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On February 05 2013 17:45 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 16:12 musai wrote:um, anyone know if this is good enough to sell? it's on SC ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3cvbg0E.jpg) It would be if everyone and their mother stopped thinking evasion is bad. Seeing how the highest level ranger has a retarded build, I don't see that happening very soon. You can still sell it to all the FotM Iron Reflexes Duelist or Ranger but it's a buckler so it's not as interesting. In other news,
Armor >>> Evasion in hardcore.
All it takes is one time where you don't evade any attacks for a few seconds and get gibbed, armor gives you a much steadier intake of damage which is way easier to play safely around.
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On February 05 2013 17:45 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 16:12 musai wrote:um, anyone know if this is good enough to sell? it's on SC It would be if everyone and their mother stopped thinking evasion is bad. Seeing how the highest level ranger has a retarded build, I don't see that happening very soon. You can still sell it to all the FotM Iron Reflexes Duelist or Ranger but it's a buckler so it's not as interesting. In other news,
What you are saying, with actually saying nothing is as bad as saying Evasion is bad. Evasion is either avoiding the attack and damage OR suffering a cruel blow to your health, often resulting in a 1 hit or 2 hit. So for that matter, I would agree to say that Evasion is not the best thing in the world. I myself go for Iron Reflexes, so for me its a useful stat, but I canno tunderstand people that rely on evasion as a sole stat.
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Yea I know evasion is terrible, I just wondered if there were any decent Iron Reflex builds that would use it :|
The rolls are pretty legit too...
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Evasion is only terrible if that is your only defense and if you plan to play a slow tanky character (tanky is a guy that stands and exchanges blows). Give your evasion character acrobatics, lots of life and a good shield, decent movement speed and use of skills that don't ask you to stand in the middle of a pack (like LS or GS) and see him survive more then armor chars. Then using Arrow Dodging is a plus that lets you be almost immune to projectiles attacks.
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On February 05 2013 14:49 Mithhaike wrote:
Have you guys seen the new Kripp video of his new character?
100% stun rate with resolute technique + faster attack. Basically trash everything in the game(except immune to stuns monsters).
Nerfbat incoming. This build is definitely overpowered. Perma-stun AOE stun lock is insane. But you guys should look at it.
Watch it on Kripp's youtube channel
its not that great, i mean yes its op vs bosses but vs regular mobs he is squishy as fk and died plenty of times even stacked with uniques and close to perf items
On February 05 2013 17:49 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 17:45 Otolia wrote:On February 05 2013 16:12 musai wrote:um, anyone know if this is good enough to sell? it's on SC It would be if everyone and their mother stopped thinking evasion is bad. Seeing how the highest level ranger has a retarded build, I don't see that happening very soon. You can still sell it to all the FotM Iron Reflexes Duelist or Ranger but it's a buckler so it's not as interesting. In other news, Armor >>> Evasion in hardcore. All it takes is one time where you don't evade any attacks for a few seconds and get gibbed, armor gives you a much steadier intake of damage which is way easier to play safely around.
to be fair armor isnt that great late game either , why do u think people say melee sucks, bosses can still 1hit you because armor reduces less % the more dmg u get hit with, vs some bosses like brutus,vaal granite flasks are must otherwise u might as well go naked, thats why enfeeble is so strong cuz it lowers dmg and makes ur armor more relevant.
even GGG designers say evasion is better late game
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On February 05 2013 17:57 musai wrote:
Yea I know evasion is terrible, I just wondered if there were any decent Iron Reflex builds that would use it :|
The rolls are pretty legit too...
Iron Reflexes Ranger builds are literally FotM right now. If you don't find something on the main forum about it, look harder ^^
On February 05 2013 17:49 dae wrote:
Armor >>> Evasion in hardcore.
All it takes is one time where you don't evade any attacks for a few seconds and get gibbed, armor gives you a much steadier intake of damage which is way easier to play safely around.
On February 05 2013 17:50 Type|NarutO wrote:
What you are saying, with actually saying nothing is as bad as saying Evasion is bad. Evasion is either avoiding the attack and damage OR suffering a cruel blow to your health, often resulting in a 1 hit or 2 hit. So for that matter, I would agree to say that Evasion is not the best thing in the world. I myself go for Iron Reflexes, so for me its a useful stat, but I canno tunderstand people that rely on evasion as a sole stat.
No, that's what everybody thinks. But it's just false.
On the design level, having Evasion is superior to Armour for pure ranged character. Whether or not, this is practical, doable in PoE or easy to achieve is irrelevant. You shouldn't be hit by melee mobs as a ranged character anyway and yes that accounts for flicker strike.
PS : A good build isn't a build that will get to the top of the ladder, it's a build whose gameplay is fun for you. 
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Evasion is not terrible, you just need to use it as a secondary defense (stack health/ES). Furthermore it is NOT prone to randomness, 50% evasion is a guaranteed evade every other hit. See the mechanics thread if you don't believe me.
Fun stuff to try: es/eva + frost damage. You get hit so rarely you can even regen in combat.
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On February 05 2013 18:50 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 17:57 musai wrote:
Yea I know evasion is terrible, I just wondered if there were any decent Iron Reflex builds that would use it :|
The rolls are pretty legit too... Iron Reflexes Ranger builds are literally FotM right now. If you don't find something on the main forum about it, look harder ^^ Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 17:49 dae wrote:
Armor >>> Evasion in hardcore.
All it takes is one time where you don't evade any attacks for a few seconds and get gibbed, armor gives you a much steadier intake of damage which is way easier to play safely around. Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 17:50 Type|NarutO wrote:
What you are saying, with actually saying nothing is as bad as saying Evasion is bad. Evasion is either avoiding the attack and damage OR suffering a cruel blow to your health, often resulting in a 1 hit or 2 hit. So for that matter, I would agree to say that Evasion is not the best thing in the world. I myself go for Iron Reflexes, so for me its a useful stat, but I canno tunderstand people that rely on evasion as a sole stat. No, that's what everybody thinks. But it's just false. On the level design, having Evasion is superior to Armour for pure ranged character. Whether or not, this is practical, doable in PoE or easy to achieve is irrelevant. You shouldn't be hit by melee mobs as a ranged character anyway and yes that accounts for flicker strike. PS : A good build isn't a build that will get to the top of the ladder, it's a build whose gameplay is fun for you.
Its IMPOSSIBLE to not be hit by melee ever. For softcore Evasion might be good, but I still prefer things I can calculate. With evasion, I either evade or die basically. With armor I can count on the damage reduction and put it against the damage output, with evasion I got nothing to work with. Worst case even with a 95% chance to evade attacks you could be unlucky and don't evade for 3 times in a row and just die.
Also I don't see how the level design (wide open areas, opponents from all sides) would help evasion over armor, when you get swarmed.
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From the wiki:
Evasion is not actually based on chance in the technical sense, but can still be referred to as such. The mechanics behind it are designed to evenly spread out hits and misses such that players always evade an average number of times according to their ‘chance’ to evade. For example, a player with 75% chance to evade will always evade three times between each hit.
As I understand it, every time you take a hit, your evasion rating gets added to a counter - if a new integer gets passed when you add your evasion, then you avoid the attack. So if you had 65% evasion, it will look something like:
.65 - hit
1.3 - evade
1.95 - hit
2.6 - evade
3.25 - evade
3.9 - hit
4.55 - evade
...
Until by 20 hits, you will have evaded exactly 13, or 65%. Evasion is only poor when you expect to die in the number of hits it would be possible to take between evades- and as long as you have 50%+, that's a single hit. If you can live longer than that, it simply works out to melee damage reduction equal to your evasion chance.
This makes working out whether IR or evasion will be more reduction for you quite simple. Take your evasion %, EV, work out what your armor (Not armor reduction %) would be with IR, and just solve for D in:
EV% = AR/(AR+12D)
If you take more damage per hit than that, evasion is more reduction, less and armor is better - it's really that simple, up until the point when you get a D that is greater than your EHP, and which point armor is better again - but only marginally, in the sense that you won't die to a single hit, but it's going to provide incredibly poor mitigation.
I should also say that from experience, even with IR, the majority of your points in armor/evasion buffs, and every piece of armor with a +% evasion, +max evasion, or both, your armor still won't be high enough to mitigate the largest hits in the game significantly. The way armor reduction falls off with damage is absolutely brutal.
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I need some advice. I brought my Shadow to Cruel Act 3, lvl 50 now. I found now that I kill too slow, at least with my main attacks.
Let me describe the situation. I got a Shadow with a Staff. Why staff you say? Well I needed a high crit weapon and staff does more damage then both claw or dagger and unlike having two weapons I can more easily upgrade staff as I only need to find 1 new weapon each 10 levels.
Ok so my plan was to go high crit. For defense my plan was to go high life, acrobatics and evasion. Now at lvl 50 I got 48% evasion chance, 20% dodge and 18% block, I got around 1700 life and I got Blood Magic. I am happy with my current survivability, I only died once and that was back in Normal act 3 to the OP first unique with bear traps.
Ok lets go back to my main current problem and that is offense. I use frenzy+accuracy support as frenzy gatherer, then I got Flicker+Increase crit strike+Increased crit damage for single target killing. For groups I got 2 fire traps+Iron Will and I got Lightning Strike + Fork. I also have Bear Trap to help me kill tougher enemies and I use Enfeeble to survive encounters with champions and rares. I use Grace and Wrath connected to Reduce Mana. I am also leveling Blood Rage to use at high levels so I don't need to use Frenzy as much. My frenzy dps is around 500 when I got 4 frenzy up, Flicker is close to 1000 dps with 4 frenzy charges. LS is about 500+ .
I kill groups by throwing fire traps 2 at a time and running around the traps and then finishing them with LS. I though I was doing fine but then I watched a stream of a HC ranger in act 3 cruel and he was clearing these same groups in two shots without barely slowing down. I need like 10+s and usually need to use at least one flask.... so is my DPS, weapons, skills bad or is this just normal and I should get used to it?
I cannot link my tree now, but I got mostly defense, a bit of attack speed and crit chance and damage
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On February 05 2013 18:55 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 18:50 Otolia wrote:On February 05 2013 17:57 musai wrote:
Yea I know evasion is terrible, I just wondered if there were any decent Iron Reflex builds that would use it :|
The rolls are pretty legit too... Iron Reflexes Ranger builds are literally FotM right now. If you don't find something on the main forum about it, look harder ^^ On February 05 2013 17:49 dae wrote:
Armor >>> Evasion in hardcore.
All it takes is one time where you don't evade any attacks for a few seconds and get gibbed, armor gives you a much steadier intake of damage which is way easier to play safely around. On February 05 2013 17:50 Type|NarutO wrote:
What you are saying, with actually saying nothing is as bad as saying Evasion is bad. Evasion is either avoiding the attack and damage OR suffering a cruel blow to your health, often resulting in a 1 hit or 2 hit. So for that matter, I would agree to say that Evasion is not the best thing in the world. I myself go for Iron Reflexes, so for me its a useful stat, but I canno tunderstand people that rely on evasion as a sole stat. No, that's what everybody thinks. But it's just false. On the level design, having Evasion is superior to Armour for pure ranged character. Whether or not, this is practical, doable in PoE or easy to achieve is irrelevant. You shouldn't be hit by melee mobs as a ranged character anyway and yes that accounts for flicker strike. PS : A good build isn't a build that will get to the top of the ladder, it's a build whose gameplay is fun for you. Its IMPOSSIBLE to not be hit by melee ever. For softcore Evasion might be good, but I still prefer things I can calculate. With evasion, I either evade or die basically. With armor I can count on the damage reduction and put it against the damage output, with evasion I got nothing to work with. Worst case even with a 95% chance to evade attacks you could be unlucky and don't evade for 3 times in a row and just die. Also I don't see how the level design (wide open areas, opponents from all sides) would help evasion over armor, when you get swarmed.
Well you can prefer to know which portion of the damage you'll take. But that's a personal choice. As for the evade mechanics, it's technically not random. If you have 75% chance to evade, you will get hit once every 4 attack by the same enemy. I didn't find any indication as how the counter is reset, but it could just means you would be able to crush anyone if your dps is high enough.
And I meant design level not level design. Sorry
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How do you take your Evasion % when you got Iron Reflexes, its not shown anymore, right? Well anyways, I did put
60 = 4300/(4300+12D) which would mean I get the following
D = 12685/36
D = 352,36
I don't know how much damage per hit I take, but it shouldn't be 352 but its very hard to actually notice since I also use Blood Magic
Edit: Ofcourse I should take average hit damage into consideration but as said, hard to really get a grasp on that
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On February 05 2013 19:21 Type|NarutO wrote:
How do you take your Evasion % when you got Iron Reflexes, its not shown anymore, right? Well anyways, I did put
60 = 4300/(4300+12D) which would mean I get the following
D = 12685/36
D = 352,36
I don't know how much damage per hit I take, but it shouldn't be 352 but its very hard to actually notice since I also use Blood Magic
Edit: Ofcourse I should take average hit damage into consideration but as said, hard to really get a grasp on that
Armour = Evasion * (1 + DexterityBonus + EvasionBonus + ArmourBonus) + Armour * (1 + ArmourBonus)
Minimum evasion is 5%. I don't really understand what are Bonuses but it should be explained on the main website when it is back up. That's the formula you need to calculate your evasion back from your armour.
Chance to Evade = 1 - Attacker's Accuracy / ( Attacker's Accuracy + (Defender's Evasion / 4) ^ 0.8 )
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I also read that eva applies twice against critical hit : once to determine if you evade the hit and, if failed, an other one to determine if you evade the critical damage bonus.
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On February 05 2013 15:37 Mithhaike wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 15:06 udgnim wrote:On February 05 2013 14:58 Mithhaike wrote:On February 05 2013 14:54 udgnim wrote:On February 05 2013 14:49 Mithhaike wrote:
Have you guys seen the new Kripp video of his new character?
100% stun rate with resolute technique + faster attack. Basically trash everything in the game(except immune to stuns monsters).
Nerfbat incoming. This build is definitely overpowered. Perma-stun AOE stun lock is insane. But you guys should look at it.
Watch it on Kripp's youtube channel should wait to see how it performs in maps How would it be any different? Like i said the only thing he cant abuse are stun-immune monsters. everything else? Matters not. It's going to be perma-stunned. because stuff hits a whole lot harder in maps, has a whole lot more HP, and he's not going to be able to consistently stun certain packs either due to spread of ranged monsters, monster AI, monster mechanics (leapers/chargers) so chain stunning is going to be lot harder to pull off against packs in maps his video showed him owning bosses which the build excels at and then owning packs in Cruel difficulty which he's overgeared/leveled for For me i look at it another way. The theory behind it is sound. 100% hit rate with 100% stunning rate with a AOE attack makes it so that this build is definitely OP. Regardless of monster spread(say you hit 3out of 5 monsters, it still removes 3 of them from being able to attack you which is definitely a huge boon) or monster hp(which matters not if the targets you hit aren't going to move until they die) meanwhile his damage can still be improved with gear(his main hand mace can be upgraded, not a core unlike the Unique Claw) How can you deny the overwhelming strength of this build? It puzzles me to no end. The fact that he has achieved a perma-bash with an AOE attack is just overpowered. It's like DOTA1 when we used to stack Basher on Troll just because you can perma-bash someone to death with it and they can't stop you. The only possible counter to this build is stun-immune monsters. Which he can avoid by not going maps that has those mods(i assume? i have no map experience here)
with the gear he is using, any build would basically work and only fail due to very special situations (like unexpected corpse explosions :D) You can make an ev-based caster marauder and if you have that level of gear it would still work...
And actually his life isn't very stable. He drops quite low fairly often, and even though he recovers as quick, still, one missstep, one lag, or one oversight on some mobstats and he will die. Kripp is a very good player, but still, a lot of stuff he pulls off, is only possible due to the highend gear he uses, and with normal gear there would be no chance to ever do it.
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To clarify evasion once and for all, this is what a dev posted on the mechanics behind it:
+ Show Spoiler +So I've been asked for details of evasion over PM, and don't want to have to keep giving single replies to more people in future, so since I don't think it's all been laid out in one place yet, it will be here. Evasion in PoE is not fully random. Each entity in the world contains an 'evasion entropy' value, between 1 and 100. The higher this value is, the more likely they are to be hit by the next attack. The initial value is random. Every time something attacks you, they calculate their chance to hit as a percentage. That value is added to your evasion entropy. If the result exceeds 100, you're hit, and 100 is subtracted from the value. If the value hasn't reached 100, you're not hit. Before anyone starts clamouring that they're not getting their actual chance to hit/evade, let's examine this mechanic in a bit more detail. Take the simple example of 100% chance to hit. Since you always add 100 to the entropy, it'll always exceed 100, and thus always hit, which is correct. The case of 0% chance to hit can similarly be trivially shown to be correct. So let's look at 50% chance to hit. Since the initial value is random from 1-100, there's a 50% chance that the initial entropy value is higher than 50%, in which case adding the 50 from chance to hit will exceed 100 and thus hit, and a 50% chance the value is 50% or less, in which case adding 50 will not exceed 100, and thus not hit. So the first hit has a 50% chance to hit, as it should. The second hit also has a 50% chance to hit, but will never hit if the first one does - provided you're only getting hit by things with 50% chance to hit you, you'll evade every second attack, and be hit by the others. Let's say the initial entropy was 42. The first hit increases this to 92, and misses. The second raises it to 142, hitting, and then subtracts 100 from the value, leaving it back at 42. I'll leave other percentages as an exercise for the reader, but they all work out - if an attack has 25% chance to hit you, every fourth attack will hit, and so on. This is the mechanic by which streakiness is removed from evasion - it removes the possibility of failing to evade happening to come up several times in a row due to bad luck. Each attack has the correct chance to hit, and will hit you just as often as you'd expect in the average case using a purely random system, but the possibility of occasional but devastating non-average results - such as being hit by four consecutive attacks with only 10% chance to hit each - have been eliminated. Some caveats: 1) If an attack would crit you, evasion is tested a second time, and if you evade, the hit is downgraded to a non-crit (it does not miss, since it's already tested for that and hit). This roll is purely random and does not increase the entropy value - it just generates a number from 1 to 100 and compares to the chance to hit. Details of why are in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +
Given that this, if it occurs, would always be the next evasion test after the one to see if it hit, then if this did use the entropy value, then having above 50% chance to evade would make you immune to critical strikes, since you can't fail two successive evasion checks on entropy if their chance to hit is below 50%. If you were hit, that means you just failed the evasion check to evade the attack, and thus the entropy is such that the second test would be unable to hit you, and the crit would downgrade, whereas if it failed to hit in the first place, then critting or not is irrelevant.
While the concept of being so evasive you can't be crit is cool, the above behaviour is undesirable, and so checking chance to hit for the purposes of confirming a crit should actually stay a crit does not test entropy. Testing chance to hit for the purposes of actually hitting is always done via the entropy value.
2) Whenever the entropy value would be used, if a certain short amount of time has passed since the last time this occurred, a new random initial value is chosen. This prevents the player from waiting near a weak enemy until it hits (leaving them on a low entropy value), then running to a boss fight, to start knowing they'll have the maximum number of attacks evaded before they get hit. Entropy will perform it's function as long as you're continuously being attacked, but don't expect to transfer it from fight to fight.
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On February 05 2013 19:47 nojok wrote:
I also read that eva applies twice against critical hit : once to determine if you evade the hit and, if failed, an other one to determine if you evade the critical damage bonus.
Indeed which means you can avoid almost all critical damages once your chance to evade is high enough because there is only 3 scenario :
1. You evade the hit -> there is no critical hit.
2. You don't evade the hit -> you don't evade the critical hit. (chance to evade <51%)
3. You don't evade the hit -> you don't evade the critical hit. (chance to evade >=51%)
Discard that apparently it's slightly different.
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Well, my evasion based bow ranger died @ Vaal to the falling rocks. I had been following the debate on this for quite some time, but I think next time I am going with IR.
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On February 05 2013 20:00 screamingpalm wrote:
Well, my evasion based bow ranger died @ Vaal to the falling rocks. I had been following the debate on this for quite some time, but I think next time I am going with IR.
Are you sure it is not a spell? Spells cannot be evaded (only dodged via Phase Acrobatics), armor reduces physical damage regardless if it came from an attack or a spell.
I have come to believe armor is not that great after all. You need a ton of it to avoid big hits (the ones that actually kill you), I think one would be better off stacking evasion (high health/ES pool is a must for any build) with some block chance, just soak the big hit and run/chill the target to buy the time for flasks/es to recharge.
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On February 05 2013 20:00 screamingpalm wrote:
Well, my evasion based bow ranger died @ Vaal to the falling rocks. I had been following the debate on this for quite some time, but I think next time I am going with IR.
Boss are off the charts. Dieing to one isn't always a accurate measurement of performance.
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EPT
