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The NA-based TL WoW guild has been set: it is being formed on Cenarius as alliance. Talk to farvacola if you want more info! Add yourself to the player list! Use this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=434775 for Warlord of Draenor discussion please! | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:05 snarl wrote: why the fuck would anyone finish t11 when LFR and even 5 mans gives better gear? Why the hell didn't they finish T11 before T12 came out? | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
This is actually another change that began to be introduced with wotlk and was really solidified with cata. You ne longer need to raid old tiers because the items get a lot better when a new tier is released and because each boss drops so many items (1 item per 5 players, up from 1 item per 20 players in vanilla). Are you still trying to progress through tier 11? Are you failing to do so even with your ilevel 397+ gear? I highly doubt it. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:08 paralleluniverse wrote: Why the hell didn't they finish T11 before T12 came out? Exactly! You are so close to the point. Tier 11 should not have been finished before tier 12 came out. That way everyone can progress through the tiers at their own pace. That is not about difficulty and it not about hardcore vs casual. it is about (lack of) content due to changed made between the early expansions and the latter ones. In this case the change was that more items drop per boss kill and that older items are not as good due to homogenisation of stats/gear. | ||
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snarl
Canada812 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:08 paralleluniverse wrote: Why the hell didn't they finish T11 before T12 came out? because there were 4 more bosses on normal mode and 5 more on heroic. that's 9 more "bosses" for that entire tier. there also wasn't a growing buff that help your raid progress if you were garbage. firelands came out a lot sooner compared to how long DS has been out. i honestly don't even know what you are trying to argue here anymore. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:20 snarl wrote: because there were 4 more bosses on normal mode and 5 more on heroic. that's 9 more "bosses" for that entire tier. there also wasn't a growing buff that help your raid progress if you were garbage. firelands came out a lot sooner compared to how long DS has been out. i honestly don't even know what you are trying to argue here anymore. The correct answer is because it was too fucking hard. Naxx had 15 bosses and was cleared in 3 days. The length of T11 was 8 months, compared to DS which has been out for 9 months. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:11 hzflank wrote: Exactly! You are so close to the point. Tier 11 should not have been finished before tier 12 came out. That way everyone can progress through the tiers at their own pace. That is not about difficulty and it not about hardcore vs casual. it is about (lack of) content due to changed made between the early expansions and the latter ones. In this case the change was that more items drop per boss kill and that older items are not as good due to homogenisation of stats/gear. That's exactly the point, T11 was NOT finished before T12 came out for like over 99% of the players. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
It is a bad thing because Firelands made it redundant, not because t11 was too hard. Would you not of rather finished t11 before starting t12? And then raided t11 and t12 simultaneously? So that you had some farm content and some progression content each week. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:09 hzflank wrote: That is because tier 12 made tier 11 redundant. No one raids tier 11 anymore. This is actually another change that began to be introduced with wotlk and was really solidified with cata. You ne longer need to raid old tiers because the items get a lot better when a new tier is released and because each boss drops so many items (1 item per 5 players, up from 1 item per 20 players in vanilla). Are you still trying to progress through tier 11? Are you failing to do so even with your ilevel 397+ gear? I highly doubt it. The question was why wasn't T11 cleared before T12 came out, not whether or not T12 made T11 irrelevant. The answer is because T11 was too hard. The amount of loot that bosses drop is irrelevant to difficulty. If less gear dropped, then Blizzard would have to tune encounters in the latest tier under the assumption that half your raid's gear is from the tier before the previous. This would be a nerf to the encounters relative to what their difficultly would have been if tuned under the assumption that the entire raid was in the previous tier's gear. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:37 hzflank wrote: And why is that a bad thing? It is a bad thing because Firelands made it redundant, not because t11 was too hard. Would you not of rather finished t11 before starting t12? And then raided t11 and t12 simultaneously? So that you had some farm content and some progression content each week. But I thought WoW was too easy... There is always farm content -- normal modes. If the new raid tier does not make the previous tier redundant then we are back to the TBC raid model and the many problems associated with it. These problems have been discussed in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277847¤tpage=23#455 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277847¤tpage=24#471 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277847¤tpage=24#476 | ||
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victarrr
United States21 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:34 paralleluniverse wrote: The correct answer is because it was too fucking hard. Naxx had 15 bosses and was cleared in 3 days. The length of T11 was 8 months, compared to DS which has been out for 9 months. Comparing anything to 80Naxx is just silly. I feel as if they saw Naxx as this monster of a raid, in terms of difficulty, and undertuned it for 10/25 players. Obtaining the Meta pre-3.1 was still very difficult and it is kinda cool that they removed it from obtainable status. I didn't really raid much in Cataclysm (it all seemed like boring content and my server basically died) but from what I've done it isn't much more harder than Wrath was. Wrath had some pretty hard content (Ulduar Hard Modes, LK Heroic) and so did Cata (Heroic Spine, Heroic Rag) but the content isn't more difficult because of some interesting thing. You simply bump up the difficulty and get the same content (albeit harder) with a bit of spice. Take Yogg + 0 for example. That shit was stupidly hard because of how the mechanics of the fight were drastically changed, while keeping the core fight in tact. They didn't just scale the boss up and add more fire or some dicks. That is harder but it certainly isn't interesting. $0.02 | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
I am not sure how to explain this any better, but I will try again. I did not finish AQ before Naxx was released. Most people did not. It was not a problem at all because the early bosses from Naxx boosted our gear so that we could kill Cthun. Then we raided AQ and Naxx simultaneously. This worked well. Then TBC came out. We had not finished Naxx yet. Naxx was made redundant and we move on to new content without ever finishing Naxx. This did not work well. Both AQ and Naxx were of similar difficulty. One worked and one did not. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
Vanilla/TBC progression will never work again. The game is not in the growth phase any longer. Without a catch-up mechanic, returning players are heavily discouraged from resubscribing to the game in the middle of an expansion. Even the relatively new players are discouraged to do so. It's just too difficult to catch up otherwise. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
Seriously, just the design philosophy behind tanks was so much different back then you can't even start to compare, because TRASH was quite capable or 2 or 3 shotting tanks back then and there was actually mobs you couldn't sheep :-O I won't even contemplate longer on vanilla and stuff like mobs having thrash attacks and parry hasted attacks that could simply KO a tank, up to raid level. Even more fun when a boss parried a tank's attack and did a double swing. | ||
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-UMADIMSTYLIN-
Cuba292 Posts
 I miss you Alone on Dark Iron | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
On August 07 2012 00:57 andrewlt wrote: You did that because you wanted to. My guild stopped raiding AQ the moment Naxx came out. It was no different than what is happening currently. The only time we ever raided two different tiers at the same time was MC and BWL and that was mostly because of how random the set drop rate was back then. Vanilla/TBC progression will never work again. The game is not in the growth phase any longer. Without a catch-up mechanic, returning players are heavily discouraged from resubscribing to the game in the middle of an expansion. Even the relatively new players are discouraged to do so. It's just too difficult to catch up otherwise. I remember when this point came. Naxx had just came out and my guild started raiding both at the same time. Its also right when I quit (the first time) and I missed ALL of TBC and came back when wrath was released so I missed the whole "true" experience of TBC since everyone had fled to Northrend when I came back and that was sad :\ You are right though in that they do it that way for returning players to catch up to current content faster and easier. I remember I quit cata right as the firelands was introduced and I had all Heroic gear/ some firelands trash raid stuff so my ilvl was decent but I couldn't do teir 11 raids because of the hell in trying to get into a group as a solo player. but Bam I come back and run some of the new heroics (hour of twilight shit) and Oh look im ready to raid the new content using the raid finder EZ PZ. Seems kind of silly. Also I made a DK and in like 2 weeks of pvping she had the entire set from honor and was able to buy some conquest peices. I mean its just EASY. The progression just hands it to you with small item increase build ups (if you can take the grind of pvp or pve) you do heroics then some raid finder raids then go do regular raids. This also makes people who are in the guilds and can tackle the hardest modes earlier go "ok what now?" because they skipped that progression and then they look at people doing the easier content and their gear doesn't seem that much better. Also I know this is probably nostalgia rose tinted glasses but I miss the days where you could use gear you got raiding in PvP. I liked it that a guy in pvp armor and one in pve armor could go toe to toe. Hell thats part of the reason WHY people did pve, so they could progress higher in content and go for ownage in pvp. But people who didn't raid could pvp and gain gear as well. Fucking Resilance stat. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On August 05 2012 03:16 victarrr wrote: Comparing anything to 80Naxx is just silly. I feel as if they saw Naxx as this monster of a raid, in terms of difficulty, and undertuned it for 10/25 players. Obtaining the Meta pre-3.1 was still very difficult and it is kinda cool that they removed it from obtainable status. I didn't really raid much in Cataclysm (it all seemed like boring content and my server basically died) but from what I've done it isn't much more harder than Wrath was. Wrath had some pretty hard content (Ulduar Hard Modes, LK Heroic) and so did Cata (Heroic Spine, Heroic Rag) but the content isn't more difficult because of some interesting thing. You simply bump up the difficulty and get the same content (albeit harder) with a bit of spice. Take Yogg + 0 for example. That shit was stupidly hard because of how the mechanics of the fight were drastically changed, while keeping the core fight in tact. They didn't just scale the boss up and add more fire or some dicks. That is harder but it certainly isn't interesting. $0.02 Are you saying Heroic Rag wasn't hard because of something interesting? da fuq. I forget which top guild said that was the hardest heroic boss to come out ever. And also, T11 WAS hard. But I think with good common sense and decent dps the difficulty was lowered alot. (you still had bullshit like Nefarians electrocute though.) Granted you still had some really really easy fights Atramedes, V/T, Halfus on a good week,Magmaw, The vast majority was fairly difficult. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4461 Posts
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Mephyss
Brazil128 Posts
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On August 07 2012 23:18 Mephyss wrote: I think most of the difficult coming from the raids are based on how geared you entered them. T11 Heroics were hard because most of the people were undergeared rolling still in blues. ICC Heroic was destroyed first week because you could have the entire raid running on 258/264 gear because of the gating and months of ToC Heroic. Firelands and DS suffered from same problem Firelands was still quite difficult imo, they did make several quality of life changes to it that made it alot easier after release though | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On August 07 2012 23:23 arb wrote: Firelands was still quite difficult imo, they did make several quality of life changes to it that made it alot easier after release though I think he means Firelands was hard because people were undergeared, while on DS everyone had 378/391 gear(plus HoT dungeons and RF giving 378/384/390 gear); So it looks significantly easier when your entire raid already has a more-than-required gear for the raid with 390 gear. | ||
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