• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:07
CEST 15:07
KST 22:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3
Community News
New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!31Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week5Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles2GSTL Returns in 2026!45Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7
StarCraft 2
General
SC4ALL II: SC2 Player Announcement 6/8 - Maru How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2? Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week Starcraft2 player guess game is Coming~!
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Announcement IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) WORTEX 2026 - Hungarian SC2 Finals Budapest
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 540 Dodge This The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome Mutation # 538 Media Blackout
Brood War
General
!!!NEW BUG!!! FIRE ARCHONS [Visual] New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery! BW General Discussion [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 [ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call
Tourneys
Escore Tournament - Season 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro24 Group F KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Game Theory for Starcraft Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Violent Games and Crime Rate…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9931 users

[wow] Mists of pandaria - Page 72

Forum Index > General Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 70 71 72 73 74 109 Next
The NA-based TL WoW guild has been set: it is being formed on Cenarius as alliance. Talk to farvacola if you want more info!

Add yourself to the player list!

Use this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=434775 for Warlord of Draenor discussion please!
Takkara
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2503 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-03 17:28:12
November 03 2012 17:27 GMT
#1421
On October 24 2012 11:34 Silentness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 10:54 Slaughter wrote:
On October 21 2012 03:45 Sophia wrote:
I don't miss old WoW. Rogues were OP as shit... before they normalized weapon speed damage. BARMAN Shanker anyone? Stunlock the shit out of people... cheap shot-> kidney shot -> blind -> restealth... repeat until you die. Back before there were pvp trinkets.


I played Hunter (Rank13) and both Warrior (Rank11) and Rouge (Rank11) in Vanilla and have to disagree. Warrior > Rogue > Caster.
Vanilla WoW was just not balanced for 1v1. WoW was never ultra-competetive, PvP can never be 100% fair. But WoW was so much fun back in the days. From Sorrow Hill to Tarren's Mill into Month of AV/WSG Farming. I even remember doing open PvP with my MS-Warri and my Holy-Pally infront of AQ. We "two-manned" complete 10-man AQ-Grps, Warrior with support (Blessing of Freedom/Dispell) was just unstoppable!
I only played Random in the Vanilla-Bgs and I have no idea how many WSGs I won by myself with my hunter. If there was a somewhat good Drood or Pally in the WSG, we won already. In Vanilla you could show your Skill and Experience. If I would play now again, I would just get roflstomped by People with Heirlooms at Lowlevel and by Casuals who farmed 1000 BGs for their Epic-PvP-Gear with 32432423 Resilience.

Vanilla and TBC was just the most fun I had ever in a Videogame and its so sad what the MMO Genre has become now.


Warriors when they had Windfury weapon from the totem lol the bitching from Alliance "we no get windfury totem".


Or the horde complaining that they have to throw down totems and that they don't get 5 minute blessings.

Oh yeah and I miss the barman shanker days, the beta rogue where sap lasted an eternity LOL, and Zulian trinket that gave like +60 energy or some shit. So OP


The Zulian trinket didn't exist in beta. ZG was added much much later.

EDIT: Unless you just meant that both individually were OP, which is more or less true.
Gee gee gee gee baby baby baby
Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
November 03 2012 17:58 GMT
#1422
On November 02 2012 13:48 thatsundowner wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2012 00:26 Madkipz wrote:
I dislike the notion of 10 man raids anyhow, and as a vanilla raider i feel 25 man should be the only viable raiding style while 10man was reduced to stuff like UBRS. They will never manage to balance the two different raidmodes to be compatible.


Some bosses are harder in 10 while some are harder in 25, it's fine


Yes. It`s fine as it is, but I said I thought it would be better with just one raidmode, and then 10 man could basically be an upgrade from 5 man dungeons to allow for shorter queues and larger pulls.
"Mudkip"
Takkara
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2503 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-03 18:10:32
November 03 2012 18:10 GMT
#1423
EDIT: Wrong thread, sorry.
Gee gee gee gee baby baby baby
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
November 05 2012 17:13 GMT
#1424
I've been pretty much bedridden level sick the last couple days, so I decided to download the trial. The panda starting area is decent, but I just can't bring myself to level past 85. The quests are so boring and samey and don't have the nostalgia value of older quests. Even the play doesn't have the same nostalgia value. I'm affliction, and I can't cast shadowbolt anymore, all of my skills are dots and channels. That's INSANELY BORING to play

My DK isn't much different, my priest is kinda weird, and I really don't care much about the rest of the classes. Perhaps it's just the fact I went into it not expecting to be impressed, but I couldn't even get past the first questline before I was too bored to do anything. Running low lvl dungeons on my alt was the only time I actually had fun, but that was in large part due to the nostalgia value. All the dungeons were run in complete silence by people I did not know and would never see again thanks to the double-sided innovation of the cross-realm dungeon finder.

None of the new quests/areas have anything new (that I saw, I ran the entire panda starting zone and the first few quests of both alliance and horde side, predictably mirrored and almost identical to the Twilight Highlands intro), or at least not new enough to make me actually enjoy the gameplay. In short, WoW is still dead for me, nostalgia is the only saving grace and it's just not present in any of the new areas.
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
November 05 2012 17:19 GMT
#1425
On November 02 2012 13:48 thatsundowner wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2012 00:26 Madkipz wrote:
I dislike the notion of 10 man raids anyhow, and as a vanilla raider i feel 25 man should be the only viable raiding style while 10man was reduced to stuff like UBRS. They will never manage to balance the two different raidmodes to be compatible.


Some bosses are harder in 10 while some are harder in 25, it's fine

I know when i was doing Rag in my guild on 10man,(where you only got 1rez of course) 1 death before the meteor phase pretty much guaranteed a wipe. In the offchance your tank fucked up and died in p3, if you'd already used your rez you were dead no matter what. Since his debuff would stack on the other tank with its like 50k/s debuff+ his like 90k autoattacks. was always one of my most memorable ones
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Enox
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany1667 Posts
November 05 2012 17:43 GMT
#1426
On November 04 2012 02:19 epoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 10:44 Sophia wrote:
Now after the 10 Day Pandaland Trial is finally available, I tried it with my Holly Pally and got bored after ~60min. I've "healed" (aka AFK'ed) the two Level85 dungeons and done ~4 Quests in Pandaland.
The only thing I got from this sessions was that they removed Auras WTF?!?!?!?! Was it too hard for the casuals to use Auras or what?
Thats exactly why WoW is so terrible, because Blizz removed all the fun stuff with no reason at all.

User was temp banned for this post.


Panda trial? Where can you get that?

you can just activate it in your bnet account when you click on your WoW account
If you think it's too hard there are solutions other than asking for a nerf, getting better is the first that comes to mind.
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
November 10 2012 09:44 GMT
#1427
I tried to name a char Jaedongraegu but blizzard censors dong -_- Just remembered why Jaedong goes by JD now in SC2. gdi blizzard!
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
IntoTheEmo
Profile Joined February 2009
Singapore1170 Posts
November 10 2012 10:03 GMT
#1428
On November 10 2012 18:44 Tachion wrote:
I tried to name a char Jaedongraegu but blizzard censors dong -_- Just remembered why Jaedong goes by JD now in SC2. gdi blizzard!


I tried to name my Zergling Jaedong . It is now named Ee Han Timing.
MMOs kill APM. However Proleague plus BW Proscene music increase APM -> 100. 이제동 Fighting! Highest ranked Jaedong owner in FPL10 = clearly #1 Jaedong fan~! <- Keeping my sig from 2010
Irave
Profile Joined October 2010
United States9965 Posts
November 17 2012 02:56 GMT
#1429
Anyone going to be watching the WoW part of the World Championship?
nyxnyxnyx
Profile Joined April 2010
Indonesia2978 Posts
November 28 2012 15:17 GMT
#1430
long shot, but does anyone here play on Frostmourne? i have a request to make of you!
cool beans
sunglasseson
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States145 Posts
December 03 2012 13:35 GMT
#1431
is there a TL server? i got back into the game and i no longer know anyone to pvp with since i didnt play cata

was glad on a few dif classes and r1 on 2 so would be amazing if there was a TL crew that pvp'd
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
December 03 2012 13:38 GMT
#1432
On December 03 2012 22:35 sunglasseson wrote:
is there a TL server? i got back into the game and i no longer know anyone to pvp with since i didnt play cata

was glad on a few dif classes and r1 on 2 so would be amazing if there was a TL crew that pvp'd


The basic TLDR Info
New Guild starting with level 1 characters on Sunday, March 25th.
Server: Lightning's Blade (US-PvP)
Guild: IMBA*
Faction: Horde
Mumble(Voice): 76.74.238.52 port 2412
Contact Info: "Masq" on TL, or "MasqIPY" on AIM, or ask anyone in IMBA.

Theres another wow thread it's details is in there.
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
sunglasseson
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States145 Posts
December 03 2012 14:01 GMT
#1433
are there any good pvpers in the guild that you know of?
chilledjuice
Profile Joined December 2012
3 Posts
December 03 2012 14:15 GMT
#1434
Pandemona, could you link?
@ sunglasseson, same boat as you; quit after s3 in tbc, looking to get back into game for teh pvpz.
Maxyim
Profile Joined March 2012
430 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-03 16:49:16
December 03 2012 16:39 GMT
#1435
@TL guild, send me a shout when you get close to new content and I may dust off my 300+ days /played undead rogue fossil. He is 85 atm.

On November 04 2012 02:27 Takkara wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 11:34 Silentness wrote:
On October 24 2012 10:54 Slaughter wrote:
On October 21 2012 03:45 Sophia wrote:
I don't miss old WoW. Rogues were OP as shit... before they normalized weapon speed damage. BARMAN Shanker anyone? Stunlock the shit out of people... cheap shot-> kidney shot -> blind -> restealth... repeat until you die. Back before there were pvp trinkets.


I played Hunter (Rank13) and both Warrior (Rank11) and Rouge (Rank11) in Vanilla and have to disagree. Warrior > Rogue > Caster.
Vanilla WoW was just not balanced for 1v1. WoW was never ultra-competetive, PvP can never be 100% fair. But WoW was so much fun back in the days. From Sorrow Hill to Tarren's Mill into Month of AV/WSG Farming. I even remember doing open PvP with my MS-Warri and my Holy-Pally infront of AQ. We "two-manned" complete 10-man AQ-Grps, Warrior with support (Blessing of Freedom/Dispell) was just unstoppable!
I only played Random in the Vanilla-Bgs and I have no idea how many WSGs I won by myself with my hunter. If there was a somewhat good Drood or Pally in the WSG, we won already. In Vanilla you could show your Skill and Experience. If I would play now again, I would just get roflstomped by People with Heirlooms at Lowlevel and by Casuals who farmed 1000 BGs for their Epic-PvP-Gear with 32432423 Resilience.

Vanilla and TBC was just the most fun I had ever in a Videogame and its so sad what the MMO Genre has become now.


Warriors when they had Windfury weapon from the totem lol the bitching from Alliance "we no get windfury totem".


Or the horde complaining that they have to throw down totems and that they don't get 5 minute blessings.

Oh yeah and I miss the barman shanker days, the beta rogue where sap lasted an eternity LOL, and Zulian trinket that gave like +60 energy or some shit. So OP


The Zulian trinket didn't exist in beta. ZG was added much much later.

EDIT: Unless you just meant that both individually were OP, which is more or less true.



I used to love the Renataki combo. I had Perds from mid-2004, which did more than 2.0 Barman; never got any of the stronger daggers though (qq RNG). I remember running up to some fools, turning on Blade Flurry, stealthing (out of combat), and AoE Amboosh > Backstab > Vanish > Amboosh, with renataki backstabs to finish off the survivors.
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
December 03 2012 16:50 GMT
#1436
On December 03 2012 23:15 chilledjuice wrote:
Pandemona, could you link?
@ sunglasseson, same boat as you; quit after s3 in tbc, looking to get back into game for teh pvpz.



Why on earth would you want to play this game for PvP? They break it for extended periods after every expansion, it won't be till at least next season when there's a semblance of balance.

If you like arena PvP, go play Forge or Bloodline Champions or something, no reason to bother with WoW for that.
Maxyim
Profile Joined March 2012
430 Posts
December 03 2012 17:06 GMT
#1437
On December 04 2012 01:50 deth2munkies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2012 23:15 chilledjuice wrote:
Pandemona, could you link?
@ sunglasseson, same boat as you; quit after s3 in tbc, looking to get back into game for teh pvpz.



Why on earth would you want to play this game for PvP? They break it for extended periods after every expansion, it won't be till at least next season when there's a semblance of balance.

If you like arena PvP, go play Forge or Bloodline Champions or something, no reason to bother with WoW for that.


Because it is accessible and fun. No reason to not bother with it while it is there. I despise WoW just as much as the next raving gaming elitist, but it is not fair to say that it is completely without its merits.
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-03 17:17:00
December 03 2012 17:16 GMT
#1438
As a multi glad rogue, priest and druid, this expansion is terrible PvP wise. To much one shot macros and burst from Ret palys, Warriors, Mages and BM Hunters.
Life?
Crownlol
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States3726 Posts
December 03 2012 17:21 GMT
#1439
On November 04 2012 02:27 Takkara wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 11:34 Silentness wrote:
On October 24 2012 10:54 Slaughter wrote:
On October 21 2012 03:45 Sophia wrote:
I don't miss old WoW. Rogues were OP as shit... before they normalized weapon speed damage. BARMAN Shanker anyone? Stunlock the shit out of people... cheap shot-> kidney shot -> blind -> restealth... repeat until you die. Back before there were pvp trinkets.


I played Hunter (Rank13) and both Warrior (Rank11) and Rouge (Rank11) in Vanilla and have to disagree. Warrior > Rogue > Caster.
Vanilla WoW was just not balanced for 1v1. WoW was never ultra-competetive, PvP can never be 100% fair. But WoW was so much fun back in the days. From Sorrow Hill to Tarren's Mill into Month of AV/WSG Farming. I even remember doing open PvP with my MS-Warri and my Holy-Pally infront of AQ. We "two-manned" complete 10-man AQ-Grps, Warrior with support (Blessing of Freedom/Dispell) was just unstoppable!
I only played Random in the Vanilla-Bgs and I have no idea how many WSGs I won by myself with my hunter. If there was a somewhat good Drood or Pally in the WSG, we won already. In Vanilla you could show your Skill and Experience. If I would play now again, I would just get roflstomped by People with Heirlooms at Lowlevel and by Casuals who farmed 1000 BGs for their Epic-PvP-Gear with 32432423 Resilience.

Vanilla and TBC was just the most fun I had ever in a Videogame and its so sad what the MMO Genre has become now.


Warriors when they had Windfury weapon from the totem lol the bitching from Alliance "we no get windfury totem".


Or the horde complaining that they have to throw down totems and that they don't get 5 minute blessings.

Oh yeah and I miss the barman shanker days, the beta rogue where sap lasted an eternity LOL, and Zulian trinket that gave like +60 energy or some shit. So OP


The Zulian trinket didn't exist in beta. ZG was added much much later.

EDIT: Unless you just meant that both individually were OP, which is more or less true.



He means Renataki's which wasn't even that broken. Mut rogues were completely unplayable without that trinket. The Zandalarian Hero Charm + that other on-use mage trinket were much worse.
shaGuar :: elemeNt :: XeqtR :: naikon :: method
Crownlol
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States3726 Posts
December 03 2012 17:22 GMT
#1440
On December 04 2012 02:16 ShoCkeyy wrote:
As a multi glad rogue, priest and druid, this expansion is terrible PvP wise. To much one shot macros and burst from Ret palys, Warriors, Mages and BM Hunters.



I quit after the first season of Cata (2400+ Sham/Mage/Lock/Rogue). I'm checking out Forge- arena PvP with no PvE balance or items.
shaGuar :: elemeNt :: XeqtR :: naikon :: method
Prev 1 70 71 72 73 74 109 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
IntoTheTV X SOOP
11:00
ISSL Weekly #2
ByuN vs SHINLIVE!
TBD vs herO
IntoTheiNu 806
WardiTV781
Rex122
CranKy Ducklings76
CranKy Ducklings SOOP9
LiquipediaDiscussion
Escore
10:00
Season 3
escodisco1776
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Rex 122
Serral 107
SHIN 20
ByuN (SOOP) 15
herO (SOOP) 15
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 49266
Calm 10474
Shuttle 1724
Jaedong 935
EffOrt 681
Pusan 569
BeSt 566
Light 491
firebathero 475
Mini 436
[ Show more ]
Snow 254
Soma 245
Soulkey 226
Zeus 176
Leta 137
Hyun 137
ToSsGirL 111
Rush 90
Killer 85
Yoon 64
Mong 63
JYJ 50
Aegong 31
Terrorterran 22
sorry 18
Bale 18
Noble 18
zelot 17
Sacsri 16
soO 16
Shine 15
Free 14
Hm[arnc] 13
Sexy 10
yabsab 9
scan(afreeca) 9
Dota 2
Gorgc3194
qojqva1958
BananaSlamJamma21
Counter-Strike
fl0m2669
olofmeister1490
kRYSTAL_687
zeus284
Sick100
edward84
Other Games
singsing2440
B2W.Neo428
Lowko367
DeMusliM208
QueenE35
Liquid`VortiX34
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick3069
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 11
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV711
League of Legends
• Jankos1562
• TFBlade547
Upcoming Events
RotterdaM Event
3h 23m
The PiG Daily
7h 53m
BASILISK vs TBD
Serral vs Rogue
Korean StarCraft League
12h 53m
GSL
21h 53m
Replay Cast
1d 10h
WardiTV Weekly
1d 21h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
GSL
3 days
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-27
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
RSL Revival: Season 6
Light Tournament 2026
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

BSL 2026 LAN: Kraków
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Calamity Invitational
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.