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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 82
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Ng5
702 Posts
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Mafs
Canada458 Posts
Castling will save a move. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
I can safely say it was a3. Let me do the counting and everything. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
Move 13 Votes (final count) + Show Spoiler [Voters] + 13. Rb1: 0-1 (Bill Murray?) 13. a3: 29-30 (jdseemoreglass, GolemMadness, Malinor, mastergriggy, SheaR619, Raysalis, GenesisX, Blazinghand, EvilNalu, wuBu, chesshaha, keyStorm, Ikari, aphorism, jsemmens, itsjustatank, Cloud9157?, timh, TehForce, Malli, Chezus, Psilver, qrs, Xaerkar, LaXerCannon, Soluhwin, Archers_bane, Mash2, Mabilis, hype[NZ]) (Cloud9157 expressed a preference for this move but didn't outright state that it was his vote.) 13. 0-0: 2 ( ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3fSSL.png) | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
Cheers. | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
I looked over some moves and I gotta say it would be an interesting dynamic if Black keeps the Bishop pair, such as (as greggy suggested I believe; and I promise I and him are not the same person) 13...Be7 14. Nxd4 exd4 15. Nd2 Bb7 16. 0-0 and Re1 I'm not sure if it wins a pawn or not, but it may be worth it for black for the double bishops and white's cramped position (although bare in mind that black would be 2 pawns down). I don't think a5 is much of an issue in these lines, for example: 13...Bxd2 14. Nxd2 Nxd2 15. Kxd2 Rb6 16. b4 a5 17. axb5 Ra6 18. Bb2 looks strong for white. I slight variation of that line after 16. b4 is 16...Ba6 and I honestly haven't analysed it much but maybe 17. f4 Bc4 18. Ke1 Rhb1 19. Bd2 a5 20. Ra1 and I don't think black can break through. But I guess it really all depends on what Ng5 does. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 04 2011 02:23 mastergriggy wrote: I'm convinced that Black will play the move you mention. The only question in my mind is whether he plays it right away or after + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler + I looked over some moves and I gotta say it would be an interesting dynamic if Black keeps the Bishop pair, such as (as greggy suggested I believe; and I promise I and him are not the same person) 13...Be7 14. Nxd4 exd4 15. Nd2 Bb7 16. 0-0 and Re1 I'm not sure if it wins a pawn or not, but it may be worth it for black for the double bishops and white's cramped position (although bare in mind that black would be 2 pawns down). I don't think a5 is much of an issue in these lines, for example: 13...Bxd2 14. Nxd2 Nxd2 15. Kxd2 Rb3 16. b4 a5 17. axb5 Ra6 18. Bb2 looks strong for white. I slight variation of that line after 16. b4 is 16...Ba6 and I honestly haven't analysed it much but maybe 17. f4 Bc4 18. Ke1 Rhb1 19. Bd2 a5 20. Ra1 and I don't think black can break through. But I guess it really all depends on what Ng5 does. 13...Nxd2 14. Nxd2, to avoid having to defend a pawn on e4 in case we exchange Knights. | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On October 04 2011 02:39 qrs wrote: I'm convinced that Black will play the move you mention. The only question in my mind is whether he plays it right away or after + Show Spoiler + 13...Nxd2 14. Nxd2, to avoid having to defend a pawn on e4 in case we exchange Knights. I think your line looks better. + Show Spoiler + It takes away the weakness of the e pawn (not having one on the e-file lol), but maybe white can do something like b4-Nb3-Nc5 and make it work. For example, 13. Nxd2 14. Nxd2 Be7 15. b4 Ba6 16. Nb3 Bc4 17. Nc5 | ||
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EvilNalu
United States91 Posts
On October 04 2011 02:23 mastergriggy wrote: + Show Spoiler + I looked over some moves and I gotta say it would be an interesting dynamic if Black keeps the Bishop pair, such as (as greggy suggested I believe; and I promise I and him are not the same person) 13...Be7 14. Nxd4 exd4 15. Nd2 Bb7 16. 0-0 and Re1 I'm not sure if it wins a pawn or not, but it may be worth it for black for the double bishops and white's cramped position (although bare in mind that black would be 2 pawns down). I don't think a5 is much of an issue in these lines, for example: 13...Bxd2 14. Nxd2 Nxd2 15. Kxd2 Rb3 16. b4 a5 17. axb5 Ra6 18. Bb2 looks strong for white. I slight variation of that line after 16. b4 is 16...Ba6 and I honestly haven't analysed it much but maybe 17. f4 Bc4 18. Ke1 Rhb1 19. Bd2 a5 20. Ra1 and I don't think black can break through. But I guess it really all depends on what Ng5 does. It's really hard to follow your analysis when you post illegal moves. + Show Spoiler + Also, you guys should read greggy's post a little more carefully. He posted some great lines that pretty much show why 14. Nxe4 does not work out well for white after 13...Be7. Specifically, 15...f5 is miles better than your proposed 15...Bb7. I think white is nearly forced to play 14. 0-0 and allow black to get in c5, but I think white can still maintain an edge in those lines. For instance, I think white is doing well after greggy's line 14. 0-0 c5 15. dxc5 Bxc5 16. b4 or 15...Ba6 16. Re1 (not greggy's 16.Rd1, which runs into trouble after the familiar 16...Be2) 16...Nxc5 17. b4 Nd3 18. Rd1, and although we are a tempo behind greggy's line, white will soon play Nb3 and activate his remaining pieces, still a pawn to the good. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 04 2011 03:47 mastergriggy wrote: The Black move I'm really worried about after we play+ Show Spoiler +I think your line looks better. + Show Spoiler + It takes away the weakness of the e pawn (not having one on the e-file lol), but maybe white can do something like b4-Nb3-Nc5 and make it work. For example, 13. Nxd2 14. Nxd2 Be7 15. b4 Ba6 16. Nb3 Bc4 17. Nc5 b4 ...a5. After Black plays this, we more or less have to play bxa5 if we want to keep our pawn. (In lines where Black has kept his Knight on e4, there might be some tactical alternatives beginning with Nxe4, but in the line where Black exchanges Knights first, I don't see any possible alternative that keeps the pawn.) After 13. Nxd2 14. Nxd2 Be7 15. b4 a5 16. bxa5 Ba6+ Show Spoiler [diagram] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tTgKe.png) White to play 15. 0-0 (as greggy suggested in a similar position). Yes, this concedes Black the ability to play ...c5, but as the above line shows, we can't stop that. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 04 2011 04:02 EvilNalu wrote: I did read greggy's post carefully. First of all, although the lines he posted were interesting, I don't think that they showed that + Show Spoiler +It's really hard to follow your analysis when you post illegal moves. + Show Spoiler + Also, you guys should read greggy's post a little more carefully. He posted some great lines that pretty much show why 14. Nxe4 does not work out well for white after 13...Be7. Specifically, 15...f5 is miles better than your proposed 15...Bb7. I think white is nearly forced to play 14. 0-0 and allow black to get in c5, but I think white can still maintain an edge in those lines. For instance, I think white is doing well after greggy's line 14. 0-0 c5 15. dxc5 Bxc5 16. b4 or 15...Ba6 16. Re1 (not greggy's 16.Rd1, which runs into trouble after the familiar 16...Be2) 16...Nxc5 17. b4 Nd3 18. Rd1, and although we are a tempo behind greggy's line, white will soon play Nb3 and activate his remaining pieces, still a pawn to the good. 14. Nxe4 13... Be7 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. f3 e3 17. Nc4 (not Nf1 as in greggy's line) 17... f4 18. h4 Ba6 19. Na5 edited: I originally gave an 18th move that was probably losing + Show Spoiler [position] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ctf1K.png) Black to play Secondly, the lines I've been discussing with mastergriggy follow a different Black 13th move + Show Spoiler + 13...Nxd2 | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
Couple of things: EvilNalu: 16. Rd1 Be2 17. Re1 just keeps the pawn unless Bxf3? in which case we're fine since our bishop can finally get out? Am I missing something completely obvious here? qrs: It is completely counter-intuitive for black to play 13. .. Nxd2. The knight on e4 is perfectly placed, pressuring f2, d2 and c3 and c5 (even g5, if you like). It is probably black's best piece on the board and exchanging it makes white's life a lot easier - any line after that move is better for white. Just run any line that's been analysed in the last couple of pages with 13. .. Nxd2 14. Nxd2 played and see how much better it is for white for yourself. You like this position? How are you going to coordinate your pieces with those f4-e3 pawns? A couple of lines: 19. Na5 c5 20. d5 Rhc8 and please tell me which piece you're going to move now; 19. Na5 c5 20. dc Bc5 21. b4 Bd4 22. Ra2 Bc3+ 23. Kd1 e2+ forcing white to give up an exchange; and without moving the b-pawn white cannot release our bishop and will struggle to release the rook. Call me biased but at least with Nf1 white had the option of playing g3 at some point (unlikely anyway) to disrupt black's kingside pawns -.- | ||
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EvilNalu
United States91 Posts
On October 04 2011 04:47 qrs wrote: I did read greggy's post carefully. First of all, although the lines he posted were interesting, I don't think that they showed that + Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 13... Be7 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. f3 e3 17. Nc4 (not Nf1 as in greggy's line) 17... f4 18. h4 Ba6 19. Na5 edited: I originally gave an 18th move that was probably losing + Show Spoiler [position] + Black to play Secondly, the lines I've been discussing with mastergriggy follow a different Black 13th move + Show Spoiler + 13...Nxd2 + Show Spoiler + Didn't mean to be a jerk and imply that you hadn't read his post, I just found his lines convincing so I though since you didn't respond to them you must have missed it. Along with greggy, I just don't see why you guys think Nxd2 is going to happen. It gives away one of black's stronger pieces for no good reasonl. Of course, Ng5 has surprised us before, so it is good to analyze all the possibilities, I just don't see it as one of the stronger options, so I focused on lines I think are more critical. After 13...Nxd2 14. Nxd2 Be7, white can just go 15. 0-0 and it looks to me like he is in a better version of the lines greggy and I are discussing. In your first line after 19. Na5: Black to play I think white is simply lost here after 19...Bd3. The main problem is that white's knight is in danger and black can now meet b4 with mate threats after Rxb4!, for instance: 20. g3 Rb5 21. b4 Rxb4 22. axb4 Bxb4+ 23. Kd1 e2#, 23. Bd2 is still hopeless after 23...Bxd2 24. Kd1 Bc3. White can't try to get a sqaure for the knight with 20. d5 because 20...Rb5 21. Nc6 Rxd5 is terrible for white as well. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:49 greggy wrote: OK, accepted: I was mistaken to like that position. It's actually quite bad for us, as you say. Still, what about simply + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler + Couple of things: EvilNalu: 16. Rd1 Be2 17. Re1 just keeps the pawn unless Bxf3? in which case we're fine since our bishop can finally get out? Am I missing something completely obvious here? qrs: It is completely counter-intuitive for black to play 13. .. Nxd2. The knight on e4 is perfectly placed, pressuring f2, d2 and c3 and c5 (even g5, if you like). It is probably black's best piece on the board and exchanging it makes white's life a lot easier - any line after that move is better for white. Just run any line that's been analysed in the last couple of pages with 13. .. Nxd2 14. Nxd2 played and see how much better it is for white for yourself. You like this position? How are you going to coordinate your pieces with those f4-e3 pawns? A couple of lines: 19. Na5 c5 20. d5 Rhc8 and please tell me which piece you're going to move now; 19. Na5 c5 20. dc Bc5 21. b4 Bd4 22. Ra2 Bc3+ 23. Kd1 e2+ forcing white to give up an exchange; and without moving the b-pawn white cannot release our bishop and will struggle to release the rook. Call me biased but at least with Nf1 white had the option of playing g3 at some point (unlikely anyway) to disrupt black's kingside pawns -.- 13... Be7 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16 0-0 ? Is this clearly bad for us? What it gains over 14. 0-0 is that our e-pawn is passed in this line. Edit: EvilNalu posted while I was typing, but the gist of this response applies to his post too, i.e.--I've admitted that I was wrong about my example. The + Show Spoiler + Nxe4 That said, if you can demonstrate that + Show Spoiler + Nxe4 | ||
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EvilNalu
United States91 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:49 greggy wrote: + Show Spoiler + Couple of things: EvilNalu: 16. Rd1 Be2 17. Re1 just keeps the pawn unless Bxf3? in which case we're fine since our bishop can finally get out? Am I missing something completely obvious here? + Show Spoiler + Well, I thought 17...Bxf3 was strong after 18. Nxf3 Bxc5 because 19. Be3 is not possible here. After either 19. Re2 or Rf1 (I think Re2 might be better because it also protects the b pawn, although it has the drawback of uncoordinating white's rooks temporarily), white is in a sort of bind after 19...a5. Assuming 19. Re2 a5, 20. Be3 looks terrible after 20...Bxe3 21.fxe3 Rb3. Something like 20. Bf4 could get hairy after 20...Nxf2 21.Rxf2 Rxb2, although we would need lots of analysis here to tell whether it would be winning for black - I think he can force a R vs. BN endgame and win white's a pawn, which would be very dangerous for white. | ||
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EvilNalu
United States91 Posts
On October 04 2011 06:26 qrs wrote: + Show Spoiler + 13... Be7 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16 0-0 ? Is this clearly bad for us? What it gains over 14. 0-0 is that our e-pawn is passed in this line. Well, I don't think there is necessarily a refutation of this line. + Show Spoiler + I just think that if the best we have in that line is to drop the N back to d2 and leave it there, we are clearly better off in the 14. 0-0 lines where we do not allow the pawn to be lodged on e4. It really kills the coordination of our pieces and puts us back in a bind where our queenside B and R are totally out of the game. I don't see the passed e pawn as worth anything because it is totally locked down and not going anywhere. Remember, if we play 14. 0-0, we could still play Nxe4 on almost any future move if we decide it would be advantageous. | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
Actually, you might be onto something here. First things first however: the thing about Nxe4 that I personally dislike is that after f5 (which is forced, haha), it is almost impossible to force these pawns away, since on f3 black can simply play e3. The way to counter that is imho to play 15. Ng5 instead of Nd2. 13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O 16. O-O Ba6 17. Rd1 Be2 (17.. c5 18. dc Bxc5 19. Nb3+ , exchanging bishop for knight) 18. Re1 Bd3 19. f3 and there's no e3 in this line; 16. O-O c5 17. dc Bxc5 and Bd4 next (no f4 to defend e5 pawn) 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Ba6 18. Re1 and I don't actually think black can prevent f3? this line seems good; could someone go over it? Here's something else I thought of: 13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Ng5 f5 16. f3 16. f3 ef 17. Nxf3 feels like it's good for white -17. .. Ba6 18. b4; 17. ..c5 18. O-O or simply 18. dc Bxc5 19. b4; 16. f3 e3 17. Bxe3 Rxb2 18. O-O and I don't think black has enough pieces to utilise the rook on b2, f.e. 18. .. Ba6 19. Rfb1 Rxb1 (Rhb8 20. Rxb2 Rxb2 21. Nxh7) 20. Rxb1 and white's doing okay. Although I am aware that black can just take 15. .. Bxg5, it would leave us with opposite-coloured bishops, which doesn't exactly make for an exciting game. I'm feeling pretty tired tonight so pardon any obvious mistakes in this analysis -.- | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
On October 04 2011 06:39 EvilNalu wrote: + Show Spoiler + Well, I thought 17...Bxf3 was strong after 18. Nxf3 Bxc5 because 19. Be3 is not possible here. After either 19. Re2 or Rf1 (I think Re2 might be better because it also protects the b pawn, although it has the drawback of uncoordinating white's rooks temporarily), white is in a sort of bind after 19...a5. Assuming 19. Re2 a5, 20. Be3 looks terrible after 20...Bxe3 21.fxe3 Rb3. Something like 20. Bf4 could get hairy after 20...Nxf2 21.Rxf2 Rxb2, although we would need lots of analysis here to tell whether it would be winning for black - I think he can force a R vs. BN endgame and win white's a pawn, which would be very dangerous for white. + Show Spoiler + I would've just played 18. gf Nxc5 19. b4 Nd3 20. Re3 Nf4 21. Bb2 -- that's my instinct anyway. Edit: your 19. .. Bd3 in the variation offered by qrs is far better than my c5. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 04 2011 07:02 EvilNalu wrote: One note about your last point (bolded): + Show Spoiler +Well, I don't think there is necessarily a refutation of this line. + Show Spoiler + I just think that if the best we have in that line is to drop the N back to d2 and leave it there, we are clearly better off in the 14. 0-0 lines where we do not allow the pawn to be lodged on e4. It really kills the coordination of our pieces and puts us back in a bind where our queenside B and R are totally out of the game. I don't see the passed e pawn as worth anything because it is totally locked down and not going anywhere. Remember, if we play 14. 0-0, we could still play Nxe4 on almost any future move if we decide it would be advantageous. This would be true--except that if Ng5 decides that Nxe4--at whichever future move--is advantageous for us, he can preclude us by playing ...Nxd2 first. That's why I think 14...Nxd2 is a possibility. On October 04 2011 07:43 greggy wrote: The main reason that I've not even been considering the alternate 15th move you're pointing to is that by playing the reply you mention in your last sentence, Black can regain his pawn and reach what looks to be an even game. Sure, it might not be a particularly exciting game, as you say, and maybe for that reason Ng5 will avoid that line, but I'd rather not leave the decision to him.+ Show Spoiler + Actually, you might be onto something here. First things first however: the thing about Nxe4 that I personally dislike is that after f5 (which is forced, haha), it is almost impossible to force these pawns away, since on f3 black can simply play e3. The way to counter that is imho to play 15. Ng5 instead of Nd2. 13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O 16. O-O Ba6 17. Rd1 Be2 (17.. c5 18. dc Bxc5 19. Nb3+ , exchanging bishop for knight) 18. Re1 Bd3 19. f3 and there's no e3 in this line; 16. O-O c5 17. dc Bxc5 and Bd4 next (no f4 to defend e5 pawn) 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Ba6 18. Re1 and I don't actually think black can prevent f3? this line seems good; could someone go over it? Here's something else I thought of: 13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Ng5 f5 16. f3 16. f3 ef 17. Nxf3 feels like it's good for white -17. .. Ba6 18. b4; 17. ..c5 18. O-O or simply 18. dc Bxc5 19. b4; 16. f3 e3 17. Bxe3 Rxb2 18. O-O and I don't think black has enough pieces to utilise the rook on b2, f.e. 18. .. Ba6 19. Rfb1 Rxb1 (Rhb8 20. Rxb2 Rxb2 21. Nxh7) 20. Rxb1 and white's doing okay. Although I am aware that black can just take 15. .. Bxg5, it would leave us with opposite-coloured bishops, which doesn't exactly make for an exciting game. I'm feeling pretty tired tonight so pardon any obvious mistakes in this analysis -.- Meanwhile, I'll look at your analysis. If Ng5 plays + Show Spoiler + 13... Be7 | ||
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