as an ex CAL-I CS Player who also went to a few CPL's - the main issue with FPS's at the moment are the games themselves.
it's a mix of quake and counter-strike - running around twitch shots with a shit load of different guns you pick to start with. imo the worst of both.
Quake is great because it's all about map control Counter-Strike is great because it's all about strategy
Somehow that has been lost and instead we are force fed this overbred pile of shit that is FPS today. Pretty graphics, nice sun flare effects, quick death, quick respawn.
So in order to bring FPS back to it's former glory we need a game to provide us the platform to do so, but at the moment (even CS:GO has fallen short; although it's a very big improvement over CS:S) there are no games to offer us that.
For me, no other fps has ever managed to capture the glory of cs 1.6. CSS was horrible, and CSGO is not bad at all but it still just isn't as fun as the original for some reason. I never really got into the Quake games but I have huge respect for those guys, that is easily the most demanding fps purely from a skill PoV.
As for CoD or Halo, I don't really have much of an opinion on those because they're primarily aimed at gamepad users.
What's really missing from FPS's IMO is a dedicated spectator perspective. Possibly an overhead camera that can see everything happening as it's happening. The problem is that watching from the same camera view as the players is inherently bad for spectators because you can only see what the players see which is obviously very different from SC2 and LoL.
Bear in mind that in most live tournaments, the spectators who are there can see all eight screens as well as the one being shown on stream.
The casters are able to jump to who they want to spectate, so they can pick the guy who is doing the most important thing at the time. Though it's interesting, I had never really considered the spectating aspect as the problem with FPS, rather the games themselves (as Norway said).
On February 14 2013 08:59 idonthinksobro wrote: Fps is really boring to watch, that's all.
This.
Take Natural Selection 2 for instance. It is currently my most played game. It has the amazing strategy of a TvZ. The very familiar FPS style game play. The iconic sort of alien vs human in space thing going on.
Is it fun to watch, even as a player? Nooooot really. From a top down point of view fps's are very bland and boring, the aesthetics are not designed for it like in an actual RTS. First person point of view? You've got only a very small picture of the entire game. Quake with its 1v1 is probably the best for first person view spectating, because that is the entire game.
Sure, NS2 doesn't have anywhere near as much publicity of some of the heavy hitters, but if it did I still couldn't see it competing for views to the degree top down games are.
On February 14 2013 08:59 idonthinksobro wrote: Fps is really boring to watch, that's all.
But that's just what you think, as you like Moba/SC2 (I don't know which, sorry). The FPS community obviously don't find them boring to watch. I've had more tension and excitement watching Halo 3 than I have watching SC2.
I mean, look at this. It's obviously not the same scale as SC2 or LoL but no one can deny the tension of that situation (first 2 minutes), where if Str8 lost they would take 2nd place, to win it at the death. Having watched the whole game I can assure you I thought it was all over, for them to bring it back like that was phenomenal.
Excitement in FPS games has died down because the games themselves a worse, I think.
Fighting games are definitely the best spectator esport. Whether or not they are the best esports is a different story, but if you are talking about random non-gamer audiences, then there's really no argument
I think a fundamental problem with FPS games as an esport is that they're hard to spectate. It's difficult to get an overall picture of what's going on in team games.
I do think that with the right support, Black Ops can compete. It has too large a player base to not be able to.
The problem is that there is no current FPS to bridge the massive divides that exist in the FPS community. Ignoring the classic split of console vs PC on the shooter question there really isnt a great modern PC shooter to take the helm that Ive played lately which basically leaves console games. Of the console games you would of course focus on the Xbox because thats the console for competitive FPS.
That basically leaves you with Gears Cod and Halo. Of those 3 CoD is the most popular but I feel its gameplay is probably the weakest of the 3 for a viewing experience but it does have developer support which is important. Gears I could probably say the same thing with even though they both play at virtual opposite ends of the spectrum That leaves the 3rd game Halo which I feel has the best gameplay for a FPS experience but the least developemental support of the three which truly truly shows in there recent events basically garnering the same viewer count (the 40k at MLG for Halo 4 not withstanding).
Basically FPS in order to break out and compete in the big market needs gameplay that can be attractive to an audience WITH developer support and so far no game has made that magical leap forward. I would keep an eye on the latest Bungie project Destiny but I dont like to get to hyped over things I havnt played yet.
On February 12 2013 07:37 Larkin wrote: In fact, the consistent level of entertaining plays coming from FPS can be higher than SC2 (certainly in the current metagame)as shown in this example.
well.. compared to mediacore q3 highlight videos, that one is still lacking. then again that might be because I dont know that much halo, or I know alot of q3. but then again too, it might be that halo is just not good enough. back then fps was the king, quake, then cs. they ruled the scene.
I revitilize the scene, maybe we just need a good fps game first.
I gotta give some props to Red 5 on this issue, and how they're trying to enhance and support a much better and more rounded spectator mode for their FPS. I really hope the rest of the FPS scene catches on and makes better spectator modes of their own.
On February 15 2013 14:25 Wangsta wrote: Fighting games are definitely the best spectator esport. Whether or not they are the best esports is a different story, but if you are talking about random non-gamer audiences, then there's really no argument
WARNING : INCOMING HUGE WALL OF TEXT ON FPS / FAST FPS
On February 12 2013 03:16 Savant wrote: I'm surprised nobody's developed a spectator mode with a top-down view of the map, avatars, weapons, and stats. I think it'd be more watchable.
On February 13 2013 15:12 Vindicare605 wrote: What's really missing from FPS's IMO is a dedicated spectator perspective. Possibly an overhead camera that can see everything happening as it's happening. The problem is that watching from the same camera view as the players is inherently bad for spectators because you can only see what the players see which is obviously very different from SC2 and LoL.
It exists in cs 1.6. you have this kind of "tactical map" view in spectator mode, and if you hit "e" while using that view you can add a third person cam of some player ( which you can cycle through ) in the top left corner of the screen. 1.6 is pretty much the best esport fps ever with quake being the best fast fps. The issue is that dev teams kept ruining the game. 1.5 to 1.6 changed a few things ( hardcore players will remember deagle awp switch and the likes ... ), but not a whole lot. And yet it went for a free mod for hl to a full game you have to pay for from 1.5 to 1.6. AND valved shut down the WON system to force the players to switch over. And what you used to get after buying half life you now have to pay for, with no alternative ( as you can't play 1.5 aynmore ) and the change is mostly just a patch. But oh wait : 1.6 added the shield i belive, which is so freaking bad that it wasn't just banned in tournaments, even your average public server has it banned, so essentially the dev just added something completely useless which everybody hates.
Then you had condition zero, which was working on the same engine but had a few different things to it, mostly graphic and some gameplay changes. The gameplay changes are effing terrible ( HE nade kills in 1 hit HELLO, wallbangs greatly reduced HELLO, trololo recoil HELLO etc ... ) and the graphics are basically just high res textures and different skins. In games like cs you can freely mod the sh*t out of your game by changing skins and stuff, like having a lightsaber replace the knife etc etc... so basically most graphic changes are not worth it. Oh and they added new maps to this game, but those were basically the maps from the original game, except worse. I'm not sure CZ was made by the game creators tho, i think it was some guys from the community or something.
Then you had source, which was even worse. No wallbangs, except in some wooden doors and very thin metal walls ( nuke ) and grenades take 0 skill. You see in 1.6, when you throw a grenade, because of the game physics you have all those kind of rebounds and stuff. Nades bounce off in various ways. So you have to LEARN how they bounce off; and it becomes a SKILL to throw nades. Some of the most impressive things i've seen involve, for instance, a flashbang i've seen ave from mtw do, where you open the door on nuke and throw the flash on the top left corner of the door AS IT OPENS, thus making it bounce up. In source flashes and nades don't bounce off like that. So if you're faced with a wall that has a certain angle to it, there is very little you can do with it. This is counter balanced by the fact that in source, if somebody flashes you you will 100% BE BLIND FOR FREAKING SECONDS. This point is very important because in 1.6, if you just turn around when the flash comes ( understand : 180 degree turn, basically look in the opposite direction of the flash ) you won't be blinded. Hence why in 1.6 people have learned to throw flashbangs properly, people have learned the various angles and flashes you can use. This means that flashing is very interactive, it's not just about you using it on other players and them being blind hurp durp. It's also about having it used against you and you countering it to an extent. ( sc2 analogy : Z makes banelings vs T's marines BUT T can split marines and doesn't just DIE because zerg made unit B while terran had unit A. In turn Zergs have learned to surround the marines first, or send banelings from two directions etc etc ) Basically nades take pretty much no skill in source compared to 1.6. And it's very frustrating to have them used against you because there is NOTHING you can do. They did change this a little bit ( a little bit, not as in "1.6 style" ) near GO's launch ( maybe the year prior to that ). Still wasn't a good game. Also source has many things that are just straight up terrible, such as its netcode, where people often die while being behind walls ( not through wallbang ). Basically it's like there's a 1 second lag built within the game, and while you're behind your wall, you eat the bullet that was shot at you 1 second ago, when you showed half your body so you could fire 2 bullets from your m4 or something. This is obvious with the awp. Pistols are overpowered in source, especially the deagle, tho this isn't as much by choice, it's more due to the fact that the engine just isn't designed properly for this type of game. It would help a lot of you had tagging like in 1.6 ( basically when you get hit in 1.6, if you don't have kevlar you will be slowed for 1.5 seconds after the hit, your accuracy is also a bit reduced. This is i belive fairly important to reducing the "cost eifficiency" of pistols vs gear, thus greatly affecting eco rounds. ) but it doesn't. And don't even get me started on GO, for this game basically just shows how retarded the devs are.
Now that you have ( or haven't ) read this huge wall of text explaining why the counter strike franchise is never going to be even close to lol / sc2, i have to tell you why quake failed. This is fairly easy as there are only two big reasons : - QUAKE 4 was a failure, because, just like counter strike ( and to an extent sc2 ) the devs failed to understand why people loved their game. - Quake 3 arena / promod / osp and now QL is FREAKING HARD ! That killed the casual scene. Seriously the gap is far closer to brood war noob / pro than sc2 noob / pro, where you have the impression that you can reproduce a lot of what you see on stream. Also streaming wasn't that big before 2010 and so quake just didn't benefit from those " viewers but not players ". When your casual scene dies off you have only a very small core of hardcore gamers to watch events. Because there aren't many noobs, and because the game involves so much skill, newcomers get roflraped, ( as opposed to a call of duty where any 14 yo kid can buy the game and get some kills after less than 30 minutes of playing, and without prior fps experience. ) which doesn't exactly help creating a good atmosphere for noobs to enjoy the game and stay. Which leaves with mostly the fun mods the noobs don't usually know about, like defrag, to have fun. And even then i mean to properly enjoy defrag you already need to know a fu*klot about the game ( strafe jumping, rj'ing, plasma elevator etc etc ).
Halo is never going to be big unless huge changes are made to its gameplay. In fact halo isn't big outside of the U.S. Also console gaming is generally considered a joke, as gamepads are hugely inefficient compared to the superior accuracy of a mouse and the superior amount of buttons a keyboard has to offer. Basically only sports and fightning games really benefit from the gamepad compared to mouse + keyboard. Compare that to 1.6 where you have to hit that one pixel hitbox to get the deagle oneshot. Keyboard doesn't really provide THAT much more in fps / fast fps, except when it comes to buy menu in cs and weapon switching in ql. There i just b82 kevlar b14 deagle b42 rifle b7 ammos b84 he etc etc etc ... And in quake it's mostly because, as is common with good fast fps(es), you can carry all the guns that you like ( not limited to primary secondary ). And because quake is so intrinsincally good and well designed, the weapons are all VERY different. Some have hitscans ( hits directly when you click, like a pistol ) some take time to reach target ( like the rocket launcher where you have to anticipate greatly, and sometimes take a guess "is he gonna dodge left or right ?" ) and some have limited range, be it physically ( like the shaft, i love my teslapistole but if it had unlimited range like a rail it would be freaking imbalaneced ) or by them just being terrible past a certain range ( shotgun, i hate that thing seriously. It's half a troll gun, kind of like if dan was maybe not god tier but close to it yet still had is super that does nothing from SF4 ) So the result of that is that you need to get the right gun right away, it's not like you have pistol a and pistol b, or ak / galil m4 / famas.
Sh*tmania is not going to take off. Tribes ascend just isn't good enough ( not just compared to previous tribes, just generally speaking ). The "yellow" of fast fps, unreal tournament just isn't coming back. Painkiller is also not coming back.
Fast fps is a dead genre, and modern fps are bad games designed to appeal to casuals, including 14 yo kids who don't want to learn how to play, but rather want an interactive movie where they get killed but also get to kill and where there isn't too much thinking ( no brain involved, hahahaha ozstriker is 100% useless now ) and little skill involved so they don't have to "learn" things, they just get instant and completely undeserved reward .
That's it for the fps / fast fps rant. Now i don't know about other games, but i think sports games just don't appeal to enough people. Fighting games also don't appeal very much to people, not because " their community isn't politically correct enough, it's bad " as people on tl seem to think, but rather because fighting games that are worth watching involve skill which often isn't very intuitive for most people, who i belive, think fighting games are mostly about random button smashing, can't see the mindgames ( can't blame them for that, you gotta have a certain amount of knowledge for that ) going on. I don't really see what other genre could compete.
I hope it was readable, at least for the ones who had the will to read it. I might edit it / spoiler some parts, i'm just not sure how to yet. Can't randomly cut things off.
Edit : what those guys said :
On February 13 2013 15:08 AnomalySC2 wrote: For me, no other fps has ever managed to capture the glory of cs 1.6. CSS was horrible, and CSGO is not bad at all but it still just isn't as fun as the original for some reason. I never really got into the Quake games but I have huge respect for those guys, that is easily the most demanding fps purely from a skill PoV.
As for CoD or Halo, I don't really have much of an opinion on those because they're primarily aimed at gamepad users.
On February 13 2013 14:53 Norway wrote: as an ex CAL-I CS Player who also went to a few CPL's - the main issue with FPS's at the moment are the games themselves.
it's a mix of quake and counter-strike - running around twitch shots with a shit load of different guns you pick to start with. imo the worst of both.
Quake is great because it's all about map control Counter-Strike is great because it's all about strategy
Somehow that has been lost and instead we are force fed this overbred pile of shit that is FPS today. Pretty graphics, nice sun flare effects, quick death, quick respawn.
So in order to bring FPS back to it's former glory we need a game to provide us the platform to do so, but at the moment (even CS:GO has fallen short; although it's a very big improvement over CS:S) there are no games to offer us that.
/rant
Most people in this thread have absolutely no idea what they are talking about ( talking about lack of camera, talking about "FPS NOT A WATCHABLE ESPORT LOLOLO CONGRATZ ON UR ABILITY TO AIM". 1.6 and quake are both very easily watchable, easy cameras, quake doesn't have "overview" like cs does , but that's because there is no need, it's a freaking 1v1 game. And to the other troll : cs 1.6 and ql take infinitely more brain and skill than maxing out on three bases and then smashing your deathball against the opponent's deathball like stephano just did against effort in round 3 )
Also I believe you've made a proper FPS when you also have skill movies coming out.
Man I remember so many CS movies, not only did they expose me to really great music that I would have never even heard of but it also provided feedback on how pro's were playing the game, where they were playing, how they controlled recoil - it made you want to elevate yourself to that level and I think the main reason why I got so sucked into the game and wanted to accomplish and wanted to be in someone's skill video.
edit - Also when I think about it, I don't think I've made more friends playing any other game than I have through playing Counter-Strike - Clans, competitive leagues, servers based in your city or near your city, IRC clan channels - SO many more venues to be very interactive within your community, whether it be overall or finding local players. I think right now that is what almost ALL games are lacking, a sense of community - that's what I think I miss the most. I remember after a match wanting to follow other clan's matches, so i'd either hop into their HLTV server to watch or flip to their IRC channel where they had a bot updating kills & deaths live in channel.
A kills B A kills C A kills D Oooooo A kills E Ooooooooo F Kills A CT's win the round Oh damn haha
I also give you the movie that kicked it all off (for me anyways) - Frag or Die
On February 16 2013 12:07 Marti wrote: *snip giant quote*
I want to cover the part about how CS 1.6 was so much more "skillful".
Your attitude is typical of the old school CS/DotA players in their attitude towards more modern games of the genre, and to you I'd pose a question: Would it make the game better if I made it so that bullets always went slightly up and to the right of the crosshairs even on the first shot? It'd make the game harder and take time to learn, but it'd make the crosshair fucking pointless because it doesn't ever tell you where the bullets are going to go.
This is the same thing with stuff like wallbangs in CS and animation canceling in DotA. It's hard to learn and represents bugs/deficiencies that came with the old ass engines that these games are running. When people FIX those bugs, you flip your shit and call the game "EZ mode" because you no longer have to fight outdated technology and can actually focus on... you know, PLAYING THE FUCKING GAME rather than learning all sorts of tricks to cheat the engine.
It's no less impressive for someone in CS:GO or CSS to pull off a brilliant flank and triple kill a team than it is in 1.6, and it takes no less skill or reaction time to pull of a fantastic initiation in HoN/LoL than in DotA. Just because the games aren't broken doesn't mean they don't require skill or practice to be good at, or are inferior. I'm not gonna say CS:S and HoN/LoL are perfect games, they all have their issues, but this perceived "difficulty" thing isn't one of them.
Bringing the discussion back to what makes things fun to watch, animation cancelling in DotA and controlling the wider sprays in 1.6 are things that 90% of spectators don't even notice. So even if they do require more "skill" and are harder to pull off, they don't do shit in making it more fun to watch. The inherent problem with FPSs from a spectator standpoint is that it's impossible to cover everything going on at once. Let's say everyone is at long A in Dust2,, you have 5 people covering 5 different angles on BOTH teams, an aerial view is shit because it doesn't show where the bullets are going, all you can commentate on is the one person you're viewing and when someone dies.
I think 2 things can improve the FPS scene for a spectator: enhanced tools (instant replay, realtime damage reports, etc. the Red5 thing shown above is a good example of a decent start) and casting from replays. These things happen too fast to be entertaining live the vast majority of the time, if you can set them up on a highlight reel or cast them from replays where you can focus on the important parts of the match while they're going on, you'll have a much more entertaining experience.
I think the major weakness of FPS games in this regard is clearly the camera. The viewing experience just isn't good, particularly in team based shooters.
Also, both dota 2 and SC2 have awesome casters right now, who make jumping into the action remarkably easy.
I always enjoyed watching talent as in random sport, art or whatever. Watched quite a lot of professorial play in games as well but I always hated the perspective of it when it comes to FPS.
Starcraft is more natural to watch somehow. FPS is often observed in the first person view and their pow move so quick and they do so much stuff that I get pretty tired of watching.
Much nicer with a guy pointing at stuff in a base and being all analytic. The perspective is that of an "observer" because it's what you are supposed to be when you play, some kind of general having overview and giving orders.
Umm guys.. SPL ran Special Force 2 and I really enjoyed it. When they would release vods of people playing BW I would afterwards watch the SF2 vods. FPS games are shitty right now, when you talk about the mainstream ones that the most people play. Much like how I think most people can agree that CoD is not as demanding as Quake when it comes to map dominance, this works more in CoDs favor as this allows a huge base of casuals. The issue is that without this ability to really control the flow of game past fundamentals, though there is some abilitity to control the flow of the game in games like CoD and moreso in Halo, pros are harder to define from pubstomping joes; from what I have seen from GameBattles on CoD, some of those players are not at all different from the players on Optic. This is much different from the teams that play SC2 or LoL where pros are very different from joes. CS and Quake are a bit different, but that would be my hypotheis as to why those never took off as much.
EPT
