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Nocticate
Vatican City State2902 Posts
On November 21 2013 02:02 Sn0_Man wrote: I remember when Geofri's was an exalt ez... (on hardcore). I mean it's still really nice if you're already taking Resolute Technique. Why was it so good? I don't see anything major on the changelogs. Or was it just outclassed by other, better uniques being introduced? | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
AKA it used to be around level 30 you did shit damage without a geoffri's as virtually every melee build. Now your damage is OK without a geofri's plus rare items can actually pretty much match it in damage which never used to be the case. I'm talking very shortly into Open Beta though. I should clarify, you did fine damage as ele cleave but every 2h build was pretty questionable. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On November 21 2013 05:09 whoso wrote: does anyone have an idea how to set up a culling mf support for a 2-4 man map group? ive heard people say spark got nerfed into the ground but the character isnt really meant to run on its own (maybe piety or lower maps would be nice) so i guess one can still go dual totem spark culling strike? somewhat low budget, so no shavronnes or anything edit: possible as a shadow? or witch better suited aurastack, conduit, cull/MF + dual curse / spectres / utility totems. | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On November 20 2013 14:26 r.Evo wrote: Since that thing is getting more attention than it deserves at this point: Whatever you do (even though his general concept is awesome): Don't listen to his mathcraft. He does make some theory-craft mistakes but I don't think it deserves less attention than it does. Many PoEer, especially beginners, view evasion as a subpar mechanic and he has the merit of showing how the evasion tree can be used to great efficiency. Guides aren't made for experienced players to follow but for beginners and this one is particularly well explained. It deserves attention. | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
Evasion as a mechanic is bad and unreliable, you might evade 90% of all attacks, but the 10% that do hit you will hit you for full damage if you have no armor. It's an incredibly unreliable mechanic and not really viable in hardcore or nemesis. But for standard it's whatever, if you can die as much as you want... knock yourself out. I'm not hating on softcore by the way, I enjoy playing softcore occasionally myself, but HC builds will always be safer and offer more suvivability. So to argue that evasion is viable because some guy got to level 87 with it in standard is just silly. | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
On November 21 2013 18:18 SlixSC wrote: I don't really see the value in a standard build guide, you can die as much as you want in standard, so any build can be tinkered to work to some extent. Evasion as a mechanic is bad and unreliable, you might evade 90% of all attacks, but the 10% that do hit you will hit you for full damage if you have no armor. It's an incredibly unreliable mechanic and not really viable in hardcore or nemesis. But for standard it's whatever, if you can die as much as you want... knock yourself out. I'm not hating on softcore by the way, I enjoy playing softcore occasionally myself, but HC builds will always be safer and offer more suvivability. So to argue that evasion is viable because some guy got to level 87 with it in standard is just silly. finally, someone who answered my question. thanks. | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On November 21 2013 19:57 eu.exodus wrote: finally, someone who answered my question. thanks. If you question was : Is evasion an efficient damage mitigation mechanic, then his answer is false. This subject has been discussed to death in this thread and in others, so I won't come back on it. If you care enough, you can do the maths yourself. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
The real problem is getting two shot by accurate +damage rares since you cannot ever get hit twice in a row by normal monsters with 50%+ evasion rating and that GGG insists on continually introducing more and more physical damage spells, Undying Evangelists being the worst offender. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On November 21 2013 22:32 TheTenthDoc wrote: Considering how armor crushing mechanics work (that is, armor being less effective the bigger the hit), you're not that much more likely to get 1 shot with evasion provided you build enough life. Every 1-shot I've ever seen has also been elemental, not physical, damage, which evasion is actually better at mitigating than armor. The real problem is getting two shot by accurate +damage rares since you cannot ever get hit twice in a row by normal monsters with 50%+ evasion rating and that GGG insists on continually introducing more and more physical damage spells, Undying Evangelists being the worst offender. That's incorrect, unless GG calculates probabilities in a really weird smoothed-out way. If you had 50% evasion, you would have a (1 - .5)^2 or 25% chance of being hit twice in a row. | ||
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Miragee
8699 Posts
On November 22 2013 00:11 ticklishmusic wrote: That's incorrect, unless GG calculates probabilities in a really weird smoothed-out way. If you had 50% evasion, you would have a (1 - .5)^2 or 25% chance of being hit twice in a row. I heard someone saying here, that evasion isn't really random at all. But he didn't explain the system. Is it that if you have 10% evasion and get struck 10 times you have 1 guaranteed evade and 9 guaranteed hits and the system calculate random with chances at first but later on takes past hit/misses into consideration? | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
80% chance to evade always goes MISS, MISS, MISS, MISS, HIT etc It rolls the first hit and all the next ones are simply based on where in the expected hit-miss chain you are. It does handle funky values like 77 properly though (no easy to define hit-miss chain). Look it up on the wiki. GGG built the system to avoid obnoxious circumstances like "well i had 70% evade chance which was working fine until I took 4 consecutive hits and instadied wtf I have 70% evade chance!". Its like the video's of spirit breaker proccing his 16% bash in 6 out of 7 consecutive attacks. IT HAPPENS in true random situations. GGG said "nope". Interestingly they opted out of any sort of pseudorandom distribution either in favour of simple "nonrandom" distribution. | ||
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Victolol
Germany46 Posts
In case of Path of Exile the threshold is 100 and the added value is the monsters chance to hit after both the monsters accuracy and the players evasion rating are taken into consideration. The initial Entropy value is a number between 0-99. So for example you have a monster with 65% chance to hit, what happens is the following: 1. Entropy is rolled, for example 23 2. On the first attack, the hit chance is added (65) 3. The result is 88, which is <100, so the threshold has not been reached and the attack is evaded 4. The second attack occurs, the hit chance is added (65) 5. The result is 153, which is >100, the threshold has been reached, so the attack hits and 100 is subtracted from the entropy value 6. The second attack occurs, the hit chance is added (65) 7. The result is 118, by now you should be able to guess the result :-) This only works for evasion, block and dodge are random! After 6 seconds without the same monster attacking you the entropy value is reset, it is rolled randomly for every monster. | ||
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Tennet
United States1458 Posts
I'd have to do something fairly easy to either farm or just build wealth. I'm tempted to go on my standard templar and use the passive reset to see how my BM LA templar works now. It might actually be better now with some of the passive tree changes. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Miragee
8699 Posts
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Tennet
United States1458 Posts
On November 22 2013 01:42 ticklishmusic wrote: Wanders are so gear dependent though ._, Of course, but I'm ballsy and RNG loves me. So it is more of a matter of do i get something nice before I switch out of melee. The way I'm building myself I can go into wander, spell caster or possibly stay melee. | ||
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autechr3
United States58 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
All that said, HP pool master race! Armor and evasion both suck ass in the grand scheme of things. ES counts as HP pool obviously in the right builds. A baseline of evasion is OK for crit dodging, and armor is nice, but nothing comes CLOSE to raw HP. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On November 21 2013 18:18 SlixSC wrote: I don't really see the value in a standard build guide, you can die as much as you want in standard, so any build can be tinkered to work to some extent. Evasion as a mechanic is bad and unreliable, you might evade 90% of all attacks, but the 10% that do hit you will hit you for full damage if you have no armor. It's an incredibly unreliable mechanic and not really viable in hardcore or nemesis. But for standard it's whatever, if you can die as much as you want... knock yourself out. I'm not hating on softcore by the way, I enjoy playing softcore occasionally myself, but HC builds will always be safer and offer more suvivability. So to argue that evasion is viable because some guy got to level 87 with it in standard is just silly. Evasion mostly is viable because the majority of people who pick up this game think "bad and unreliable, you might evade 90% of all attacks, but the 10% that do hit you will hit you for full damage if you have no armor". That's the exact same mitigation someone with armor has if he reduces 90% of the damage (lol) of a single hit assuming the damage isn't enough to oneshot you. Evasion by itself scales similarly (albeit better) to armor (aka crappy as hell) but what pushes it way, way over the edge is dodge+spell dodge+Ondars Guile+(theoretically block). On top of that one of the strongest damage mitigation ways in the game (enfeeble) double dips with evasion while it doesn't do so with armor. Basically there is a thin line of where your HP is enough to tank damage mitigated via armor and where it starts to oneshot you because it just gets too damn high. There also is a line where an evasion based build gets oneshot when it doesn't evade because it doesn't have enough mitigation. Below that second threshold is where both builds perform more even (with an edge to evasion because of the above multipliers), above the first threshold is where evasion pulls miles, miles ahead. Considering that most things in this game that are really fucking scary (e.g. Maze Vaal smash or GMP Devourers) will oneshot you no matter how much mitigation you have with just the slightest damage mods on your map (during Onslaught Vaal Maze did 16k damage with a smash split between physical/fire) it's completely reasonable to be like "I'd rather have a random out than no out". Technically most things in this game that 1-2 shot you are designed to be completely avoidable (e.g. Vaal Smash, Brutus shizzles) but once their damage gets too high to mitigate it via armor it's very hard to argue that evasion isn't flat out better. Random example: 5k HP. a) 20k armor+7 endurance charges b) Random amount of evasion+dodge+5 endurance charges In scenario a) you get one shot when the damage goes above 9000 (lol). In scenario b) you get one shot when the damage goes above 6300. ----> In this specific case as soon as the highest expected single hit damage is between 6300 and 9000 armor is way, way superior to evasion. In all other cases evasion is the superior form of mitigation. PS: Buffer > all. PPS: Bonus math because I just made that spreadsheet anyway. The above scenario has another fun version. Because the risk of getting twoshot with an armor build is actually higher at certain values than the risk of getting twoshot for the evasion based build. Scenario a) gets twoshot at 5300 damage in one hit. Assuming 50% evasion (which evasion exactly to assume is tricky to figure out, all people have are estimates but hitting 40-50% seems reasonable)... scenario b) simply can't get twoshot. Now the ranges for above scenario with this included are: 0-5300 damage = equal 5300 damage-6300 damage = evasion miles ahead 6300-9000 damage = armor miles ahead over 9000 damage = evasion miles ahead | ||
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Nocticate
Vatican City State2902 Posts
Yeah, that seems right. So if you're looking for speed on a reflect map, it's actually better to go for evasion+block and keep your primary dps options. Huh. | ||
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