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11589 Posts
On December 15 2015 15:16 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 12:30 yamato77 wrote:On December 15 2015 12:06 zzdd wrote:On December 15 2015 11:53 whatusername wrote:
If you're leaving it up to luck, then that's your problem for taking bad engagements. Every gun has a different effective range, it's been like this for a long time You are saying adding more luck is good. Why? Keep in mind you have zero control over what engagements you take. Zero control? That's patently not true. I don't like the change but it's only in the context of rifle vs pistol or rifle vs SMG fights where full strafe ADAD is difficult to combat with worse spraying. In rifle vs rifle fights, this change is actually good. While it does affect all firing, it disproportionately affects spraying, so tapping and bursting are comparatively stronger, which leads to actually more skillful engagements at range rather than every fight boiling down to spray v spray. DMing on the new patch, I feel like I'm winning more fights by simply being more accurate than the person I'm fighting, which is what I think it should be. Before I felt like spraying was too strong to do this, as having better aim was only so good. This argument feels like a bunch of players who aren't actually very well-versed in the game fighting about something they have relatively little experience with. If all you want to do is scream about RNG and less skill, you may kindly take your complaints to reddit and acquire karma there, because this forum is far less receptive to simple-minded evaluations of gameplay changes. People are going overboard with "game is dying" and "I can't control anything anymore" thing obviously, but saying that we should go back to reddit if we have complaints about the patch and that we are whining only because we "aren't well-wersed in the game" is incredibly simple-minded too. These are for the most part very valid complaints that a lot of people have including high-profile ones. And I might repeat myself here, but I don't mind the aim of the patch, I just criticise the implementation that was sloppy at best. There are better ways to promote tapping than that.
What I've seen in this thread is "RNG IS BAD BECAUSE RANDOM IS BAD" which is a silly way of looking at the rifle change. I already stated my complaint with the change, and it includes CONTEXT, which is severely lacking from a lot of these blanket statements about the change.
There are very few ways to truly promote more pure aim than by nerfing spraying. Nerfing spraying actually reduces the RNG in the game by promoting accurate firing over simply relying on controlling an inconsistent spray pattern. It's like people failed to realize there was already inaccuracy built into every shot you fired on the first place (which is not necessarily a bad thing, mind you). By making spraying less reliable you in turn make it a game more about pure aim.
The argument that tapping and bursting were affected to the point of making the game worse is a bit of a stretch. Both were only marginally affected by the change. Rifle v rifle fights will not be less skillful, as some seem to argue, because the better aimer will still win the same fights they were winning before. Nothing has changed there.
Professional players being against the change is no surprise. Pros actually don't like any change to core mechanics and will resist them. GO is a fine game but a lot of pros hated it because it wasn't 1.6. Unless they have a real argument, stating that they dislike it is nothing more than an appeal to authority that I readily ignore.
What people usually fail to see with regards to "RNG" is that almost every competitive game is built around the better player being able to manipulate the (sometimes random) elements of the game in their favor. No competitive game is without RNG. CSGO would be a bad game if it included no random elements.
I never said that anyone with complaints should leave, I said those without reasoned complaints should. I at first thought this change was overwhelmingly bad but I've grown to like it somewhat now that I've experienced it. I ask that people actually think through what they are typing instead of making blanket statements better suited to social media.
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On December 16 2015 06:29 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 15:16 Roggay wrote:On December 15 2015 12:30 yamato77 wrote:On December 15 2015 12:06 zzdd wrote:On December 15 2015 11:53 whatusername wrote:
If you're leaving it up to luck, then that's your problem for taking bad engagements. Every gun has a different effective range, it's been like this for a long time You are saying adding more luck is good. Why? Keep in mind you have zero control over what engagements you take. Zero control? That's patently not true. I don't like the change but it's only in the context of rifle vs pistol or rifle vs SMG fights where full strafe ADAD is difficult to combat with worse spraying. In rifle vs rifle fights, this change is actually good. While it does affect all firing, it disproportionately affects spraying, so tapping and bursting are comparatively stronger, which leads to actually more skillful engagements at range rather than every fight boiling down to spray v spray. DMing on the new patch, I feel like I'm winning more fights by simply being more accurate than the person I'm fighting, which is what I think it should be. Before I felt like spraying was too strong to do this, as having better aim was only so good. This argument feels like a bunch of players who aren't actually very well-versed in the game fighting about something they have relatively little experience with. If all you want to do is scream about RNG and less skill, you may kindly take your complaints to reddit and acquire karma there, because this forum is far less receptive to simple-minded evaluations of gameplay changes. People are going overboard with "game is dying" and "I can't control anything anymore" thing obviously, but saying that we should go back to reddit if we have complaints about the patch and that we are whining only because we "aren't well-wersed in the game" is incredibly simple-minded too. These are for the most part very valid complaints that a lot of people have including high-profile ones. And I might repeat myself here, but I don't mind the aim of the patch, I just criticise the implementation that was sloppy at best. There are better ways to promote tapping than that. What I've seen in this thread is "RNG IS BAD BECAUSE RANDOM IS BAD" which is a silly way of looking at the rifle change. I already stated my complaint with the change, and it includes CONTEXT, which is severely lacking from a lot of these blanket statements about the change. There are very few ways to truly promote more pure aim than by nerfing spraying. Nerfing spraying actually reduces the RNG in the game by promoting accurate firing over simply relying on controlling an inconsistent spray pattern. It's like people failed to realize there was already inaccuracy built into every shot you fired on the first place (which is not necessarily a bad thing, mind you). By making spraying less reliable you in turn make it a game more about pure aim. The argument that tapping and bursting were affected to the point of making the game worse is a bit of a stretch. Both were only marginally affected by the change. Rifle v rifle fights will not be less skillful, as some seem to argue, because the better aimer will still win the same fights they were winning before. Nothing has changed there. Professional players being against the change is no surprise. Pros actually don't like any change to core mechanics and will resist them. GO is a fine game but a lot of pros hated it because it wasn't 1.6. Unless they have a real argument, stating that they dislike it is nothing more than an appeal to authority that I readily ignore. What people usually fail to see with regards to "RNG" is that almost every competitive game is built around the better player being able to manipulate the (sometimes random) elements of the game in their favor. No competitive game is without RNG. CSGO would be a bad game if it included no random elements. I never said that anyone with complaints should leave, I said those without reasoned complaints should. I at first thought this change was overwhelmingly bad but I've grown to like it somewhat now that I've experienced it. I ask that people actually think through what they are typing instead of making blanket statements better suited to social media.
I wonder - and I dunno if this is possible in the CSGO engine or whatever - but you'd think the better way to nerf spraying and promote bursting would be to cause recoil reset to slow down as someone sprays. So you burst 5 rounds and recoil resets quickly, but if you spray like, 15 rounds, by the end the recoil resets much more slowly (comparatively). Instead of having a flat value for how quickly recoil resets.
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Jesus, im watching FPL and the NA pros talk wayyy too much. :D
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and/or all speak comprehensible english :3
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They could also nerf tagging to allow more mobility when you're getting sprayed. IIRC that was how it was earlier in CS:GO's life. I personally only don't like the patch because it makes spray transfer a lot worse. I think 4 times since the update I've noticed the time being increased on my kills in those situations. Those were also my favorite kills to get too. The changes to the riflers really aren't that bad though especially with the pistol nerfs. With tagging still being harsh smgs aren't super good (they probably never were) either.
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11589 Posts
Well all of this discussion means nothing because Valve succumbs to the pressure and reverts the changes.
Now we're literally only going to hear complaining about round timers LMAO
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GAMEPLAY
Reverted recent changes to pistols and the AK-47, M4A4, and M4A1-S (see the CS:GO blog for details).
GAMEPLAY
Reverted recent changes to pistols and the AK-47, M4A4, and M4A1-S (see the CS:GO blog for details).
GAMEPLAY
Reverted recent changes to pistols and the AK-47, M4A4, and M4A1-S (see the CS:GO blog for details).
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We don't write these messages for valve we makes these posts for the people yamato. The people need our constructive posting and probably couldn't live their life without it. Don't even downplay your value, you're one in 7.21 billion.
Edit: Oh god damn it valve. DON'T BRING BACK THE PISTOLS! I DON'T CARE ABOUT MY SPRAY CONTROL REVERT REVERT REVERT 
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On December 16 2015 06:29 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 15:16 Roggay wrote:On December 15 2015 12:30 yamato77 wrote:On December 15 2015 12:06 zzdd wrote:On December 15 2015 11:53 whatusername wrote:
If you're leaving it up to luck, then that's your problem for taking bad engagements. Every gun has a different effective range, it's been like this for a long time You are saying adding more luck is good. Why? Keep in mind you have zero control over what engagements you take. Zero control? That's patently not true. I don't like the change but it's only in the context of rifle vs pistol or rifle vs SMG fights where full strafe ADAD is difficult to combat with worse spraying. In rifle vs rifle fights, this change is actually good. While it does affect all firing, it disproportionately affects spraying, so tapping and bursting are comparatively stronger, which leads to actually more skillful engagements at range rather than every fight boiling down to spray v spray. DMing on the new patch, I feel like I'm winning more fights by simply being more accurate than the person I'm fighting, which is what I think it should be. Before I felt like spraying was too strong to do this, as having better aim was only so good. This argument feels like a bunch of players who aren't actually very well-versed in the game fighting about something they have relatively little experience with. If all you want to do is scream about RNG and less skill, you may kindly take your complaints to reddit and acquire karma there, because this forum is far less receptive to simple-minded evaluations of gameplay changes. People are going overboard with "game is dying" and "I can't control anything anymore" thing obviously, but saying that we should go back to reddit if we have complaints about the patch and that we are whining only because we "aren't well-wersed in the game" is incredibly simple-minded too. These are for the most part very valid complaints that a lot of people have including high-profile ones. And I might repeat myself here, but I don't mind the aim of the patch, I just criticise the implementation that was sloppy at best. There are better ways to promote tapping than that. What I've seen in this thread is "RNG IS BAD BECAUSE RANDOM IS BAD" which is a silly way of looking at the rifle change. I already stated my complaint with the change, and it includes CONTEXT, which is severely lacking from a lot of these blanket statements about the change. There are very few ways to truly promote more pure aim than by nerfing spraying. Nerfing spraying actually reduces the RNG in the game by promoting accurate firing over simply relying on controlling an inconsistent spray pattern. It's like people failed to realize there was already inaccuracy built into every shot you fired on the first place (which is not necessarily a bad thing, mind you). By making spraying less reliable you in turn make it a game more about pure aim. The argument that tapping and bursting were affected to the point of making the game worse is a bit of a stretch. Both were only marginally affected by the change. Rifle v rifle fights will not be less skillful, as some seem to argue, because the better aimer will still win the same fights they were winning before. Nothing has changed there. Professional players being against the change is no surprise. Pros actually don't like any change to core mechanics and will resist them. GO is a fine game but a lot of pros hated it because it wasn't 1.6. Unless they have a real argument, stating that they dislike it is nothing more than an appeal to authority that I readily ignore. What people usually fail to see with regards to "RNG" is that almost every competitive game is built around the better player being able to manipulate the (sometimes random) elements of the game in their favor. No competitive game is without RNG. CSGO would be a bad game if it included no random elements. I never said that anyone with complaints should leave, I said those without reasoned complaints should. I at first thought this change was overwhelmingly bad but I've grown to like it somewhat now that I've experienced it. I ask that people actually think through what they are typing instead of making blanket statements better suited to social media.
I don't think the nerf is that big a deal but tapping is worse than before. That is a fact. The update does not promote tapping because tapping is worse. I don't know what range Valve was thinking about with this nerf is for but I rarely see people full spraying from somewhere like pit to A site on dust 2. They usually are bursting at that range so I don't think this nerf does anything to address those concerns for long range spraying.
If they buffed recovery time then tapping would actually be useful and people would prefer it to spraying. The reason people spray in every situation in the first place is because tapping is so slow.
I never even said anything about removing RNG. I was merely pointing out that RNG does not promote skill.
Edit: And I just noticed they reverted the changes.
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So apparently fugly is getting kicked and allu is coming in. Kinda feel bad that fugly is getting kicked, honestly i would rather kick adreN (even though he is igl) and keep fugly. He seems more reliable and better overall, despite some bad performances recently.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Without an igl you don't have anything though. Quite a few IGL's are mediocre players but they are needed because of what they add to the team
then again I can't really say that Adren is a tactical mastermind or anything but I don't know what will happen to the team without him.
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YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH IM SO FUCKING HAPPY!!!!!! I hope theyll switch the timers back aswell, but atleast it was the least of the problems in the patch (though i dont like it at all still). Good to see they reacted quite fast when they noticed that the changes were bad tho.
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On December 16 2015 12:22 Kotreb wrote:
So apparently fugly is getting kicked and allu is coming in. Kinda feel bad that fugly is getting kicked, honestly i would rather kick adreN (even though he is igl) and keep fugly. He seems more reliable and better overall, despite some bad performances recently.
Wait, allu is leaving NiP?
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Allu left NiP a few days ago and is trialing for Liquid.
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On December 16 2015 19:48 Kipsate wrote:
Without an igl you don't have anything though. Quite a few IGL's are mediocre players but they are needed because of what they add to the team
then again I can't really say that Adren is a tactical mastermind or anything but I don't know what will happen to the team without him.
True, igls are hard to come by in cs. Maybe James could call shots (as Starix does in na'vi if i understood it correctly) or just switch adren to coach role. I don't have anything against him, it's just i feel fugly is more clutch/better player than adren.
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On December 16 2015 22:16 Kipsate wrote:
Allu left NiP a few days ago and is trialing for Liquid.
Is it known why? I thought he was a good addition to their team.
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On December 16 2015 23:45 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2015 22:16 Kipsate wrote:
Allu left NiP a few days ago and is trialing for Liquid. Is it known why? I thought he was a good addition to their team.
All NiP players are contracted until end of 2015. I guess allu decided to move on since NiP didn't win any title during the year. From twitter and statements it looks like it was allu's choice.
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Hyrule19259 Posts
Isn't it partially a language thing too?
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Magic Woods9326 Posts
On December 16 2015 19:48 Kipsate wrote:
Without an igl you don't have anything though.
Well someone that might not be known as an IGL can actually still lead. Just take pronax as an example, if the most successful IGL is gonna get cut because of higher fraging impact then no IGL is safe.
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They were prepping for it long ahead, having flusha call for some time and before as well.
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EPT
