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On October 23 2013 00:43 LagLovah wrote:
Because we are more or less argueing about different things. I don't see the changes as impacting high level hardcore play as much, which is what I mainly play, along with whatever races happen to fit my schedule, you only race, so changes like these impact you alot more.
Your particular arguement was had alot on the forums with descent, with duelist being miles ahead of every other class. If the main race prizes are given away by class point totals then it doesn't matter for balance between classes, the only outlier being if your class is way worse you might have to play some more races to get your unique items no?
Yes, but that's the problem. If I want to hit first bracket in a race I have to play a potent class, else I can forget it. It's not a difficult problem to solve really. You can nerf WED at higher levels without nerfing templar for races, by simply changing the way the damage scales when it's leveld up. This change was unecessary as it only hurts racers and with a little more thought by GGG this problem could have easily been avoided.
It's really not rocket science, and they have done this in the past (with fire trap for example). But the only class this change really hurts in racing is templar, which I reiterate was nowhere close to as good as duelist.
It's just lazy balancing.
And if people want to defend this lazy approach to balancing the game, fine go ahead, but if that's your philosophical framework and acceptable to you, we simply have nothing to talk about. I have no interest in debating people who value laziness by the developers over actual game balance.
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Looks like scion is going to be the strongest class in 1.0, I predict it'll be nerfed quite quickly based on what I've from the leaked passive trees. Not only does scion have so many great nodes around it, it's also the most well positioned to get to any other part of the passive tree. That's my prediction, we'll have to see what it looks like tomorrow and how things play out in the next week.
Not much point raging over it right now.
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*edit* ill save speculation for when the tree is out and we see the numbers on the cleave nerf.
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* yeah whatever. I'm mad, but I guess there is some outlying possibility that the nerf isn't as bad as I think it is. Still don't understand why Duelist goes by unchecked.
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They should probably just make it so that the class is unplayably awful for the large majority of players who play the actual game so that those people who race can play their pet class instead of duelist.
I mean, nothing's preventing you from playing duelist.
The WED nerf was because practically every weapon-based build in the game used that gem, it was categorically better than almost any other support. They can't just make the gem not scale at all with levels  If it harms templar's race builds thats a shame but AFAIK there are worse classes than templar.
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On October 23 2013 01:13 Sn0_Man wrote:They should probably just make it so that the class is unplayably awful for the large majority of players who play the actual game so that those people who race can play their pet class instead of duelist. I mean, nothing's preventing you from playing duelist. The WED nerf was because practically every weapon-based build in the game used that gem, it was categorically better than almost any other support. They can't just make the gem not scale at all with levels If it harms templar's race builds thats a shame but AFAIK there are worse classes than templar.
That's not what I said, so stop strawmanning me. I said they could make it scale differently in order to not hurt race classes that rely on it. Which really isn't rocket science. (and they did just that in the past, with fire trap for example).
Balance in the normal game doesn't matter because you are not actually competing for anything anyway, where balance really matters is racing because in races you actually compete with other players, so your point is moot.
And making gems scale differently at lower levels has no effect on higher levels, so your argument is just dumb anyway.
Because a nerf to duelist at low levels, by making cleave and leap slam not scale aswell as it does now (just at low levels), would totally effect a lvl 90 duelist, when the damage scaling of gems at that level would be 100% the same. At what point did you decide that was somehow a logical thing to say?
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I am gonna play a Scion with Arc and I don't care how much it'll suck.
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On October 23 2013 01:24 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 01:13 Sn0_Man wrote:They should probably just make it so that the class is unplayably awful for the large majority of players who play the actual game so that those people who race can play their pet class instead of duelist. I mean, nothing's preventing you from playing duelist. The WED nerf was because practically every weapon-based build in the game used that gem, it was categorically better than almost any other support. They can't just make the gem not scale at all with levels If it harms templar's race builds thats a shame but AFAIK there are worse classes than templar. That's not what I said, so stop strawmanning me. I said they could make it scale differently in order to not hurt race classes that rely on it. Which really isn't rocket science. (and they did just that in the past, with fire trap for example). Balance in the normal game doesn't matter because you are not actually competing for anything anyway, where balance really matters is racing because in races you actually compete with other players, so your point is moot. And making gems scale differently at lower levels has no effect on higher levels, so your argument is just dumb anyway. Because a nerf to duelist at low levels, by making cleave and leap slam not scale aswell as it does now (just at low levels), would totally effect a lvl 90 duelist, when the damage scaling of gems at that level would be 100% the same. At what point did you decide that was somehow a logical thing to say?
Weapon elemental damage has been the bastard child of GGG. It has gone through so many changes through the times and it will change even more. In early closed beta is was almost worthless. Then, entered the most broken skill in the games history: Avatar of Fire! The keystone passive changed all your damage into fire damage and given a lot of elemental damage multiplier in the Templar side of the tree, the game was severely broken for that class. Not so much in races, since it took several levels to reach it, but in later game. It almost made templars as good as ranged heroes!
The keystone was nerfed in several tries and anything scaling the damage was changed too, but eventually the passive was removed and the elemental damage was significantly buffed to still make elemental damage worthy. The compensation was a bit to the heavy side and weapon elemental damage mods started completely dominating the end-game items value. They have changed the effects several times to compensate for passive changes and new gems and even though a few physical damage builds started to appear for rangers and duelists, there are still viable weapon elemental damage builds for every class.
My take on the issue is that races take the classes down to cookie-cutter builds primarily anyway. In this case WED is taking a 21 % hit to damage, but is lighter on your mana. Without knowing the passive changes it is premature to judge if templar is completely out as opposed to having to change build.
When that is said templar has been a bad class at racing for ages. Only witch has been consistently worse. Choosing any of those for races is a brave choice, but wait and see before you judge it as completely worthless. The nerf to auras is gonna hit almost every class build and the game-balance in act 2 normal will therefore be completely new for most classes.
I would personally like a large shake-up in the different skillgem quest-reward tables to make them even more thematic for each character and more changes designed to balance them for race builds. It will all change through time, don't expect the game to be that static in terms of race builds.
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Move duelist leap slam gem so you can't get it until act3, suddenly racing seems a lot more balanced.
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On October 23 2013 03:47 ZoRoXo wrote:
Move duelist leap slam gem so you can't get it until act3, suddenly racing seems a lot more balanced.
I feel like Marauder would be OP.  Gorathaaaa already often managed to be even with the best Duelists when he was playing, and Hybriis often was close, too. Plus, they're buffing the start of Marauder a bit (more Strength and Mana regen or something).
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On October 23 2013 04:08 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 03:47 ZoRoXo wrote:
Move duelist leap slam gem so you can't get it until act3, suddenly racing seems a lot more balanced. I feel like Marauder would be OP. Gorathaaaa already often managed to be even with the best Duelists when he was playing, and Hybriis often was close, too. Plus, they're buffing the start of Marauder a bit (more Strength and Mana regen or something).
Yeah and as soon as Duelist and marauder are nerfed, shadows fall over the land of Wraeclast. The way to balance would be to look at common gems and appropriately rescale them all the way around instead of focusing on the classes. Only at that point, will the race-game improve. I would not rule out the need for a rescaling of cleave to be weaker early on and be easier to modify later on to accomodate more significant modding by support gems.Cleave and Ele-cleave have been the stables of melee late-game since the start of open beta. Breaking it into more specialized builds may be an improvement.
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On October 23 2013 00:47 Sun.Tzu wrote:
Looks like scion is going to be the strongest class in 1.0, I predict it'll be nerfed quite quickly based on what I've from the leaked passive trees. Not only does scion have so many great nodes around it, it's also the most well positioned to get to any other part of the passive tree. That's my prediction, we'll have to see what it looks like tomorrow and how things play out in the next week.
Not much point raging over it right now.
For racing or the regular game? I don't race but yeah, lots of people will play Scion. I, however, think that most of them will soon realize that Scion only rarely makes sense to pick. I know it will for my build as I have to get US and grab nodes from the top.
Same goes for the spectral throw stuff.. it's probably not as good as people think. I'll avoid it for my first character.
Man I love the legacy uniques. I don't have any of them but the price of them doubled at least and sellers are looking for profit. Little do they know that nobody wants to buy these overpriced items and everybody will be gone for the new leagues in a day. Ho ho ho. 
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I'll be home at release and will try to grab Math of Exile. Any suggestions if it gets taken?
I see no reason to have separate guilds for HC / SC; I don't think we'll have more than 30 players between all leagues.
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On October 23 2013 06:08 EchelonTee wrote:
I'll be home at release and will try to grab Math of Exile. Any suggestions if it gets taken?
I see no reason to have separate guilds for HC / SC; I don't think we'll have more than 30 players between all leagues.
I already messaged support to figure out if we can reserve a certain guildname, if it worked with Valve it might work with GGG. :3
Are you guys really that pessimistic about our numbers? Pretty sure the release might bring out all the Lurkers and people who have enjoyed the game at certain points during the Beta.
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There's a decent player base on TL, but the people who play a lot like Slix probably have their own groups already. Back at the start of Open Beta there weren't more than 30 who'd be interested in a TL guild and I think that there's going to be about the same number of TL players coming back/playing. If there's way more than that we can discuss having a HC and a SC guild, but until then I think just one guild is fine. It also depends on how much guild expansions cost.
Someone else really needs to be guild leader besides me though; I lack both the experience and time, as in January I'm going back to school and will barely be playing. Any volunteers?
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Dropped an exalt today yesssssss
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Ill join the guild, Ill be playing the new hardcore league, I could care less about high level map groups, so I don't mind if I am ahead of the group.
Seeing some of the new nodes.... pretty insane. Duelist starts even looked buffed, though I haven't browsed the others, one would hope they are as well.
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Hi,
I played the game a bit on the closed beta, and the first few weeks of the open beta. I've decided to start playing again since the 1.0 release is less than 12 hours away. Could anybody here recommend me something funny to experiment with? Ive mostly played (frost-based) witch in the past, so i would preferrably try out something else.
tldr; not looking for any cookie-cutter builds (i know what the character progression is like), more likely something that ppl have enjoyed and something that hasn't felt all-out boring right from the start. Im mostly gonna be playing solo, at least for the big part of the beginning.
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Looking for people to play the nemesis challenge league with. (the hardcore one.)
Will probably play a scion, if not scion, a ranger. Hit me up. Looking for a solid hardcore group thats going to play a lot. (Think kripparian style, if you will.)
PM ME! :D (going to bed now, starts in 10 hours!)
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Will the 1.0 update be avaiable for download before the game is "released" or is there a potential download race before the actual leagues can be played?
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EPT
