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On February 12 2013 07:43 NeonFlare wrote:
I really hope someone could make a FPS or TPS in a style similar to GunZ without it's problems, the amount of mobility the players can have is ridiculous, though you probably get into even faster linear speed with Quake's circlejump stuff. Most of the shooters just tend to be cover based (in case of TPS) or very Arcadey in COD sense (FPS) these days.
Usually games can be confusing to watch if you don't play the game or those similar to it. It's also hard to appreciate the skill if it isn't very easily distinguishable from the visuals, of course it helps to have commentator or two to give it an icing by explaining the not so clear stuff while accompanied some play-by-play.
GunZ yes. 1v1 duel was awesome to watch.
The problem I find with watching CS-style FPS's is that the action is often too fast and your vision too narrow. It's very easy to miss things and without knowing the map layout well, it just looks like people show up out of nowhere.
Quake is also really hard to watch due to not understanding exactly how the timers on the buffs work. You'll see people jumping around the map seemingly at random but it's all very calculated.
While SC2 and LoL require a lot of knowledge to properly spectate, the action is quite a bit more obvious. Army vs army, one guy wins. Fighting games are also pretty easy to watch in the same sense--the spectator isn't necessarily going to understand the difficulty of performing certain moves or combos but the action and flow of the game is very obvious.
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I've never really felt that team FPS would make a good spectator e-sport, but 1v1 FPS games have always held a spot in my heart and I think watching them, as well as playing is a blast. It makes me really sad there isn't much competition in the 1v1 category anymore ever since UT2k4 and Quake faded away.
When the money went to Painkiller that was popular for a very short amount of time, and then after that as far as I know, no other 1v1 FPS games really blasted out and made a big impact.
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Hm, so perhaps games like Halo 2 and 3 where the kill times were actually quite long (compared to CS/CoD) are the better choice for an FPS flagship? Since it gives players the chance to get away from fights they can't win, thus rewarding teamshooting and encouraging accuracy if headshots do more damage.
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Team FPS have never been fun to watch imo. There's just not very much that is very visually stimulating from a viewer perspective. This is for a lot of reasons... Bullets not being very visually stimulating, strategies usually aren't as intricate, and one big issue is players die a lot faster making the fight's not as entertaining.
For example CS was featured at some tournaments I've went to that also featured SC2... OMG it's so boring to watch, I don't know how people could stand it. It had a FAR smaller crowd than SC2 did at those events, and at one in particular (IEM) SC2 was about to start but was getting delayed because CS was going on so long. Just mentioning Day9 as the caster made the crowd erupt louder than they were the entire CS tournament. And since the CS teams had to win by 2, it got delayed longer and longer as both teams went 1-1 back and forth. Every single time either team won the entire crowd started boo'ing, because they wanted it to end so SC2 could start. It was bad...
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I guess in this kind of realm i have a few things to say, though just my personal opinions.
Unfortunately for FPS, the genre these days is dominated in terms of public play by the COD's, blackops and halo's.
Not saying that they are bad games, but they never created the competitive element or atmosphere that SC, counterstrike (hell even NS2) did.
Those games were built for a specific purpose - for your average joe who likes some games to play, and to sell a TON of copies, over and over again, every year.
Then they are built to the purpose of generating "ESPORT" as some form of marketing.
Unfortunately, there is quite a lot less focus on what actually most gamers want and enjoy out of the game, which is the gameplay itself.
I think MMO's are the classic of this feature as basically a HUGE and VAST majority of mmo's have boiled down to the WoW/Lineage (or however you want to describe it) formula.
I mean, what happened to Ragnarok? Ultima? You'll never see games like that again because of the domination and saturation of that genre into the market.
You'll never see CS or Quake ever in the market again because it wasn't built to sell a million copies, it was built to be a great game, which are two very different things (though generally correlated to some extent).
The same kind of innovation and genius that created those games will never break the CoD market.
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DotA and LoL are unique because in their own way, they were the FIRST into the market. Also DotA being a carbon copy of DotA1 is a HUGE powerplay from valve (and a great one, true salute to them)
DotA was not built to sell trillions of copies (it's free) - it was built by a group of guys (who then became icefrog but i'll leave out the history lessons of eul and danite etc.) who just wanted to make a good game.
If for some reason, valve decides to make "dota 3" (or rather, had made dota2 to be some genuine sequel like HoN was supposed to be) - then you'll see a repeat of the utter failure that is the CoD or the MMO/WoW market.
It's for this reason that DotA and LoL will dominate the market of "esports".
SC2 will eventually fade away - it has nice intentions, but it was built on the "sell tons of copies and use ESPORTS as marketing" - as opposed to BW which was built on the "make a great game".
BW will have the true legacy of esports (and would have continued on if SC2 never came into play) - it was the first one and relied on excellent gameplay that developed it's community that way.
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Maybe there will be another genre. Another wave of innovation focused on great gameplay (as opposed to selling copies) - the same innovation that make our quakes, our ragnaroks, our CS, our BW's, our DotA.
Or maybe not.
But it's a hell of a challenge to try and kick the CoD's out of the market with a game that was made for people to play instead of sell alot.
If that happened, then yeah, i can see esports being focused on FPS maybe.
There are certainly plenty of games out there which are great (hell, NS2 is great and NS1. Tribes not so much so cause hi-rez kind of sold out and switched to the sell copies mode instead of make great game mode), but the market is already dominated.
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On February 12 2013 03:12 RustySpork wrote:
I think that one reason that esports hasn't taken off so much for fps games is that to watch it, you pretty much just have to watch one person's view, and this might mean you miss other action going on (assuming it is a team fps). With starcraft or mobas, you don't need to see a person's view to be able to appreciate their skill. I think that is quite a big difference. I don' think FPS games are the future of esports, at least, not for the next 20 years or so. I think that FPS games nowadays that could be contenders for being an esports are too casual, and not made with esports in mind. Also, i don't think there can be a hugely successful esport that is mainly played on a console. The fact is, the console scene is far too casual and isn't interested in watching the best at their particular game play against each other, the market just ins't there.
This pretty much sums it up. The third person bird's eye view is perfect for spectating, first person is not. And if an FPS ever does become a successful e-sport, it will be through the PC rather than the console, since e-sports for LoL and SC2 thrives on streaming.
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The Reasons that make FPS more mainstream, are the same exact reasons that make it a terrible Esport, and is why Casuals dont give a shit about esports.
Nobody watches CoD, Halo, etc and goes "WOW that guy is freaking amazing! holy cow! what a demonstration of skill!" (Im not mentioning Quake, as i never followed it... or CS even). But even comparing Quake or CS to Halo/Cod is a JOKE. The skill gap/cieling is MUCH smaller in those games. Which is why Casuals enjoy them. Casual players enjoy simpler games - fact.
Also, team fps games are a JOKE to spectate/follow. Its simply not possible, and it has nothing to do with lack of spectating modes. There is just simply "And here we see team A..shooting Team B." Anything past that is a bit of a stretch imo.
IMO it would be ridiculous for him to say "Ya FPS are dying... and will be out of esports soon" He makes a living off of FPS in esports. Ofcourse he is going to say that FPS are the future of esports, lol. That's where he comes from. The fact is that Casual players, are NOT interested in Esports. Do you know how many CoD/Halo players actually watch MLG? Literally look at the stream numbers, and the empty chairs at MLG and you can get an easy explination as to why FPS are NOT the future of esports.
People love the current Esports - LoL, Dota, SC2, because they are demonstrations of mental skill. They show strategy and critical thinking, that you do not see outside of competitive sports. We see exhibitions of mental skill. The same way people watch conventional sports for physical skill and ability demonstrations.
When you get into CoD/halo you dont get extreme mental or physical skills. It's all twitch reactions.
I don't see team FPS ever becoming a major Esports player, simply because the average CoD/Halo player is too much of a drooling fratboy knuckle dragger to ever give a shit enough about anything but their own K/D ratio and bragging on facebook.
Not to mention.... Cod/halo are console driven... how many of u watch video streams/tourneys through ur Xbox or PS3? Thats what I thought.
Good luck Walshy, but i think ur prediction is a joke.
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You didn't just pick up Quake and played 1vs1 and think you could ever get close to where the pro-scene was.
In that sense Quake is the easiest game to pickup but damn hard to master and go anywhere close to the top.
Watching pros duke it out in Quake was so fun.
I can't believe it's been shafted from MLG.
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The problem with shooter games is that there is no efficient way of spectating, thus why it cannot become a good eSport, there are good games out there, but if you cannot consistently and apprehensively spectate it, it will not become mainstream.
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If an FPS want's to be an esport and a team game, it can't be TDM. 1v1 duel is fine to watch because you can follow pretty much everything. Sure it's still hard to appreciate mechanics (ex. strafe jumping in quake), but that's the same for someone watching ex. starcraft without any game knowledge. If you want to make a team FPS watchable, you really need to focus on something like CTF, and not have it happen inside. Make watching the FPS more like watching a game of football, but with 2 balls. Tribes:ascend does an ok job, too bad the mechanics are fundamentally broken.
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Maybe the pro player should not complain while competing in Halo LOL. If he was a Quake or CS player I might take him more seriously.
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FPS will never be E-Sports as long as they are mature rated games. Make them 12+ or 16+, so you can actually show them before 22:00 (I think that's the time set by German law). Else: No chance, at least in Germany.
Imo the trends are just always changing. FPS -> RTS -> MOBA. Maybe in a few years FPS will be the focus again.
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Its cute that he thinks halo and cod etc, are actually competing with sc2 and LoL, they attract completely different audiences.
besides both those games a pretty unsuited to becoming esports when u consider their competition within the fps genre.
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On February 12 2013 10:34 MaestroSC wrote:
The Reasons that make FPS more mainstream, are the same exact reasons that make it a terrible Esport, and is why Casuals dont give a shit about esports.
Nobody watches CoD, Halo, etc and goes "WOW that guy is freaking amazing! holy cow! what a demonstration of skill!" (Im not mentioning Quake, as i never followed it... or CS even). But even comparing Quake or CS to Halo/Cod is a JOKE. The skill gap/cieling is MUCH smaller in those games. Which is why Casuals enjoy them. Casual players enjoy simpler games - fact.
Also, team fps games are a JOKE to spectate/follow. Its simply not possible, and it has nothing to do with lack of spectating modes. There is just simply "And here we see team A..shooting Team B." Anything past that is a bit of a stretch imo.
IMO it would be ridiculous for him to say "Ya FPS are dying... and will be out of esports soon" He makes a living off of FPS in esports. Ofcourse he is going to say that FPS are the future of esports, lol. That's where he comes from. The fact is that Casual players, are NOT interested in Esports. Do you know how many CoD/Halo players actually watch MLG? Literally look at the stream numbers, and the empty chairs at MLG and you can get an easy explination as to why FPS are NOT the future of esports.
People love the current Esports - LoL, Dota, SC2, because they are demonstrations of mental skill. They show strategy and critical thinking, that you do not see outside of competitive sports. We see exhibitions of mental skill. The same way people watch conventional sports for physical skill and ability demonstrations.
When you get into CoD/halo you dont get extreme mental or physical skills. It's all twitch reactions.
I don't see team FPS ever becoming a major Esports player, simply because the average CoD/Halo player is too much of a drooling fratboy knuckle dragger to ever give a shit enough about anything but their own K/D ratio and bragging on facebook.
Not to mention.... Cod/halo are console driven... how many of u watch video streams/tourneys through ur Xbox or PS3? Thats what I thought.
Good luck Walshy, but i think ur prediction is a joke.
What a childish and incorrect attitude. People DO watch Halo and think "man, this guy is amazing, I wish I could do that." I was pretty freaking good at it and was still nowhere near pro level. Watching Halo at MLG was always a revelation because of the new strategies and ways of playing the teams had developed. To think they don't require mental or physical skill beyond "twitch" is just plain wrong.
The reason people aren't interested in Halo anymore is because the games after Halo 3 SUCKED. They weren't fun to play and they weren't fun to watch. The community is huge but they're not going to watch or play something they don't enjoy - and many of the pros feel the same way.
Yes, they are console driven, and that's a major problem with it that he identifies, if you actually read the article.
On February 12 2013 21:30 -Archangel- wrote:
Maybe the pro player should not complain while competing in Halo LOL. If he was a Quake or CS player I might take him more seriously.
That's absolutely ridiculous. A player's opinion on eSports isn't dependent on the game he plays. The man's been in the scene since 2001. He's the grandfather of FPS.
On February 12 2013 22:16 Rorra wrote:
Its cute that he thinks halo and cod etc, are actually competing with sc2 and LoL, they attract completely different audiences.
besides both those games a pretty unsuited to becoming esports when u consider their competition within the fps genre.
That's not what he says at all, did you read the article? He says they CANNOT compete.
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FPS as a watchable e-sport? Not a chance. Congrats on your ability to aim with a mouse, but it's just not that exciting to watch.
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On February 12 2013 07:37 Larkin wrote:
Interesting about fighting games though. MLG has kept them going for a while but they've never attracted huge crowds, though EVO is always a success.
That's cause the fighting game community almost unanimously hates MLG and prefer community tournaments, EVO being -the- premier community tournament.
Though IPL picking up Capcom fighting games might actually bring traditional "esports" and the FGC closer, given IPL promised to work with the community and not around it like MLG has. Here's to hoping it works.
Also, to chime in on the discussion, I guess fighters can be considered a good -gateway to "esports"- for the average crowd, due to them being games of perfect information (no fog of war, etc), but this is extremely paradoxical to the reality that FPS games have a far bigger playerbase and audience than fighters. I guess the modern FPS crowd are more concerned about simply playing their games instead of making a tournament industry like SC2 and Mobas, which is not necessarily a bad thing mind you. Like, TF2 has a giant player-base, yet I'm sure 99% of TF2 players don't know a single thing about "competitive TF2".
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On February 13 2013 09:06 Maxyim wrote:
FPS as a watchable e-sport? Not a chance. Congrats on your ability to aim with a mouse, but it's just not that exciting to watch.
For you, perhaps. I found Halo 2 and 3 very enjoyable to watch, as did a lot of people. I find Halo 4 and Black Ops 2 however insufferable to watch. Perhaps it is the quality of the game rather than the quality of the players.
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I think the FPS genre has a ton of potential to be grown as an eSport, but all of them are mainly limited by how hard it is to watch. I remember watching Halo 2 and CS:S highlight videos, which were great. The biggest problem is that it is really hard to spectate live matches.
If you go from an overhead view like how SC2 or LoL does it, its not really that fun to watch because it's much harder to distinguish any of the players skills, which is the thing that people enjoy watching. I think the easiest comparison would be kind of like watching the boxscore for a traditional sport. Yeah, its great for being able to see how the game is progressing, but its not really fun at all.
On the other hand, if they do first person view, the opposite problem exists. While its easy to see the individual players skill, you can't really grasp whats going on overall. Jumping around between several players doesn't help that much either as you have to actually know a lot to begin with to be able to follow at all (i.e. who the players are, what each of them do.etc).
A possible solution would be to have replays and just cast those. This way it would be easy to figure out who to spectate beforehand and ensure that nothing important is missed. However, I don't think a lot of people like watching replays and it wouldn't be possible to do live events this way.
If someone can develop some other way for people to spectate, the FPS genre could easily compete with SC2 and LoL. Until they do, the entire genre will remain as games which are fun to play but hard to watch.
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@Ario: Black Ops 2 (yeah, of all games...) actually does a good attempt at solving those issues. A Black Ops 2 stream shows a minimap with player positions on the right side, close by is a scoreboard, and taking up most of the stream's video is the actual game itself in first person view. This type of view should've been in every competitive FPS a long time ago.
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On February 13 2013 09:06 Maxyim wrote:
FPS as a watchable e-sport? Not a chance. Congrats on your ability to aim with a mouse, but it's just not that exciting to watch.
Watch some Quake Live. That is some exciting stuff, really fast paced and easy to follow with good commentators and power up timers.
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EPT
