EPTWarcraft III: The Frozen Throne - Page 109
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
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Wrath
3176 Posts
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
120 is just a cut above the rest , the best player won , wc3 is at a level where if you aint throwing the game (looking at you moon  ) , the better play will win.I gotta say , I don't think Wc3 has ever looked so balanced. | ||
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nojok
France15846 Posts
On October 09 2016 22:34 Wrath wrote: To me, Orc vs Und was always undead favored. ALWAYS. With mass forst armor and fast undead units with DK unholy aura and DK healing any unit you try to focus. Orc vs Undead was my most hated match up. What? Probably the most imbalanced match up in the game and I played orc... And also how can you find any match up worse than having a flying army against NE, so much fun facing a one unit army and not having mana to cast more than one spell. Is it based on that game in which lyn got T3 for a useless TC and a canceled pocket expansion? If anything the fact he managed to survive so long after those blunders is very telling. I agree undeads have found new ways and the match up looks more balanced now. | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
Note: yeah i know , too much to ask , we dont want a broken game XD | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
On October 09 2016 22:34 Wrath wrote: To me, Orc vs Und was always undead favored. ALWAYS. With mass forst armor and fast undead units with DK unholy aura and DK healing any unit you try to focus. Orc vs Undead was my most hated match up. That's objectively wrong. Orc/UD IS Orc-favoured, there is no denying that. Just because 120 managed to rise above the fray doesn't make the match-up suddenly balanced. 120 just has near-flawless execution, which contributes a ton to winning against Orc. On the pro scene, things have been tilted towards Orc because there hasn't been a truly awesome UD player since TeD. Still though, you just have to see how easy it is for a BM with a Lightning Orb to tear down a Destroyer, a Fiend or any UD unit for that matter. Frost Armor doesn't matter when the proc from the orb dispells it. | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
On October 10 2016 01:02 Spaylz wrote: That's objectively wrong. Orc/UD IS Orc-favoured, there is no denying that. Just because 120 managed to rise above the fray doesn't make the match-up suddenly balanced. 120 just has near-flawless execution, which contributes a ton to winning against Orc. On the pro scene, things have been tilted towards Orc because there hasn't been a truly awesome UD player since TeD. Still though, you just have to see how easy it is for a BM with a Lightning Orb to tear down a Destroyer, a Fiend or any UD unit for that matter. Frost Armor doesn't matter when the proc from the orb dispells it. Im gonna have to respectfully disagree with this , in any RTS there will always be something "X" favored at some point in time there is no doubt about it , however what we are arguing is the claim that the match was broken in favored of Orc and that is simply not true , and yes 120 and TeD proved it by being awesome and making something work , how many years did Sky tear up the pro scene ? how many orcs and night elves did his casters and towers rape ? countless.....literally countless.....so naturally people complain about the sky push and towers etc....and I remember reading on forums comments like "do you see how easy it is to do X , Y and how Z makes no difference , this match up is broken , nerf this , nerf that" , but at some point sooner or later people rise to the occasion and destroy the "broken myth" and shift the meta so the real question that should be asked at the point is: Was the game broken all along or we as "X" race players didn't figure it out soon enough ? and I'm tilting towards that UDs simply didn't figure it out , now I will concede the fact that figuring out something that works in this match up is fucking hard , no doubt about it. We should look no further than Brood war for more examples of this, especially Bisu and Savior , especially Savior (dont know if I wrote the name right , its that insane zerg who got busted for gambling , nevertheless his play was off the hook good , and dispelled the whole "terran OP" bullshit). Not claiming to be expert , just my noob 2 cents. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
On October 10 2016 01:19 Tchado wrote: Im gonna have to respectfully disagree with this , in any RTS there will always be something "X" favored at some point in time there is no doubt about it , however what we are arguing is the claim that the match was broken in favored of Orc and that is simply not true , and yes 120 and TeD proved it by being awesome and making something work , how many years did Sky tear up the pro scene ? how many orcs and night elves did his casters and towers rape ? countless.....literally countless.....so naturally people complain about the sky push and towers etc....and I remember reading on forums comments like "do you see how easy it is to do X , Y and how Z makes no difference , this match up is broken , nerf this , nerf that" , but at some point sooner or later people rise to the occasion and destroy the "broken myth" and shift the meta so the real question that should be asked at the point is: Was the game broken all along or we as "X" race players didn't figure it out soon enough ? and I'm tilting towards that UDs simply didn't figure it out , now I will concede the fact that figuring out something that works in this match up is fucking hard , no doubt about it. We should look no further than Brood war for more examples of this, especially Bisu and Savior , especially Savior (dont know if I wrote the name right , its that insane zerg who got busted for gambling , nevertheless his play was off the hook good , and dispelled the whole "terran OP" bullshit). Not claiming to be expert , just my noob 2 cents. I've watched a lot of UD vs. Orc match-ups, and to me it comes down to this: how many mistakes can each player make? Generally speaking, the Orc player has more leeway in his play style and can afford to make more mistakes than the UD player. Whether it's taking too much damage on your hero early on (a huge pain for UDs who pretty much have no way of regenerating HPs quickly) or losing heroes, rebuying them and still being in the game; there are tons of factors. I believe that it genuinely requires more effort for the UD to win than the opposite. Which indicates a balance problem. Some players overcome it, sure. Players like TeD, who came up with innovative strategies, or players like 120 who make very few mistakes in their execution. But it doesn't change the fact that it is difficult for an Undead to beat an Orc player of similar skill level. Orcs tends to creep faster, they tend to control the map a lot more, they harass better and they tend to have more DPS output almost single handedly due to the Blademaster. | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
On October 10 2016 01:52 Spaylz wrote: I've watched a lot of UD vs. Orc match-ups, and to me it comes down to this: how many mistakes can each player make? Generally speaking, the Orc player has more leeway in his play style and can afford to make more mistakes than the UD player. Whether it's taking too much damage on your hero early on (a huge pain for UDs who pretty much have no way of regenerating HPs quickly) or losing heroes, rebuying them and still being in the game; there are tons of factors. I believe that it genuinely requires more effort for the UD to win than the opposite. Which indicates a balance problem. Some players overcome it, sure. Players like TeD, who came up with innovative strategies, or players like 120 who make very few mistakes in their execution. But it doesn't change the fact that it is difficult for an Undead to beat an Orc player of similar skill level. Orcs tends to creep faster, they tend to control the map a lot more, they harass better and they tend to have more DPS output almost single handedly due to the Blademaster. I agree with the fact that yes it is still tough to be an orc of equal skill as a UD , but I think this problem is slowly going away , that is my whole argument  and btw you said : "Orcs tends to creep faster, they tend to control the map a lot more, they harass better and they tend to have more DPS output almost single handedly due to the Blademaster" You just described every Orc game since they discovered the blade master XD , or perhaps I suck | ||
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lestye
United States4280 Posts
On October 10 2016 00:50 nojok wrote: I agree undeads have found new ways and the match up looks more balanced now. idk that sounds a bit premature. I'd want to see a few undead championships in a decent sized tournaments before I'd go for that far. | ||
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HsDLTitich
Italy831 Posts
On October 10 2016 04:49 lestye wrote: idk that sounds a bit premature. I'd want to see a few undead championships in a decent sized tournaments before I'd go for that far. * | ||
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lestye
United States4280 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On October 10 2016 01:57 Tchado wrote: I agree with the fact that yes it is still tough to be an orc of equal skill as a UD , but I think this problem is slowly going away , that is my whole argument and btw you said : "Orcs tends to creep faster, they tend to control the map a lot more, they harass better and they tend to have more DPS output almost single handedly due to the Blademaster" You just described every Orc game since they discovered the blade master XD , or perhaps I suck The thing about 120 is that I don't think you realize how perfect his control (not micro) of his army is. He makes in engagement split second reads better than any player for any race. It's very subtle, but if you play out his fights with other top UDs against the same opponent, it wouldn't be as favorable. Like I think some of us have watched enough games where it's very clear that even at the height of TeD/Happy's prime, they didn't have 120's control. I remember first seeing him and just being amazed at how well he engages and the outcome of his battles against top players. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
On October 09 2016 22:34 Wrath wrote: To me, Orc vs Und was always undead favored. ALWAYS. With mass forst armor and fast undead units with DK unholy aura and DK healing any unit you try to focus. Orc vs Undead was my most hated match up. There was a time when most great UD players (ReiGn, Luci, Susi, Fov etc.) were forced to retire because UvO was a joke. That was historically the saddest MU, mostly thanks to BM | ||
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Urth
United States1256 Posts
On October 11 2016 11:52 Arceus wrote: There was a time when most great UD players (ReiGn, Luci, Susi, Fov etc.) were forced to retire because UvO was a joke. That was historically the saddest MU, mostly thanks to BM UvO was really orc favored before players even started using BM. | ||
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lestye
United States4280 Posts
Foggy and 120 in the first round of the playoffs. My heart is broken! Infi vs Lyn is probably going to be the best game of the first round though. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
On October 12 2016 02:57 Urth wrote: UvO was really orc favored before players even started using BM. No it wasn't. Far Seer was really vulnerable to UD nuke and had much more trouble slowing down UD creeping than BM. Tier 2 was tricky but UD wasn't chronically behind so being restricted for a while before T3 wasn't as punishing. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
On October 12 2016 07:10 lestye wrote: https://twitter.com/YoanMerlo/status/785830054886465538 Foggy and 120 in the first round of the playoffs. My heart is broken! Infi vs Lyn is probably going to be the best game of the first round though. Both Undead players in the same bracket. That's a damn shame. 120 will likely roll over Happy if they make it through. And UD mirror is so dreadfully boring... | ||
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
and now Foggy with hunts -> expansions -> mass t2 (?) vs xioakk. Nice to see | ||
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Urth
United States1256 Posts
On October 12 2016 10:45 Amarok wrote: No it wasn't. Far Seer was really vulnerable to UD nuke and had much more trouble slowing down UD creeping than BM. Tier 2 was tricky but UD wasn't chronically behind so being restricted for a while before T3 wasn't as punishing. There's no doubt BM made things worse, but UvO was the most imbalanced matchup even before BM became popular. | ||
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