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On January 12 2014 10:33 NukeD wrote:Does anyone really care about this? Same thing they said about Star Wars: Old Republic. "Fully voiced story driven" MMORPG. Are developers really that much out of touch with what people want to play? If the selling point of your game is fully voiced game dialogues which you spent half of your budget on then you need to quitt your job really.
it's not only fully voiced, I'm pretty sure they have john cleese doing the voice of a minor character in the intro section.. that's just absurd, and a complete waste of money. The quest wasn't even interesting and the writing wasn't good enough to warrant getting triple-A talent to read it.They're basically just throwing money away with this product, which is heartbreaking to see.
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As someone new to TES games I thought the skill and level system was pretty cool with the amount of choices you had. The graphics are wonderful and the voice acting was well done, but the core of the game including movement and combat just wasn't very fun.
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Played a couple hours of PvP and have been leveling strictly off it. You get items as rewards periodically but the gold income is really pathetic compared to the PvE. You need horses (which cost gold) or else your running your ass off most of the time in the huge PvP map. Shouldn't be a problem in full but in the 2 days we get it's a bit of a luxury item. Captured some castles and resource nodes. Helped capture an Elder scroll. Not bad but I don't know how long it would last. The skill system in the game is pretty nice and versatile but the combat mechanics just seem to have a low skill cap. Oh well, at least they tried. Will probably play a bit more later but can't for now as our whole PvP area got disconnected and we can't log in again.
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On January 12 2014 10:36 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 10:33 NukeD wrote:On January 12 2014 10:15 greggy wrote:
this is a completely voiced-over MMO Does anyone really care about this? Same thing they said about Star Wars: Old Republic. "Fully voiced story driven" MMORPG. Are developers really that much out of touch with what people want to play? If the selling point of your game is fully voiced game dialogues which you spent half of your budget on then you need to quitt your job really. Its an important feature for a single player RPG. For an MMO its a cost sink and a restriction on future content. I often feel to much time is spend on the shiny, graphics/voice-over/ect, and not enough time on just making sure the game feels and reacts well. I can live within the first but no game will succeed without the second.
It's not an important feature for a single player rpg itself. It's just important because too many people are lazy and don't want to read. It's like watching movies instead of reading books. The books will probably have better story because they aren't shortened and leave much more room for imagination. To some degree this applies to RPGs as well. Hell, some of the best stories in cRPGs ever had very little voice over. Like Planescape:Torment that only had some voice overs for major plot characters.
Voice overs are one of those features that take high amounts of money and production time and take away from other much more important parts of the game. That's the reason todays games feel so empty. Full of shiny graphics, voice overs, cgi's and fanciness. But when it comes to writing and gameplay they fall flat.
I agree though that MMO's have another special problem with them.
On January 12 2014 10:48 FromShouri wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 10:36 Gorsameth wrote:On January 12 2014 10:33 NukeD wrote:On January 12 2014 10:15 greggy wrote:
this is a completely voiced-over MMO Does anyone really care about this? Same thing they said about Star Wars: Old Republic. "Fully voiced story driven" MMORPG. Are developers really that much out of touch with what people want to play? If the selling point of your game is fully voiced game dialogues which you spent half of your budget on then you need to quitt your job really. Its an important feature for a single player RPG. For an MMO its a cost sink and a restriction on future content. I often feel to much time is spend on the shiny, graphics/voice-over/ect, and not enough time on just making sure the game feels and reacts well. I can live within the first but no game will succeed without the second. I can whole heartedly agree about the voice over being a huge time sink. It was suppose to be sw:tors bread and butter but theyve seemingly abandoned it even with their first expansion, lets see how long teso keeps the concept. Also to people who say "lol pvp from teso" did you not watch any e3/convention footage? PvP is suppose to be a huge selling point. Not too mention all the other hype where they said their questing system is not the same generic crap(which it is). The only thing imo this game has going for itself right now is how smooth the game can be even with so many people in one area. I zoned into the tavern after leaving the starting area and the place was literally packed so full we were standing on each other yet everything was so non laggy and smooth. That was literally the only positive i took away from playing the beta. Game looks uninspired but its at least optimized very well for beta/release.
You will learn to not listen to hype and dev speak anymore. Diablo 3 and Guild Wars 2 teched me the hard way. It's really painfull if 99,9% of what gets promised won't be there in the end. Just marketing marketing marketing. Hypehypehype to get as much buyers for your shitty product as possible. The thing why I thought that Zenimax would just cash-out the ESO-franchise from the very beginning was that their PR-blabla was nearly the same as for GW2. Same picking and arrangement of words, examples etc. I thought the PR-guys from anet just went over to Zenimax...
So they will tell a whole bunch of crap if it appeals to another potential buying-crowd. The more, the better. For this specific example I can't believe anyone believes in the hype. I mean, look at the ESO combat. Is that mean to be for PvP? No. The combat always was the weakest part of ESO and only BARELY served it's purpose for single player PvE. But for PvP? Hell, the original mario combat would be more exciting for pvp.
And as you speak of quests: Anet did the same. blablabla we don't want players to grind to get to the fun, no boring repetetive quests, the world should feel alive. What do we have now? The worst of the worst mmo type quests in form of hearts, copy&pasted tasks, the same events over and over with no interesting backround respawning every 10 minutes. It's horrible. And the most important thing to know your journey to ignore dev speak is: You are always wrong. If you tell people before that this just dev speak you shall wait and see because you can't know. You shall trust those dev's because they know what they are doing. And when it turns out shit in the end and you complain about the dev's being liar's you will be told that was just dev speak to hype for marketing and you shouldn't take everything for granted.
Really, the whole gaming industry including a good chunk of the community is very sad to live with right now. But you see what you get if money gets too important.
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On January 12 2014 10:55 Yoav wrote:
What exactly is it that people mean when they say the combat sucks?
I get that the input lag needs to be fixed, but it's a stress-test, for God's sake. And I've played a few MMOs. Most of them have really dull, boring, rotation-based bullshit combat systems where you feel like you're playing the cooldown game rather than anything else.
The perfect RPG would be dark souls combat with Elder Scrolls Lore. Don't get me wrong, I think this game should have been Elder Scrolls Co-Op, but the combat isn't bad, not compared to the BS combat we've seen too much of in WOW and clones.
Never mind that only a handful of skills are available in the beta, and your content is basically just the tutorial. Of course it's linear guys, its a tutorial section.
For my melee character there was utterly no reaction to my attacks. No hit animation, no hit sound that i heard nothing. There is a health bar that moves a little as the only indication that i even hit. Played a tiny bit with a mage staff today and it feels a little better but melee combat was horrible. Again no it was not lag nor input delay. Just a total lack of response to my hits.
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On January 12 2014 10:57 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 10:33 NukeD wrote:On January 12 2014 10:15 greggy wrote:
this is a completely voiced-over MMO Does anyone really care about this? Same thing they said about Star Wars: Old Republic. "Fully voiced story driven" MMORPG. Are developers really that much out of touch with what people want to play? If the selling point of your game is fully voiced game dialogues which you spent half of your budget on then you need to quitt your job really. it's not only fully voiced, I'm pretty sure they have john cleese doing the voice of a minor character in the intro section.. that's just absurd, and a complete waste of money. The quest wasn't even interesting and the writing wasn't good enough to warrant getting triple-A talent to read it.They're basically just throwing money away with this product, which is heartbreaking to see.
This sounds like how the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi is being run. Lets build a road here. Oh, lets rip it up and rebuild this road 10 times now so we can inflate the costs. By the way, in order to get this contract Mr. CEO of engineering company, you need to pay me 20% kickbacks, yup. Except, this time its, "lets blow money on this game that we can budget under 'marketing'".
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On January 12 2014 11:27 Miragee wrote:
And as you speak of quests: Anet did the same. blablabla we don't want players to grind to get to the fun, no boring repetetive quests, the world should feel alive. What do we have now? The worst of the worst mmo type quests in form of hearts, copy&pasted tasks, the same events over and over with no interesting backround respawning every 10 minutes. It's horrible. And the most important thing to know your journey to ignore dev speak is: You are always wrong. If you tell people before that this just dev speak you shall wait and see because you can't know. You shall trust those dev's because they know what they are doing. And when it turns out shit in the end and you complain about the dev's being liar's you will be told that was just dev speak to hype for marketing and you shouldn't take everything for granted.
Really, the whole gaming industry including a good chunk of the community is very sad to live with right now. But you see what you get if money gets too important.
Nah, the main problem here is that people have this weird relationship to game companies.
It is quite easy to make sure that companies actually produce good games: Wait to buy it until you are sure it is actually good. Don't preorder stuff. Don't buy stuff day 1. Don't believe reviews that get published day 1. Wait for a week, until the honest opinions get out. If everyone does that, companies will focus more on good games. If people continue to buy stuff based only on hype, then of course the companies focus on hype over game.
Game companies don't owe you anything. You don't owe game companies anything. Buy games if they are good. And "good" is wholly subjective here. Buy games that you enjoy, and make sure that the games you buy are those you will probably enjoy before you buy them.
There is nothing wrong with waiting and seeing. Both damning and praising a game you have not played yet is ridiculous. You don't lose anything if you wait until the game is released. It also makes you immune to devs being liars, because you can get your information from other, less biased sources. Basing your decision to buy something only on what the people who want to sell it to you tell you is utterly insane. As a consumer, it is your job to make sure that what you get is actually what you want. Sure, there are laws, but unless there is a really blunt lie somewhere there is not a lot you can do, since stuff can be interpreted differently. Also noone really wants a lawsuit against a big corporation, so just make sure that you get what you want beforehand, and save yourself the trouble.
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To me this game was insanely boring and bad. However, a friend of mine, who has been an Elder Scrolls fan since forever, really enjoys the story. So maybe, if you are only into reading the story, the game can be entertaining. He acknowledges all the gameplay flaws though.
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On January 12 2014 10:55 Yoav wrote:
The perfect RPG would be dark souls combat with Elder Scrolls Lore. .
Was just going to post this. I honestly have a hard time playing RPGs ever since I played dark souls. Its combat system is nothing short of genius.
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On January 12 2014 10:55 Yoav wrote:
What exactly is it that people mean when they say the combat sucks?
I get that the input lag needs to be fixed, but it's a stress-test, for God's sake. And I've played a few MMOs. Most of them have really dull, boring, rotation-based bullshit combat systems where you feel like you're playing the cooldown game rather than anything else.
The perfect RPG would be dark souls combat with Elder Scrolls Lore. Don't get me wrong, I think this game should have been Elder Scrolls Co-Op, but the combat isn't bad, not compared to the BS combat we've seen too much of in WOW and clones.
Never mind that only a handful of skills are available in the beta, and your content is basically just the tutorial. Of course it's linear guys, its a tutorial section.
I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. You are right, an elder scrolls with dark souls combat could potentially be the best RPG ever, but just because a game doesn't use rotations doesn't mean it has better combat than WoW. WoW has the best combat of any MMORPG, without a doubt. The whole point of guild wars was to make more interesting combat than WoW, and they failed miserably, but it was still a FAR better attempt than this ESO piece of junk.
Following a rotation might not be the most fun thing in the world, but at least in WoWs combat you're doing something every second, you're evaluating as you go what skill to use, you react to procs and changing situations. There's a massive difference in dps between a good PvE DPS and a bad PvE DPS. This is fun combat. Spamming "sword swing" and watch a sword swing by in an FPS view, with a HP bar slowly going down is not fun combat.
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The cynicism in this thread is both amusing and somewhat disheartening. I don't know what you people expected - the second coming of Christ or something? Even on the forums the first thing in the FAQ thread is: don't consider this game to be TES 6. And don't consider it to be wow 2.0. If you look at the game in a vacuum it's not terrible - not 100/100 but not "faith in humanity = lost" inducing either.
Think of it this way - what can you spend money when you're a dev? Assuming they can't cut out the combat, and I think everyone agrees their engine is great, it's going to be about the small things. There's not that much you can do storywise in an mmo so they buffed it up with some voice acting (which I largely skipped, but it's still a nice touch). I can bet you anything though that if it wasn't they'd be in a Katrina sized shitstorm. Tor made sure of that.
They should definitely blow some cash on infrastructure, the load times into small areas is fucking stupid.
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On January 12 2014 18:50 greggy wrote:
The cynicism in this thread is both amusing and somewhat disheartening. I don't know what you people expected - the second coming of Christ or something? Even on the forums the first thing in the FAQ thread is: don't consider this game to be TES 6. And don't consider it to be wow 2.0. If you look at the game in a vacuum it's not terrible - not 100/100 but not "faith in humanity = lost" inducing either.
Think of it this way - what can you spend money when you're a dev? Assuming they can't cut out the combat, and I think everyone agrees their engine is great, it's going to be about the small things. There's not that much you can do storywise in an mmo so they buffed it up with some voice acting (which I largely skipped, but it's still a nice touch). I can bet you anything though that if it wasn't they'd be in a Katrina sized shitstorm. Tor made sure of that.
They should definitely blow some cash on infrastructure, the load times into small areas is fucking stupid.
The problem is not that this isn't what people expected. The problem is it is exactly what the majority of people who have played any TES game thought would happen. I think most people are very sad that ZeniMax and Bethesda blew money on something their core fanbase never wanted.
The things TES games did great DO NOT translate to an MMO.
The disappointment is more less confirmation of what most thought going into the beta.
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On January 12 2014 18:50 greggy wrote:
The cynicism in this thread is both amusing and somewhat disheartening. I don't know what you people expected - the second coming of Christ or something? Even on the forums the first thing in the FAQ thread is: don't consider this game to be TES 6. And don't consider it to be wow 2.0. If you look at the game in a vacuum it's not terrible - not 100/100 but not "faith in humanity = lost" inducing either.
Except you know they are asking people for money.
Im not going to look at any game in a vacuum when it is competing with a dozen other games for my money.
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On January 12 2014 18:32 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 10:55 Yoav wrote:
What exactly is it that people mean when they say the combat sucks?
I get that the input lag needs to be fixed, but it's a stress-test, for God's sake. And I've played a few MMOs. Most of them have really dull, boring, rotation-based bullshit combat systems where you feel like you're playing the cooldown game rather than anything else.
The perfect RPG would be dark souls combat with Elder Scrolls Lore. Don't get me wrong, I think this game should have been Elder Scrolls Co-Op, but the combat isn't bad, not compared to the BS combat we've seen too much of in WOW and clones.
Never mind that only a handful of skills are available in the beta, and your content is basically just the tutorial. Of course it's linear guys, its a tutorial section. I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. You are right, an elder scrolls with dark souls combat could potentially be the best RPG ever, but just because a game doesn't use rotations doesn't mean it has better combat than WoW. WoW has the best combat of any MMORPG, without a doubt. The whole point of guild wars was to make more interesting combat than WoW, and they failed miserably, but it was still a FAR better attempt than this ESO piece of junk. Following a rotation might not be the most fun thing in the world, but at least in WoWs combat you're doing something every second, you're evaluating as you go what skill to use, you react to procs and changing situations. There's a massive difference in dps between a good PvE DPS and a bad PvE DPS. This is fun combat. Spamming "sword swing" and watch a sword swing by in an FPS view, with a HP bar slowly going down is not fun combat.
Guild wars has far far far superior combat to WoW. Guild wars 2 on the other hand.
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On January 12 2014 18:23 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 10:55 Yoav wrote:
The perfect RPG would be dark souls combat with Elder Scrolls Lore. . Was just going to post this. I honestly have a hard time playing RPGs ever since I played dark souls. Its combat system is nothing short of genius.
That game could only ever sell to a subset of Dark Souls player and a subset of TES / general RPG players.
That style of combat is fine in a game that is about combat. Dark Souls is made to do one thing, and one thing only, and that justifies giving that one thing a lot of depth. Giving combat that much depth in a different game would only deliver all the frustration and none of the satisfaction it had in the original.
There are plenty of Skyrim mods that attempt to do the same thing, and in a lot of them combat looks really cool, fun and challenging for the first 10 minutes. But then after a brief honeymoon, you realize that having to pull deliberate tactics and precise timings to kill your 15th Wolf somewhere in the wilderness is nothing short of a hassle that wrecks the flow of the game and takes you out of character.
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On January 12 2014 10:55 Yoav wrote:
with Elder Scrolls Lore.
Then i guess AtlanTES never had a chance to begin with, considering that it has butchered any TES lore it could.
It's a mediocre MMORPG with a poorly done TES paint job.
Even Todd Howard is now saying that this game isn't canon and has nothing to do with the actual TES lore, lmao.
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What annoyes med about this game right now is the lack of world map. It doesn't feel like an elder scrolls game where you get a huge map and told "go anywhere you like!". Its more like corridor to corridor. Somewhat big corridors, sure, but you're stuck in small zones all the while. I honestly don't even know where I am right now with my character. Somewhere in Skyrim I think..?
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On January 12 2014 21:02 Omnishroud wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 18:32 Tobberoth wrote:On January 12 2014 10:55 Yoav wrote:
What exactly is it that people mean when they say the combat sucks?
I get that the input lag needs to be fixed, but it's a stress-test, for God's sake. And I've played a few MMOs. Most of them have really dull, boring, rotation-based bullshit combat systems where you feel like you're playing the cooldown game rather than anything else.
The perfect RPG would be dark souls combat with Elder Scrolls Lore. Don't get me wrong, I think this game should have been Elder Scrolls Co-Op, but the combat isn't bad, not compared to the BS combat we've seen too much of in WOW and clones.
Never mind that only a handful of skills are available in the beta, and your content is basically just the tutorial. Of course it's linear guys, its a tutorial section. I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. You are right, an elder scrolls with dark souls combat could potentially be the best RPG ever, but just because a game doesn't use rotations doesn't mean it has better combat than WoW. WoW has the best combat of any MMORPG, without a doubt. The whole point of guild wars was to make more interesting combat than WoW, and they failed miserably, but it was still a FAR better attempt than this ESO piece of junk. Following a rotation might not be the most fun thing in the world, but at least in WoWs combat you're doing something every second, you're evaluating as you go what skill to use, you react to procs and changing situations. There's a massive difference in dps between a good PvE DPS and a bad PvE DPS. This is fun combat. Spamming "sword swing" and watch a sword swing by in an FPS view, with a HP bar slowly going down is not fun combat. Guild wars has far far far superior combat to WoW. Guild wars 2 on the other hand.
Well, I was talking about GW2, I have not played GW1 myself, but if I remember correctly, it's actually quite similar to WoW in its setup.
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On January 12 2014 18:50 greggy wrote:
The cynicism in this thread is both amusing and somewhat disheartening. I don't know what you people expected - the second coming of Christ or something? Even on the forums the first thing in the FAQ thread is: don't consider this game to be TES 6. And don't consider it to be wow 2.0. If you look at the game in a vacuum it's not terrible - not 100/100 but not "faith in humanity = lost" inducing either.
Think of it this way - what can you spend money when you're a dev? Assuming they can't cut out the combat, and I think everyone agrees their engine is great, it's going to be about the small things. There's not that much you can do storywise in an mmo so they buffed it up with some voice acting (which I largely skipped, but it's still a nice touch). I can bet you anything though that if it wasn't they'd be in a Katrina sized shitstorm. Tor made sure of that.
They should definitely blow some cash on infrastructure, the load times into small areas is fucking stupid.
it doesn't matter what a FAQ on a forum says.. if it's called Elder Scrolls, make a fucking Elder Scrolls game. A brand carries with it certain expectations.
Basically, this game didn't need to be made, and shouldn't have been made. There are no redeeming qualities to it, except that it looks good for an MMO from certain angles. If you look at it "in a vacuum" and ignore the brand, it's just another generic MMO that won't be able to compete with wow, even when wow is in decline. Especially with its horrible pricing structure. This whole thing reeks of mismanagement.
Also, if they weren't able to make a true online TES game for whatever reason - creative, technical or otherwise - then again, the game shouldn't have been made.
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On January 12 2014 22:04 Excludos wrote:
What annoyes med about this game right now is the lack of world map. It doesn't feel like an elder scrolls game where you get a huge map and told "go anywhere you like!". Its more like corridor to corridor. Somewhat big corridors, sure, but you're stuck in small zones all the while. I honestly don't even know where I am right now with my character. Somewhere in Skyrim I think..?
its ok they will probably put in a load of teleporters
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EPT
