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Well, they don't exactly suck (hey, I had to get your attention somehow) but they are so much weaker than what I was used to see in bw, maybe I'm being to hard on people that haven't spend a glimpse of the time bw progamers have playing the game but they make a lot of mistakes that I have to say aren't very "professional".
After watching a little less than 100 pro-replays (I've recently started playing the game), I've seen to many hidden expansions, scouting mistakes, micro mistakes, etc. While I can understand micro mistakes specially in a game where lag is much more of an issue the other two are imho unacceptable in high level play independently of what rts we're talking about.
so...I'me done whining
EDIT: I realize allowing hidden expensions is a scouting mistake, but what I meant as a scouting mistake is being surprised by your opponent's unit choice for exemple, stuff like that.
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Hidden expansions also occur in SC. Consider the fact that scouting is much harder in war3 - a retarded game decision.
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starcraft has been perfected for 10 fucking years
war3 has been around like 3 or 4?
think about how newbie the best starcraft players were in 1999
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but SC had no replays ~_~
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United States37500 Posts
I'm not sure what pro replays you're talking about, but if you watch Korean replays or WC3L replays, they are all pretty good for the most part. Scouting mistakes and micro mistakes, I'm pretty sure there are the same mistakes as in SC too. Hidden expansions are harder to check due to overall slower units.
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On March 14 2005 00:02 NeoIllusions wrote:
I'm not sure what pro replays you're talking about, but if you watch Korean replays or WC3L replays, they are all pretty good for the most part. Scouting mistakes and micro mistakes, I'm pretty sure there are the same mistakes as in SC too. Hidden expansions are harder to check due to overall slower units.
most of the reps I saw are from wc3l, I also saw this recent race war and some random korean replays i could find. And even guys like Spirit_Moon, whose status right now must be like..god-like does stuff like not scout his opponent at all and be surprised by 8+ gargs with absolutly 0 anti-air, I mean, that's coming from the best player in the world. And as people have said before me (and as I said myself in the first post) I realize bw programers have spent a lot more time playing bw than this guys playing war3, the reason I made this thread was simply because it surprised me how (genericly) low the level is.
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United States37500 Posts
Um, Moon goes archers at tier 1 90% of the time. I rarely see him get hunts, especially against NE vS UD, so to say 0 anti-air is kinda stretching it. And if you're talking about the Replays.Net IGE Race Wars, MooN went 3-1 against the UDs and took out 4K^FoV which is probably top 3 or maybe even the best UD at the moment. MooN was taken down by MYM]GoStop in a game where GoStop clearly outmicro'ed MooN.
MooN towered rushed FoV... NE tower rushing. You find me another replay of another NE player doing that to FoV and winning and I'll take back everything I just said.
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if you're referring to when the gnoll wood game where moon went mass bears vs. gargs, you've completely missed the mark. bears counter the expo, and then venom orb on DH and the panda breath can handle the gargs nicely. nothing really dies because of rejuv + staff of tp. moon had it all worked out.
but besides that yeah I agree BW progamers are on a much godlier level. but don't blame the players, blame the game! i.e. the room of the game that allows for full capability of a gamer to be realized. if war3 allows a max skill/everything pool of "100" and it's "hard" to get to 80, while it's "very hard" to get to 90 and "extremely super duper hard" to get to 95, compare that with if sc's "pool" is "1000" and now it's "hard" to get to 800, "very hard" to get to 900 and "extremely super duper hard" to get to 950. if that's able to be followed at all, rofl. who knows maybe i'm just talking out of my ass, it's 3:30 am :[
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United States37500 Posts
I didn't watch all the IGE replays so thanks Aether for covering for me. And sadly to say, most of the UD units (probably not including Dests) can be totally countered by NE/Tavern heroes. If you want to say that aspect of the game is imba/unfair/lame, I won't really argue with you on that part. But to say that MooN is subpar...? You really need to play more of the game and then come back and check MooN's replays. He rarely makes any mistakes.
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United States37500 Posts
n/m, i completely misread Aether's edited section... haha
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On March 14 2005 00:26 NeoIllusions wrote:
Um, Moon goes archers at tier 1 90% of the time. I rarely see him get hunts, especially against NE vS UD, so to say 0 anti-air is kinda stretching it. And if you're talking about the Replays.Net IGE Race Wars, MooN went 3-1 against the UDs and took out 4K^FoV which is probably top 3 or maybe even the best UD at the moment. MooN was taken down by MYM]GoStop in a game where GoStop clearly outmicro'ed MooN.
MooN towered rushed FoV... NE tower rushing. You find me another replay of another NE player doing that to FoV and winning and I'll take back everything I just said.
u completly missed the point, I'm not saying Moon isn't as good as people say he is, I'm saying his great, damn did u see him buying the dust before (whoever that orc guy was) in turtle rock to keep him from revealing his injured hunts? My point was not that Moon is overrated, simply that war3 programers have a much lower level than I expected before watching their reps.
PS: I'll look into the games again to make sure I'm not confusing replays and that it was indeed Moon in that replay, it was a lost temple game, either way, if it wasn't him it was some other NE programer involved in those series.
PPS: Moon also targeted his DH with his ap in the game vs FoV, not that that's a big mistake, it's just a missclick and the man is only human, it's just a "^^" note 
EDIT: it's against Susiria and he has like 3archers, but I guess it's kind of obvious he was caught unprepared, but still, don't put too much enfasis on this example, it wasn't my point to undervalue Moon.
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United States37500 Posts
Haha, well... "WC3 progamers are at a lower level (compared to SC)", keep in mind that SC has been out longer and SC pros have refined micro/macro/multitasking skills to an art. Keep watching replays from WC3L and Korean VODs and you'll slowly appreciate what WC has to offer.
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I LIKE that progamers dont look like they are in god mode. If they were any better I would slap myself for being so much worse than them.
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wc3 gameplay is much more determined by spontaneous decisions. basically you run around the map (which is heavily influenced by creeping patterns) with your 1-2 control groups and execute micro in fights. that's more or less how far the strategical depth of wc3 reaches.
in bw there are way more strategical possibilites like e.g. map control, feints etc. and therefore you put a lot of thought in every of your next moves.
it's playing instinctively (background creeping patterns) with WC3 vs. playing strategically (background map control, perfect BOs etc ..) with SC.
of course both games need a good portion of either instinct and strategy but with wc3 the stress lays on the first and with sc on the latter.
spontaneous players make more mistakes. that's basically what i wanted to say -_-;;
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I can see where you're coming from Kobayashi... I still get pissed off when I see a supposed professional make a simple yet costly mistake that ends up biting them in the ass and losing the game for them. Like attack-moving and not manually microing units. Or letting heroes/armies stand idle and not creeping or whatever. Or trying to counter dual-AoW mass hunts with solo beastiary-produced wyvern. Or foregoing macromanagement and letting gold bank up to 900 before deciding to make buildings/units.
Stupid mistakes like that
edit: forgot a word
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On March 13 2005 23:05 Kobayashi wrote:
Well, they don't exactly suck (hey, I had to get your attention somehow) but they are so much weaker than what I was used to see in bw, maybe I'm being to hard on people that haven't spend a glimpse of the time bw progamers have playing the game but they make a lot of mistakes that I have to say aren't very "professional".
Remember MMI lately? Europe won because Zeus, Pusan and Legionnaire lost their games.
I sometimes don't like to scout myself: during fight you try not to lose any units and when you scout you have good chances to give free xp to get no information.
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We all know this, I was watching reps from WCG 04 in W3 and its so slow and boring, they have over 1K and theyre not building anything omg.
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Only post that made any sense about wc3 was from requiem^^ If ur not in the game and u just think hey bw is better then u won't get why these mistakes or misclicks happen.
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I think WC3's problem is just the way the game is designed. It's a very slow and tedious game compared to SC and scouting really isn't something that the game itself encourages... When you scout in WC3 you either have to waste an early skill point better spent on combat skills from a valuable hero character, build and send off a useless unit that travels about as quick as a slug and more often than not end up giving your opponent's hero some free XP, or spend valuable resources researching something retarted like Huntress' owls... Granted, they're very useful if used right, but it's just very costly in the beginning of the game to do such things. I'd definitely say that early scouting is not exactly something encouraged by the game design of WC3 and because it lacks a method of scouting early for cheap, it often leads to situations such as the one described where a player may go minimal antiair only to be hit with a horde of air units. I'm sure the pro players will eventually start figuring out some more effective patterns of scouting, but it's just not that huge a part of the game at the moment.
When I play, I always use a skillpoint on my PoM's owl first thing... It's about the best scouting the game offers in my humble opinion. But yeah... I don't really like the game too much. It's just too slow for me. =T
Also as for the relative level of WC3 pros in comparison to SC pros, I will totally admit that there is a much bigger gap between an SC noob and SC pro than there is between a WC3 noob and a WC3 pro and there is good reason for this.
1. SC has been out for a great deal longer than WC3 so the micro aspects of the game along with most effective build orders and scouting patterns have pretty much been perfected whereas WC3's metagame is still pretty much evolving and growing.
2. WC3 is a much more difficult game to master and be consistently successful at than SC. I know I might get flamed for this, but I hate WC3 and I'm admitting this outright. The hero system in WC3 brings many new aspects to the game that aren't in SC as do the creeping system and the abundance of different spells. In SC, everyone is pretty much on equal ground. There are units, spells, and upgrades, but you don't have to worry about something like "Hero Level" and "Creeping". Your concern is on your opponent, not the various seals and tigers that roam the land. In WC3, creeping is a very big part of the early game and your creeping patterns will determine a LOT in terms of the flow of the rest of the game. Decisions such as "Do I pull out a couple more normal units? Or should I make another hero?" don't really appear in SC because no single unit in SC has the battle potential that a high level Hero has and at the same time sucks as much as a LVL1 Hero...
*Just a personal note on the Hero system, I think it's a failure because every LVL10 hero will have identical skills to every other LVL10 hero of the same type. They should've made it more like D2 where you were offered more skills than you could possibly learn... That would've introduced so much more in terms of hero-based strategy and micromanagement.
3. WC3 is much, much more luck-based than SC. This also testifies to the consistency of the game. The types of items you get, how the creep AI responds to you, etc. These things affect the flow of the game greatly. SC is a much more solid game in terms of overall strategy.
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Conclusion: WC3 is just a very different game from SC. They may both be RTS games, but WC3 is somewhat less of a solid strategy game and more of a decision making/micromanaging game. In SC, you pretty much know what you have and nothing is randomly given to you by the map. This is not true in WC3. WC3 is a much younger game that has more of a "well, I'll give you this, now what are you going to do with it?" feel because of the fact that your opponent and yourself aren't the only two elements to worry about.
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I wouldn't say that makes WC3 harder to master at all. If you watch a fpvod of sc and wc3, you will get an idea of who is having a harder time playing.
But I also hate how in wc3 there are so many luck based things, especially considered you are punished for scouting.
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O, on the starting thread:
1. You whine about hidden expos etc. and how about NaDa's proxy facts with wraiths vs zerg? He didn't scout it and was then surprised by wraiths with no anti air himself <--- SC pro's make same mistakes as WC3 pros
2. More on being surprised by units. Did you ever notice that when UD plays OR and orc goes mass vyw while UD has ghouls/statues only he rarely switches to anti air and keeps pumping out ghouls and aboms? It's all because in WC3 you don't always need anti air to counter it (your heroes can deal with some air and your opponent while going air will hardly have much ground forces so your units will rape him there, it's easier to lose hero to ground than to air).
3. Creeps behaviour and item drops aren't totally random (creeps will always behave the same way on certain situations and items drop from really small random pool on certain maps imo, on Plunder Isle for example when you creep dragons you can get one of 3 items). So this isn't as much luck based as you think.
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In SC things go unscouted much less. Are you saying otherwise?
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I'm not, I just wanted to point out that the things he was talking about happen in SC too. And they happen much less for the reasons stated above:
1. cheaper and expendable scouting
2. more scouting options
3. faster unit movement
4. in SC you MUST counter your enemies unit choices while in WC3 you don't really need to as long as they won't rape you in a second
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I agree,SC players have harder time playing,I dont like WC3 gamers,they are so retired ...
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retired or retarded?
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I didn't say anything about hidden tech, it's easy to be fucked by hidden tech simply because ...well,it's hidden, I was talking about normal unit choices, tech that is just sitting in your opponent's main, imho there's no excuse to let something like get go unoticed in high level play.
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war3 is maybe 5% luck, luck will practically never determine the winner in a game
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hehe, speaking about luck: I played a game against some nelf on the ladder couple of days ago and I managed to perform "kharmic strike". My lev 5 blademaster killed his lev 6 warden and died at the same time ^^ (you could see souls from both heroes rising from their bodies) I lost the game but had much fun with it
and on hidden tech etc. - you don't really need to scout your opponent all the time in war3 since there are no real hard counters there and you can't switch tech easily. Also due to a bit slower game pace even if your oponent will manage to surprise you with some unit choice in most cases you will have enough time to counter it. That's why you don't see so much scouting there.
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There's a lot of reasons why the game may seem like, based upon the logic and laws set by StarCraft, that the players simply, well, suck.
Some say that WarCraft 3 players cannot macro, and they sometimes get 1000 gold needlessly. Perhaps. But, if they were to spend it, they would sure as hell lose the game faster than a Terran loses to a 5-expo Protoss.
The key in WarCraft 3 isn't production; it's timing. Making Ghouls and raising your supply to close to upkeep MIGHT give you more units, but when it comes time for those Aboms and Destroyers, you're gonna wish you never made them. It's all about knowing when to produce, and why.
As far as scouting goes, PART of the problem of scouting is that there is very little cost-effective scouting in the game. Peons/Peasants are incredibly slow and are free exp. Wisps work, but sometimes even they die quite easily. Other units can be used and often are, but doing so will not always prove beneficial.
For example, even if you scout an opponent and know exactly what they're doing, that does little good if you do not have the skill to stop what they're doing. WarCraft is less "this strategy counters that strategy" and more "this isn't going to be an easy strategy to stop, I've gotta focus everything I've got on outmicroing this guy."
Scouting is of course vital to finding hidden expansions, but again mobility is sometimes a key factor in why scouting isn't seen as often in Brood War.
Under the laws of StarCraft, yes WarCraft players suck. But under the laws of WarCraft, StarCraft players are even worse. The goals and complexity of the two games are different beyond direct comparison.
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United States37500 Posts
Nice post Orlandu. And to elaborate on the timing issue he's referring to, it has a lot to do with the Upkeep system and the Hero/Item system. You're allowed to hoard up gold usually because you don't want to break into Low Upkeep too early in the game, while in SC, there is absolutely no restraint as to use up all your resources to produce and macro. Going into Low Upkeep too early is an extreme disadvantage because while you do get a couple extra units more than the enemy, you are losing a large, cumulative amount of gold per peon trip. Also gold can easily be blown off on Scrolls of Healing and Protection, something that helps in battles tremendously, which is non-analogous to anything SC has to offer.
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WC3 adds a whole bunch of elements to game and subtracts some others. Macro, for example, is practically pointless compared to StarCraft. However, things you might not pick up on while watching a replay like timing of attacks, micro, creeping patterns, etc are either non existent or much less important in SC. To truely understand what goes into a player's decisions in WC3 can only be appreciated with some experience in WC3 at least. SC is far more straightforward.
I do feel that WC3 gamers need to figure out some better scouting. I rarely notice people really going to any great lengths to see what tech/units their opponent is going. Also, I think there's a big niche for largely unused things, like mass island expand, that will do very well against someone who doesn't scout/counter correctly because they go cookie cutter.
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I think scouting is pretty important, I like to know what hero the enemy has (especially say a NE or orc, since NE's could be using a DH/warden/beastmaster/firelord/panda/maybe KOTG as first hero, while orc could be going FS or blademaster, or even power leveling a solo TC) and knowing their position can be very important to me as a human player...
I like to expand fairly early so if I know their position I can place it appropriately as I see fit, or if say I know they are cross map on LT, I know I can most likely get my fast expo off without a hitch as to say, a bad position such as me at 6 and they at 9 where my expo is easily harrassed.
You can also spot specific strategies, like if I see an UD player building a graveyard it means they will be using fiends, which means I should go more footmen/defend etc. then going for rifles. A mid-game scout will usually tell me if they are going FAST destroyers or slightly delayed destroyers, although you don't see it often in 'pro' games you can also see if they are trying to 'necromancer blitz' you. As well you don't see it often in pro games but you can see if they are going to try power level a solo DL for fast infernal (pretty devastating especially vs hu). If you see a early shop (which is actually a lot more common) I can usually expect a solo DK coming in and harrassing my workers, and making skeletons with a rod of necromancy.
If a NE is skipping AoW, or making AoW/hall at same time I know they are either teching or going huntress, or a single AoW with no hall probably means Archers to dual lore tech.
Which also helps because I can tower rush a NE that skips or builds a late AoW and if they are going altar before AoW I can expect a neutral hero. You can also spot fast expo's on maps like LT because they'll build a tree of life on the ramp.0
Vs. orc, if I can keep my peasant in his base until I see exactly what he's doing, EARLY shop will probably mean he's gonna stack a blademaster with potions and harrass, barracks before tech means he'll probably harrass with grunt support, tech before rax (as in building rax as he techs) means he's probably gonna harrass with solo FS and creep later on with solo grunts or grunts with a TC.
Skipping raxes entirely means I can probably expect a dual beastiary wyvern tech. Fast fortress is so rare so I don't know wtf to expect, but if he's got a blademaster and completely locking me down I could think possible batriders with liquid fire O_O
vs human I will scout them so I know if I want to check for a fast expo right away (you can usually tell right away because his hero will attack you while he summons militia).
in huvshu it's also nice to know if he's going hardcore tech to gryphons/knights, or staying mainly with breakers etc.
Scouting their early strategies has a lot of benefits in relation to creeping as well, if I see a NE going AoW before altar it USUALLY means they're going a 'creeping' hero like a beastmaster/firelord and will POWER creep like crazy, as opposed to altar first with a warden/DH which would usually be used to harrass me early. So I can either use the time to creep safely without fear of jacking or actively try and creep jack them.
Then there's also the whole, scouting your opponents creeping pattern to possibly set up a creep jack... Like on turtle rock, say they're at a bottom area, if I see them going 'left along the bottom' I can probably jack them at the 2 ogres/2 trolls camp, or if they are orc and creeping I can usually tell if they are trying to get lightning shield drops to abuse me T_T.
Another example if I see a human at 9 on LT going down to the 6 o'clock natural expo, it probably means they're going to hide an expo there... because it's not really a 'normal' spot to creep (most people go to the middle)
Another example on LT, if I go into the middle and find that none of the four corners have been creeped I can usually safely say they have cleared their own expo, and are quite possibly going to expand. Either that or they are just slow
Then there's neat little tricks people can do (i know they're not very fanciful, so don't bother me about this...) like 'skipping' creeps, for example the shops on LT, you can walk past them and creep the corner mines (and maybe set up a hidden expo)
So yeah, enough rambling. Point being: scouting in war3 is damn important (at least to me?)
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I guess you people are assuming I'm the kind of person that thinks war3 is a newb game bla bla bla (the kind of rambling you would expect from a bw fan), well, I'm not, I'm taking the time to educate myself in war3 and I really do enjoy it and realize most of the stuff posted here, my one and only argument is that players even at the top level still make more mistakes that what I would expect them to do, that's it.
EDIT: I'll try to explain it a little better: you know that feeling u get when you're watching a Nada vod, or oov, or Boxer, someone like that? that feeling like, everything is taken care of, every single detail is taken into account, nothing is left unthought about. When watching a war3 replay between the best players in the world u don't have that feeling, not even remotely close to that.
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I know, my post wasn't really directed at you, mainly at the whole idea of scouting not being important at all in War3.
Remember that the games that I think you watched were games that were 'for fun' basically, like the IGE.com racewar had no prize money I'm pretty sure, so the players might not be playing at 100% of their capabilities...
Watch the finals of the recent ECG between grubby and tod... grubby plays damn well near perfect, and pretty much molests tod 2-0. Even tod was playing very very well, but unfortunately grubbys orc dominates human pretty badly =/
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I agree that WC3 progamers frequently aren't super impressive. Top Europeans like Grubby & co seem to play just as well in replays. Some progamers just don't seem really deserving of it when there are many WC3L level players that could at least give them a strong run for their money.
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I sometimes feel the same way inkblot, but then you look at grubby/tod/zeus/fury/madfrog/dominator/heman/insomnia etc's stay in korea... none were overly successfull, save maybe madfrog for winning WWI (although there was only 1-2 koreans in that tourny right?)
I think when the 4K people were in the leagues Tod might of been the only one to make it out of his group or something?
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"EDIT: I'll try to explain it a little better: you know that feeling u get when you're watching a Nada vod, or oov, or Boxer, someone like that? that feeling like, everything is taken care of, every single detail is taken into account, nothing is left unthought about. When watching a war3 replay between the best players in the world u don't have that feeling, not even remotely close to that." well i think i got this feeling when fov de_STROYED suho on trock in WEG. yep that was pretty nice :|
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or hell, even when moon destroyed fov in the latest IGE race war thing, i know somoene above pointed out a mistake like how he was accidentally attacking his DH with a AP and stuff, but the way he kept avoiding surrounds with his hunts/DH and then all of a sudden fov's DK just DIES, and then you look at fov's base and you see AP's being built, and there's a proxy AoW sending in siege etc. etc... seemed effortless on moons behalf
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When it comes to the mistakes we must all agree that Grubby is the one who makes the least mistakes imo. He's gameplay is amazing and everything he does fits the situation perfectly. Although most players will consider him slow (~180 apm average) I think that the truth is he just doesn't do anything that's not necessary. I love to watch his reps and actions like his Shadowhunter bbeing under attack going on move/attack/move and this way avoiding attacks from enemy while attacking enemies when cooldown is complete. Perhaps what Grub does isn't really art but more like true craftsmanship. I am willing to give him the title Master Craftsman for his gameplay and I must admit that sometimes I like craftsmanship more than art
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grubby is indeed quite perfect sometimes... his LAN tourny results have been pretty decent too! WCG 2004 champion, CyberXGames winner, European cyber games champion, CPL turkey champion
didn't he do well in either acon4 or ESWC as well?
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ESWC 2004 he missed, and Acon4 he got knocked out fairly early, same with WWI. But basically everything else in TFT he's dominated it seems like.
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no 'anti' war3 responses towards my statement of war3 is maybe only 5% luck? or my 'posting is definately necessary and worth it' statements?
i always seem to join discussions too late 
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Dealer
Sweden1368 Posts
On March 13 2005 23:40 FroZZoR wrote:
starcraft has been perfected for 10 fucking years
war3 has been around like 3 or 4?
think about how newbie the best starcraft players were in 1999
Starcraft hasn't been around for 10 years....
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starcraft release date jan 1998
war3 release date july 3 2002
so about 4.5 years of time for war3 progamers to catch up
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As a former WC3 player, I agree that WC3 pro-gamers have been underwhelming thus far in competitive play. However, I have a theory about this and I would like to poll the audience...
Poll: What will come of the relative performance of WC3 players?WC3 players will rise to prominence as the mechanics and income schemes of Starcraft become familiar (3) 50% Stay approximately the same; former BW and WC3 players are playing up to their abilities in SC2. (2) 33% Former WC3 players will catch up, gaining an equal footing with their BW counterparts. (1) 17% 6 total votes Your vote: What will come of the relative performance of WC3 players? (Vote): Stay approximately the same; former BW and WC3 players are playing up to their abilities in SC2.
(Vote): Former WC3 players will catch up, gaining an equal footing with their BW counterparts.
(Vote): WC3 players will rise to prominence as the mechanics and income schemes of Starcraft become familiar
BW players have been playing a long time, and many of their instincts and styles have been readily ported into Starcraft 2. I think your tune will change as the SC2 field matures. =)
User was warned for this post
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Did you really have to bump a 6 year old thread?
This should be locked
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lolz
User was warned for this post
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EPT
