Whoever goes in the finals is going to murder Chelsea because if they want to win they won't be able to put 10 in the defense and then there's the many missing players they'll have. Also the fact that Jupp and Jose aren't going to be amateurs like Pep and play a 3-3-4 formation just to accommodate a player the love so much.
Also the EPL guys saying that Pique and Puyol are bad defenders because they don't have to defend much are funny. Especially the one guy who suggested a few shitty EPL defenders for being better. O'Shea and Brown... give me a break man. Pique is world class and probably one of the best CBs in the world (note: not this season because he was screwing Shakira too much)
im not sure about now, but i have very little question that puyol would tear it up in the EPL (although in all likelihood probably a bit less), and even though he lacks strength compared to other more built players he more than makes up for it with exceptional tenacity and leadership.
could you give me some examples of CBs in the EPL that you rate higher than both puyol and pique and that are not part of any team in the top 3-4? because from what i've gathered you seem to rate the entire league it seems higher than them which i find curious.
Tenacity and leadership are not as important as knowing where the fuck to stand. Puyol and Pique do not seem to know where they should be stood at any particular moment in time, unless it involves being offensive (which isn't actually that useful as a defender).
Outside the top 4?
Tottenham: King, Dawson, Nelsen (maybe). Chelsea: Terry, Cahill (would make an excellent Barcelona centre-half with his attacking mindset and passing ability). Everton: Jagielka. Liverpool: Skrtel. Fulham: Hangelaand (maybe) Sunderland: O'Shea, Brown (both maybes, ex-United so I am biased). Stoke: Huth. Aston Villa: Dunne. Blackburn: Samba (until he left, of course)
EDIT: Some of those teams have defensive midfielders who are probably better centre-halves than either Puyol or Pique. It's actually quite funny.
EDIT2: Not all of these players would be ideal for Barcelona because some of them can't pass the ball very well, but they are all better defenders than Puyol/Pique. This is kinda my point: Pique and Puyol only work as centre-halves for Barcelona because they can pass the ball very well and can kinda make a half-arsed attempt at defending...
I largely agree with this, although they are great because they fit the system. So it's not really a knock to them.
Please, these are all over exaggerations. With that wonderful little PL bias. None of these players would be any better even without their ability to pass the ball well in a Barca system. Based on pure defensive qualities alone they would all get skinned way more than the Pique's and Puyol's should they have to face good counter attacking play. With the space available to opposing teams the way they attack its always a danger regardless of who you are. The margin for error is next to nothing. The space has always been there, most attempts to hit them on the counter just havent been sharp enough. Naturally the weakness has finally come to be exposed consistently and Barca will have to do something to change that, but that has little to do with the defenders themselves..
pointing out stuff like "Puyol's positioning on the first goal is just nitpicking" What about Chelsea on the first goal ? What were the 10 defenders in the box doing after the corner? Was that not horrible positioning? Please dont nitpick to prove a point look at the averages wether against English opposition or otherwise and dont be miopic.
None of those players you mentioned will not get exposed time and time again with the space that is available on the counter. Theyd be chasing shadows even if they were bred into the system and got used to it.
However its pretty easy to put a Puyol or a Pique and in a conventional defensive system and have them perform better than the majority of those players. While none of those defenders would work with Barca, nearly all of those defenders can be easily replaced by a Puyol or a Pique. Ill give you a Dawson or a King (if he ever plays a game) everyone else is nothing special at all. Sitting back and heading the ball, while lunging in for tackles every now and then isnt exactly the embodiement of defending.
Its easy to ignore in hindsight that Chelsea while doing enough did not fail to give oppurtunities to Barca to win the game 10 men or otherwise. Just because its not made a big deal of by myself personally doesnt mean you should ignore it. I could make the same criticism. How lousy a defense do you have to be to let Barca in with 10 men in a 20 by 20 space ? See ? Its retarded fingerpointing at isolated stuff that has no bearing on the overall quality. I mean give Chelsea's attacking threat some credit. Lamps pass was ridiculously good (just like in the first game) and Ramires run and finish were good enough to deserve a goal against the best of defenses. As it stands this is still petty logic, "oh they never have to defend, so they arent really that good." Ofcourse they do and only in situations where the opponent has the entire pitch post half line to work with against 2-3 defenders. Your Huths and Hangelands would spend most of the time kissing the grass while attackers whiz past them.
Should it become a regular feature, yea sure then we can start talking.
i don't think it is 'petty logic' to suggest that barcelona's defenders have less practice defensively in big matches compared to other top teams due to their incredible amount of possession, nor that barca value offensive qualities more than defensive qualities, even in their fullbacks. but please, insert your stoke city jokes, they're endlessly funny!
Thats not the suggestion though is it, the arguement is that they are subpar defenders. That has nothing to do with how much practice they have. Which mind you they have accumulated quite a bit over the years.Theyre failure was in scoring, the way they play ofcourse theyll concede against good teams It takes an incredible amount of focus and discipline to defend when the "top 5" play midfield or whatever else everyone is suggesting does lose the ball or the pressing does fail. And it does. It happens in the league allllllll the time. People just havent seen it so they assume the defenders never actually do any defending. Yes they have incredible possession but the amount of times they bail theyre midfield out and avoid conceding (atleast over the past 3-4) years has been staggering. Puyol's years are catching up with him and Pique has had a bit of a dip so clearly there is a proble,. Barca needs defensive cover yea. But they are not bad defenders, and for a long period they have been probably amongst the best pairings. Thats why I say its retrospective bs to call them bad on the back of a bad few weeks, and discount all they've done before they had the supposedly godlike midfield.
im not sure about now, but i have very little question that puyol would tear it up in the EPL (although in all likelihood probably a bit less), and even though he lacks strength compared to other more built players he more than makes up for it with exceptional tenacity and leadership.
could you give me some examples of CBs in the EPL that you rate higher than both puyol and pique and that are not part of any team in the top 3-4? because from what i've gathered you seem to rate the entire league it seems higher than them which i find curious.
Tenacity and leadership are not as important as knowing where the fuck to stand. Puyol and Pique do not seem to know where they should be stood at any particular moment in time, unless it involves being offensive (which isn't actually that useful as a defender).
Outside the top 4?
Tottenham: King, Dawson, Nelsen (maybe). Chelsea: Terry, Cahill (would make an excellent Barcelona centre-half with his attacking mindset and passing ability). Everton: Jagielka. Liverpool: Skrtel. Fulham: Hangelaand (maybe) Sunderland: O'Shea, Brown (both maybes, ex-United so I am biased). Stoke: Huth. Aston Villa: Dunne. Blackburn: Samba (until he left, of course)
EDIT: Some of those teams have defensive midfielders who are probably better centre-halves than either Puyol or Pique. It's actually quite funny.
EDIT2: Not all of these players would be ideal for Barcelona because some of them can't pass the ball very well, but they are all better defenders than Puyol/Pique. This is kinda my point: Pique and Puyol only work as centre-halves for Barcelona because they can pass the ball very well and can kinda make a half-arsed attempt at defending...
I largely agree with this, although they are great because they fit the system. So it's not really a knock to them.
Please, these are all over exaggerations. With that wonderful little PL bias. None of these players would be any better even without their ability to pass the ball well in a Barca system. Based on pure defensive qualities alone they would all get skinned way more than the Pique's and Puyol's should they have to face good counter attacking play. With the space available to opposing teams the way they attack its always a danger regardless of who you are. The margin for error is next to nothing. The space has always been there, most attempts to hit them on the counter just havent been sharp enough. Naturally the weakness has finally come to be exposed consistently and Barca will have to do something to change that, but that has little to do with the defenders themselves..
pointing out stuff like "Puyol's positioning on the first goal is just nitpicking" What about Chelsea on the first goal ? What were the 10 defenders in the box doing after the corner? Was that not horrible positioning? Please dont nitpick to prove a point look at the averages wether against English opposition or otherwise and dont be miopic.
None of those players you mentioned will not get exposed time and time again with the space that is available on the counter. Theyd be chasing shadows even if they were bred into the system and got used to it.
However its pretty easy to put a Puyol or a Pique and in a conventional defensive system and have them perform better than the majority of those players. While none of those defenders would work with Barca, nearly all of those defenders can be easily replaced by a Puyol or a Pique. Ill give you a Dawson or a King (if he ever plays a game) everyone else is nothing special at all. Sitting back and heading the ball, while lunging in for tackles every now and then isnt exactly the embodiement of defending.
Its easy to ignore in hindsight that Chelsea while doing enough did not fail to give oppurtunities to Barca to win the game 10 men or otherwise. Just because its not made a big deal of by myself personally doesnt mean you should ignore it. I could make the same criticism. How lousy a defense do you have to be to let Barca in with 10 men in a 20 by 20 space ? See ? Its retarded fingerpointing at isolated stuff that has no bearing on the overall quality. I mean give Chelsea's attacking threat some credit. Lamps pass was ridiculously good (just like in the first game) and Ramires run and finish were good enough to deserve a goal against the best of defenses. As it stands this is still petty logic, "oh they never have to defend, so they arent really that good." Ofcourse they do and only in situations where the opponent has the entire pitch post half line to work with against 2-3 defenders. Your Huths and Hangelands would spend most of the time kissing the grass while attackers whiz past them.
Should it become a regular feature, yea sure then we can start talking.
You're right, some of those defenders aren't special, and that's kinda my point. Puyol and Pique are not good defenders.
However, I did also say that not all of those defenders I listed would work well for Barcelona, and that's despite them being better defensively than either Puyol or Pique. Why is this? Because Barcelona have a system that relies on every player being comfortable on the ball; it's quite likely that if you threw a Huth in there then their system wouldn't work as well as it does. Ultimately, you pick players to fit your style.
Funnily enough, your last line is symbolic of your lack of understanding about how defending works. Good defenders know where they should be stood, when to drop off people, when to stay tight to them, when to give themselves yards and when to show people inside or outside etc. They do not rely on pace to rectify positional errors, even if pace is always a good thing to have. And they certainly do not rely solely on pace to dispossess pacey opponents. Players that rely on speed to get them out of tight spots (like Pique) are not sustainable: For evidence, look at how suspect Evra's positioning looks now that his pace is diminishing.
Suggesting that Pique and Puyol lack defensive positional awareness (compared to other defenders) is just silly. Being a Barcelona defender requires more positional awareness because of the crazy high line they like to play against their opponents. That means that their usage of the offsides trap and awareness of each other's position has to be much higher than of that expected for other teams. When Chelsea tried to implement a high line under AVB, they struggled enormously (most notably in that 5-3 loss to Arsenal).
im not sure about now, but i have very little question that puyol would tear it up in the EPL (although in all likelihood probably a bit less), and even though he lacks strength compared to other more built players he more than makes up for it with exceptional tenacity and leadership.
could you give me some examples of CBs in the EPL that you rate higher than both puyol and pique and that are not part of any team in the top 3-4? because from what i've gathered you seem to rate the entire league it seems higher than them which i find curious.
Tenacity and leadership are not as important as knowing where the fuck to stand. Puyol and Pique do not seem to know where they should be stood at any particular moment in time, unless it involves being offensive (which isn't actually that useful as a defender).
Outside the top 4?
Tottenham: King, Dawson, Nelsen (maybe). Chelsea: Terry, Cahill (would make an excellent Barcelona centre-half with his attacking mindset and passing ability). Everton: Jagielka. Liverpool: Skrtel. Fulham: Hangelaand (maybe) Sunderland: O'Shea, Brown (both maybes, ex-United so I am biased). Stoke: Huth. Aston Villa: Dunne. Blackburn: Samba (until he left, of course)
EDIT: Some of those teams have defensive midfielders who are probably better centre-halves than either Puyol or Pique. It's actually quite funny.
EDIT2: Not all of these players would be ideal for Barcelona because some of them can't pass the ball very well, but they are all better defenders than Puyol/Pique. This is kinda my point: Pique and Puyol only work as centre-halves for Barcelona because they can pass the ball very well and can kinda make a half-arsed attempt at defending...
I largely agree with this, although they are great because they fit the system. So it's not really a knock to them.
Please, these are all over exaggerations. With that wonderful little PL bias. None of these players would be any better even without their ability to pass the ball well in a Barca system. Based on pure defensive qualities alone they would all get skinned way more than the Pique's and Puyol's should they have to face good counter attacking play. With the space available to opposing teams the way they attack its always a danger regardless of who you are. The margin for error is next to nothing. The space has always been there, most attempts to hit them on the counter just havent been sharp enough. Naturally the weakness has finally come to be exposed consistently and Barca will have to do something to change that, but that has little to do with the defenders themselves..
pointing out stuff like "Puyol's positioning on the first goal is just nitpicking" What about Chelsea on the first goal ? What were the 10 defenders in the box doing after the corner? Was that not horrible positioning? Please dont nitpick to prove a point look at the averages wether against English opposition or otherwise and dont be miopic.
None of those players you mentioned will not get exposed time and time again with the space that is available on the counter. Theyd be chasing shadows even if they were bred into the system and got used to it.
However its pretty easy to put a Puyol or a Pique and in a conventional defensive system and have them perform better than the majority of those players. While none of those defenders would work with Barca, nearly all of those defenders can be easily replaced by a Puyol or a Pique. Ill give you a Dawson or a King (if he ever plays a game) everyone else is nothing special at all. Sitting back and heading the ball, while lunging in for tackles every now and then isnt exactly the embodiement of defending.
Its easy to ignore in hindsight that Chelsea while doing enough did not fail to give oppurtunities to Barca to win the game 10 men or otherwise. Just because its not made a big deal of by myself personally doesnt mean you should ignore it. I could make the same criticism. How lousy a defense do you have to be to let Barca in with 10 men in a 20 by 20 space ? See ? Its retarded fingerpointing at isolated stuff that has no bearing on the overall quality. I mean give Chelsea's attacking threat some credit. Lamps pass was ridiculously good (just like in the first game) and Ramires run and finish were good enough to deserve a goal against the best of defenses. As it stands this is still petty logic, "oh they never have to defend, so they arent really that good." Ofcourse they do and only in situations where the opponent has the entire pitch post half line to work with against 2-3 defenders. Your Huths and Hangelands would spend most of the time kissing the grass while attackers whiz past them.
Should it become a regular feature, yea sure then we can start talking.
You're right, some of those defenders aren't special, and that's kinda my point. Puyol and Pique are not good defenders.
However, I did also say that not all of those defenders I listed would work well for Barcelona, and that's despite them being better defensively than either Puyol or Pique. Why is this? Because Barcelona have a system that relies on every player being comfortable on the ball; it's quite likely that if you threw a Huth in there then their system wouldn't work as well as it does. Ultimately, you pick players to fit your style.
Funnily enough, your last line is symbolic of your lack of understanding about how defending works. Good defenders know where they should be stood, when to drop off people, when to stay tight to them, when to give themselves yards and when to show people inside or outside etc. They do not rely on pace to rectify positional errors, even if pace is always a good thing to have. And they certainly do not rely solely on pace to dispossess pacey opponents. Players that rely on speed to get them out of tight spots (like Pique) are not sustainable: For evidence, look at how suspect Evra's positioning looks now that his pace is diminishing.
Suggesting that Pique and Puyol lack defensive positional awareness (compared to other defenders) is just silly. Being a Barcelona defender requires more positional awareness because of the crazy high line they like to play against their opponents. That means that their usage of the offsides trap and awareness of each other's position has to be much higher than of that expected for other teams. When Chelsea tried to implement a high line under AVB, they struggled enormously (most notably in that 5-3 loss to Arsenal).
You know, both have won 3 CL, 4-5 Ligas, a World Cup and a Euro, but i'm sure they could learn a lot from Dunne or Huth. Or not
On April 25 2012 19:16 HwangjaeTerran wrote: I guess I want RM to win. I'm no fan of either team or any of the players but Robben makes the scale tip in RM's favor. And I seriously hold a grudge for that Lahm guy too.
Go Christina, just this once I lubs you <3<3
I really dislike Robben too, but what do you have against Lahm?
He's annoyingly proficient and not one of those normal crazy full backs that are kinda terrible. Typically Germanic.
Ozil, Benzema, Ronaldo are way too strong for Bayern' defence.
On April 25 2012 19:16 HwangjaeTerran wrote: I guess I want RM to win. I'm no fan of either team or any of the players but Robben makes the scale tip in RM's favor. And I seriously hold a grudge for that Lahm guy too.
Go Christina, just this once I lubs you <3<3
I really dislike Robben too, but what do you have against Lahm?
He's annoyingly proficient and not one of those normal crazy full backs that are kinda terrible. Typically Germanic.
Ozil, Benzema, Ronaldo are way too strong for Bayern' defence.
I don't see why anyone would hate lahm too lol, never seen him doing stupid shit and he's a great player.
On April 25 2012 23:15 Pandemona wrote: Couldn't help myself ♥
It's not funny when Torres always was Puyols kryptonite. He'd always rape Puyol in his Atletico days.
Yeah but no one thought he would, no one really talking about him before 2nd leg. Then he scored a goal in stoppage time to top off a wonder semi final for Chelsea fans.
EPT
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