkeep, bank money and stick that surplus in items and upgrades? - Do I hit a low upkeep timing if I sense my opponent is deliberately keeping their supply in low upkeep? - Do I go 2 base and in low upkeep, where the second base income bonus outweighs the tax versus 1 base no upkeep? - Do I try to build a super army and turtle, which potentially allows my opponent to bank a big eco advantage, but I may end up with an unkillable army? Amongst other calculations. Call me crazy but in a strategy game I think upkeep really does introduce some interesting questions and there isn’t always an optimal one size fits all solution either. In most other RTS games I’ve played more = better and that’s also fine, but I think it’s a genuinely strategically and tactically interesting idea Yeah this is well said. I also used to think, coming from BW, that upkeep was a stupid mechanic, particularly because I was aware that it was designed around limiting army size for PC performance reasons. But after learning more about high level War3, I discovered the (perhaps unintentional?) genius nuance behind it. In BW, your economy is based around how many workers you build, so the differentiator is a combination of greed, optimal node assignment, and multitasking. In War3, everyone's income is identical, which means the differentiator comes in the form of a mechanic called upkeep. Going into a new upkeep tier puts pressure on you to act: whether that means winning outright or capturing an expansion, because otherwise you're sacrificing 30% or 60% of your total gold income for nothing, which puts your opponent in an economically advantageous situation. So it really comes down to optimizing your decisions and pushing your limits. Very unique and fascinating aspect of the game. The original question was why not more RTS games have experimented with upkeep mechanics, and I think the answer is pretty obvious. This is a WC3 thread for people who do like the game, so I don't expect too much support, but for me, it is a frustrating complication of the "army-economy-tech" triangle. The risk/rewards of expanding and teching up are pretty similar. I thought the upkeep in WC3 was necessary to avoid big armies in a game built around heroes.
Nah I think they’re fair points. I don’t think it would port well to say, SC2 but then that game is built in a different way.
WC3 suits it partly for smaller armies to begin with, so less mental calculus. Also it’s not hard eco focused either. 1 base is pretty damn viable, even if many metas do revolve around 2 base fast expo. 3 base is just worse in general, you lose too much standing army for the income to really compensate, indeed some maps don’t even have a third for each player. Plus heroes are a thing, they’re incredibly supply efficient even at level 1 and they scale up too.
I do like it as an anti-snowball mechanic though, something I think many RTS games do struggle with. Strong defender’s advantage of various kinds is one that can help, but equally it’s just something you have innately in some implementations. You don’t really have to think about it much, whereas how you approach upkeep is more conscious.
Equally it does add some complexity and isn’t always the most intuitive either. You’ve really got to memorise supply counts so your comp is right on an upkeep threshold, otherwise you’ve supply you’re not using, or you accidentally jump up to the next tier.
So definitely there are negatives as well, but I still think it’s an interesting and underused mechanic more generally.
Some more general questions for thread:
- Can you remap idle worker button, or heroes? Or anything on the F keys indeed?
- Can you remap your item hotkeys?
- Is there a way to reverse mouse scroll direction?
- Can you remap control groups?
These are quite minor things for me, somehow most of the muscle memory is still there after 15 years, I would like to fully replicate my SC setup for ease of switching though.
I got quite used to mouse scrolling, I think it’s outright better when you’re used to it, but screen scrolling works ok too. I have to screen scroll anytime I load Brood War because mouse scroll seems completely broken sensitivity wise, whereas in WC3 the sensitivity is good but it’s in the wrong direction.
- How do you guys hotkey things? I know this is somewhat personal but I might pick up some good tips!
Watching Grubby and a few others it seems they group everything together and only split them into rough roles once armies get a bit bigger. I was trying to split by role immediately but it seems to make it a little harder to micro? Like 1a2a3a4a is something I can do but introduces more chance of a misclick.
Cheers!
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United States12243 Posts
On November 22 2024 00:40 WombaT wrote:
Some more general questions for thread:
- Can you remap idle worker button, or heroes? Or anything on the F keys indeed?
- Can you remap your item hotkeys?
- Is there a way to reverse mouse scroll direction?
- Can you remap control groups?
Remapping item hotkeys and the idle worker button is not possible in-game, which means you have to use an Autohotkey-based solution (there are a couple of these, and one is bundled inside the W3Champions client). That said, if you use Grid hotkeys, items are automatically remapped to TYGHBN, and that's what I'm trying to adjust to now. It's very convenient, but it's weird hitting V instead of Escape to cancel something, and R-clicking to attack-move.
By "mouse scroll" I assume you're referring to the "world grip" style map movement where you hold middle mouse and drag? I don't think there's a way to change that either.
Remapping control groups... to keys besides the numbers? No. Control group management is the same as BW, where Ctrl defines a group, Shift adds to it, and if you want to remove something from a group you Shift-deselect it and Ctrl to redefine the remaining units.
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I was thinking about giving the remaster a chance now that it seems to be in a better place. Just annoyed since I can't find my roc cd key my tft key is just worthless lol and ofc thats the one I was able to locate.
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On November 21 2024 08:20 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2024 17:56 Harris1st wrote:
Man you all talking about Warcraft makes me really want to play it again but I also really don't want to give Blizzard money. Stuck between a rock and a hard place here Then don't. Register your old RoC CD-Key on https://account.battle.net/games#classic-game-accounts and download the client at https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/256212 so you can play for free. You'll still have to update to the 30gb Reforged client, and of course you won't have access to the HD stuff, but it costs nothing. Show nested quote +On November 21 2024 04:20 WombaT wrote:On November 21 2024 04:04 Slydie wrote:Upkeep is a really, really interesting mechanic too. An anti-snowball that I’m generally surprised more games haven’t experimented with Really? Getting taxed for good macro is not the definition of "fun" for most RTS fans. ‘Good macro’ is often just mashing buttons through some familiar builds and learned patterns of production. WC3 is just generally less macro heavy anyway. A supply cap also penalises people with good macro, just to point that out. Upkeep creates some interesting problems, and some risk and rewards, and is something of an anti-snowball mechanic. - Can I skimp and stay no upkeep, bank money and stick that surplus in items and upgrades? - Do I hit a low upkeep timing if I sense my opponent is deliberately keeping their supply in low upkeep? - Do I go 2 base and in low upkeep, where the second base income bonus outweighs the tax versus 1 base no upkeep? - Do I try to build a super army and turtle, which potentially allows my opponent to bank a big eco advantage, but I may end up with an unkillable army? Amongst other calculations. Call me crazy but in a strategy game I think upkeep really does introduce some interesting questions and there isn’t always an optimal one size fits all solution either. In most other RTS games I’ve played more = better and that’s also fine, but I think it’s a genuinely strategically and tactically interesting idea Yeah this is well said. I also used to think, coming from BW, that upkeep was a stupid mechanic, particularly because I was aware that it was designed around limiting army size for PC performance reasons. But after learning more about high level War3, I discovered the (perhaps unintentional?) genius nuance behind it. In BW, your economy is based around how many workers you build, so the differentiator is a combination of greed, optimal node assignment, and multitasking. In War3, everyone's income is identical, which means the differentiator comes in the form of a mechanic called upkeep. Going into a new upkeep tier puts pressure on you to act: whether that means winning outright or capturing an expansion, because otherwise you're sacrificing 30% or 60% of your total gold income for nothing, which puts your opponent in an economically advantageous situation. So it really comes down to optimizing your decisions and pushing your limits. Very unique and fascinating aspect of the game.
I didn't know you could register the old key! I still have the cd and boxes somewhere at my parents'. Thanks for posting that!
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Northern Ireland26675 Posts
On November 22 2024 01:58 Moonerz wrote:
I was thinking about giving the remaster a chance now that it seems to be in a better place. Just annoyed since I can't find my roc cd key my tft key is just worthless lol and ofc thats the one I was able to locate.
I had my key on my alt SC2 acc (from the days before F2P so I wanted an off race one) and that got hacked 
From a browse it seems plenty are selling unsealed RoC copied for sub 15 dollars on EBay so it shouldn’t be too hard to go that route if you fancy it
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On November 22 2024 01:58 Moonerz wrote:
I was thinking about giving the remaster a chance now that it seems to be in a better place. Just annoyed since I can't find my roc cd key my tft key is just worthless lol and ofc thats the one I was able to locate.
i like it a lot, there are many people critical, and some are even delusional making bold claims the promotional artwork was made by AI, then someone who actually works with ai comes out and says it is 100% not ai and everyones just like... whoops. people invent narratives it seems like at this point the wc3 community cant celebrate the good things, they have their pitchforks out. Grubby i will say however, seems to have a somewhat positive outlook on the 2.0 update which makes me feel like i'm not crazy.
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Northern Ireland26675 Posts
On November 22 2024 11:19 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2024 01:58 Moonerz wrote:
I was thinking about giving the remaster a chance now that it seems to be in a better place. Just annoyed since I can't find my roc cd key my tft key is just worthless lol and ofc thats the one I was able to locate. i like it a lot, there are many people critical, and some are even delusional making bold claims the promotional artwork was made by AI, then someone who actually works with ai comes out and says it is 100% not ai and everyones just like... whoops. people invent narratives it seems like at this point the wc3 community cant celebrate the good things, they have their pitchforks out. Grubby i will say however, seems to have a somewhat positive outlook on the 2.0 update which makes me feel like i'm not crazy.
Grubby’s take was more ‘it might be AI upscaling for all the icons possibly, but who cares?’ and I’m somewhat inclined to agree. I’m absolute not a fan of the plagiarism machine that is generative AI, but this seems to be a legit use case
Granted I’m talking in-game stuff versus promo material
lol look I think in an ideal world it looks like some of the promo material don’t get me wrong.
But I think we’re long past the point it was a genuinely shit remaster, into acceptable territory with recent work. I still don’t think it fully does justice to the masterpiece that is WC3, but it’s pretty solid at this point
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does anything beat pala + bloodmage + rifle + priest in the midgame? wow!
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EPT
