EPT[wow] Mists of pandaria - Page 29
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The NA-based TL WoW guild has been set: it is being formed on Cenarius as alliance. Talk to farvacola if you want more info! Add yourself to the player list! Use this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=434775 for Warlord of Draenor discussion please! | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
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Thorakh
Netherlands1788 Posts
Sub started dropping in Q1 2011, and heroic dungeon were the hardest they've ever been in 4.0. That's a joke right? Heroic dungeons were pisseasy for anyone who didn't push random buttons. The reason why the 4.0 heroics were perceived to be so hard was because of LFD. LFD doesn't filter on anything else than ilvl so every bad player could get into the heroics and screw up the run for the rest of the players.The LFG tool and content being difficulty do not mix, unless Blizzard adopts a filter that doesn't just filter on ilvl. And there was also the problem of not having any content for casuals in 4.0. What was Blizzard smoking when they thought up the design philosophy for Cataclysm? The entire expansion has been ruined by bad decisions. Picture this, it's the end of WotLK and Blizzard HQ: blizzguy1: "Hey, people are complaining WoW is too easy, what do we do?" blizzguy2: "I know! Let's make all content superhard and provide no content at all for casual players!" blizzmanager: "What a good idea! You're promoted!" End of patch 4.2: blizzguy1: "Hey, people are complaining WoW is too hard, what do we do?" blizzguy2: "I know! Let's make everything supereasy and provide no challenging content outside of heroic mode raids!" blizzmanager: "What a good idea! You're promoted!" It seems Blizzard finally understands easy and hard content can co-exist, judging from MoP. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On August 04 2012 19:46 Thorakh wrote: That's a joke right? Heroic dungeons were pisseasy for anyone who didn't push random buttons. The reason why the 4.0 heroics were perceived to be so hard was because of LFD. LFD doesn't filter on anything else than ilvl so every bad player could get into the heroics and screw up the run for the rest of the players. The LFG tool and content being difficulty do not mix, unless Blizzard adopts a filter that doesn't just filter on ilvl. And there was also the problem of not having any content for casuals in 4.0. What was Blizzard smoking when they thought up the design philosophy for Cataclysm? The entire expansion has been ruined by bad decisions. Picture this, it's the end of WotLK and Blizzard HQ: blizzguy1: "Hey, people are complaining WoW is too easy, what do we do?" blizzguy2: "I know! Let's make all content superhard and provide no content at all for casual players!" blizzmanager: "What a good idea! You're promoted!" End of patch 4.2: blizzguy1: "Hey, people are complaining WoW is too hard, what do we do?" blizzguy2: "I know! Let's make everything supereasy and provide no challenging content outside of heroic mode raids!" blizzmanager: "What a good idea! You're promoted!" It seems Blizzard finally understands easy and hard content can co-exist, judging from MoP. When were heroic dungeons harder? Vanilla had no heroics and the level 60 dungeons were quite easy. TBC had some heroics that were on par with Cata heroics (before they were nerfed), although there are only 3 hard heroics: Arcatraz, Shattered Halls (probably hardest heroic dungeon ever) and Magister's Terrance, while nearly all of the Cata heroics were about this difficulty (before nerf). Nothing for casuals to do? Again, how is this any different from previous expansions. The whole game is just heroics, raids, dailies and PvP. So if people were fine with this in the past, what's changed? The idea of easy and hard content coexisting isn't new. WoW already has easy and hard content at the moment. As you put it, the problem is casuals. They either can't get into a raid guild to raid, or can't commit to the raiding schedule. So they require 5 man content. If the 5 man content is too hard, like it was in 4.0 when they were mass complaining, they will quit. So what MoP does is keep heroics easy, as they currently are, but add challenge modes that do not reward gear so that casuals don't feel obligated to be able to beat it in record time. | ||
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brolaf
291 Posts
On August 04 2012 19:33 paralleluniverse wrote: Subs started dropping in Q1 2011, and heroic dungeons were the hardest they've ever been in 4.0. The QQ was rampant. Ever try vanilla Stratholme and Scholomance? Requires immaculate cc combinations and healing to keep tank alive without aggroing others and slowly crawling through it. And this is with bis preraid gear. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On August 04 2012 20:00 paralleluniverse wrote: When were heroic dungeons harder? Vanilla had no heroics and the level 60 dungeons were quite easy. TBC had some heroics that were on par with Cata heroics (before they were nerfed), although there are only 3 hard heroics: Arcatraz, Shattered Halls (probably hardest heroic dungeon ever) and Magister's Terrance, while nearly all of the Cata heroics were about this difficulty (before nerf). Nothing for casuals to do? Again, how is this any different from previous expansions. The whole game is just heroics, raids, dailies and PvP. So if people were fine with this in the past, what's changed? The idea of easy and hard content coexisting isn't new. WoW already has easy and hard content at the moment. As you put it, the problem is casuals. They either can't get into a raid guild to raid, or can't commit to the raiding schedule. So they require 5 man content. If the 5 man content is too hard, like it was in 4.0 when they were mass complaining, they will quit. So what MoP does is keep heroics easy, as they currently are, but add challenge modes that do not reward gear so that casuals don't feel obligated to be able to beat it in record time. Challenge mode actually rewards cosmetic gears that look pretty cool.:D | ||
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Thorakh
Netherlands1788 Posts
On August 04 2012 20:00 paralleluniverse wrote: Come now, the 4.0 heroics were incomparable to the TBC heroics, save maybe the Slave Pens, for any coordinated group. The problem was LFD and unfiltered, automated grouping.When were heroic dungeons harder? Vanilla had no heroics and the level 60 dungeons were quite easy. TBC had some heroics that were on par with Cata heroics (before they were nerfed), although there are only 3 hard heroics: Arcatraz, Shattered Halls (probably hardest heroic dungeon ever) and Magister's Terrance, while nearly all of the Cata heroics were about this difficulty (before nerf). Nothing for casuals to do? Again, how is this any different from previous expansions. The whole game is just heroics, raids, dailies and PvP. So if people were fine with this in the past, what's changed? The idea of easy and hard content coexisting isn't new. WoW already has easy and hard content at the moment. As you put it, the problem is casuals. They either can't get into a raid guild to raid, or can't commit to the raiding schedule. So they require 5 man content. If the 5 man content is too hard, like it was in 4.0 when they were mass complaining, they will quit. So what MoP does is keep heroics easy, as they currently are, but add challenge modes that do not reward gear so that casuals don't feel obligated to be able to beat it in record time. In TBC casuals had lots of normal dungeons to do and everything generally took much more time which increased the lifespan on the game. In WotLK casuals had lots of normal and heroics dungeons to do. And that's even ignoring things like the Argent Tournament, Isle of Quel'Danas and other such things. In 4.0 there was nothing for casual players besides three normal dungeons which got stale very fast. | ||
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Brett
Australia3822 Posts
On August 04 2012 18:51 paralleluniverse wrote: Way off base? First people argue that WoW is too easy. Then when it's shown that world first guilds take as long to beat these encounters as they have in the previous expansions, the argument suddenly changes to the fact that there's massive nerfs to all encounters. Then when it's shown that a very very large majority of players still can't beat many heroic encounters, the argument suddenly shifts to LFR and and a lack of server community. Then when it's shown that this isn't related to how hard raid content is, and that people use trade chat to PUG normals, and that there's no LFG for challenge modes in MoP, the argument suddenly goes back to WoW being too easy and we start all over again. There is no coherent argument from whiners like yourself. Yes, way off base because I've cleared all raid content in this game, being everything from Naxx 40m to DS HM/Heroics, when it was relevant. Way off base because you're assigning arguments to me that I didn't make. But keep spewing nonsense, friend. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On August 04 2012 20:00 brolaf wrote: Ever try vanilla Stratholme and Scholomance? Requires immaculate cc combinations and healing to keep tank alive without aggroing others and slowly crawling through it. And this is with bis preraid gear. Yeah, I did try Strath and Scholo, and BRS. I still remember the guild runs I did a few months after launch. Scholo is painfully long, it look about 3 hours the clear, although it wasn't particularly hard. Janice and the that butcher/doctor guy were probably the hardest boss, although Janice can be skipped. I also remember pugging 40 minutes Baron. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On August 04 2012 20:07 Thorakh wrote: Come now, the 4.0 heroics were incomparable to the TBC heroics, save maybe the Slave Pens, for any coordinated group. The problem was LFD and unfiltered, automated grouping. In TBC casuals had lots of normal dungeons to do and everything generally took much more time which increased the lifespan on the game. In WotLK casuals had lots of normal and heroics dungeons to do. And that's even ignoring things like the Argent Tournament, Isle of Quel'Danas and other such things. In 4.0 there was nothing for casual players besides three normal dungeons which got stale very fast. So what did casuals do in TBC? There weren't even daily quests. They were added in 2.1. So the problem in Cata was entirely because there weren't enough normal dungeons? Cata also had easy heroics too, like Halls of Origination and Vortex Pinnacle. There were also lots of dailies, and PvP, just like in Wrath. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On August 04 2012 20:18 Brett wrote: Yes, way off base because I've cleared all raid content in this game, being everything from Naxx 40m to DS HM/Heroics, when it was relevant. Way off base because you're assigning arguments to me that I didn't make. But keep spewing nonsense, friend. These are arguments that continually get made. Just read this thread. When's the last time you saw someone from a world first guild complaining that WoW is too easy? But the question of whether or not WoW is too easy, is not the question of whether or not you personally find WoW too easy, but rather a question about the stats on how long it takes for heroic raid content to be cleared. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On August 04 2012 20:31 paralleluniverse wrote: These are arguments that continually get made. Just read this thread. When's the last time you saw someone from a world first guild complaining that WoW is too easy? But the question of whether or not WoW is too easy, is not the question of whether or not you personally find WoW too easy, but rather a question about the stats on how long it takes for heroic raid content to be cleared. High end raiding only get more and more complex each xpac. | ||
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HypernovA
Canada556 Posts
Doing the same raid twice gets really boring super fast. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On August 04 2012 20:00 paralleluniverse wrote: When were heroic dungeons harder? Vanilla had no heroics and the level 60 dungeons were quite easy. TBC had some heroics that were on par with Cata heroics (before they were nerfed), although there are only 3 hard heroics: Arcatraz, Shattered Halls (probably hardest heroic dungeon ever) and Magister's Terrance, while nearly all of the Cata heroics were about this difficulty (before nerf). Nothing for casuals to do? Again, how is this any different from previous expansions. The whole game is just heroics, raids, dailies and PvP. So if people were fine with this in the past, what's changed? The idea of easy and hard content coexisting isn't new. WoW already has easy and hard content at the moment. As you put it, the problem is casuals. They either can't get into a raid guild to raid, or can't commit to the raiding schedule. So they require 5 man content. If the 5 man content is too hard, like it was in 4.0 when they were mass complaining, they will quit. So what MoP does is keep heroics easy, as they currently are, but add challenge modes that do not reward gear so that casuals don't feel obligated to be able to beat it in record time. Some level 60 dungeons were harder than cata heroics. At least up until they wered nerfed (patch 1.7? I forget exactly). Scholomance in particular was harder than any cata heroic. TBC heroics were not in the same league as cata heroics. Pre-nerf TBC heroic trash mobs would one shot most non-tanks. Many of the hardest hitting mobs were non-controllable. How long did it take you to do the Nightbane questline in Sethekk halls? because the week after TBC launch we spent hours on it, fully flasked and elixired up and adjusting tactics until we finally got it. The boss was crazy. Ofcourse after all the nerfs it did become easy. Oh, and fwiw, Shattered Halls was not the hardest: it was just nerfed the least. Sethekk, Arcatraz and Black Morass were all a lot harder. Personally I thought the Cata 5 mans were spot on difficulty wise. They were much easier than TBC but harder than wotlk. They were easy enough with a premade group. The big thing that changed in Cata relly was LFD. I do not think I ever pugged a 5 man in vanilla or TBC because most non-guild players were just not as good at the game. Additionally, I see no reason why we cannot have 5 or more different difficulty levels. Since pve gear is not really used for pvp it does not hurt to give people slightly better gear for doing harder versions as that gear is only needed for said harder versions anyway. It would give us more progression and make content last longer. | ||
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Misca
Netherlands605 Posts
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On August 05 2012 00:00 hzflank wrote: Some level 60 dungeons were harder than cata heroics. At least up until they wered nerfed (patch 1.7? I forget exactly). Scholomance in particular was harder than any cata heroic. TBC heroics were not in the same league as cata heroics. Pre-nerf TBC heroic trash mobs would one shot most non-tanks. Many of the hardest hitting mobs were non-controllable. How long did it take you to do the Nightbane questline in Sethekk halls? because the week after TBC launch we spent hours on it, fully flasked and elixired up and adjusting tactics until we finally got it. The boss was crazy. Ofcourse after all the nerfs it did become easy. Oh, and fwiw, Shattered Halls was not the hardest: it was just nerfed the least. Sethekk, Arcatraz and Black Morass were all a lot harder. Personally I thought the Cata 5 mans were spot on difficulty wise. They were much easier than TBC but harder than wotlk. They were easy enough with a premade group. The big thing that changed in Cata relly was LFD. I do not think I ever pugged a 5 man in vanilla or TBC because most non-guild players were just not as good at the game. Additionally, I see no reason why we cannot have 5 or more different difficulty levels. Since pve gear is not really used for pvp it does not hurt to give people slightly better gear for doing harder versions as that gear is only needed for said harder versions anyway. It would give us more progression and make content last longer. I don't get people saying do heroic raids. Doing the same raid FIVE times gets really boring super fast. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On August 04 2012 23:49 HypernovA wrote: I don't get people saying do heroic raids. Doing the same raid twice gets really boring super fast. That's not the way I see it. We clear normal in the first week, and heroic modes is the main content. If during progression we haven't progressed far enough to beat the boss on heroic we do it on normal as a consolation, so it doesn't feel like 2 bosses. It's one boss that is cleared once a week. I'd say that this is how most progression raiding guilds see it. If your guild has a long struggle with a boss on normal, than has another long struggle on heroic, I can see why you might feel differently. | ||
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HypernovA
Canada556 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:00 paralleluniverse wrote: That's not the way I see it. We clear normal in the first week, and heroic modes is the main content. If during progression we haven't progressed far enough to beat the boss on heroic we do it on normal as a consolation, so it doesn't feel like 2 bosses. It's one boss that is cleared once a week. I'd say that this is how most progression raiding guilds see it. If your guild has a long struggle with a boss on normal, than has another long struggle on heroic, I can see why you might feel differently. I don't like seeing the same boss again. It doesn't feel any different than the normal modes apart from that fact that its harder and the boss has a couple of new mechanics. I dunno, I'm the type of gamer who plays through a game once and will replay the game on a harder difficult if I can import all my old stuff. I tend to do this only in really amazing good single player RPG but I can't find myself to do this in online games. I do believe that a combination of being a raid leader for a long time and having a ton of bad players to carry through heroics kinda wears you down after a while (I remember trying to do heroic Lich King for months on end). I stil prefer the Ulduar method of hard modes. I felt that doing forcibly different in order to activate the hard mode felt that the boss was different. It felt much better and much more immersive as an experience rather than just flipping a switch to heroic mode and seeing the boss's HP go up from 100m to 150m. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
We (the players) consume content much faster than the developers create it. Having multiple difficulties gives us something to do. I only played Cata in 4.0, but when I played it took my average guild several weeks to get through the normal mode raids. That added several weeks of content for us. Having no progression content is boring for me, as I have always raided on a set schedule (I have never gone crazy in pursuit of world firsts etc). If I wanted to finish a game then I would play single player rpgs. I want my mmo to be never-ending. You could make content so difficult that players do not finish it until the next content is release (late vanilla and early TBC), or you can add multiple levels of the same content (wotlk and cataclysm). But I think you really do need to do one of these, and with the new model you need extra difficulty levels because too many people are finishing he content too quickly and being left with nothing to do. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:40 hzflank wrote: The problem is that the only good alternative to heroic raids is to simply have some really really hard raid zones. We (the players) consume content much faster than the developers create it. Having multiple difficulties gives us something to do. I only played Cata in 4.0, but when I played it took my average guild several weeks to get through the normal mode raids. That added several weeks of content for us. Having no progression content is boring for me, as I have always raided on a set schedule (I have never gone crazy in pursuit of world firsts etc). If I wanted to finish a game then I would play single player rpgs. I want my mmo to be never-ending. You could make content so difficult that players do not finish it until the next content is release (late vanilla and early TBC), or you can add multiple levels of the same content (wotlk and cataclysm). But I think you really do need to do one of these, and with the new model you need extra difficulty levels because too many people are finishing he content too quickly and being left with nothing to do. Get real. Nearly everyone has still yet to finished T11, 2 years on. http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier11 | ||
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snarl
Canada812 Posts
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