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On October 03 2013 22:25 Duka08 wrote:
The nostalgia in this thread is palpable. I'll be the first to tell anyone I miss the glory days of TBC and go on and on about the past, but I'm still playing the game casually and enjoying it for very different reasons.
I can't be arsed to spell out (again) why so many of the points people make are wrong (both in my opinion AND factually wrong for some), but it's almost always simply nostalgia goggles or a case of "I DON'T LIKE CHAAAANGE".
Saying that "there used to be many viable specs for each class pre-MoP but now there's only one" is a great way to ruin any argument you could possibly be trying to make.
May come across as hostile but it's just common sense. I've been in your shoes, I remember being mad about when WoW "went casual", and I got the fuck over it and started seeing all of the good that were buried in the changes.
Sad you can't boost your ego by flaunting your purps over the few people that might even bother to look at you in town? If you're such a skilled veteran how about doing some raids and blowing the baddies out of the water in whatever role you are. It's easy to tell who are the better players even when gear is the same. Or better yet, why don't you actually join a guild and do the harder progression content so that you can feel accomplished on a personal level. Nothing changed there, you just can't whip your dick out in the middle of Orgrimmar hoping everyone will see your giant shoulders you won last night and start ogling at them. RIP your ego.
Nice, you summed up exactly 0 of the points brought up.
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On October 03 2013 21:46 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 20:45 Oozo wrote:
About this wow being dead game subject.
I've played since vanilla... Have to fully agree that Panda's were huge mistake in direction this game has gone. Anything from that subject would not done right to the game. I literally quit game after first clear on mogushan vaults. All just cause I got really sick of bad lore and how encounters were designed.
They stopped innovating pve and took shortcuts (lfr/flex) and made them standard way of spoiling content to anyone trying to come back to game. normal raiding and specially heroic raiding was not affected that much... lucky those who actually have guild who does heroic raiding and gets to basically skip lfr fully.
Now that we are less than week away from next blizzcon and announcement of next expansion is near. I came back to wow week ago to level my hunter at max and gear him a bit so I can have good look what we are at the moment and how are things changed from launch to the end of expansion. Basically my biggest problems are the attitude of development towards players. All content is easily passed by new patches, There is zero effort to get raid ready. 3 days of gearing, I went from greens 430~ ilvl to 515 ilvl (today 530 threshold if no miracle happens). Its just too easy and only thing I can't get is those heroic pieces that I probably won't even have chance to even get. Even with these so called problems I had... it still can be fixed and that is what I hope from next expansion
The thing is, next expansion... they can't hit bottom more, unless its Pandaria expanded 2.0 and we get gutted. That would be last time I look at this game. If they manage to make "wow" subjected expansion, that would be saving grace. Even its flaws in game, we can make community better and kinda skip those flaws. Make guild that ignores lfr, don't require it from raiders. Ask more in /g /trade /lfg about groups to places. Its not dead way to communicate even if we have tools to get automatic entry on dungeon. We can change! (says Obama :D)
I guess your points are valid and i'd tend to agree that the casual can get the gear that most semi hardcore pve'rs can get with little challenge. Yet the heoric gear is a pretty far away for even the semi hardcore raider (3-4nights a week). I guess that could be addressed a bit more. The next expansion has been leaked on the internet if you want to go and find out information  I have already most of the changes.
Wee, seems like I got nothing to worry 
On October 03 2013 22:25 Duka08 wrote:
The nostalgia in this thread is palpable. I'll be the first to tell anyone I miss the glory days of TBC and go on and on about the past, but I'm still playing the game casually and enjoying it for very different reasons.
I can't be arsed to spell out (again) why so many of the points people make are wrong (both in my opinion AND factually wrong for some), but it's almost always simply nostalgia goggles or a case of "I DON'T LIKE CHAAAANGE".
Saying that "there used to be many viable specs for each class pre-MoP but now there's only one" is a great way to ruin any argument you could possibly be trying to make.
May come across as hostile but it's just common sense. I've been in your shoes, I remember being mad about when WoW "went casual", and I got the fuck over it and started seeing all of the good that were buried in the changes.
Sad you can't boost your ego by flaunting your purps over the few people that might even bother to look at you in town? If you're such a skilled veteran how about doing some raids and blowing the baddies out of the water in whatever role you are. It's easy to tell who are the better players even when gear is the same. Or better yet, why don't you actually join a guild and do the harder progression content so that you can feel accomplished on a personal level. Nothing changed there, you just can't whip your dick out in the middle of Orgrimmar hoping everyone will see your giant shoulders you won last night and start ogling at them. RIP your ego.
if you address me with ego boosting, you are barking wrong tree. Can't understand how you can be this hostile over me telling how easy its to catch up nowadays... jeez... even back in the days, doing prenerfed sunwell did not cause me to ego trip anywhere, it was a achievement fun one too, but nothing to go glory whoring around. And after wotlk, I didnt feel need to raid HC anymore and im nicely enjoying the "casual" side of game thanks for asking.
I didnt mention anything about tbc talents etc, so wont address those cause its not my thing to even argue. They made call, for good or bad, leaving it to that.
I was not mad at single point. I got bored by lore of pandaria... LORE, not game.
Please tone town your hostility and try to not over assume things others say. It will help you lot.
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On October 03 2013 21:46 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 20:45 Oozo wrote:
About this wow being dead game subject.
I've played since vanilla... Have to fully agree that Panda's were huge mistake in direction this game has gone. Anything from that subject would not done right to the game. I literally quit game after first clear on mogushan vaults. All just cause I got really sick of bad lore and how encounters were designed.
They stopped innovating pve and took shortcuts (lfr/flex) and made them standard way of spoiling content to anyone trying to come back to game. normal raiding and specially heroic raiding was not affected that much... lucky those who actually have guild who does heroic raiding and gets to basically skip lfr fully.
Now that we are less than week away from next blizzcon and announcement of next expansion is near. I came back to wow week ago to level my hunter at max and gear him a bit so I can have good look what we are at the moment and how are things changed from launch to the end of expansion. Basically my biggest problems are the attitude of development towards players. All content is easily passed by new patches, There is zero effort to get raid ready. 3 days of gearing, I went from greens 430~ ilvl to 515 ilvl (today 530 threshold if no miracle happens). Its just too easy and only thing I can't get is those heroic pieces that I probably won't even have chance to even get. Even with these so called problems I had... it still can be fixed and that is what I hope from next expansion
The thing is, next expansion... they can't hit bottom more, unless its Pandaria expanded 2.0 and we get gutted. That would be last time I look at this game. If they manage to make "wow" subjected expansion, that would be saving grace. Even its flaws in game, we can make community better and kinda skip those flaws. Make guild that ignores lfr, don't require it from raiders. Ask more in /g /trade /lfg about groups to places. Its not dead way to communicate even if we have tools to get automatic entry on dungeon. We can change! (says Obama :D)
I guess your points are valid and i'd tend to agree that the casual can get the gear that most semi hardcore pve'rs can get with little challenge. Yet the heoric gear is a pretty far away for even the semi hardcore raider (3-4nights a week). I guess that could be addressed a bit more. The next expansion has been leaked on the internet if you want to go and find out information I have already most of the changes.
? my guild is raiding 4 times a week (19 hours combined) and we have 6/14 hc right now and have cleared every previous hc content months before the next tier. Everyone complains how easy it is to get raid ready gear with LFR etc but at the same time how they cant raid heroic? Why not? There are guilds that raid even less and do heroics.
LFR is nice and fine, the items are useless for heroic raiders, even for catching up, the only exceptions being special trinkets and maybe set boni, but thats it, however LFR gives you a nice introduction to the encounter, so you get some experience with it before you try it on normal or hc. If you dont like it then dont join it? There are enough guilds you can join for real raiding.
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On October 03 2013 23:48 Pandemona wrote:Did you not like the trailers and such for the patches Oozo i thought they were super cool xD Especially the 5.4 trailer, looked super kewlll xD Might of been my childish nature though and i do like Panda's xD But nothing beats a blizzard cinematic these days Im yet to kill Garrosh so i have not seen that ending and im waiting to kill it personally before i see that cinematic
I like cinematics lot. Blizzard got insanely good animators doing them and they are doing fine job. Only problem was that patch 5.0 to 5.3 were kinda, not so rewarding in my opinion. 5.2 beign allmost exception.
Whole lore around mogu and pandas was kind of let down and if you compare it to some other "out of wow" lore scripts like Ulduar, its totallly different level. Its like having story arc in naruto thats basicly filler and that bugs me the most.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
Haha yeah, i don't follow the lore "to much" like you obviously do and the Panda's are of course farfetched. It does seem like they tailored the game down a bit on that side to accompany a different player market? Like Chinese players and females?
Next expansion however does look nice, TBC lore level nice :D
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Slowly but surely... I WILL reach level 55 and make my blood DK tank -_-
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Keep fighting the good fight bluelightz, you'll get there one day
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I think the general idea behind Burning Legion is more appealing than pretty much everything in Warcraft besides Old Gods/Titans.
But from a pure lore perspective, I think TBC is actually the worst expansion as it undermined more Warcraft lore (mainly from WC3/TFT) than any other expansion.
From the whole revamp of Draenei/Broken Ones/Eredar lore to the complete debauchery of the Illidari forces. The forced diplomatic situation between Shattrath forces and Illidari forces makes no sense and the entire expansion of "The Burning Crusade" is a misnomer, or at the very least ironic.
On the whole, I don't have many huge complaints about MoP Lore.
My biggest criticism of MoP lore is regarding 5.4 and this:
http://imgur.com/X1PBiNj
It's even worse than the LotR ending of Cataclysm. Feels like the plot of a children's cartoon where ... surprise! Horde and Alliance were really just friends all along! It's just tough love! If they were gonna go through with this horde collapse and SoO raid, they should have at least been more realistic with the Alliance strategy.
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On October 03 2013 23:33 Oozo wrote:
if you address me with ego boosting, you are barking wrong tree. Can't understand how you can be this hostile over me telling how easy its to catch up nowadays... jeez... even back in the days, doing prenerfed sunwell did not cause me to ego trip anywhere, it was a achievement fun one too, but nothing to go glory whoring around. And after wotlk, I didnt feel need to raid HC anymore and im nicely enjoying the "casual" side of game thanks for asking.
I didnt mention anything about tbc talents etc, so wont address those cause its not my thing to even argue. They made call, for good or bad, leaving it to that.
I was not mad at single point. I got bored by lore of pandaria... LORE, not game.
Please tone town your hostility and try to not over assume things others say. It will help you lot.
I'm addressing no one in particular, and especially not someone with the attitude like you mention in your first paragraph here. That's exactly how I myself treated the game in the past, and still treat the casual aspects today. Things have changed but so have we. You have the right idea in my opinion. Don't take offense.
I'm just soooo bored of reading about people making sweeping generalizations about the current state of the game. Talents are cookie cutter, classes are homogenized, raid mechanics are rehashed and boring, etc. Almost every point that people make about disliking the current state of the game are bandwagon arguments (often from folks who haven't played in years+). Every point of contention is either blatantly untrue, or something that was always the case and they're just choosing not to remember as such.
For example, saying that current specs are cookie cutter and for every class there's the "right thing to do". Not only has this always been the case, if you're going to go ahead and make such broad generalizations, but I'd also argue that right now specs are the LEAST cookie cutter that they have been in a long time, perhaps EVER. People seem to remember the old, clumsy, sprawling talent trees as "flexible" and having many choices for each class and spec. Maybe that's true LITERALLY (40 talents is more to "choose" than 6), but to say that there weren't cookie cutter or "correct" specs in every case is just plain WRONG. It's always been this way. Right now I'd say that more than half of the 6 talent tiers for each class are entirely open ended. Generally the level 90 talents tend to have a best option for each spec/role, but honestly the 15-75 choices are usually a choice, at least between two options if not all three, depending on the situation and player preference. The same exact thing goes for glyphs; there may be one or two major glyphs that are clear advantages, but the open slots are player preference or situationally dependent. Minor glyphs are almost ALWAYS player preference (even if they are just aesthetic).
Side note: Lore is a different story completely and I agree with you there  I don't strictly dislike Pandaren or Pandaria, but it's definitely not my favorite. Some is nostalgia, but not all. In fact I rediscover more things I like about older zones/content when I level new toons that I never did or realized before that makes me appreciate them more
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On October 04 2013 01:17 GGTeMpLaR wrote:My biggest criticism of MoP lore is regarding 5.4 and this: http://imgur.com/X1PBiNjIt's even worse than the LotR ending of Cataclysm. Feels like the plot of a children's cartoon where ... surprise! Horde and Alliance were really just friends all along! It's just tough love! If they were gonna go through with this horde collapse and SoO raid, they should have at least been more realistic with the Alliance strategy.
It was Garrosh that reignited the war between the Horde and the Alliance. Up until that point we only had small skirmishes with no real winner. Varian trying to retake Lordaeron means the end of the Horde rebellion and surrendering the rest of Kalimdor to Garrosh's Old-God powered army. Guess what follows next?
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On October 04 2013 02:51 akatama wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 01:17 GGTeMpLaR wrote:My biggest criticism of MoP lore is regarding 5.4 and this: http://imgur.com/X1PBiNjIt's even worse than the LotR ending of Cataclysm. Feels like the plot of a children's cartoon where ... surprise! Horde and Alliance were really just friends all along! It's just tough love! If they were gonna go through with this horde collapse and SoO raid, they should have at least been more realistic with the Alliance strategy. Varian trying to retake Lordaeron means the end of the Horde rebellion and surrendering the rest of Kalimdor to Garrosh's Old-God powered army. Guess what follows next?
I don't really see that as a likely outcome, but the Alliance retaking Lordaeron isn't the key point, it's just a reasonable option.
When horde break into a civil war, the most reasonable thing for the Alliance to do is sit back and let the two factions destroy themselves internally. The options of how they plan to take advantage of this situation are strategically very open, but your best-case scenario for Alliance is that they have a long, costly war between themselves while you sit back and wait. Varian does the exact opposite - literally the dumbest move the Alliance can make.
The key points are that the Alliance would ultimately want to make sure the less radical faction wins (which means siding against Garrosh), but you would want it to be a phyrric victory. Fully mobilizing all your forces to end the conflict as soon as possible storming Garrosh's fortified capital strikes me as being motivated from "because reasons".
Let them internally struggle and when they're both bloodied from war exhaustion, come in and tip the balance in your favor by supporting the moderate faction (the rebellion). The rebellion will be extremely weak from the war and at your mercy.
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LFR gear isn't even in the same continent as Normal and especially Heroic gear.
The difference between what a player can do in LFR gear vs what they can do in Heroic gear is as large as Dungeon Blues vs Raiding Epics back in Classic or BC.
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As far as Lore arguments are concerned. That shit is entirely 100% undeniably subjective.
I hated BC's lore. I absolutely loathed it. They completely ruined Illidan, Kael'Thas and Vashj all in the same expansion all while providing the worst train wreck of a race the game has ever had, "Draenei" aka Space Goats.
The storytelling since Wrath has been an enormous improvement vs what we had in BC and Classic, even if the lore isn't to your liking that's a point that's very hard to dispute.
Personally as far as subjective flavor goes, I think Mists of Pandaria might be lore wise only bested by Wrath of the Lich King, it's definitely an improvement over Cataclysm and a HUGE improvement over the filth that was the Burning Crusade's lore.
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As I tend to take a solid 6 month or longer break in every expansion, I can say that MoP is the one I've taken the most breaks during the expansions run.
For me, the lore was interesting to start with the Sha and not really dealing with a ton of Ally vs. Horde plot lines (which I have always been apathetic towards). However, I stopped raiding after clearing normal modes in t14, through the first few months of t15, and have completely detached myself from the game since about a month ago. I've played since 2 months into vanilla's start. Some may complain ab out the lore "ruining" characters in Burning Crusade, but I would argue that my most enjoyable playing experience was certainly through the course of that expansion into the beginning of WotLK as well as the end of WotLK into the beginning of Cataclysm. Perhaps I'm just a bit ADHD but the middle of most expansions have held the least compelling lore/raiding environments. I'm a bit disappointed with MoP overall, although I would certainly rate it higher than Cataclysm and on-par with WotLK.
In other news, how is tier 16 working out for everyone? I did the first 5 or so bosses before my sub ran out (haven't renewed) and I greatly enjoyed doing Timeless Isle but everything just feels so stagnant for me at the moment.
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The pandas make any sort of lore that Blizzard are trying to tell seem worthless. I couldn't really care about what happened in Pandaria when there are excessive pop culture references everywhere, half-arsed quest dialogues and the fact that the pandas themselves don't seem to give a damn either - they're more worried about their beer or clearing out rabbits in the Valley of the Four Winds - which is currently my most hated zone. That really killed the questing immersion for me from the very get go.
Being a huge fan of Warcraft 3 and the earlier WoW expansions, I was drawn in by the seriousness of the world and the constant conflict. Have to remember that the Warcraft universe isn't meant to be goofy at all. Sure, a couple inserts here and there would have been funny, as they have done in the past, but basing an entire expansion on pandas with a poor delivery with the overall story was a mistake.
I'm still pretty bored when I'm on WoW. The new 5.4 Timeless Isle adds nothing to the game with regards to exploration or story. I really want to know why I'm meant to be farming for coins off random creatures for Shaohao just because there's an anomaly in time on the isle or something. Pretty sure it's in there for free loot.
Sure, I still do heroic raids with my guild - I feel obligated to do so after tanking for them for years. However. LFR really wears out the raid content really quickly. It's oversaturation - and it doesn't help that people expect to just do whatever they want in there and wait for loot - it's not very enjoyable in there. I've pretty much avoided leveling as many alts as I used to.
It's back to the same cycle: Level, Blizzard helps you gear your character - which takes about a few days max to get to LFR with. Old tier LFR gets you pretty much everything you need for the new tier in 1-2 weeks, which turns into waiting for LFR to reset every week for the new tier. All of the previous tier content is now even bypassed by Timeless Isle epics. Pretty sure even my casual friends are bored by this. Flexible raids may alleviate that problem for a bit, but it's also a step up in raid mechanics that they wouldn't be easy to Pug as well.
All in all, I don't know. Right now, I'm really only just paying to play with my friends. I don't think I'm the only one doing this :S
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Simple answer. Don't play LFR and expect it to actually represent even slightly what Normal and Heroic raids actually look like.
LFR is a joke. A sick perverted joke that just keeps the ultra casual and ultra lazy happy. If you're using it as a basis to judge what actual raiding in Mists of Pandaria is then you are hopelessly mistaken.
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I think it's horrible to get gear spoonfed. It's really stupid to be able to be raid geared in like 3 hours. Really guys?
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I'm ultra casual (unless you're referring to the derogatory form of the term, then I'm not that, and I find the term repulsive btw) and even I don't want to step foot in LFR much these days.
Kick protection (from being kicked too many times) lets the trolls and griefers get away with murder or go AFK or essentially do whatever they want. Stories of tanks going AFK with 4 hour kick protection. I experienced for myself a hunter pulling all of the trash before the first boss in Heart of Fear in LFR with misdirection and wiping the group several times before his kick protection ran out. For every nightmare, I'm sure there are tens or more of success stories where things just go relatively smoothly and bosses are downed.
Those nightmares are probably becoming more and more frequent given that Flex raiding (combined with Oqueue or OpenRaid) allowed people who don't want to tolerate that garbage an outlet for their casual raiding without the drawbacks of Blizzard-assembled groups. With the power now back in the hands of players for easier-than-normal raiding (my guild fell apart at Ambershaper btw, much like in Wrath my group probably only killed Malygos in EoE once because of the vehicle mechanic) I really feel like LFR is doomed to further fall down the scale of even being close to a raiding experience given the audience that uses/abuses it.
On October 04 2013 08:47 Ethelis wrote:
I think it's horrible to get gear spoonfed. It's really stupid to be able to be raid geared in like 3 hours. Really guys?
This argument is kind of weird. I mean it's the end of the expansion so getting 496 gear really isn't a big deal considering what is available from normal+ raiding. ToT normal was, what, 522? 496 for most slots is a decent way to gear up an alt if you want to try a new class, but generally people aren't even performing to the standards of their item level given their unfamiliarity with their classes and rotations. Weapons are the major component to every role's effectiveness (weapon damage for tanks, melee, hunters, and spell power for casters) so even with a 496 item in every other slot, it's just lipstick on a pig. So many factors go in to a player's capabilities that gear should generally be the last thing you're worried about, and yet it's a pervasive mindset that gear is somehow the end-all be-all of the game. Not 530 item level? Get the fuck out of my raid! Not 520 item level? Stay the fuck out of my heroic scenario! (Never mind that you only need 480 to queue for it.)
Where exactly do you see an issue with getting "raid geared" (I use this term loosely, timeless pieces are band-aids, let's just be honest here) when generally the people who use these items generally aren't even raiders. Remember, timeless isle had to be made somewhat challenging for even raiders, so everything hits like a truck and has millions of HP. Giving the players that want to explore there the ability to actually succeed in doing so can't honestly be bad, can it?
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