On July 25 2012 22:59 Embir wrote: For me WoW was killed by too big amount of tounge in cheek humour. Pop cultural references or jokes are good thing but not in overdose. It just breaks the immersion of fantasy world. The second thing that killed this game for me was queing dungeons - cross realm play take away from you the feeling of real living world with characters that you can interact with.
As for the easier accesibility of the end world content I'm fine. Not everyone is no-life nerd who spends long hours in front of monitor. I've got work, gym, books and other activities I would like to spend my time on. It was good for this game. Unfortunately immersion is completely broken ATM.
So if they removed the LFG tool and forced you to make a group via LFG chat, you'll play WoW again?
Somehow, I highly doubt whether or not you play or quit WoW depends on how you form groups, more so than the content that you do in the group. You're essentially saying that how groups are formed is more important for gameplay than the content that the group plays through.
That is a ridiculous notion.
You don't understand. In theory cross server play would allow fast and handy group forming, but there are drewbacks. If game allows cross server groups then this game becomes a lot more single player focused. You don't have to interact with the players on the same server or interact with guilds or whatever. You just push the button and voila group is formed. What is more, because players from your group are from other servers you probably wont meet them again, it breaks a feeling of interaction and living world. It almost felt like single player. When I played in WoW during Cataclysm a lot of people played alone, ignoring others - it is not exactly experience I would like to recieve from MMO. On the contrary in TBC when only meeting stones were available a lot of interaction occured thanks to forming group process. Of course dungeon finder is very practical tool and speed up game tremendously, I just think a drewback is much more single player feeling during play.
Basically proving my point.
You think how a group is formed is more important than what the group does after it is formed.
I also don't think server community is gone, there's still your guild. PUG raids (for normal mode) and GDPKs are formed over trade chat. But your luck with PUG raids and GDKPs will vary with server size,
Do you consider SC2 or DotA 2 as single player games?
On July 25 2012 22:59 Embir wrote: For me WoW was killed by too big amount of tounge in cheek humour. Pop cultural references or jokes are good thing but not in overdose. It just breaks the immersion of fantasy world. The second thing that killed this game for me was queing dungeons - cross realm play take away from you the feeling of real living world with characters that you can interact with.
As for the easier accesibility of the end world content I'm fine. Not everyone is no-life nerd who spends long hours in front of monitor. I've got work, gym, books and other activities I would like to spend my time on. It was good for this game. Unfortunately immersion is completely broken ATM.
So if they removed the LFG tool and forced you to make a group via LFG chat, you'll play WoW again?
Somehow, I highly doubt whether or not you play or quit WoW depends on how you form groups, more so than the content that you do in the group. You're essentially saying that how groups are formed is more important for gameplay than the content that the group plays through.
That is a ridiculous notion.
You don't understand. In theory cross server play would allow fast and handy group forming, but there are drewbacks. If game allows cross server groups then this game becomes a lot more single player focused. You don't have to interact with the players on the same server or interact with guilds or whatever. You just push the button and voila group is formed. What is more, because players from your group are from other servers you probably wont meet them again, it breaks a feeling of interaction and living world. It almost felt like single player. When I played in WoW during Cataclysm a lot of people played alone, ignoring others - it is not exactly experience I would like to recieve from MMO. On the contrary in TBC when only meeting stones were available a lot of interaction occured thanks to forming group process. Of course dungeon finder is very practical tool and speed up game tremendously, I just think a drewback is much more single player feeling during play.
Basically proving my point.
You think how a group is formed is more important than what the group does after it is formed.
I also don't think server community is gone, there's still your guild. PUG raids (for normal mode) and GDPKs are formed over trade chat. But your luck with PUG raids and GDKPs will vary with server size,
Do you consider SC2 or DotA 2 as single player games?
Whether the server community is gone or not, it has DEFINITELY diminish. You can not argue that it has gotten better. The need to interact with people on your server is definitely not the same has it once was. Sure there are guild, but you dont really have to rely on it anymore. You can just simply que for cross server dungeon. It has come to the point that having a guild or interacting with people on the server isnt a necesscity. Which is what he is saying and I have to say I agree. An MMO that doesnt require you to interact with people around you, is it really an MMO? (of course if you are doing the highest lvl dungeon and stuff then that is an exemption since it require alot of coordination and a guild is generally require)
SC2 and Dota 2 is different game. They are not MMORPG. They are more like chess where once the game is over you put the pieces back on the board and replay.
On July 25 2012 22:59 Embir wrote: For me WoW was killed by too big amount of tounge in cheek humour. Pop cultural references or jokes are good thing but not in overdose. It just breaks the immersion of fantasy world. The second thing that killed this game for me was queing dungeons - cross realm play take away from you the feeling of real living world with characters that you can interact with.
As for the easier accesibility of the end world content I'm fine. Not everyone is no-life nerd who spends long hours in front of monitor. I've got work, gym, books and other activities I would like to spend my time on. It was good for this game. Unfortunately immersion is completely broken ATM.
So if they removed the LFG tool and forced you to make a group via LFG chat, you'll play WoW again?
Somehow, I highly doubt whether or not you play or quit WoW depends on how you form groups, more so than the content that you do in the group. You're essentially saying that how groups are formed is more important for gameplay than the content that the group plays through.
That is a ridiculous notion.
You don't understand. In theory cross server play would allow fast and handy group forming, but there are drewbacks. If game allows cross server groups then this game becomes a lot more single player focused. You don't have to interact with the players on the same server or interact with guilds or whatever. You just push the button and voila group is formed. What is more, because players from your group are from other servers you probably wont meet them again, it breaks a feeling of interaction and living world. It almost felt like single player. When I played in WoW during Cataclysm a lot of people played alone, ignoring others - it is not exactly experience I would like to recieve from MMO. On the contrary in TBC when only meeting stones were available a lot of interaction occured thanks to forming group process. Of course dungeon finder is very practical tool and speed up game tremendously, I just think a drewback is much more single player feeling during play.
Basically proving my point.
You think how a group is formed is more important than what the group does after it is formed.
I also don't think server community is gone, there's still your guild. PUG raids (for normal mode) and GDPKs are formed over trade chat. But your luck with PUG raids and GDKPs will vary with server size,
Do you consider SC2 or DotA 2 as single player games?
Whether the server community is gone or not, it has DEFINITELY diminish. You can not argue that it has gotten better. The need to interact with people on your server is definitely not the same has it once was. Sure there are guild, but you dont really have to rely on it anymore. You can just simply que for cross server dungeon. It has come to the point that having a guild or interacting with people on the server isnt a necesscity. Which is what he is saying and I have to say I agree. An MMO that doesnt require you to interact with people around you, is it really an MMO? (of course if you are doing the highest lvl dungeon and stuff then that is an exemption since it require alot of coordination and a guild is generally require)
SC2 and Dota 2 is different game. They are not MMORPG. They are more like chess where once the game is over you put the pieces back on the board and replay.
The point is that in SC2 and Dota 2 and LFG/LFR you meet random people who you will never see again. Because of this the poster argues WoW is like a single player game. Then so is SC2 and Dota 2. The fact that WoW is a MMO doesn't matter, his complaint is the lack of persistent interaction with other players, not the label given to the genre.
It's not a bad thing that it's easier for a group to do heroics and easy mode raids. It could be quite difficult to form a group before these systems, particularly on low population servers or during off-hours.
Two arguments I would never make is that server community has gotten better, because it hasn't. And that it's still possible to form a heroic dungeon group manually (one of Blizzard's favorite arguments), which is out of touch with how players actually play the game. While, yes, server community is diminished, this is still an argument about how you form a group, instead of what the group does after it forms, which is clearly far more important. He quit WoW because getting into a group was too easy, such that he didn't see enough familiar names in his groups. This is still a ridiculously inane reason to quit.
For any content that's worth a damn, like challenge modes, normal and heroic raids you still have to rely on your server or guild. I suggest that you both visit your server forum more often, people still run normal mode raids, easy heroic raids, alt runs, GDKPs, trades, etc.
The impression I get from MoP is that of a "reboot". There is no "bad guy" because that's how it worked on pre-BC wow: there was no "final boss" defined at the beginning of the expansion(like Illidan, Arthas or Deathwing). I like this.
On July 26 2012 04:00 DeadBull wrote: Has anyone else this feeling like he's kinda not "finished" with WoW? I might get back into it for the last expansion
Even after having posted that... kinda, yeah. I mean, everyone quit, played SC2, D3, LoL. Now D3 is kinda over, my group of friends is getting more and more busy (thus casual).
Maybe I WILL play the pokemon expansion, just to play with the super casual friends and girls I haven't been gaming with lately.
If they find a way to make the server communities what they once were, I'll come back in a heartbeat. I guess I am in the minority, but having to find a healer or tank (never had to do much of that after switching from my hunter a million years ago. Prot Paladin for the win son!) from your own server created an opportunity for you to socialize and make new friends. I agree that it feels like a single player game when you are not running a dungeon. It's a real bummer.
Inb4 nostalgia or rose colored glasses. Older WoW really WAS better in a few key ways.
Yeah i guess a good thing to draw people into wow is that ANYONE can play, you dont need 100APM like in SC2 you just need a brain a keyboard and a mouse xD
I'm still undecided as to whether or not I'll buy it. I've been unsubscribed since March but I've been keeping up with marginal amounts of news from the beta and I know I'd probably enjoy it for a little while. However, it's just become difficult for me to take Blizzard at their word in terms of what they promise for Mists when I consider what they said before Cataclysm launched. I'm mostly referring to the fact that from Blizzcon 2009 right up until Cata's launch, the big selling points of the expansion were that it was to include "more raid content than ever before", which is a direct quote incidentally, and faster and more regular content patches. Cataclysm failed miserably to deliver on both these fronts, yet once again the devs have promised engaging high-level content as well as more frequent content patches.
I want to have faith that Blizzard will uphold these points, but it is difficult for me take their word for it particularly because the promises are identical to those of Cataclysm, and look how well that turned out. I'm well aware that Blizzard has never been one to rush its products, but as of late I just don't think they can justify the length of their patch cycles since the ICC patch in December 2009. For a subscription-based game, I personally don't think that one content patch every ~7-8 months on average is acceptable by any stretch of the imagination, but of course others probably disagree.
Cataclysm content patches have been so meagre, yet they've had to last a very long time. Just looking back at 2009, when Blizzard released Ulduar in mid April, ToC in early August, and ICC in December, that is a cycle that I'd grown to expect with Cataclysm based on Blizzard's pre-release claims. In fact, I'd go as far to say that ToC was released too early into Ulduar's lifespan, just as I think Black Temple was released too early in The Burning Crusade.
Now that they're promising the same thing with Mists after the debacle that was Cataclysm content patches, I'm just a lot more skeptical.
On July 25 2012 22:59 Embir wrote: For me WoW was killed by too big amount of tounge in cheek humour. Pop cultural references or jokes are good thing but not in overdose. It just breaks the immersion of fantasy world. The second thing that killed this game for me was queing dungeons - cross realm play take away from you the feeling of real living world with characters that you can interact with.
As for the easier accesibility of the end world content I'm fine. Not everyone is no-life nerd who spends long hours in front of monitor. I've got work, gym, books and other activities I would like to spend my time on. It was good for this game. Unfortunately immersion is completely broken ATM.
So if they removed the LFG tool and forced you to make a group via LFG chat, you'll play WoW again?
Somehow, I highly doubt whether or not you play or quit WoW depends on how you form groups, more so than the content that you do in the group. You're essentially saying that how groups are formed is more important for gameplay than the content that the group plays through.
That is a ridiculous notion.
You don't understand. In theory cross server play would allow fast and handy group forming, but there are drewbacks. If game allows cross server groups then this game becomes a lot more single player focused. You don't have to interact with the players on the same server or interact with guilds or whatever. You just push the button and voila group is formed. What is more, because players from your group are from other servers you probably wont meet them again, it breaks a feeling of interaction and living world. It almost felt like single player. When I played in WoW during Cataclysm a lot of people played alone, ignoring others - it is not exactly experience I would like to recieve from MMO. On the contrary in TBC when only meeting stones were available a lot of interaction occured thanks to forming group process. Of course dungeon finder is very practical tool and speed up game tremendously, I just think a drewback is much more single player feeling during play.
Basically proving my point.
You think how a group is formed is more important than what the group does after it is formed.
I also don't think server community is gone, there's still your guild. PUG raids (for normal mode) and GDPKs are formed over trade chat. But your luck with PUG raids and GDKPs will vary with server size,
Do you consider SC2 or DotA 2 as single player games?
Whether the server community is gone or not, it has DEFINITELY diminish. You can not argue that it has gotten better. The need to interact with people on your server is definitely not the same has it once was. Sure there are guild, but you dont really have to rely on it anymore. You can just simply que for cross server dungeon. It has come to the point that having a guild or interacting with people on the server isnt a necesscity. Which is what he is saying and I have to say I agree. An MMO that doesnt require you to interact with people around you, is it really an MMO? (of course if you are doing the highest lvl dungeon and stuff then that is an exemption since it require alot of coordination and a guild is generally require)
SC2 and Dota 2 is different game. They are not MMORPG. They are more like chess where once the game is over you put the pieces back on the board and replay.
The point is that in SC2 and Dota 2 and LFG/LFR you meet random people who you will never see again. Because of this the poster argues WoW is like a single player game. Then so is SC2 and Dota 2. The fact that WoW is a MMO doesn't matter, his complaint is the lack of persistent interaction with other players, not the label given to the genre.
It's not a bad thing that it's easier for a group to do heroics and easy mode raids. It could be quite difficult to form a group before these systems, particularly on low population servers or during off-hours.
Two arguments I would never make is that server community has gotten better, because it hasn't. And that it's still possible to form a heroic dungeon group manually (one of Blizzard's favorite arguments), which is out of touch with how players actually play the game. While, yes, server community is diminished, this is still an argument about how you form a group, instead of what the group does after it forms, which is clearly far more important. He quit WoW because getting into a group was too easy, such that he didn't see enough familiar names in his groups. This is still a ridiculously inane reason to quit.
For any content that's worth a damn, like challenge modes, normal and heroic raids you still have to rely on your server or guild. I suggest that you both visit your server forum more often, people still run normal mode raids, easy heroic raids, alt runs, GDKPs, trades, etc.
Maybe I expressed my thoughts wrong. I was talking about interaction with other players in context of WoW game genre - and it is MMORPG, no less. I would say WoW definetly is multiplayer game, but there is no immersion, no feeling of playing in living virtual world, where you meet up friends avatars, and where you go through wondrous adventures. It just became a normal multiplayer game, like Quake or SC2, not worth subscription IMO.
Of course all of those updates might very well be necessity to sustain game, but for me it killed WoW magic.
On July 25 2012 22:59 Embir wrote: For me WoW was killed by too big amount of tounge in cheek humour. Pop cultural references or jokes are good thing but not in overdose. It just breaks the immersion of fantasy world. The second thing that killed this game for me was queing dungeons - cross realm play take away from you the feeling of real living world with characters that you can interact with.
As for the easier accesibility of the end world content I'm fine. Not everyone is no-life nerd who spends long hours in front of monitor. I've got work, gym, books and other activities I would like to spend my time on. It was good for this game. Unfortunately immersion is completely broken ATM.
So if they removed the LFG tool and forced you to make a group via LFG chat, you'll play WoW again?
Somehow, I highly doubt whether or not you play or quit WoW depends on how you form groups, more so than the content that you do in the group. You're essentially saying that how groups are formed is more important for gameplay than the content that the group plays through.
That is a ridiculous notion.
You don't understand. In theory cross server play would allow fast and handy group forming, but there are drewbacks. If game allows cross server groups then this game becomes a lot more single player focused. You don't have to interact with the players on the same server or interact with guilds or whatever. You just push the button and voila group is formed. What is more, because players from your group are from other servers you probably wont meet them again, it breaks a feeling of interaction and living world. It almost felt like single player. When I played in WoW during Cataclysm a lot of people played alone, ignoring others - it is not exactly experience I would like to recieve from MMO. On the contrary in TBC when only meeting stones were available a lot of interaction occured thanks to forming group process. Of course dungeon finder is very practical tool and speed up game tremendously, I just think a drewback is much more single player feeling during play.
Basically proving my point.
You think how a group is formed is more important than what the group does after it is formed.
I also don't think server community is gone, there's still your guild. PUG raids (for normal mode) and GDPKs are formed over trade chat. But your luck with PUG raids and GDKPs will vary with server size,
Do you consider SC2 or DotA 2 as single player games?
Whether the server community is gone or not, it has DEFINITELY diminish. You can not argue that it has gotten better. The need to interact with people on your server is definitely not the same has it once was. Sure there are guild, but you dont really have to rely on it anymore. You can just simply que for cross server dungeon. It has come to the point that having a guild or interacting with people on the server isnt a necesscity. Which is what he is saying and I have to say I agree. An MMO that doesnt require you to interact with people around you, is it really an MMO? (of course if you are doing the highest lvl dungeon and stuff then that is an exemption since it require alot of coordination and a guild is generally require)
SC2 and Dota 2 is different game. They are not MMORPG. They are more like chess where once the game is over you put the pieces back on the board and replay.
The point is that in SC2 and Dota 2 and LFG/LFR you meet random people who you will never see again. Because of this the poster argues WoW is like a single player game. Then so is SC2 and Dota 2. The fact that WoW is a MMO doesn't matter, his complaint is the lack of persistent interaction with other players, not the label given to the genre.
It's not a bad thing that it's easier for a group to do heroics and easy mode raids. It could be quite difficult to form a group before these systems, particularly on low population servers or during off-hours.
Two arguments I would never make is that server community has gotten better, because it hasn't. And that it's still possible to form a heroic dungeon group manually (one of Blizzard's favorite arguments), which is out of touch with how players actually play the game. While, yes, server community is diminished, this is still an argument about how you form a group, instead of what the group does after it forms, which is clearly far more important. He quit WoW because getting into a group was too easy, such that he didn't see enough familiar names in his groups. This is still a ridiculously inane reason to quit.
For any content that's worth a damn, like challenge modes, normal and heroic raids you still have to rely on your server or guild. I suggest that you both visit your server forum more often, people still run normal mode raids, easy heroic raids, alt runs, GDKPs, trades, etc.
Maybe I expressed my thoughts wrong. I was talking about interaction with other players in context of WoW game genre - and it is MMORPG, no less. I would say WoW definetly is multiplayer game, but there is no immersion, no feeling of playing in living virtual world, where you meet up friends avatars, and where you go through wondrous adventures. It just became a normal multiplayer game, like Quake or SC2, not worth subscription IMO.
Of course all of those updates might very well be necessity to sustain game, but for me it killed WoW magic.
Exactly the same for me. They alienated a minority to draw in the majority. It sucks, but that's business for you.
On July 26 2012 03:44 Crownlol wrote: Yeah, jumped the shark.
Who's even the bad guy? What's the conflict? What the actual hell?
The conflict is between the Alliance and Horde mainly with some content on the side involving the Sha on Pandaria that'll be revealed via questing.
In other words they are using a similar approach that they used in Classic.
Which is the right way to go about it imo, stir up the PvP hatred, then u can add as many raid bosses as you want as you have a free table and no clear "well in 1year we need to have the LK/DeathWing fight out and ready. xD
For all my WoW vets out there. I think we can all agree with this video. I hope Blizzard proves me wrong though
In case you haven't realized, WoW as harder than ever. Both T11 and T12 were probably the hardest tier of raids ever made.
The video says that it took 4 months before Kael'thas was defeated. But TBC launched with 2 raid tiers, not 1.
In fact, we if we compare this to Ulduar, released in WotLK (what people where never involved in progression raiding claims when WoW was dumbed down for the masses), Yogg-0 wasn't cleared until 3 months after patch 3.1. That's 3 whole months on a single tier before the world first kill.
The fact that raiders are not specials and that progression raiding in WoW is now easy is simply false. The people who do these heroic raids have the best gear, the special mounts for the meta-achievements, and are high-regarded in the community.
Ulduar was the only good instance Blizzard has brought out after WotLK was released because you had to fight your way through to see content rather than have it given to you.
People say that "Hardcore Raiders" are irrational, but I am willing to accept that Blizzard have done thing right in the past. As a Casual, I had my most fun during BC and when naxxramas was released the game died for me (Besides ulduar, that was a good instance).
Theres 0 reason to raid for me now once I clear it on LFR (Which I did on the first days they were released). You could argue "Join a hardcore guild" but I've already seen the content, theres no reason to even try now. I do like to play for a challenge, but doing LFR and then transitioning into hard mode is equivalent to playing through Resident evil on Easy and then playing it again on hard afterwards. It's incredibly boring!
Status, epeen, challenge and guild
That's why you should do hard modes.
That's not enough dude, I want new things to do in the game all the time and you always had that feeling in BC. EPEEN hardly exists anymore, and as a casual player I couldn't give a shit about players with better gear than me now. Everyone wears the same gear now (And if you have higher tier it basically looks the same)
Guild members.... They are the only reason I would keep playing, but that's no excuse for Blizzard to keep releasing bad content.
Do you really think TBC had more things to do than WoW has now? Consider that nothing in TBC was removed.
Daily quests were created in TBC, daily quests are still here, rep grinds existed back then, rep grinds still exist. BGs and arenas existed in TBC, there are still BGs and arenas. In addition, there are now more dailies than before, more BGs, there's transmog, which gives you an incentive to do old content. And of course there's heroic dungeons and raids.
You say that epeen doesn't matter, and then you say that everyone wears the same gear. So does gear matter or not? It's not true that everyone is in the same gear, most people can't even do normal raids, despite the fact that they are extremely easy, and heroic geared raiders have gear that is a full tier above normal raiders. Heroic raiders have far superior gear to the rest of the playerbase.
You can tell someone is a highly successful heroic raider firstly from the guild name, the guild name itself is a huge status symbol, being in the best guild on the server means you're one of the best on the server. Then there's the gear (or ilvl or gearscore), the achievements, the special mounts that non-raiders can't get, and the fact that they're doing 1.5 to 2 times more DPS than the next guy on the damage meters in a PUG.
Epeen does matter. And I can spot a large epeen from a mile away.
Eh, the volume of content might be the same, but the fact that everything is so stupidly accessible including the fact that the next tier makes the last tier completely obsolete makes it such that there is little INCENTIVE to go out and do stuff.
How many people in LFR actually have any sort of regular mode DS gear on them? Yes there's a bit of an incentive - unfortunately recoloured gear with Heroic stamped on them and a fancy mount isn't enough for most of the WoW population to even bother with normal, let alone heroic.
Arenas - same problem with dungeons. Remember when even buying the PvP gear required a certain Arena rating? How hard you tried to get that extra 50 rating to buy that 1700 chest or 1850 weapon? You buy the entire current PvP set eventually in this system, and with only 2200 rating to look forward to just to get a set recolour and upgraded weapons. I used to hate arena, but would end up playing 3 hours of it when I got close to a certain rating anyways. This all adds up. Transmog gear is pretty much the same - you speed clear a raid in 1 hour for transmog stuff and then you're done for the week.
People want gear as the main incentive to do things in WoW and get better. Transmogs, mounts and other vanity items don't really work that well. This is why people have stopped doing Firelands (except for Staff and guilds with people who want the mount) and Tier 11.
The effect snowballs. Trying to squeeze more content out with alts is terribly ineffective. Nerfed zones/experience made the alt experience bad enough. Now alts get done with in 3 weeks instead of 3 months. Many people these days get to 85, buy BoE PvP gear (that they so kindly ilvl buff every raid tier), skip all the lower Cataclysm heroics and do Hour of Twilight heroics (that pretty much clear themselves) to go straight back into LFR DS and regular DS? Would you level a character in say, Diablo 3 and then have it go straight to Act 4 Inferno at level 60 and do the same act for the next 7 months because Act 1-3 dropped worse gear? And that brings us back to not having anything to do.
WoTLK was terribly easy and bad compared to TBC. But the fact that some of the content was not so easily accessible (Ulduar 25man/other hard modes) and that the old gear wasn't completely replaced by the next tier (TOC GDKPs in ICC patch anyone?) meant there was tons more to do than in Cataclysm. TBC was a better version of that because of the difficulty level which increased the time spent working on a particular thing. But I'm willing to settle for WoLTK difficulty.
I don't have high hopes for Blizzard, but I do hope they have a couple of incentives in mind for us to work towards in MoP that aren't just collecting LFR gear and the recoloured versions of it.
I'd be wary of Blizzard rumors or announcements too. What happened to our underwater instance promised in Cataclysm?
And yeah - it does feel more single playerish. Before, I had tons to do with my friend's levelling character but once it got to 80 and into the Cataclysm zones, there was nothing I could do with that character outside of the same boring dungeons. You can sort of see the direction they're taking. Cataclysm is pretty much a solo levelling affair minus the Ring of Blood quest. Then they removed Elites from the entire game that didn't have some sort of gimmick to killing them (i.e with a vehicle/buff/NPC help etc). Anyone enjoy watching the 12k hp Durn the Hungerer walk around Oshu'gun in Nagrand like some kind of twisted joke?
EPT
