On July 26 2012 07:00 Copymizer wrote: I haven't played since 2-3months after cataclysm where i found out what direction blizzard has been taking with wow. It's casual now it feels like a single player the leveling is no longer any challenge everything is being guided and given to you. People are standing in city 24/7 on LFR and LFD pressing a button to be TP'd to dungeoun play with 4 strangers that'll probably rage quit after 1st wipe and knowing you wont see them again they will ditch you.
The game has become a shadow of it's former glory TBC as i remember it. When there was an actually community on the server when people were out doing something, you had to be social and gather a group for that hard elite quests, so many aspects world pvp too. There was a time when gearing up for normal to heroic, kara, SSC, TK, MH and BT and getting your gear to get up there was challenging. All these guild perks too have made it way too easy. This vid sums it up well for me.
TBC raiding was all about going to the moon, not because of the loot, not because it was easy, not because of e-dicks. It was all about it being a challenge, not just as boss fights, but as organisation, team, community, friendship and love and supporting each other and learning together and doing and re-doing and perfecting.. Look at WoW now, where is the love? Where is the friendship and server pride and guild pride and community? Where are these things that made TBC an adventure to be shared?
For all my WoW vets out there. I think we can all agree with this video. I hope Blizzard proves me wrong though
In case you haven't realized, WoW as harder than ever. Both T11 and T12 were probably the hardest tier of raids ever made.
The video says that it took 4 months before Kael'thas was defeated. But TBC launched with 2 raid tiers, not 1.
In fact, we if we compare this to Ulduar, released in WotLK (what people where never involved in progression raiding claims when WoW was dumbed down for the masses), Yogg-0 wasn't cleared until 3 months after patch 3.1. That's 3 whole months on a single tier before the world first kill.
The fact that raiders are not specials and that progression raiding in WoW is now easy is simply false. The people who do these heroic raids have the best gear, the special mounts for the meta-achievements, and are high-regarded in the community.
Ulduar was the only good instance Blizzard has brought out after WotLK was released because you had to fight your way through to see content rather than have it given to you.
People say that "Hardcore Raiders" are irrational, but I am willing to accept that Blizzard have done thing right in the past. As a Casual, I had my most fun during BC and when naxxramas was released the game died for me (Besides ulduar, that was a good instance).
Theres 0 reason to raid for me now once I clear it on LFR (Which I did on the first days they were released). You could argue "Join a hardcore guild" but I've already seen the content, theres no reason to even try now. I do like to play for a challenge, but doing LFR and then transitioning into hard mode is equivalent to playing through Resident evil on Easy and then playing it again on hard afterwards. It's incredibly boring!
Status, epeen, challenge and guild
That's why you should do hard modes.
That's not enough dude, I want new things to do in the game all the time and you always had that feeling in BC. EPEEN hardly exists anymore, and as a casual player I couldn't give a shit about players with better gear than me now. Everyone wears the same gear now (And if you have higher tier it basically looks the same)
Guild members.... They are the only reason I would keep playing, but that's no excuse for Blizzard to keep releasing bad content.
Do you really think TBC had more things to do than WoW has now? Consider that nothing in TBC was removed.
Daily quests were created in TBC, daily quests are still here, rep grinds existed back then, rep grinds still exist. BGs and arenas existed in TBC, there are still BGs and arenas. In addition, there are now more dailies than before, more BGs, there's transmog, which gives you an incentive to do old content. And of course there's heroic dungeons and raids.
You say that epeen doesn't matter, and then you say that everyone wears the same gear. So does gear matter or not? It's not true that everyone is in the same gear, most people can't even do normal raids, despite the fact that they are extremely easy, and heroic geared raiders have gear that is a full tier above normal raiders. Heroic raiders have far superior gear to the rest of the playerbase.
You can tell someone is a highly successful heroic raider firstly from the guild name, the guild name itself is a huge status symbol, being in the best guild on the server means you're one of the best on the server. Then there's the gear (or ilvl or gearscore), the achievements, the special mounts that non-raiders can't get, and the fact that they're doing 1.5 to 2 times more DPS than the next guy on the damage meters in a PUG.
Epeen does matter. And I can spot a large epeen from a mile away.
Eh, the volume of content might be the same, but the fact that everything is so stupidly accessible including the fact that the next tier makes the last tier completely obsolete makes it such that there is little INCENTIVE to go out and do stuff.
How many people in LFR actually have any sort of regular mode DS gear on them? Yes there's a bit of an incentive - unfortunately recoloured gear with Heroic stamped on them and a fancy mount isn't enough for most of the WoW population to even bother with normal, let alone heroic.
Arenas - same problem with dungeons. Remember when even buying the PvP gear required a certain Arena rating? How hard you tried to get that extra 50 rating to buy that 1700 chest or 1850 weapon? You buy the entire current PvP set eventually in this system, and with only 2200 rating to look forward to just to get a set recolour and upgraded weapons. I used to hate arena, but would end up playing 3 hours of it when I got close to a certain rating anyways. This all adds up. Transmog gear is pretty much the same - you speed clear a raid in 1 hour for transmog stuff and then you're done for the week.
People want gear as the main incentive to do things in WoW and get better. Transmogs, mounts and other vanity items don't really work that well. This is why people have stopped doing Firelands (except for Staff and guilds with people who want the mount) and Tier 11.
The effect snowballs. Trying to squeeze more content out with alts is terribly ineffective. Nerfed zones/experience made the alt experience bad enough. Now alts get done with in 3 weeks instead of 3 months. Many people these days get to 85, buy BoE PvP gear (that they so kindly ilvl buff every raid tier), skip all the lower Cataclysm heroics and do Hour of Twilight heroics (that pretty much clear themselves) to go straight back into LFR DS and regular DS? Would you level a character in say, Diablo 3 and then have it go straight to Act 4 Inferno at level 60 and do the same act for the next 7 months because Act 1-3 dropped worse gear? And that brings us back to not having anything to do.
WoTLK was terribly easy and bad compared to TBC. But the fact that some of the content was not so easily accessible (Ulduar 25man/other hard modes) and that the old gear wasn't completely replaced by the next tier (TOC GDKPs in ICC patch anyone?) meant there was tons more to do than in Cataclysm. TBC was a better version of that because of the difficulty level which increased the time spent working on a particular thing. But I'm willing to settle for WoLTK difficulty.
I don't have high hopes for Blizzard, but I do hope they have a couple of incentives in mind for us to work towards in MoP that aren't just collecting LFR gear and the recoloured versions of it.
I'd be wary of Blizzard rumors or announcements too. What happened to our underwater instance promised in Cataclysm?
And yeah - it does feel more single playerish. Before, I had tons to do with my friend's levelling character but once it got to 80 and into the Cataclysm zones, there was nothing I could do with that character outside of the same boring dungeons. You can sort of see the direction they're taking. Cataclysm is pretty much a solo levelling affair minus the Ring of Blood quest. Then they removed Elites from the entire game that didn't have some sort of gimmick to killing them (i.e with a vehicle/buff/NPC help etc). Anyone enjoy watching the 12k hp Durn the Hungerer walk around Oshu'gun in Nagrand like some kind of twisted joke?
So you argue that the content is too easy and accessible, while at the same time acknowledging that a lot of it, even it WotLK, is also very hard?
Yes, that's right. WoW has very easy content, and very hard content.
That's the fucking point: content for everyone.
There's content for mouse-clicking, keyboard turning noobs, and there's content for world first progression raiding guilds.
IIRC it took 4 months for people to clear DS 10man heroic on the new brazilian non-transfer server(Tol Barad). Notice that the server was full of very experienced players that cleared the raid months before.
I didnt Raid in cata, after WOTLK came out and I beat all the first bosses I quit, came back to kill Heroic Anub, quit, leveled to 85 in cata and stopped again.
WoW's balance and gameplay model seems so stale now.
On July 26 2012 07:00 Copymizer wrote: I haven't played since 2-3months after cataclysm where i found out what direction blizzard has been taking with wow. It's casual now it feels like a single player the leveling is no longer any challenge everything is being guided and given to you. People are standing in city 24/7 on LFR and LFD pressing a button to be TP'd to dungeoun play with 4 strangers that'll probably rage quit after 1st wipe and knowing you wont see them again they will ditch you.
The game has become a shadow of it's former glory TBC as i remember it. When there was an actually community on the server when people were out doing something, you had to be social and gather a group for that hard elite quests, so many aspects world pvp too. There was a time when gearing up for normal to heroic, kara, SSC, TK, MH and BT and getting your gear to get up there was challenging. All these guild perks too have made it way too easy. This vid sums it up well for me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo
TBC raiding was all about going to the moon, not because of the loot, not because it was easy, not because of e-dicks. It was all about it being a challenge, not just as boss fights, but as organisation, team, community, friendship and love and supporting each other and learning together and doing and re-doing and perfecting.. Look at WoW now, where is the love? Where is the friendship and server pride and guild pride and community? Where are these things that made TBC an adventure to be shared?
The difference between now and then is MILES. Fucking worlds apart. This is coming from someone who raided at top 30 world, top 10 US level until half way through sunwell, and now raids in a top 15 US, top 100 world guild,. That video is a pretty accurate description of the problem with their 'everyone gets everything' approach.
These days nearly everyone (and their alt/s) is in the same gear as me, has the same mounts as me and I dare say that the majority of the server has no fucking idea who I am, who is actually in my guild, who raids, who is an alt and so on. There is no interaction with the world, no interaction with the player base, and a significantly reduced sense of achievement/wonder/community.
On July 26 2012 07:00 Copymizer wrote: I haven't played since 2-3months after cataclysm where i found out what direction blizzard has been taking with wow. It's casual now it feels like a single player the leveling is no longer any challenge everything is being guided and given to you. People are standing in city 24/7 on LFR and LFD pressing a button to be TP'd to dungeoun play with 4 strangers that'll probably rage quit after 1st wipe and knowing you wont see them again they will ditch you.
The game has become a shadow of it's former glory TBC as i remember it. When there was an actually community on the server when people were out doing something, you had to be social and gather a group for that hard elite quests, so many aspects world pvp too. There was a time when gearing up for normal to heroic, kara, SSC, TK, MH and BT and getting your gear to get up there was challenging. All these guild perks too have made it way too easy. This vid sums it up well for me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo
TBC raiding was all about going to the moon, not because of the loot, not because it was easy, not because of e-dicks. It was all about it being a challenge, not just as boss fights, but as organisation, team, community, friendship and love and supporting each other and learning together and doing and re-doing and perfecting.. Look at WoW now, where is the love? Where is the friendship and server pride and guild pride and community? Where are these things that made TBC an adventure to be shared?
On July 26 2012 07:00 Copymizer wrote: I haven't played since 2-3months after cataclysm where i found out what direction blizzard has been taking with wow. It's casual now it feels like a single player the leveling is no longer any challenge everything is being guided and given to you. People are standing in city 24/7 on LFR and LFD pressing a button to be TP'd to dungeoun play with 4 strangers that'll probably rage quit after 1st wipe and knowing you wont see them again they will ditch you.
The game has become a shadow of it's former glory TBC as i remember it. When there was an actually community on the server when people were out doing something, you had to be social and gather a group for that hard elite quests, so many aspects world pvp too. There was a time when gearing up for normal to heroic, kara, SSC, TK, MH and BT and getting your gear to get up there was challenging. All these guild perks too have made it way too easy. This vid sums it up well for me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo
TBC raiding was all about going to the moon, not because of the loot, not because it was easy, not because of e-dicks. It was all about it being a challenge, not just as boss fights, but as organisation, team, community, friendship and love and supporting each other and learning together and doing and re-doing and perfecting.. Look at WoW now, where is the love? Where is the friendship and server pride and guild pride and community? Where are these things that made TBC an adventure to be shared?
The difference between now and then is MILES. Fucking worlds apart. This is coming from someone who raided at top 30 world, top 10 US level until half way through sunwell, and now raids in a top 15 US, top 100 world guild,. That video is a pretty accurate description of the problem with their 'everyone gets everything' approach.
These days nearly everyone (and their alt/s) is in the same gear as me, has the same mounts as me and I dare say that the majority of the server has no fucking idea who I am, who is actually in my guild, who raids, who is an alt and so on. There is no interaction with the world, no interaction with the player base, and a significantly reduced sense of achievement/wonder/community.
Well, the reason everyone has the same gear is because it's at 30% nerf. Aren't you satisfied with the date on your H Deathwing kill? Also a lot of servers have guilds selling gear/mounts/titles. My guild for example has been selling heroic rag mounts/titles and heroic DW mounts/titles for months.
On July 26 2012 07:00 Copymizer wrote: I haven't played since 2-3months after cataclysm where i found out what direction blizzard has been taking with wow. It's casual now it feels like a single player the leveling is no longer any challenge everything is being guided and given to you. People are standing in city 24/7 on LFR and LFD pressing a button to be TP'd to dungeoun play with 4 strangers that'll probably rage quit after 1st wipe and knowing you wont see them again they will ditch you.
The game has become a shadow of it's former glory TBC as i remember it. When there was an actually community on the server when people were out doing something, you had to be social and gather a group for that hard elite quests, so many aspects world pvp too. There was a time when gearing up for normal to heroic, kara, SSC, TK, MH and BT and getting your gear to get up there was challenging. All these guild perks too have made it way too easy. This vid sums it up well for me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo
TBC raiding was all about going to the moon, not because of the loot, not because it was easy, not because of e-dicks. It was all about it being a challenge, not just as boss fights, but as organisation, team, community, friendship and love and supporting each other and learning together and doing and re-doing and perfecting.. Look at WoW now, where is the love? Where is the friendship and server pride and guild pride and community? Where are these things that made TBC an adventure to be shared?
The difference between now and then is MILES. Fucking worlds apart. This is coming from someone who raided at top 30 world, top 10 US level until half way through sunwell, and now raids in a top 15 US, top 100 world guild,. That video is a pretty accurate description of the problem with their 'everyone gets everything' approach.
These days nearly everyone (and their alt/s) is in the same gear as me, has the same mounts as me and I dare say that the majority of the server has no fucking idea who I am, who is actually in my guild, who raids, who is an alt and so on. There is no interaction with the world, no interaction with the player base, and a significantly reduced sense of achievement/wonder/community.
Well, the reason everyone has the same gear is because it's at 30% nerf. Aren't you satisfied with the date on your H Deathwing kill? Also a lot of servers have guilds selling gear/mounts/titles. My guild for example has been selling heroic rag mounts/titles and heroic DW mounts/titles for months.
But that's the thing, nothing is exclusive anymore and nothing is valuable; there's nothing that requires any work from anyone anymore and it makes the game dull. The only reason I would play again is for the people.
On July 26 2012 07:00 Copymizer wrote: I haven't played since 2-3months after cataclysm where i found out what direction blizzard has been taking with wow. It's casual now it feels like a single player the leveling is no longer any challenge everything is being guided and given to you. People are standing in city 24/7 on LFR and LFD pressing a button to be TP'd to dungeoun play with 4 strangers that'll probably rage quit after 1st wipe and knowing you wont see them again they will ditch you.
The game has become a shadow of it's former glory TBC as i remember it. When there was an actually community on the server when people were out doing something, you had to be social and gather a group for that hard elite quests, so many aspects world pvp too. There was a time when gearing up for normal to heroic, kara, SSC, TK, MH and BT and getting your gear to get up there was challenging. All these guild perks too have made it way too easy. This vid sums it up well for me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo
TBC raiding was all about going to the moon, not because of the loot, not because it was easy, not because of e-dicks. It was all about it being a challenge, not just as boss fights, but as organisation, team, community, friendship and love and supporting each other and learning together and doing and re-doing and perfecting.. Look at WoW now, where is the love? Where is the friendship and server pride and guild pride and community? Where are these things that made TBC an adventure to be shared?
The difference between now and then is MILES. Fucking worlds apart. This is coming from someone who raided at top 30 world, top 10 US level until half way through sunwell, and now raids in a top 15 US, top 100 world guild,. That video is a pretty accurate description of the problem with their 'everyone gets everything' approach.
These days nearly everyone (and their alt/s) is in the same gear as me, has the same mounts as me and I dare say that the majority of the server has no fucking idea who I am, who is actually in my guild, who raids, who is an alt and so on. There is no interaction with the world, no interaction with the player base, and a significantly reduced sense of achievement/wonder/community.
Well, the reason everyone has the same gear is because it's at 30% nerf. Aren't you satisfied with the date on your H Deathwing kill? Also a lot of servers have guilds selling gear/mounts/titles. My guild for example has been selling heroic rag mounts/titles and heroic DW mounts/titles for months.
But that's the thing, nothing is exclusive anymore and nothing is valuable; there's nothing that requires any work from anyone anymore and it makes the game dull. The only reason I would play again is for the people.
Really? Pre nerf Spine took 0 work? Nothing takes work when it's nerfed to shit but pre nerfs DS was still pretty challenging.
On July 26 2012 07:00 Copymizer wrote: I haven't played since 2-3months after cataclysm where i found out what direction blizzard has been taking with wow. It's casual now it feels like a single player the leveling is no longer any challenge everything is being guided and given to you. People are standing in city 24/7 on LFR and LFD pressing a button to be TP'd to dungeoun play with 4 strangers that'll probably rage quit after 1st wipe and knowing you wont see them again they will ditch you.
The game has become a shadow of it's former glory TBC as i remember it. When there was an actually community on the server when people were out doing something, you had to be social and gather a group for that hard elite quests, so many aspects world pvp too. There was a time when gearing up for normal to heroic, kara, SSC, TK, MH and BT and getting your gear to get up there was challenging. All these guild perks too have made it way too easy. This vid sums it up well for me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo
TBC raiding was all about going to the moon, not because of the loot, not because it was easy, not because of e-dicks. It was all about it being a challenge, not just as boss fights, but as organisation, team, community, friendship and love and supporting each other and learning together and doing and re-doing and perfecting.. Look at WoW now, where is the love? Where is the friendship and server pride and guild pride and community? Where are these things that made TBC an adventure to be shared?
The difference between now and then is MILES. Fucking worlds apart. This is coming from someone who raided at top 30 world, top 10 US level until half way through sunwell, and now raids in a top 15 US, top 100 world guild,. That video is a pretty accurate description of the problem with their 'everyone gets everything' approach.
These days nearly everyone (and their alt/s) is in the same gear as me, has the same mounts as me and I dare say that the majority of the server has no fucking idea who I am, who is actually in my guild, who raids, who is an alt and so on. There is no interaction with the world, no interaction with the player base, and a significantly reduced sense of achievement/wonder/community.
Well, the reason everyone has the same gear is because it's at 30% nerf. Aren't you satisfied with the date on your H Deathwing kill? Also a lot of servers have guilds selling gear/mounts/titles. My guild for example has been selling heroic rag mounts/titles and heroic DW mounts/titles for months.
But that's the thing, nothing is exclusive anymore and nothing is valuable; there's nothing that requires any work from anyone anymore and it makes the game dull. The only reason I would play again is for the people.
Really? Pre nerf Spine took 0 work? Nothing takes work when it's nerfed to shit but pre nerfs DS was still pretty challenging.
Prenerf Spine was difficult for the wrong reasons.
Just throwing in my 2 cents. exclusivity is what made the content so desirable. Less than 1% has beaten this boss, fucking awesome let's go do it! 50% of the server has beaten this boss, oh well...who gives a shit? If everyone got a gold and diamond necklace would it still feel special to have? Blizzard tried to address what they saw as a problem and destroyed what made their game feel so special to play. Looking at the growth, the player base was quite happy with that 1%. Don't fix what isn't broken.
hmm so mop is out in late September but isnt there going to be one more raid in Cata ? I might be wrong but havent they said that we havent seen the final boss of cata yet ?
On July 26 2012 16:20 Tachion wrote: Just throwing in my 2 cents. exclusivity is what made the content so desirable. Less than 1% has beaten this boss, fucking awesome let's go do it! 50% of the server has beaten this boss, oh well...who gives a shit? If everyone got a gold and diamond necklace would it still feel special to have? Blizzard tried to address what they saw as a problem and destroyed what made their game feel so special to play. Looking at the growth, the player base was quite happy with that 1%. Don't fix what isn't broken.
To add to that.
Currently in WoW the complaint is that there isn't anything to do because all the content's been cleared whereas back in the day if you weren't in the top of the top guild there was ALWAYS content to do because you hadn't yet finished what was already available.
But these days, a fresh 85 skips right past the first two raiding tiers in Cataclysm from valor point grinding and goes right into Dragon Soul.
it's this lack of progression for each character that I think needs changing, I'm fine with normal mode raids being easier than the raids of old, I'm cool with the hard mode model.
What I don't like is Blizzards tendency to make content obsolete by introducing easily farmable gear that makes them pointless to run outside of achievements and mounts, and then guts the difficulty of the raid itself on top of that.
Compare that to TBC, where people were still running Karazhan even when Sunwell was out because they needed the gear for their new alts, in order to get themselves up to the level of running Sunwell.
It prolonged the life of content, made the game feel like there was always something to do.
Now everyone's in the same instance "Dragon Soul" and there's no point to even running any of the older raids outside of achievements and mounts, it's no wonder everyone gets bored at the end of expansions now. There's literally ONE relevant instance, when in the past there were always several.
This problem is easily correctable in Mists. Stop nerfing the content after the next tier is out, leave the difficulty of it alone. This restraint combined with the change to the valor point system should prolong the life of Mist raid content by a significant margin and bring a real sense of progression by tier back to the game.
On July 26 2012 16:47 NIIINO wrote: hmm so mop is out in late September but isnt there going to be one more raid in Cata ? I might be wrong but havent they said that we havent seen the final boss of cata yet ?
The one problem with World of Warcraft that I have always had is that forcing people to group to experience content is the most retarded thing ever and should die in a fire!
On July 26 2012 17:31 Darknat wrote: The one problem with World of Warcraft that I have always had is that forcing people to group to experience content is the most retarded thing ever and should die in a fire!
Is there any successful MMO that has done it differently?
On July 26 2012 17:31 Darknat wrote: The one problem with World of Warcraft that I have always had is that forcing people to group to experience content is the most retarded thing ever and should die in a fire!
There are plenty of single player RPGs that are infinitely more satisfying solo experiences than playing some shitty watered down version of wow content by yourself would be.
The biggest issue with WoW was the transition after TBC to WOTLK. As soon as they made huge changes (DK's, spec changes, etc etc) it created a train of balance patches.
It's almost like they thought 'Lets give [insert class here] something really cool and amazing but not test it against [other class here]'. After that EVERYONE thought they were able to moan about this or that, and blizzard started the mess that was weekly-monthly balance patches.
Going back to TBC, did anyone really mind that Druids couldn't take certain bosses? Or that Paladins where the best AOE tanks? Not really. Most people just accepted it. After TBC everyone felt that [my class] should have the best of everything, and anything it didn't have was overpowered. It's fucking retarded when you think of all the remakes (Paladin's anyone!) they had to do to attempt to fix the mess they made by adding in DK's and changing the class specs.
Alas regarding MOP, i don't think it will be any different, and therefore won't be playing.
EPT
