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Aristocratic is good in a vacuum but several ideas are pretty worthless, and its major positives are outweighed by the other groups. It is less of a straight military idea group and more econ/diplo focused. +1 diplomat is much more useful in SP where you are improving relations with AIs, annexing fed vassals, etc, and less useful for MP where relations dont really matter. -20% WE reduction cost is nearly worthless. +Core creation cost useful in keeping people from stealing your lands, but doesnt exactly make you stronger in wars, and people could still weaken you if they so choose by making you release stuff or cancel vassals. -Tech cost is ok, but everyone will be keeping up in tech if you are in western tech group anyways. Definitely more useful if you are playing an eastern country or a horde and can stack cav bonuses to wreck early game. +1 leader w/o upkeep is ok I guess but is more of an economic bonus in that it saves mil points.
So actually useful in combat you get +10% cav CA, +1 leader shock, +25% manpower. Offensive gets +1 leader shock, +1 leader fire, +20% siege, +20% force limit, +5% discipline, and forced march, giving you a larger, better army which sieges faster and can force march compared to if you take aristocratic. Quantity obv gets massive bonuses to army size and lets you have a MASSIVE advantage early game if taken 1st (as seen in my current mp game where france took it 1st).
On top of that, aristocratic's policies are all pretty much garbage in comparison to the ones unlocked by quality/quantity/offensive. The only good looking one is +20% cav CA, cept you also need espionage for that which is itself suboptimal to take, especially early on.
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-10% tech is pretty good since it frees up military points which you can use for buildings and to invest in military ideas without falling behind in tech.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
+Core creation cost useful in keeping people from stealing your lands, but doesnt exactly make you stronger in wars, and people could still weaken you if they so choose by making you release stuff or cancel vassals.
hmmm...
imagine a Bohemia that full culture shifts all provinces (I mean, not like it needs the diplo anyways), since German doesn't share a culture group with Czech, you can't actually release Germanic countries that have had their cores culture shifted.
couple this with diplomatic defense act for comedy. 250% core cost pretty rude.
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Finally did it. That 208% double penetration into Balkans + Italy was well worth once all the rebels died.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OmJyBrK.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7heoMoQ.png)
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On January 29 2015 06:19 DrunkenOne wrote:
Aristocratic is good in a vacuum but several ideas are pretty worthless, and its major positives are outweighed by the other groups. It is less of a straight military idea group and more econ/diplo focused. +1 diplomat is much more useful in SP where you are improving relations with AIs, annexing fed vassals, etc, and less useful for MP where relations dont really matter. -20% WE reduction cost is nearly worthless. +Core creation cost useful in keeping people from stealing your lands, but doesnt exactly make you stronger in wars, and people could still weaken you if they so choose by making you release stuff or cancel vassals. -Tech cost is ok, but everyone will be keeping up in tech if you are in western tech group anyways. Definitely more useful if you are playing an eastern country or a horde and can stack cav bonuses to wreck early game. +1 leader w/o upkeep is ok I guess but is more of an economic bonus in that it saves mil points.
So actually useful in combat you get +10% cav CA, +1 leader shock, +25% manpower. Offensive gets +1 leader shock, +1 leader fire, +20% siege, +20% force limit, +5% discipline, and forced march, giving you a larger, better army which sieges faster and can force march compared to if you take aristocratic. Quantity obv gets massive bonuses to army size and lets you have a MASSIVE advantage early game if taken 1st (as seen in my current mp game where france took it 1st).
On top of that, aristocratic's policies are all pretty much garbage in comparison to the ones unlocked by quality/quantity/offensive. The only good looking one is +20% cav CA, cept you also need espionage for that which is itself suboptimal to take, especially early on.
I think the idea with aristocratic is that the first idea allows you to go for more cav (something most armies are lacking at the start but really want) while making them stronger and still giving some nice boni later on. Actually lots of ideas in Aristocratic are really good and the military is frontloaded, which gives you a lot boom for the buck in a time where you want your military tech up to date.
Comparison to military ideas:
Offensive:
I'd argue that aside from forced march aristocratic 4 is better than the entire offensive during the first 100 years. You trade 25%manpower for 20% siege (clear win for aristocratic) and 10 cav combat which is more important during that time than inf combat for 5 discipline (about even i'd say).
Force Limit does next to nothing, leader fire does next to nothing before military tech 8 and very little until military tech 14, prestige from battles does next to nothing, recruitment time does nothing. So you trade 1200 military points for force march and a better lategame army. Aristocratic gives you +1 diplomat, -10 tech cost and a leader without upkeep for that. I'd also take reduced "reduce war exhaustion cost" over things like 20% force limit any day.
Quantity
The first Quantity bonus is really strong and the second is nice. But after that comes pretty much nothing, the rest are eco-boosts in one way or the other and most of them are rather minor (they still add up though). So you trade your national ideas for a super strong power boost at the beginning. I'd argue that 4 techs in on aristocratic you draw about even with quantity 2 and have better boni to come. But if you want power and want it now and dont have that much military power to spare Quantity is clearly better.
The offset is that around Military tech 16 Aristocratic becomes rather weak as a military idea and around 24 only one of your three military boni are really worth much. By 24 pretty much every military Idea (except for naval) is stronger than Aristocratic. But by 6 and 4 ideas in I'd argue it's the other way round, even more so if you arent western but f.e. ottomans.
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So I was looking at some of the presets they have in extended timeline, and I actually like the look of the 1066 start:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/M9gOZNZ.png)
All the European powers are small, there's a decent African presence but smaller than Tunis, and the hordes are small and manageable. As far as it goes, it's a blank canvas and anyone can get big. Franconia is emperor, Austria isn't close to being elected, and everyone's looking local at this point.
I shall be playing as Aachen. (The other reason I went with pre-1200 to dodge the Mongols instead of 1300s like I usually do, is to avoid having fucking France breathing down my neck).
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nf2TxRy.png)
somewhere Putin weeps
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If a VOD of the last livestream comes up, you gotta watch it. It was really funny!
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Finally finished with the Livonian game.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Tkl3i7D.png)
Europe tricked me into thinking protestant was going to have a firm standing reformed would of been far more beneficial in hindsight protestant ended up being about worthless.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1iWcbwo.png)
Elite Ideas
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1jWhnMB.png)
Robbed by time for the brandenburg throne.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tXPPxEX.png)
I've never been more proud of how europe dealt with scumbag france I had no hand at all in their demise aside from crushing an early revolutionary france where all i did was revert them as quickly as possible and peace out because their colonies were crushing mine.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MnqaLLh.png)
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Is that Epirus in Greece? I assume it's your vassal or you released them?
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Yeah it is Epirus i have no idea how they formed not my doing probably just a rebels since i cut the ottomans land path off and crushed their navy 3-4 times over about 100 years. I had just begun feeding ottoman lands to the knights but since you have to core a province then sell it to them because of culture nonsense they weren't going to gain anything till the truce ended in like 1824 
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On January 29 2015 14:26 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:So I was looking at some of the presets they have in extended timeline, and I actually like the look of the 1066 start: All the European powers are small, there's a decent African presence but smaller than Tunis, and the hordes are small and manageable. As far as it goes, it's a blank canvas and anyone can get big. Franconia is emperor, Austria isn't close to being elected, and everyone's looking local at this point. I shall be playing as Aachen. (The other reason I went with pre-1200 to dodge the Mongols instead of 1300s like I usually do, is to avoid having fucking France breathing down my neck).
Not to sure, Byzantium has Ottoman tax income in a time where other powers are a quarter of what they later are. So in comparison they are probably much stronger than France is at 1444 simply bc everyone else is so much weaker than them.
Might be that their diplo situation is really bad though, I mean they collapse for a reason.
@El Dorado:
Not sure about the idea part of the custom nation thing, there'll be just a way to go in 90% of the situations (f.e. , -core creation cost, -aggressive expansion, +manpower, +missionary strenght, + discipline, +inf/cav combat, +morale and two out of Diplomat, army tradition, -revolt risk, artillery combat).
So yeah just go Brandenburg on a bigger base tax at a position of your choice with the two national Idea that Prussia is missing, missionary strength and core creation. Sounds possibly easier than France. HRE Hungary superpower incoming.
Did they say anything about National Events? Cause most great powers in EU are great because they get cheap great events.
@[UoN]Sentinel Is your Byzantium into Rome playthrough a mod? Or did they implement it at 1.8 or 1.9?
Those Roman Ideas btw, holy shit
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On January 30 2015 12:08 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 14:26 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:So I was looking at some of the presets they have in extended timeline, and I actually like the look of the 1066 start: All the European powers are small, there's a decent African presence but smaller than Tunis, and the hordes are small and manageable. As far as it goes, it's a blank canvas and anyone can get big. Franconia is emperor, Austria isn't close to being elected, and everyone's looking local at this point. I shall be playing as Aachen. (The other reason I went with pre-1200 to dodge the Mongols instead of 1300s like I usually do, is to avoid having fucking France breathing down my neck). Not to sure, Byzantium has Ottoman tax income in a time where other powers are a quarter of what they later are. So in comparison they are probably much stronger than France is at 1444 simply bc everyone else is so much weaker than them. Might be that their diplo situation is really bad though, I mean they collapse for a reason. @El Dorado: Not sure about the idea part of the custom nation thing, there'll be just a way to go in 90% of the situations (f.e. , -core creation cost, -aggressive expansion, +manpower, +missionary strenght, + discipline, +inf/cav combat, +morale and two out of Diplomat, army tradition, -revolt risk, artillery combat). So yeah just go Brandenburg on a bigger base tax at a position of your choice with the two national Idea that Prussia is missing, missionary strength and core creation. Sounds possibly easier than France. HRE Hungary superpower incoming. Did they say anything about National Events? Cause most great powers in EU are great because they get cheap great events. @[UoN]Sentinel Is your Byzantium into Rome playthrough a mod? Or did they implement it at 1.8 or 1.9? Those Roman Ideas btw, holy shit
I know that the ET mod makes Rome (as in original Roman empire) collapse somewhere around the time it actually fell via stability drops and other time-based nerfs. AI Rome is meant to disintegrate although it's not crippling to the point a human player couldn't hold it together, especially with preparation. Byzantium might work the same way, although only time will tell. I remember I ran a game starting around 1240, and is now the reason I avoid the 1200 starts like the plague, because the Mongol Empire just kept expanding and by 1350 I figured it wasn't going anywhere since there was no sign of it falling into disrepair, and it would be a while before the west got the tech bonuses needed to go against it. So we'll see.
France turned out to be pretty deceptive. They're pushing their northern border to me, so I might stop aggroing all over Westphalia to get some sort of alliance or coalition against them. I'm avoiding the sea for now, but I wouldn't mind a French port or two where Emperor Franconia can't demand I return it to whoever else I'm invading at the time.
Byzantium into Rome is part of Extended Timeline mod (I also have the national decisions from original Rome, such as splitting half my land into the Western Roman Empire and picking which of the two I want to play as, and presumably to form it again and continue the cycle). However I believe you can form Rome from Byzantium in CK2 and import it into an EU4 game.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FzXd80q.png)
what fun
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On January 30 2015 13:23 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 12:08 Blackfeather wrote:On January 29 2015 14:26 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:So I was looking at some of the presets they have in extended timeline, and I actually like the look of the 1066 start: All the European powers are small, there's a decent African presence but smaller than Tunis, and the hordes are small and manageable. As far as it goes, it's a blank canvas and anyone can get big. Franconia is emperor, Austria isn't close to being elected, and everyone's looking local at this point. I shall be playing as Aachen. (The other reason I went with pre-1200 to dodge the Mongols instead of 1300s like I usually do, is to avoid having fucking France breathing down my neck). Not to sure, Byzantium has Ottoman tax income in a time where other powers are a quarter of what they later are. So in comparison they are probably much stronger than France is at 1444 simply bc everyone else is so much weaker than them. Might be that their diplo situation is really bad though, I mean they collapse for a reason. @El Dorado: Not sure about the idea part of the custom nation thing, there'll be just a way to go in 90% of the situations (f.e. , -core creation cost, -aggressive expansion, +manpower, +missionary strenght, + discipline, +inf/cav combat, +morale and two out of Diplomat, army tradition, -revolt risk, artillery combat). So yeah just go Brandenburg on a bigger base tax at a position of your choice with the two national Idea that Prussia is missing, missionary strength and core creation. Sounds possibly easier than France. HRE Hungary superpower incoming. Did they say anything about National Events? Cause most great powers in EU are great because they get cheap great events. @[UoN]Sentinel Is your Byzantium into Rome playthrough a mod? Or did they implement it at 1.8 or 1.9? Those Roman Ideas btw, holy shit I know that the ET mod makes Rome (as in original Roman empire) collapse somewhere around the time it actually fell via stability drops and other time-based nerfs. AI Rome is meant to disintegrate although it's not crippling to the point a human player couldn't hold it together, especially with preparation. Byzantium might work the same way, although only time will tell. I remember I ran a game starting around 1240, and is now the reason I avoid the 1200 starts like the plague, because the Mongol Empire just kept expanding and by 1350 I figured it wasn't going anywhere since there was no sign of it falling into disrepair, and it would be a while before the west got the tech bonuses needed to go against it. So we'll see. France turned out to be pretty deceptive. They're pushing their northern border to me, so I might stop aggroing all over Westphalia to get some sort of alliance or coalition against them. I'm avoiding the sea for now, but I wouldn't mind a French port or two where Emperor Franconia can't demand I return it to whoever else I'm invading at the time. Byzantium into Rome is part of Extended Timeline mod (I also have the national decisions from original Rome, such as splitting half my land into the Western Roman Empire and picking which of the two I want to play as, and presumably to form it again and continue the cycle). However I believe you can form Rome from Byzantium in CK2 and import it into an EU4 game.
Sounds cool. Yeah if I got the wiki right you can extend the original roman Empire from CK2 in your EU file. But i dont have the DLC and havent really tried ck2 yet, so I was interested if they patched that into the game.
Cant play extended Timeline, no 64 bit system >.<
Doing a Sweden run with pretty much 0 allies. I started about 4 wars in the game and so far I had a time of peace of less than a year during my first 130 years. Muscovy, Lithuenia, Denmark with GB, Poland and even Spain seem to have nothing better to do than declare war on me all the time. I still lost only a single one with no harm done but yeah.
Also France somehow totally collapsed (and I even saved them once from Castille). It's about 1570 now and France has only two provinces left, with a giant Spain (which hates me) and an even bigger Burgundy (which doesnt like me either) right next to them.
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On January 30 2015 17:40 419 wrote:what fun
I hope you have good allies or get lucky in those mountains. If only I had a dollar for every great run that gets ruined by an unexpected war with france. I started working on this one tonight on my third attempt now first 2 went poorly.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LxrZZTD.png)
Can't form it yet because of my ugly 1/2/1 30 something ruler going to wait till he dies since you keep the ruler.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q8id9cv.png)
sieging Russia to 84% warscore in a claim throne war is not fun.
I got punitive war'd during that claim war by Ottomans + bunch of Italians + Mamluks, didn't fight a single battle and my allies practically won the war for me.
Now I have to blob big before my PU slaves realize they can beat me quite easily
Almost scored another PU over Palatinate but their King didn't die fast enough :/ Poland / Commonwealth is on track for PU after 1600s, Nasrid kings are winning the elections quite consistently.
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Holy shit that could become the biggest Granada yet.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tmFiQkL.png)
