|
O, on the starting thread:
1. You whine about hidden expos etc. and how about NaDa's proxy facts with wraiths vs zerg? He didn't scout it and was then surprised by wraiths with no anti air himself <--- SC pro's make same mistakes as WC3 pros
2. More on being surprised by units. Did you ever notice that when UD plays OR and orc goes mass vyw while UD has ghouls/statues only he rarely switches to anti air and keeps pumping out ghouls and aboms? It's all because in WC3 you don't always need anti air to counter it (your heroes can deal with some air and your opponent while going air will hardly have much ground forces so your units will rape him there, it's easier to lose hero to ground than to air).
3. Creeps behaviour and item drops aren't totally random (creeps will always behave the same way on certain situations and items drop from really small random pool on certain maps imo, on Plunder Isle for example when you creep dragons you can get one of 3 items). So this isn't as much luck based as you think.
|
In SC things go unscouted much less. Are you saying otherwise?
|
I'm not, I just wanted to point out that the things he was talking about happen in SC too. And they happen much less for the reasons stated above:
1. cheaper and expendable scouting
2. more scouting options
3. faster unit movement
4. in SC you MUST counter your enemies unit choices while in WC3 you don't really need to as long as they won't rape you in a second
|
I agree,SC players have harder time playing,I dont like WC3 gamers,they are so retired ...
|
retired or retarded?
|
I didn't say anything about hidden tech, it's easy to be fucked by hidden tech simply because ...well,it's hidden, I was talking about normal unit choices, tech that is just sitting in your opponent's main, imho there's no excuse to let something like get go unoticed in high level play.
|
war3 is maybe 5% luck, luck will practically never determine the winner in a game
|
hehe, speaking about luck: I played a game against some nelf on the ladder couple of days ago and I managed to perform "kharmic strike". My lev 5 blademaster killed his lev 6 warden and died at the same time ^^ (you could see souls from both heroes rising from their bodies) I lost the game but had much fun with it
and on hidden tech etc. - you don't really need to scout your opponent all the time in war3 since there are no real hard counters there and you can't switch tech easily. Also due to a bit slower game pace even if your oponent will manage to surprise you with some unit choice in most cases you will have enough time to counter it. That's why you don't see so much scouting there.
|
There's a lot of reasons why the game may seem like, based upon the logic and laws set by StarCraft, that the players simply, well, suck.
Some say that WarCraft 3 players cannot macro, and they sometimes get 1000 gold needlessly. Perhaps. But, if they were to spend it, they would sure as hell lose the game faster than a Terran loses to a 5-expo Protoss.
The key in WarCraft 3 isn't production; it's timing. Making Ghouls and raising your supply to close to upkeep MIGHT give you more units, but when it comes time for those Aboms and Destroyers, you're gonna wish you never made them. It's all about knowing when to produce, and why.
As far as scouting goes, PART of the problem of scouting is that there is very little cost-effective scouting in the game. Peons/Peasants are incredibly slow and are free exp. Wisps work, but sometimes even they die quite easily. Other units can be used and often are, but doing so will not always prove beneficial.
For example, even if you scout an opponent and know exactly what they're doing, that does little good if you do not have the skill to stop what they're doing. WarCraft is less "this strategy counters that strategy" and more "this isn't going to be an easy strategy to stop, I've gotta focus everything I've got on outmicroing this guy."
Scouting is of course vital to finding hidden expansions, but again mobility is sometimes a key factor in why scouting isn't seen as often in Brood War.
Under the laws of StarCraft, yes WarCraft players suck. But under the laws of WarCraft, StarCraft players are even worse. The goals and complexity of the two games are different beyond direct comparison.
|
United States37500 Posts
Nice post Orlandu. And to elaborate on the timing issue he's referring to, it has a lot to do with the Upkeep system and the Hero/Item system. You're allowed to hoard up gold usually because you don't want to break into Low Upkeep too early in the game, while in SC, there is absolutely no restraint as to use up all your resources to produce and macro. Going into Low Upkeep too early is an extreme disadvantage because while you do get a couple extra units more than the enemy, you are losing a large, cumulative amount of gold per peon trip. Also gold can easily be blown off on Scrolls of Healing and Protection, something that helps in battles tremendously, which is non-analogous to anything SC has to offer.
|
WC3 adds a whole bunch of elements to game and subtracts some others. Macro, for example, is practically pointless compared to StarCraft. However, things you might not pick up on while watching a replay like timing of attacks, micro, creeping patterns, etc are either non existent or much less important in SC. To truely understand what goes into a player's decisions in WC3 can only be appreciated with some experience in WC3 at least. SC is far more straightforward.
I do feel that WC3 gamers need to figure out some better scouting. I rarely notice people really going to any great lengths to see what tech/units their opponent is going. Also, I think there's a big niche for largely unused things, like mass island expand, that will do very well against someone who doesn't scout/counter correctly because they go cookie cutter.
|
I think scouting is pretty important, I like to know what hero the enemy has (especially say a NE or orc, since NE's could be using a DH/warden/beastmaster/firelord/panda/maybe KOTG as first hero, while orc could be going FS or blademaster, or even power leveling a solo TC) and knowing their position can be very important to me as a human player...
I like to expand fairly early so if I know their position I can place it appropriately as I see fit, or if say I know they are cross map on LT, I know I can most likely get my fast expo off without a hitch as to say, a bad position such as me at 6 and they at 9 where my expo is easily harrassed.
You can also spot specific strategies, like if I see an UD player building a graveyard it means they will be using fiends, which means I should go more footmen/defend etc. then going for rifles. A mid-game scout will usually tell me if they are going FAST destroyers or slightly delayed destroyers, although you don't see it often in 'pro' games you can also see if they are trying to 'necromancer blitz' you. As well you don't see it often in pro games but you can see if they are going to try power level a solo DL for fast infernal (pretty devastating especially vs hu). If you see a early shop (which is actually a lot more common) I can usually expect a solo DK coming in and harrassing my workers, and making skeletons with a rod of necromancy.
If a NE is skipping AoW, or making AoW/hall at same time I know they are either teching or going huntress, or a single AoW with no hall probably means Archers to dual lore tech.
Which also helps because I can tower rush a NE that skips or builds a late AoW  and if they are going altar before AoW I can expect a neutral hero. You can also spot fast expo's on maps like LT because they'll build a tree of life on the ramp.0
Vs. orc, if I can keep my peasant in his base until I see exactly what he's doing, EARLY shop will probably mean he's gonna stack a blademaster with potions and harrass, barracks before tech means he'll probably harrass with grunt support, tech before rax (as in building rax as he techs) means he's probably gonna harrass with solo FS and creep later on with solo grunts or grunts with a TC.
Skipping raxes entirely means I can probably expect a dual beastiary wyvern tech. Fast fortress is so rare so I don't know wtf to expect, but if he's got a blademaster and completely locking me down I could think possible batriders with liquid fire O_O
vs human I will scout them so I know if I want to check for a fast expo right away (you can usually tell right away because his hero will attack you while he summons militia).
in huvshu it's also nice to know if he's going hardcore tech to gryphons/knights, or staying mainly with breakers etc.
Scouting their early strategies has a lot of benefits in relation to creeping as well, if I see a NE going AoW before altar it USUALLY means they're going a 'creeping' hero like a beastmaster/firelord and will POWER creep like crazy, as opposed to altar first with a warden/DH which would usually be used to harrass me early. So I can either use the time to creep safely without fear of jacking or actively try and creep jack them.
Then there's also the whole, scouting your opponents creeping pattern to possibly set up a creep jack... Like on turtle rock, say they're at a bottom area, if I see them going 'left along the bottom' I can probably jack them at the 2 ogres/2 trolls camp, or if they are orc and creeping I can usually tell if they are trying to get lightning shield drops to abuse me T_T.
Another example if I see a human at 9 on LT going down to the 6 o'clock natural expo, it probably means they're going to hide an expo there... because it's not really a 'normal' spot to creep (most people go to the middle)
Another example on LT, if I go into the middle and find that none of the four corners have been creeped I can usually safely say they have cleared their own expo, and are quite possibly going to expand. Either that or they are just slow
Then there's neat little tricks people can do (i know they're not very fanciful, so don't bother me about this...) like 'skipping' creeps, for example the shops on LT, you can walk past them and creep the corner mines (and maybe set up a hidden expo)
So yeah, enough rambling. Point being: scouting in war3 is damn important (at least to me?)
|
I guess you people are assuming I'm the kind of person that thinks war3 is a newb game bla bla bla (the kind of rambling you would expect from a bw fan), well, I'm not, I'm taking the time to educate myself in war3 and I really do enjoy it and realize most of the stuff posted here, my one and only argument is that players even at the top level still make more mistakes that what I would expect them to do, that's it.
EDIT: I'll try to explain it a little better: you know that feeling u get when you're watching a Nada vod, or oov, or Boxer, someone like that? that feeling like, everything is taken care of, every single detail is taken into account, nothing is left unthought about. When watching a war3 replay between the best players in the world u don't have that feeling, not even remotely close to that.
|
I know, my post wasn't really directed at you, mainly at the whole idea of scouting not being important at all in War3.
Remember that the games that I think you watched were games that were 'for fun' basically, like the IGE.com racewar had no prize money I'm pretty sure, so the players might not be playing at 100% of their capabilities...
Watch the finals of the recent ECG between grubby and tod... grubby plays damn well near perfect, and pretty much molests tod 2-0. Even tod was playing very very well, but unfortunately grubbys orc dominates human pretty badly =/
|
I agree that WC3 progamers frequently aren't super impressive. Top Europeans like Grubby & co seem to play just as well in replays. Some progamers just don't seem really deserving of it when there are many WC3L level players that could at least give them a strong run for their money.
|
I sometimes feel the same way inkblot, but then you look at grubby/tod/zeus/fury/madfrog/dominator/heman/insomnia etc's stay in korea... none were overly successfull, save maybe madfrog for winning WWI (although there was only 1-2 koreans in that tourny right?)
I think when the 4K people were in the leagues Tod might of been the only one to make it out of his group or something?
|
"EDIT: I'll try to explain it a little better: you know that feeling u get when you're watching a Nada vod, or oov, or Boxer, someone like that? that feeling like, everything is taken care of, every single detail is taken into account, nothing is left unthought about. When watching a war3 replay between the best players in the world u don't have that feeling, not even remotely close to that." well i think i got this feeling when fov de_STROYED suho on trock in WEG. yep that was pretty nice :|
|
or hell, even when moon destroyed fov in the latest IGE race war thing, i know somoene above pointed out a mistake like how he was accidentally attacking his DH with a AP and stuff, but the way he kept avoiding surrounds with his hunts/DH and then all of a sudden fov's DK just DIES, and then you look at fov's base and you see AP's being built, and there's a proxy AoW sending in siege etc. etc... seemed effortless on moons behalf
|
When it comes to the mistakes we must all agree that Grubby is the one who makes the least mistakes imo. He's gameplay is amazing and everything he does fits the situation perfectly. Although most players will consider him slow (~180 apm average) I think that the truth is he just doesn't do anything that's not necessary. I love to watch his reps and actions like his Shadowhunter bbeing under attack going on move/attack/move and this way avoiding attacks from enemy while attacking enemies when cooldown is complete. Perhaps what Grub does isn't really art but more like true craftsmanship. I am willing to give him the title Master Craftsman for his gameplay and I must admit that sometimes I like craftsmanship more than art
|
grubby is indeed quite perfect sometimes... his LAN tourny results have been pretty decent too! WCG 2004 champion, CyberXGames winner, European cyber games champion, CPL turkey champion
didn't he do well in either acon4 or ESWC as well?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
