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On October 04 2011 04:02 EvilNalu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 02:23 mastergriggy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I looked over some moves and I gotta say it would be an interesting dynamic if Black keeps the Bishop pair, such as (as greggy suggested I believe; and I promise I and him are not the same person) 13...Be7 14. Nxd4 exd4 15. Nd2 Bb7 16. 0-0 and Re1 I'm not sure if it wins a pawn or not, but it may be worth it for black for the double bishops and white's cramped position (although bare in mind that black would be 2 pawns down).
I don't think a5 is much of an issue in these lines, for example: 13...Bxd2 14. Nxd2 Nxd2 15. Kxd2 Rb3 16. b4 a5 17. axb5 Ra6 18. Bb2 looks strong for white.
I slight variation of that line after 16. b4 is 16...Ba6 and I honestly haven't analysed it much but maybe 17. f4 Bc4 18. Ke1 Rhb1 19. Bd2 a5 20. Ra1 and I don't think black can break through.
But I guess it really all depends on what Ng5 does. It's really hard to follow your analysis when you post illegal moves. + Show Spoiler +Also, you guys should read greggy's post a little more carefully. He posted some great lines that pretty much show why 14. Nxe4 does not work out well for white after 13...Be7. Specifically, 15...f5 is miles better than your proposed 15...Bb7.
I think white is nearly forced to play 14. 0-0 and allow black to get in c5, but I think white can still maintain an edge in those lines. For instance, I think white is doing well after greggy's line 14. 0-0 c5 15. dxc5 Bxc5 16. b4 or 15...Ba6 16. Re1 (not greggy's 16.Rd1, which runs into trouble after the familiar 16...Be2) 16...Nxc5 17. b4 Nd3 18. Rd1, and although we are a tempo behind greggy's line, white will soon play Nb3 and activate his remaining pieces, still a pawn to the good.
lol I fixed it for some reason I keep getting b3 and b6 backwards.
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Updated. Move posted.
Round 14 begins.
Almost wrote 13 again for some reason...
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On October 04 2011 07:43 greggy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Actually, you might be onto something here. First things first however: the thing about Nxe4 that I personally dislike is that after f5 (which is forced, haha), it is almost impossible to force these pawns away, since on f3 black can simply play e3. The way to counter that is imho to play 15. Ng5 instead of Nd2.
13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O
16. O-O Ba6 17. Rd1 Be2 (17.. c5 18. dc Bxc5 19. Nb3+ , exchanging bishop for knight) 18. Re1 Bd3 19. f3 and there's no e3 in this line;
16. O-O c5 17. dc Bxc5 and Bd4 next (no f4 to defend e5 pawn)
16. O-O c5 17. d5 Ba6 18. Re1and I don't actually think black can prevent f3? this line seems good; could someone go over it?
Here's something else I thought of:
13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Ng5 f5 16. f3
16. f3 ef 17. Nxf3 feels like it's good for white -17. .. Ba6 18. b4; 17. ..c5 18. O-O or simply 18. dc Bxc5 19. b4;
16. f3 e3 17. Bxe3 Rxb2 18. O-O and I don't think black has enough pieces to utilise the rook on b2, f.e. 18. .. Ba6 19. Rfb1 Rxb1 (Rhb8 20. Rxb2 Rxb2 21. Nxh7) 20. Rxb1 and white's doing okay.
Although I am aware that black can just take 15. .. Bxg5, it would leave us with opposite-coloured bishops, which doesn't exactly make for an exciting game. I'm feeling pretty tired tonight so pardon any obvious mistakes in this analysis -.- Thoughts on your analysis (my comments are in blue).
To minimize the danger of cross-posting, I'll post my response one section at a time.
+ Show Spoiler [first installment:] +13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O... c5 17. dc Bxc5 and Bd4 next (no f4 to defend e5 pawn) I think we may be all right in this line: 18. Nc4 (defending both e5 and b2, unblocking the Bishop and opening the d-file for the Rook. This last point means that Black can't play 18...Bd4 or 19. Rd1 will win the Bishop.) 18...Ba6 (developing a piece and kicking our Knight out of his convenient location at c4; also pinning the Knight to the Rook) 19. Rd1+ (necessary to relieve the pin) 19...Ke6 (bringing the King into the mix; in particular, threatening Kxe5 after the c4 Knight is moved or removed). 20. Nd6 (saving the Knight; temporarily defending the threat of ...Kxe5 by the counter-threat Nf7+, forking the King and the Rook, leading to the following position:
+ Show Spoiler [position] +After 13... Be7 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. dxc5 Bxc5 18. Nc4 Ba6 19. Rd1+ Ke6 20. Nd6![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HGw6L.png) Black to play
Here, no matter what Black plays, we respond with 21. b4 (at last!) and I think that we've solved most of the problems of our position: - if Black plays 20...Rhf8 (to eliminate the threatened fork Nf7+, thus reactivating the threat of ..Kxe5), 21. b4 Bb6 (21...Bxd6? loses to 22. Rxd6+, forking King and Bishop [the same applies to 20...Bxd6?]) 22. Bb7, and we've essentially untangled our position while keeping our (passed) pawn.
- if Black plays 20...Rhd8 ('threatening' a triple attack on d6) or 20...Bd3 (blocking our Rook from the defense of our d6), 21. b4 Bxd6 22. exd6 (22... Rxd6 23. Rxd6+), where the immediate ...Kxd6 loses to Bf4+. This gains us a move, which is all we need to defend the pawn with our Bishop.
- if Black plays 20...Rb6/Rbd8 (threatening a triple attack on d6), we can still keep our pawn lead after 21. b4 Bxd6 22. exd6 Rxd6 23. Rxd6+ Kxd6, and though Black has regained his pawn for the moment, we can win it right back: 24. Bb2 (threatening g7). If 24...Rg8, 25. Bd4 and the a7 pawn must fall.
+ Show Spoiler [second installment:] +13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Ba6 18. Re1 and I don't actually think black can prevent f3? this line seems good; could someone go over it? Seems good to me too. At first I was a little worried about 17...Bb7 (attacking the d-pawn), but 18. d6 seems to be a pretty good response to that. A key tactic here is that if Black plays ...Bg5, we can win another pawn by Nxe4! discovering an attack on the undefended Bb7 as well as threatening Nxc5+.
In fact, the above tactic is so disruptive to Black's options that I think the best 17th move for Black here may actually be 17...h6, to remove this tactical possibility. We can follow up with 18. Re1, whence if left undisturbed, we can play 19. f3, as you said, getting rid of Black's central strongpoint of e4.
+ Show Spoiler [position at move 18] +After 13... Be7 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 h6 18. Rd1![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4DG6o.png) Black to play
If Black wants to disrupt our plans to play 19. f3, he might try 18...Bb7 (developing a Bishop, gaining time by attacking our pawn, pressuring us to weaken our central control by advancing the d-pawn, reinforcing e4, and in general exerting pressure along the long diagonal which is about to open up. On the downside, it blocks the b-file...) 19. d6 (nearly forced; 19. Rd1 does not seem very attractive) 19...Bg5 (moving the threatened Bishop to its most active/least obstructive square) 20. Nb3 (taking advantage of the blocked b-file to threaten c5, as well as unblock our Bishop).
+ Show Spoiler [position at move 20] +After 13... Be7 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 h6 18. Rd1 Bb7 19. d6 Bg5 20. Nb3![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gytPB.png) Black to play
Here it looks like an unrewarding job for Black to try to hang on to his isolated c-pawn, but he doesn't have many better options either. He could try counter-attacking our e-pawn with 20...Ke6, but 21. f4 (defending the e-pawn) 21...exf3 e.p. 22. Nxc5+ Kd5 23. Nxb7 Rxb7 24. gxf3 and his Bishop pair is gone and we are up another pawn. Black can technically regain it by trading off his last Bishop, but our now two passed pawns are beginning to look truly threatening.
+ Show Spoiler [position at move 24] +After 13... Be7 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 h6 18. Rd1 Bb7 19. d6 Bg5 20. Nb3 Ke6 21. f4 exf3 22. Nxc5+ Kd5 23. Nxb7 Rxb7 24. gxf3![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3Ekrg.png) Black to play
+ Show Spoiler [third installment:] +13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O ... Ba6 17. Rd1 Be2 (17.. c5 18. dc Bxc5 19. Nb3+ , exchanging bishop for knight) 18. Re1 Bd3 19. f3 and there's no e3 in this line. Looks good. We could also play 17. Re1 (preparing to play f3 immediately), which after 17...c5 18. d5 would transpose with your second 16...c5 line.
+ Show Spoiler [fourth and final installment:] +Here's something else I thought of:
13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Ng5...
Although I am aware that black can just take 15. .. Bxg5, it would leave us with opposite-coloured bishops, which doesn't exactly make for an exciting game. As far as I'm concerned, 15... Bxg5 16. Bxg5 Rxb2 is enough reason to rule this line out: it gives Black an opening to win back his pawn and go into a drawish endgame. Maybe Ng5 will avoid that as unexciting, but I'd rather not leave that up to him.
Let me know if you find any mistakes in my analysis.
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On October 04 2011 09:23 Ng5 wrote:
Updated. Move posted.
Round 14 begins.
Almost wrote 13 again for some reason... Wow, he's moved already.
There are a number of plausible options for us (including + Show Spoiler [options)] +14. 0-0, 14. Nxe4, and maybe even 14. b3. (14. b4, however, looks dubious because of 14...a5.)
In the meantime, I'll continue updating my post above this one with analysis of + Show Spoiler +
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Btw I will send out reminders tomorrow night.
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14.Nxe4
+ Show Spoiler +Taking control of the middle, getting rid of the pawn and putting a knight on e4.
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14. 0-0
+ Show Spoiler +Nxe4 is an even trade, but that forces us to move the knight on f3 and loses protection for the pawn on d4
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14. 0-0
+ Show Spoiler + I think this is the safest bet right now. There really isnt anything that is bad about this move. We can put our king in a safe spot and we can get our rook out for the late game. It will allow us to reinforce our center and should castle before he does Ba6 which will inable us to castle.
14. Nxe4
Why I dont like this move.
+ Show Spoiler +The most logical follow up would be
14. Nxe4, Pxe4
15. Nd2, ???
From here, black can choose to save the pawn or choose to sacrifice it for a tempo or counter. His only choice are Bg5, Pc5, and Bb7.
If he does Bg5...
15. Nd2, Bg5
16. Nxe4, Bxc1
17. Rxc1, Rxb2
18. Nc5+, ???
As you can see we are in a very favorable position with our knight and we traded evenly. The knight will be very hard to take out in this position. So he will probably not do this.
If hes does Pc5...
15. Nd2, Pc5
16. Pxc5, Bxc5
17. Nxe4, ???
In this variation he chooses to counter so he can use his weak pawn to break out formation in the center but I still think it favored us more because now we are even closer to entering the late game which is our goal while carrying this pawn advantage. Possible choice.
If he plays Bb7...
15. Nd2, Bb7
16. ???
This is what I expect him to do and this is what I think is the correct response and why we shouldnt take the knight to begin with. By doing Bb7, he reinforce the pawn in the center but he has close up his rook pressure on the b2 pawn BUT our knight is locked in along with our bishop AND ROOK. We can do Nb3 to let the bishop out and try to get on the c5 square but with that bishop there, it would not matter.
ALSO there is now a threat of him doing Pe3?! This will open up the bishop and attack the g2 square along with the pawn itself attacking the f2 square! From this point on, it looks really scary and I dont want to be in this position lol considering that if you let his bishop take g2, his rook will once again attack the b2 square.
I would like to see yall analysis of the variation as well but I think 14. 0-0 is the correct move.
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On October 04 2011 11:39 SheaR619 wrote:14. Nxe4 Why I dont like this move. + Show Spoiler +The most logical follow up would be
14. Nxe4, Pxe4
15. Nd2, ???
From here, black can choose to save the pawn or choose to sacrifice it for a tempo or counter. His only choice are Bg5, Pc5, and Bb7
...
If he plays Bb7...
15. Nd2, Bb7
16. ???
This is what I expect him to do and this is what I think is the correct response and why we shouldnt take the knight to begin with. By doing Bb7, he reinforce the pawn in the center but he has close up his rook pressure on the b2 pawn BUT our knight is locked in along with our bishop AND ROOK. We can do Nb3 to let the bishop out and try to get on the c5 square but with that bishop there, it would not matter.
ALSO there is now a threat of him doing Pe3?! This will open up the bishop and attack the g2 square along with the pawn itself attacking the f2 square! From this point on, it looks really scary and I dont want to be in this position lol considering that if you let his bishop take g2, his rook will once again attack the b2 square. I would like to see yall analysis of the variation as well but I think 14. 0-0 is the correct move. The three choices you list aren't Black's only ones: he also has + Show Spoiler +which greggy, EvilNalu, and I all think is his strongest move. See the posts above for extensive analysis of that line.
To get to the line you're concerned about, though, I don't see what's worrying you.
+ Show Spoiler +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7, we can simply play 16. 0-0 and our position looks fine to me. We can exert pressure on the e4 pawn with Re1.
You say that our Knight, Bishop, and Rook are locked in, but what's locking them in? Granted, they're a bit cramped temporarily, but I don't see how Black plans to keep them there.
You say that ...Pe3 is a threat, but that would just give away the pawn. Maybe you mean that if we play f3, ...Pe3 becomes a threat, but we don't have to play that move until we're ready to. After we play Re1, we can play f3 without worrying about ...Pe3.
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I'm doing a lot of analysis now, I just want to start with the line:
+ Show Spoiler +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. 0-0 c5 17. d5. Aftter 17...Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 16. Nxe4, black actually gets a much better game than it looks at first. 16...Bxe4 17. Bxg5 Rxb2 and of the passed pawns on the board, black's c pawn is the only one that is threatening. For example, 18. Rfc1 Rc8 and it is ready to push, whereas whites pawns are controlled by black's king. Also, black now has the opposite bishops to fall back on even if the c pawn doesn't pan out - although the presence of rooks helps us somewhat. So, I think white should play 17. dxc5 in this line.
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Having spent quite a bit of time analyzing it, I'm voting for 14. Nxe4, although I'm open to switching if someone comes up with good reasons in support of another move.
+ Show Spoiler [rationale] +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 strengthens our central position by dragging the d-pawn out of the way and likely inducing 15...f5 as well. In particular, this allows us to respond to ...c5 with d5: a strong move that is not possible after 14. 0-0 (Nxd2 15. Nxd2) c5. It's true that this concedes Black a strong central position as well, but according to the analysis we've done, we should be able to dismantle Black's central position with a future Re1 followed by f3. See this post for more detailed analysis. Other moves than 14. 0-0 or 14. Nxe4 allow Black to seriously crimp our position by playing ...Ba6 before we have the chance to castle.
@EvilNalu: I'm keeping up with your analysis and I'm interested in seeing what you come up with. I'll respond to your most recent post in a moment.
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Now, on to the analysis:+ Show Spoiler +in the 17.dxc5 line. qrs you did some great analysis of 17...Bxc5 18. Nc4 Ba6 19. Rd1+ Ke6 20. Nd6, but I think you missed black's strong move here: 20...Bd3! Now 21...Bd4 is a huge threat and I can't see how white can avoid his center collapsing, or if 21.Bf4 to try to save the center, Rxb2.
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On October 04 2011 11:59 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 11:39 SheaR619 wrote:14. Nxe4 Why I dont like this move. + Show Spoiler +The most logical follow up would be
14. Nxe4, Pxe4
15. Nd2, ???
From here, black can choose to save the pawn or choose to sacrifice it for a tempo or counter. His only choice are Bg5, Pc5, and Bb7
...
If he plays Bb7...
15. Nd2, Bb7
16. ???
This is what I expect him to do and this is what I think is the correct response and why we shouldnt take the knight to begin with. By doing Bb7, he reinforce the pawn in the center but he has close up his rook pressure on the b2 pawn BUT our knight is locked in along with our bishop AND ROOK. We can do Nb3 to let the bishop out and try to get on the c5 square but with that bishop there, it would not matter.
ALSO there is now a threat of him doing Pe3?! This will open up the bishop and attack the g2 square along with the pawn itself attacking the f2 square! From this point on, it looks really scary and I dont want to be in this position lol considering that if you let his bishop take g2, his rook will once again attack the b2 square. I would like to see yall analysis of the variation as well but I think 14. 0-0 is the correct move. The three choices you list aren't Black's only ones: he also has + Show Spoiler +which greggy, EvilNalu, and I all think is his strongest move. See the posts above for extensive analysis of that line. To get to the line you're concerned about, though, I don't see what's worrying you. + Show Spoiler +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7, we can simply play 16. 0-0 and our position looks fine to me. We can exert pressure on the e4 pawn with Re1.
You say that our Knight, Bishop, and Rook are locked in, but what's locking them in? Granted, they're a bit cramped temporarily, but I don't see how Black plans to keep them there.
You say that ...Pe3 is a threat, but that would just give away the pawn. Maybe you mean that if we play f3, ...Pe3 becomes a threat, but we don't have to play that move until we're ready to. After we play Re1, we can play f3 without worrying about ...Pe3.
Well if he does + Show Spoiler + 15...f5 we could just en passant. Thus I didnt think it would matter. But it would seem that if we were to en passant in that position...it would be rather unfavorable so I didnt take into the consideration of the 15...f5 at first.This is what would happen if we en passant.
14. Nxe4, Pxe4
15. Nd2, Pf5
16. Pe5xF6 (en passant), g2xf6
17. Nd2xPe4 , Re8
As you can see, in this exchange the Re8 will pin down the night and with the Bb7, it will be a dead horsey and he will be in terrible position.
If we dont en passant...
14. Nxe4, d5xe4
15. Nd2, f5
16. O-O, ???
I think this would be pretty good position as well. But i still think our back left side pretty cramp due to doing 14. Nxe4. Because of this move, he got a pawn in the center and fortified it and now we cant develop our left side. As of now, our a1 rook and our black bishop are pretty useless and this is due to the Nd2. It is true that from here we can do Re1 to pressure the Pe4 and this position isnt too bad.
What I am afraid of is right now is black mobility. He has pieces that are in much better position and has more possible attack path. While our left side is trapped, if he finds an opening, we are doomed. We are alright slightly ahead, thus it doesnt hurt to play it safe by doing doing 14. 0-0
From what I can see, if yall wana be more aggressive then do Nxe4 but if you want to play it safe do 14. 0-0. I am a defensive player so I would do 14.0-0 and see how he react and slowly try to develop my left side and find an opening.
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On October 04 2011 12:18 EvilNalu wrote:I'm doing a lot of analysis now, I just want to start with the line: + Show Spoiler +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. 0-0 c5 17. d5. Aftter 17...Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 16. Nxe4, black actually gets a much better game than it looks at first. 16...Bxe4 17. Bxg5 Rxb2 and of the passed pawns on the board, black's c pawn is the only one that is threatening. For example, 18. Rfc1 Rc8 and it is ready to push, whereas whites pawns are controlled by black's king. Also, black now has the opposite bishops to fall back on even if the c pawn doesn't pan out - although the presence of rooks helps us somewhat. So, I think white should play 17. dxc5 in this line. + Show Spoiler +The position after 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. 0-0 c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 19. Nxe4 Bxe4 20. Bxg5 Rxb2 21. Rfc1 Rc8 looks pretty good to me. + Show Spoiler [position] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dz6X8.png) White to playAmong our resources: we can blockade the c-pawn with Rc4 (clearing the way to double our Rooks in the near future) and we can attack it/pin it to the a-pawn with Be3. The game might continue: 22. Be3 (double attacking the c-pawn and pinning it to the a-pawn) 22...Rb5 (the only move that doesn't drop either the c-pawn or the a-pawn) 23. f3 (forcing the Bishop away before it has a chance to go to d3. 23...Bd3 fails to 24. Rc3. Later on, this could be met by ...c4, but right now, the c-pawn is still pinned. The bishop can still protect the c-pawn's advance from d5, but it is not as effective from behind the pawn.) 23...Bd5 (the most flexible/mobile place the Bishop can move to; controls c4 24. a4 (forces the Rook off to the side; in particular, off the b-file) 24...Ra5 (necessary to keep protecting the c-pawn) 25. Bd2 (continuing to chase the Rook and gain space. In particular, preparing to defend the a-pawn with the Bishop so that the a1 Rook is free to take over the b-file.) 25...Ra6 (forced) 26. a5 (further gaining space and restricting Black's rook; freeing our a1 Rook to take over the b-file). That brings us to the following position: + Show Spoiler [position] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 19. Nxe4 Bxe4 20. Bxg5 Rxb2 21. Rfc1 Rc8 22. Be3 Rb5 23. f3 Bd5 24. a4 Ra5 25. Bd2 Ra6 26. a5Black to playOur plan is to play Rb1, threatening Rb5 and (if ...Rac6) Rb7+. What do you advise for Black here?
I'll look at your analysis in the other line now, but even if it turns out that you've refuted that line, as of now this line still looks very good to me.
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Now, as greggy has convinced me that the line + Show Spoiler +14.0-0 c5 15. dxc5 Ba6 16. Rd1 Be2 17. Re1 Bxf3 18. gxf3
14. 0-0
+ Show Spoiler +It seems to me that white's pieces are better coordinated here as opposed to the 14. Nxe4 lines. I have seen a lot of analysis about Nxe4, and it's not clear to me whether white can even maintain an edge, but even if he can, I don't see any advantages to the Nxe4 lines. Why do you guys like them so much? We will kick black's knight off e4 within a few moves anyway. I just don't get the allure of 14. Nxe4.
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On October 04 2011 13:22 EvilNalu wrote:Now, as greggy has convinced me that the line + Show Spoiler +14.0-0 c5 15. dxc5 Ba6 16. Rd1 Be2 17. Re1 Bxf3 18. gxf3 is decent for white, I see nothing holding me back from casting my vote: 14. 0-0+ Show Spoiler +It seems to me that white's pieces are better coordinated here as opposed to the 14. Nxe4 lines. I have seen a lot of analysis about Nxe4, and it's not clear to me whether white can even maintain an edge, but even if he can, I don't see any advantages to the Nxe4 lines. Why do you guys like them so much? We will kick black's knight off e4 within a few moves anyway. I just don't get the allure of 14. Nxe4.
I'm assuming the allure to that move is to remove a powerful centralized knight and to potentially weaken black's pawn structure?
To be honest, I expected Ng5 to play Nxe4 Nxe4, and then Be7. Those were the only lines I was looking at, so I have some work ahead of me tomorrow looking at this position. Hopefully I will have the time and inclination to do my usual write up, but right now I really have no idea what I will vote for.
By the way, I don't get the horse in the window... o.O
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On October 04 2011 12:39 EvilNalu wrote:Now, on to the analysis: + Show Spoiler +in the 17.dxc5 line. qrs you did some great analysis of 17...Bxc5 18. Nc4 Ba6 19. Rd1+ Ke6 20. Nd6, but I think you missed black's strong move here: 20...Bd3! Now 21...Bd4 is a huge threat and I can't see how white can avoid his center collapsing, or if 21.Bf4 to try to save the center, Rxb2. I actually mentioned that move in my analysis, but I overlooked that + Show Spoiler +...Bd3 made ...Bd4 possible again.
Fortunately, we have the choice to go into the other line, so as long as that one holds up, Nxe4 is still looking strong. I look forward to seeing your response to my latest there.
edit: re allure, I mentioned my reasons for preferring 14. Nxe4 to other moves in this post. More or less what jdseemoreglass says.
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On October 04 2011 13:20 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 12:18 EvilNalu wrote:I'm doing a lot of analysis now, I just want to start with the line: + Show Spoiler +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. 0-0 c5 17. d5. Aftter 17...Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 16. Nxe4, black actually gets a much better game than it looks at first. 16...Bxe4 17. Bxg5 Rxb2 and of the passed pawns on the board, black's c pawn is the only one that is threatening. For example, 18. Rfc1 Rc8 and it is ready to push, whereas whites pawns are controlled by black's king. Also, black now has the opposite bishops to fall back on even if the c pawn doesn't pan out - although the presence of rooks helps us somewhat. So, I think white should play 17. dxc5 in this line. + Show Spoiler +The position after 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. 0-0 c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 19. Nxe4 Bxe4 20. Bxg5 Rxb2 21. Rfc1 Rc8 looks pretty good to me. + Show Spoiler [position] +White to play Among our resources: we can blockade the c-pawn with Rc4 (clearing the way to double our Rooks in the near future) and we can attack it/pin it to the a-pawn with Bd4. The game might continue: 22. Bd4 (double attacking the c-pawn and pinning it to the a-pawn) 22...Rb5 (the only move that doesn't drop either the c-pawn or the a-pawn) 23. f3 (forcing the Bishop away before it has a chance to go to d3. 23...Bd3 fails to 24. Rc3. Later on, this could be met by ...c4, but right now, the c-pawn is still pinned. The bishop can still protect the c-pawn's advance from d5, but it is not as effective from behind the pawn.) 23...Bd5 (the most flexible/mobile place the Bishop can move to; controls c4 24. a4 (forces the Rook off to the side; in particular, off the b-file) 24...Ra5 (necessary to keep protecting the c-pawn) 25. Bd2 (continuing to chase the Rook and gain space. In particular, preparing to defend the a-pawn with the Bishop so that the a1 Rook is free to take over the b-file.) 25...Ra6 (forced) 26. a5 (further gaining space and restricting Black's rook; freeing our a1 Rook to take over the b-file). That brings us to the following position: + Show Spoiler [position] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 19. Nxe4 Bxe4 20. Bxg5 Rxb2 21. Rfc1 Rc8 22. Be3 Rb5 23. f3 Bd5 24. a4 Ra5 25. Bd2 Ra6 26. a5Black to playOur plan is to play Rb1, threatening Rb5 and (if ...Rac6) Rb7+. What do you advise for Black here? I'll look at your analysis in the other line now, but even if it turns out that you've refuted that line, as of now this line still looks very good to me.
+ Show Spoiler +I think you are putting way too much faith in your "pin" after 22.Be3 (at least that's what I assume you meant as 22.Bd4 is an illegal move). Black simply gets to ram the pawn down our throats to c2: 22...c4 (edit #2: 22...Bc2 is worth a look here as well. It looks awkward but I can't see any way for white to punish it and it really ties up his pieces) 23. Bxa7 c3 24. Bd4 Rb3 (edit:24...Bc2 might be even stronger here, threatening Rc3) followed by 25...c2 (or if 25. f3 Bd3 followed by 26...c2. Not sure I can find a forced win yet but these lines just make me want to cry.
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EPT
