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On October 04 2011 13:39 EvilNalu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 13:20 qrs wrote:On October 04 2011 12:18 EvilNalu wrote:I'm doing a lot of analysis now, I just want to start with the line: + Show Spoiler +14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. 0-0 c5 17. d5. Aftter 17...Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 16. Nxe4, black actually gets a much better game than it looks at first. 16...Bxe4 17. Bxg5 Rxb2 and of the passed pawns on the board, black's c pawn is the only one that is threatening. For example, 18. Rfc1 Rc8 and it is ready to push, whereas whites pawns are controlled by black's king. Also, black now has the opposite bishops to fall back on even if the c pawn doesn't pan out - although the presence of rooks helps us somewhat. So, I think white should play 17. dxc5 in this line. + Show Spoiler +The position after 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. 0-0 c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 19. Nxe4 Bxe4 20. Bxg5 Rxb2 21. Rfc1 Rc8 looks pretty good to me. + Show Spoiler [position] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dz6X8.png) White to playAmong our resources: we can blockade the c-pawn with Rc4 (clearing the way to double our Rooks in the near future) and we can attack it/pin it to the a-pawn with Bd4. The game might continue: 22. Bd4 (double attacking the c-pawn and pinning it to the a-pawn) 22...Rb5 (the only move that doesn't drop either the c-pawn or the a-pawn) 23. f3 (forcing the Bishop away before it has a chance to go to d3. 23...Bd3 fails to 24. Rc3. Later on, this could be met by ...c4, but right now, the c-pawn is still pinned. The bishop can still protect the c-pawn's advance from d5, but it is not as effective from behind the pawn.) 23...Bd5 (the most flexible/mobile place the Bishop can move to; controls c4 24. a4 (forces the Rook off to the side; in particular, off the b-file) 24...Ra5 (necessary to keep protecting the c-pawn) 25. Bd2 (continuing to chase the Rook and gain space. In particular, preparing to defend the a-pawn with the Bishop so that the a1 Rook is free to take over the b-file.) 25...Ra6 (forced) 26. a5 (further gaining space and restricting Black's rook; freeing our a1 Rook to take over the b-file). That brings us to the following position: + Show Spoiler [position] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 19. Nxe4 Bxe4 20. Bxg5 Rxb2 21. Rfc1 Rc8 22. Be3 Rb5 23. f3 Bd5 24. a4 Ra5 25. Bd2 Ra6 26. a5Black to playOur plan is to play Rb1, threatening Rb5 and (if ...Rac6) Rb7+. What do you advise for Black here? I'll look at your analysis in the other line now, but even if it turns out that you've refuted that line, as of now this line still looks very good to me. + Show Spoiler +I think you are putting way too much faith in your "pin" after 22.Be3 (at least that's what I assume you meant as 22.Bd4 is an illegal move). Black simply gets to ram the pawn down our throats to c2: 22...c4 23. Bxa7 c3 24. Bd4 Rb3 followed by 25...c2 (or if 25. f3 Bd3 followed by 26...c2. Not sure I can find a forced win yet but these lines just make me want to cry. I guess this is as good a place as any to leave it for the night. For the record, here's the position we disagree about:
+ Show Spoiler [position] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 19. Nxe4 Bxe4 20. Bxg5 Rxb2 21. Rfc1 Rc8 22. Be3 c4 23. Bxa7 c3 24. Bd4 Rb3![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jrmRZ.png) White to play
For my part, I think that + Show Spoiler +The pawn on soon-to-be c2 may look scary, but I don't see how Black plans to push it that last step, especially when our Bishop is the one with the ability to control the Queening square. My general plan as White would be to solidify the pawn chain running from h2 to e6, to activate our King, to keep open the options of defending c1 with our King and/or our Bishop if need be, and then press our two-pawn advantage and three passed pawns to victory.
Thanks (and to greggy as well) for all the good analysis you've done here, forcing me to do serious analysis too. It was fun. Also, thanks for catching the typo with "Bd4" (don't know what I was thinking). I've fixed that in the original post now.
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+ Show Spoiler +I put this in an edit above, but just so you don't miss it: I think I've found an improvement after 22.Be3 Bc2. It looks a little dubious but I can't find a way to take advantage of it with white. Specifically, I can't find a way for white to stop black's plan to play a6 and then Ke6, which forces either Bf4 or f4, which allow c4 or Be4, respectively, giving black a pretty decent position.
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On October 04 2011 14:13 EvilNalu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I put this in an edit above, but just so you don't miss it: I think I've found an improvement after 22.Be3 Bc2. It looks a little dubious but I can't find a way to take advantage of it with white. Specifically, I can't find a way for white to stop black's plan to play a6 and then Ke6, which forces either Bf4 or f4, which allow c4 or Be4, respectively, giving black a pretty decent position. Interesting. This may indeed be an improvement, although I won't go so far as to say that I think this line is good for Black--we still have our pawn lead and IMO pretty good chances here, though I can't say that I see a forced win for White. My plan here would be + Show Spoiler [plan] +to bring our King into it with Kf1-e1, followed by Ke2 or Be2. It takes a couple of moves, but fortunately Black's position has its own constraints that he needs time to untangle: the c-pawn is still pinned to the a-pawn, the Bishop is pinned to the c-pawn, and the b2 Rook is tied to the defense of the Bishop.
One important point is that because of the delicacy of Black's position, ...Ke6 is less threatening than it seems at first glance. E.g. 23. Kf1 Ke6 24. Ke1 Kxe5? 25. Bd2!, threatening 26. Bc3, and unless I'm mistaken, Black loses a piece.
Something else to note is that even if you're right in not wanting to go into the tactics beginning at move 19, we have what looks like a strong alternative 19th move in + Show Spoiler [move] +19. Nb3, similar to the line I gave with 17...h6 18. Re1 Bb7 19. d6 Bg5 20. Nb3. In this version, we would be one move less developed, not having played Re1 yet, but on the other hand, Black's g5 Bishop would be more vulnerable, he not having played ...h6.
In fact, now that I look at the above alternative more closely, it seems to me that it's even stronger than the move we've been talking about until now. + Show Spoiler [details] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 19. Nb3, White threatens both Nxc5+ and Bxg5. - If Black moves his Bishop out of danger, we simply pick up the pawn.
- If 19...Bxc1, 20. Nxc5+ King moves 21. Raxc1 and we still get the pawn.
- The only other try I see for Black is the counter-attack 19... c6. 20. Nc5+ Kc6 (forced) 21. Nxb7 Bxc1 (forced) 22. Na5+ Kb5 (forced) 23. Raxc1 Kxa5 (forced)24. Rxc4 Rxb2 25. Rc7 (forking Black's pawns) and it seems like Black once again loses a pawn, not to mention that our passed pawns are looking extremely threatening in this line.
+ Show Spoiler [position] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 19. Nb3 c4 20. Nc5+ Kc6 21. Nxb7 Bxc1 22. Na5+ Kb5 23. Raxc1 Kxa5 24. Rxc4 Rxb2 25. Rc7![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zvkY9.png) Black to play
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14. Nxe4
+ Show Spoiler +In my last vote I mentioned I will play this move if black doesn't want to trade. I don't like the positioning of the his e4 knight, wanted it leave long time ago. I don't see other threats after this move.
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+ Show Spoiler + I actually agree with EvilNalu on almost all of his points:
1. Imho Nxe4 is being rushed into here. Let's take a step back and think: what are white's problems here? The way I see it, they are: 1) Development; 2) Space. What does Nxe4 do to alleviate those? Nothing, in fact it only worsens white's position with regard to those two qualities. Moreover, black won't (and, realistically, can't) move his knight away from e4, so there will still be time to play it after 14. O-O c5 for example.
2. Regarding qrs' line 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. 0-0 c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 19. Nxe4 Bxe4 20. Bxg5 Rxb2 21. Rfc1 Rc8: I feel that that EvilNalu is again correct in that c4 is a very, very powerful move. There is next to nothing white can do to stop it and after black achieves the structure c4-Bd3-Rb2-Rb8/c8/e8/a8, white's position will be far too cramped to be able to utilise the pawn advantage (as it is likely that taking the a7 pawn will in fact be detrimental to white as it opens another file for black rooks to attack).
In fact, 22. Be3 c4 23. Bxa7 c3 24. Be3 c2 is simply losing - and if you don't take the a7 pawn, what was the purpose of 22. Be3?
e.g 22. Be3 c4 23. Bd4 Rd2 24. Bc3 Rd3 25. Ra2 Rb8 and anything that isn't 26. Rac2 loses to Rxc3 & Rb1+; 26. Rac2 Rxd6 and white's looking worse and worse -.-
An interesting variation is 22. Rc4 Bd3 23. Bc1 Rb3 24. Ra4 a6 (or straight 24. Rf4) 25. Rf4 and Rf3 next. I don't feel like black can afford to exchange rooks there as the c-pawn isn't far enough down the board.
+ Show Spoiler + Has anyone actually gone over the 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. Nc4/Nb1 lines?
For example:
14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. Nc4
16. Nc4 Ba6 17. Ne3 Ke6/g6 18. b4;
16. Nc4 c5 17. dc Bxc5 18. b4 Bd4 19. Rb1 Ba6 20. Bb2;
Hell, even Nb1 could potentially be viable.
16. Nb1 Ba6 17. b4 and develop as standard;
16. Nb1 c5 17. d5 Ba6 18. d6 Bd8 19. b4 Bd3 (19. b4 cb 20. ab Rxb4 21. Rxa6 Rxb1 22. Rxa7+) 20. Bd2;
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On October 04 2011 23:43 greggy wrote:+ Show Spoiler + I actually agree with EvilNalu on almost all of his points:
1. Imho Nxe4 is being rushed into here. Let's take a step back and think: what are white's problems here? The way I see it, they are: 1) Development; 2) Space. What does Nxe4 do to alleviate those? Nothing, in fact it only worsens white's position with regard to those two qualities. Moreover, black won't (and, realistically, can't) move his knight away from e4, so there will still be time to play it after 14. O-O c5 for example.
2. Regarding qrs' line 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. 0-0 c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 19. Nxe4 Bxe4 20. Bxg5 Rxb2 21. Rfc1 Rc8: I feel that that EvilNalu is again correct in that c4 is a very, very powerful move. There is next to nothing white can do to stop it and after black achieves the structure c4-Bd3-Rb2-Rb8/c8/e8/a8, white's position will be far too cramped to be able to utilise the pawn advantage (as it is likely that taking the a7 pawn will in fact be detrimental to white as it opens another file for black rooks to attack).
In fact, 22. Be3 c4 23. Bxa7 c3 24. Be3 c2 is simply losing - and if you don't take the a7 pawn, what was the purpose of 22. Be3?
e.g 22. Be3 c4 23. Bd4 Rd2 24. Bc3 Rd3 25. Ra2 Rb8 and anything that isn't 26. Rac2 loses to Rxc3 & Rb1+; 26. Rac2 Rxd6 and white's looking worse and worse -.-
An interesting variation is 22. Rc4 Bd3 23. Bc1 Rb3 24. Ra4 a6 (or straight 24. Rf4) 25. Rf4 and Rf3 next. I don't feel like black can afford to exchange rooks there as the c-pawn isn't far enough down the board. Has anyone actually gone over the 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. Nc4/Nb1 lines?
For example:
14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. Nc4
16. Nc4 Ba6 17. Ne3 Ke6/g6 18. b4;
16. Nc4 c5 17. dc Bxc5 18. b4 Bd4 19. Rb1 Ba6 20. Bb2;
Hell, even Nb1 could potentially be viable.
16. Nb1 Ba6 17. b4 and develop as standard;
16. Nb1 c5 17. d5 Ba6 18. d6 Bd8 19. b4 Bd3 (19. b4 cb 20. ab Rxb4 21. Rxa6 Rxb1 22. Rxa7+) 20. Bd2; - I don't see how Black "realistically can't" do what you say he can't--on the contrary, if the line it avoids turns out to be good for us, it seems like that would be Black's best course of action. + Show Spoiler [continued] +
He loses the Knight on e4, but he would lose that regardless of who initiated the exchange. He loses the strong pawn on e4 which replaces the Knight when we exchange, but according to the analysis so far, we should be able to get rid of that with f3 soon enough.
Meanwhile, he gains that our central pawns do not become stronger, as in the lines we've been looking at.
- Aside from the possibility of Ng5's deciding that he doesn't want to let us play this move after all, and playing + Show Spoiler +to preclude it, the main reason that it's better (imo) to play this move now than after the 14th moves that you suggest is that + Show Spoiler +
after 14. 0-0 c5 15. Nxe4 dxe4 we can't (without losing our Knight) prevent Black from playing 16...cxd4
- I could be wrong, but I still don't see how the line you label "simply losing" is losing. What is Black's winning plan there? What does he do if White simply + Show Spoiler [continued] +
keeps a Rook parked on c1, with the support of his other pieces. Given that c1 is a dark square, how does Black manage to clear it? Note, by the way, that my line had 24. Bd4 rather than 24. Be3, which gives White an extra move or so, it seems.
- Don't spend too long looking at that line, though because no one is actually advocating it any more--the latest line has + Show Spoiler +instead, which I see as a much stronger move for White. In fact, as I said, it seems to win a second pawn, without reducing to opposite colored Bishops either.
- I'm willing to look at the lines you give in your second spoiler, but so far + Show Spoiler + still seems like a good move to me.
I'm glad that our choice so far has been coming down to 14. 0-0 and 14. Nxe4: I think these are both reasonable moves for us, although pending further analysis I still favour the latter.
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Basically greggy took the works out of my mouth. Which I still stand by my original move.
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OK, since it's hard to expect people to wade through post after post of analysis, here's the latest position following 14. Nxe4 where there seems to be disagreement:
+ Show Spoiler [position] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bg5 19. Nb3![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/R7OLF.png) Black to play. Note that both the Bishop at g5 and the pawn at c5 are hanging.
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+ Show Spoiler +OK, I can't find any way for black to get an advantage after 14.Nxe4 dxe4 15.Nd2 f5 16.0-0 c5 17.d5. In fact, I now think black should avoid 16...c5 altogether. However, I think I found him a pretty strong move: 16...Rd8. The general idea is to get the king out of the way and attack white's d pawn. For instance,
17.b4 loses a pawn after 17...Ke8 18.Bb2 a5 because 19.Rac1 axb4 20.axb4 Bxb4 and white doesn't have time to grab the c pawn.
17.Rd1 looks like white's best attempt to hold on to the pawn, but I think black gets a good position after 17...a5 18.Nc4 a4 where I don't see any way for white to prevent black's plan of Ba6-d3 and attacking white's d pawn after the king moves. Interested to hear your thoughts on this line.
edit:
+ Show Spoiler +I just noticed a couple of problems with my lines above.
After 17.b4 Ke8 white can play 18.Nb3, which looks like it lets him unravel. Therefore I think black plays 17...a5 instead and it looks like after 18.bxa5 Ba6 19.Re1 Ke6 black gets the d pawn and will soon get the a pawns as well. 19.Rd1 Be2 20.Re1 Bd3 21.Nf1 Ke6 22.Be3 Ra8 doesn't look good for white either.
On October 04 2011 23:43 greggy wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Has anyone actually gone over the 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. Nc4/Nb1 lines?
For example:
14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. Nc4
16. Nc4 Ba6 17. Ne3 Ke6/g6 18. b4;
16. Nc4 c5 17. dc Bxc5 18. b4 Bd4 19. Rb1 Ba6 20. Bb2;
Hell, even Nb1 could potentially be viable.
16. Nb1 Ba6 17. b4 and develop as standard;
16. Nb1 c5 17. d5 Ba6 18. d6 Bd8 19. b4 Bd3 (19. b4 cb 20. ab Rxb4 21. Rxa6 Rxb1 22. Rxa7+) 20. Bd2;
+ Show Spoiler +I don't like the way the 16.Nc4 or Nb1 lines play out after 16...c5.
The 17.d5 line turns bad for white pretty quickly because 17...Ba6 is so much stronger here: 18.Ne3 f4 19.Nf5 Bc4, etc. and white's rooks never come into play.
The 17.dxc5 line you posted gives black an easy draw: 17...Bxc5 18.b4 Bd4 19.Rb1 Ba6 20.Bb2 Bxf2+ 21.Kxf2 Bxc4.
The Nb1 line you post: 16. Nb1 c5 17. d5 Ba6 18. d6 Bd8 19. b4 Bd3 (19. b4 cb 20. ab Rxb4 21. Rxa6 Rxb1 22. Rxa7+) 20. Bd2 gives black the devastating 20...a5 and our pawns are toast.
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Nxe4
+ Show Spoiler +d2 knight is garbage. Exchanging for his knight, which happens to be 10x better than ours, is a great move. After NxN PxN Nd2. He has 1 chance to defend with Bd7, but now his rook has no open lane until he moves the bishop again.
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0-0
+ Show Spoiler +
Not really sure what is best, but 0-0 looks safer so i will pick it for now.I dont really know who is better in the Nxe4 line. The analysis so far on Nxe4 is really good so i will say keep it up :p.
I agree with EvilNalu that 16 .... c5 is a mistake on black part because of d5. A move that give white a connected pass pawn and black still ahve the weak c pawn cant be good
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A thousand and one nights.
Nah this game won't take that long to end the curse between us - between me and you.
But it's so hard to say I'd rather stay awake when I'm asleep.
And it's not even ten thousand spoons.
But as long as you won't take it for granted.
You can just claim that suckers ain't live enough.
But beware of how the taste of something so sweet should have warned you about the undertow.
And fear of the dark.
Peace.
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+ Show Spoiler +I could be wrong, but I still don't see how the line you label "simply losing" is losing. What is Black's winning plan there? What does he do if White simply + Show Spoiler [continued] +keeps a Rook parked on c1, with the support of his other pieces. Given that c1 is a dark square, how does Black manage to clear it? Note, by the way, that my line had 24. Bd4 rather than 24. Be3, which gives White an extra move or so, it seems.
+ Show Spoiler +White is simply playing without a piece.
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double post
+ Show Spoiler +
Might as well use it to say that the 14. Nxe4 is basically creating more problems for white than it solves - yes, you remove then knight but you put a pawn in there instead - a pawn you can't realistically remove quickly. Then, your d2 knight is stuck in there for ever and we haven't even found a reasonable way to remove it and bring the bishop into play. Even from a basics perspective, Nxe4 isn't a developing move and it actually loses at least two tempos, which lets the black regroup.
Hence I think 14. O-O is a superior move and time'd be better spent analysing that.
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On October 05 2011 02:21 EvilNalu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +OK, I can't find any way for black to get an advantage after 14.Nxe4 dxe4 15.Nd2 f5 16.0-0 c5 17.d5. In fact, I now think black should avoid 16...c5 altogether. However, I think I found him a pretty strong move: 16...Rd8. The general idea is to get the king out of the way and attack white's d pawn. For instance,
17.b4 loses a pawn after 17...Ke8 18.Bb2 a5 because 19.Rac1 axb4 20.axb4 Bxb4 and white doesn't have time to grab the c pawn.
17.Rd1 looks like white's best attempt to hold on to the pawn, but I think black gets a good position after 17...a5 18.Nc4 a4 where I don't see any way for white to prevent black's plan of Ba6-d3 and attacking white's d pawn after the king moves. Interested to hear your thoughts on this line. Interesting plan. I think that we're all right there, though. A lot of these lines seem to come down to tempo: Black tries to use his pressure to make gains before we have the chance to disentangle all of our pieces, we try to slow Black long enough to untangle ourselves and consolidate our material advantage. The two preparatory moves that you're forced to incorporate into your plan give us enough time to meet it, imo. Here's my tentative line, with Black following your latest plan:
+ Show Spoiler +OK, one thing seems certain: Black's Kingside pawns are a significant asset to him in these lines, especially when combined with ...Bd3, which has proven to be a thorn in our sides in line after line. The saving grace for White is that he can dismantle--or at least significantly weaken--these pawns with a well-timed f3. The question therefore becomes whether White has enough time to get in f3 before Black can take advantage of his Kingside pawns. Against EvilNalu's plan, thanks to the preparatory moves ...a5 and ...a4 he must incorporate, I think the answer is yes. Here's the line: 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 ( EvilNalu's move: Black prepares to attack the relatively weak d-pawn with his Rook) 17. Rd1 ( EvilNalu's move: White prepares to defend the d-pawn with his own Rook) 17...a5 ( EvilNalu's move: played to prevent b4. If White can safely get in b4, he can follow up with Nb3 and Bb2 to consolidate his position. Black's defense to b4 is ...a5, but after ...Ba6, he won't be able to play this [the Bishop blocks the pawn for the crucial move White needs to play Nb3, controlling a5], so he has to play ...a5 first. 18. Nc4 ( EvilNalu's move: There's no question that White needs to move his Knight pronto: on d2, it's singlehandedly blocking in all the rest of White's pieces, and not accomplishing very much itself. There are three safe moves for the Knight; the other two may be worth considering (especially Nf1), but Nc4 has the advantage of gaining a tempo by attacking the undefended a5 pawn.) 18...a4 ( EvilNalu's move (the last one that he gives): Black can't simply sacrifice the pawn: it's needed to prevent b4.) 19. f3 (White loses no time in attacking the e4 pawn [earlier this was not possible because of the response ...e3, but with the Knight on c4, ...e3 is no longer a viable option for Black].) 19...Ba6 (this move is part of Black's plan [...Ba6-d3], and he can play it now with tempo, as ...Ba6 attacks the undefended c4 Knight, so he may as well play it immediately. As for the e4 pawn, there's little to do about it: Black needs the pawn on e4 to support ...Bd3, so a move like ...exf3 is not a reasonable option if Black is following the EvilNalu plan. All he can do is leave the pawn where it is and if White plays fxe4 retake with his own f-pawn.) 20. Ne3 (White retreats his attacked Knight with tempo, as Ne3 attacks the undefended f5 pawn.) 20...g6 (Black is forced to take another move to defend f5. 20...f4 instead is tempting, but fails (I believe) to 21. Ne5, double attacking the f4 pawn.) 21. fxe4 (White takes his chance to weaken Black's pawn structure) 21...fxe4 (Black recaptures the pawn. ...Bd3 is still an option here, but overall, Black's position is much weaker than it was, with the e-pawn isolated, with f4 no longer a threat in any line, and, most of all, with the c1-h6 diagonal open for our Bishop to exploit.) 21. Nd5 (threatening NxB KxN Bg5+). Here's the position: + Show Spoiler [position] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. f3 Ba6 20. Ne3 g6 21. fxe4 fxe4 22. Nd5![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fCpgW.png) Black to play
On October 05 2011 02:46 Cloud9157 wrote:Nxe4 + Show Spoiler +d2 knight is garbage. Exchanging for his knight, which happens to be 10x better than ours, is a great move. After NxN PxN Nd2. He has 1 chance to defend with Bd7, but now his rook has no open lane until he moves the bishop again. I don't know whether to be happy that people are voting for the move I prefer or sad that they're doing so on the basis of a glance at the board and no reading of any posted analysis.
On October 05 2011 04:11 greggy wrote:double post + Show Spoiler +
Might as well use it to say that the 14. Nxe4 is basically creating more problems for white than it solves - yes, you remove then knight but you put a pawn in there instead - a pawn you can't realistically remove quickly. Then, your d2 knight is stuck in there for ever and we haven't even found a reasonable way to remove it and bring the bishop into play. Even from a basics perspective, Nxe4 isn't a developing move and it actually loses at least two tempos, which lets the black regroup.
Hence I think 14. O-O is a superior move and time'd be better spent analysing that.
You've posted some great analysis, greggy, but I really don't think that this kind of post is helpful. Yes, 14. Nxe4 creates some problems for White, which you've identified. It also has advantages for White. + Show Spoiler +it strengthens his central pawns
You're tired of analyzing a move that is not your favorite--which I can understand--but as a substitute, you're making totally unsupported pronouncements about the position:
+ Show Spoiler [unsupported pronouncements] +yes, you remove then knight but you put a pawn in there instead - a pawn you can't realistically remove quickly Define "quickly". In every line that we've analyzed (including the lines that you yourself posted!), White manages to play f3 and remove or weaken the pawn before Black can take good advantage of it.
Then, your d2 knight is stuck in there for ever and we haven't even found a reasonable way to remove it and bring the bishop into play. Again, in every line that we've analyzed, including the lines that you yourself posted, White manages to take care of the d2 Knight with moves like Nb3 or Nc4 or (combined with f3/Re1) Nxe4.
Nxe4 ...actually loses at least two tempos.... As a blanket statement, this is simply not true. Both Nxe4 and the follow-up Nd2 create threats that Black must respond to; as for whether tempo is lost afterwards, that depends entirely on the line. For example, in the line I posted in the first spoiler of this post, every move of the Knight is accompanied by a threat that Black must respond to.
(On a side note, I don't even understand why you're suddenly so negative about 14. Nxe4. Last night you seemed optimistic about it: you even contributed the foundational analysis of it--which still has not been refuted. Why the change of heart?)
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 05 2011 04:56 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 02:21 EvilNalu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +OK, I can't find any way for black to get an advantage after 14.Nxe4 dxe4 15.Nd2 f5 16.0-0 c5 17.d5. In fact, I now think black should avoid 16...c5 altogether. However, I think I found him a pretty strong move: 16...Rd8. The general idea is to get the king out of the way and attack white's d pawn. For instance,
17.b4 loses a pawn after 17...Ke8 18.Bb2 a5 because 19.Rac1 axb4 20.axb4 Bxb4 and white doesn't have time to grab the c pawn.
17.Rd1 looks like white's best attempt to hold on to the pawn, but I think black gets a good position after 17...a5 18.Nc4 a4 where I don't see any way for white to prevent black's plan of Ba6-d3 and attacking white's d pawn after the king moves. Interested to hear your thoughts on this line. Interesting plan. I think that we're all right there, though. A lot of these lines seem to come down to tempo: Black tries to use his pressure to make gains before we have the chance to disentangle all of our pieces, we try to slow Black long enough to untangle ourselves and consolidate our material advantage. The two preparatory moves that you're forced to incorporate into your plan give us enough time to meet it, imo. Here's my tentative line, with Black following your latest plan: + Show Spoiler +OK, one thing seems certain: Black's Kingside pawns are a significant asset to him in these lines, especially when combined with ...Bd3, which has proven to be a thorn in our sides in line after line. The saving grace for White is that he can dismantle--or at least significantly weaken--these pawns with a well-timed f3. The question therefore becomes whether White has enough time to get in f3 before Black can take advantage of his Kingside pawns. Against EvilNalu's plan, thanks to the preparatory moves ...a5 and ...a4 he must incorporate, I think the answer is yes. Here's the line: 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 ( EvilNalu's move: Black prepares to attack the relatively weak d-pawn with his Rook) 17. Rd1 ( EvilNalu's move: White prepares to defend the d-pawn with his own Rook) 17...a5 ( EvilNalu's move: played to prevent b4. If White can safely get in b4, he can follow up with Nb3 and Bb2 to consolidate his position. Black's defense to b4 is ...a5, but after ...Ba6, he won't be able to play this [the Bishop blocks the pawn for the crucial move White needs to play Nb3, controlling a5], so he has to play ...a5 first. 18. Nc4 ( EvilNalu's move: There's no question that White needs to move his Knight pronto: on d2, it's singlehandedly blocking in all the rest of White's pieces, and not accomplishing very much itself. There are three safe moves for the Knight; the other two may be worth considering (especially Nf1), but Nc4 has the advantage of gaining a tempo by attacking the undefended a5 pawn.) 18...a4 ( EvilNalu's move (the last one that he gives): Black can't simply sacrifice the pawn: it's needed to prevent b4.) 19. f3 (White loses no time in attacking the e4 pawn [earlier this was not possible because of the response ...e3, but with the Knight on c4, ...e3 is no longer a viable option for Black].) 19...Ba6 (this move is part of Black's plan [...Ba6-d3], and he can play it now with tempo, as ...Ba6 attacks the undefended c4 Knight, so he may as well play it immediately. As for the e4 pawn, there's little to do about it: Black needs the pawn on e4 to support ...Bd3, so a move like ...exf3 is not a reasonable option if Black is following the EvilNalu plan. All he can do is leave the pawn where it is and if White plays fxe4 retake with his own f-pawn.) 20. Ne3 (White retreats his attacked Knight with tempo, as Ne3 is attacks the undefended f5 pawn.) 20...g6 (Black is forced to take another move to defend f5. 20...f4 instead is tempting, but fails (I believe) to 21. Ne5, double attacking the f4 pawn.) 21. fxe4 (White takes his chance to weaken Black's pawn structure) 21...fxe4 (Black recaptures the pawn. ...Bd3 is still an option here, but overall, Black's position is much weaker than it was, with the e-pawn isolated and with f4 no longer a threat in any line). 21. Nd5 (threatening NxB KxN Bg5+). Here's the position: + Show Spoiler [position] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. f3 Ba6 20. Ne3 g6 21. fxe4 fxe4 22. Nd5Black to playShow nested quote +On October 05 2011 02:46 Cloud9157 wrote:Nxe4 + Show Spoiler +d2 knight is garbage. Exchanging for his knight, which happens to be 10x better than ours, is a great move. After NxN PxN Nd2. He has 1 chance to defend with Bd7, but now his rook has no open lane until he moves the bishop again. I don't know whether to be happy that people are voting for the move I prefer or sad that they're doing so on the basis of a glance at the board and no reading of any posted analysis. Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 04:11 greggy wrote:double post + Show Spoiler +
Might as well use it to say that the 14. Nxe4 is basically creating more problems for white than it solves - yes, you remove then knight but you put a pawn in there instead - a pawn you can't realistically remove quickly. Then, your d2 knight is stuck in there for ever and we haven't even found a reasonable way to remove it and bring the bishop into play. Even from a basics perspective, Nxe4 isn't a developing move and it actually loses at least two tempos, which lets the black regroup.
Hence I think 14. O-O is a superior move and time'd be better spent analysing that.
You've posted some great analysis, greggy, but I really don't think that this kind of post is helpful. Yes, 14. Nxe4 creates some problems for White, which you've identified. It also has advantages for White. + Show Spoiler +it strengthens his central pawns That's where analysis is useful: to figure out which of these outweighs the other. You're tired of analyzing a move that is not your favorite--which I can understand--but as a substitute, you're making totally unsupported pronouncements about the position: + Show Spoiler [unsupported pronouncements] +yes, you remove then knight but you put a pawn in there instead - a pawn you can't realistically remove quickly Define "quickly". In every line that we've analyzed (including the lines that you yourself posted!), White manages to play f3 and remove or weaken the pawn before Black can take good advantage of it.
Then, your d2 knight is stuck in there for ever and we haven't even found a reasonable way to remove it and bring the bishop into play. Again, in every line that we've analyzed, including the lines that you yourself posted, White manages to take care of the d2 Knight with moves like Nb3 or Nc4 or (combined with f3/Re1) Nxe4.
Nxe4 ...actually loses at least two tempos.... As a blanket statement, this is simply not true. Both Nxe4 and the follow-up Nd2 create threats that Black must respond to; as for whether tempo is lost afterwards, that depends entirely on the line. For example, in the line I posted in the first spoiler of this post, every move of the Knight is accompanied by a threat that Black must respond to.
If you want to analyze 14. 0-0, go ahead and analyze it, and show why it's good. Or analyze 14. Nxe4 and show why it's bad. But please, don't just dismiss things that other people are taking seriously as a waste of time to take seriously, unless you can back your words up: that's not respectful to your teammates, imho. (On a side note, I don't even understand why you're suddenly so negative about 14. Nxe4. Last night you seemed optimistic about it: you even contributed the foundational analysis of it--which still has not been refuted. Why the change of heart?)
+ Show Spoiler + Regarding the analysis in the first spoiler:
14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. f3 Ba6 20. Ne3 ef 21. gf f4 22. Nd5 g5 23. Nxe7 Kxe7 24. Kf2 Rb3;
Now, to back up my unfounded claims.
I think that we've established that in almost every variation in which white plays f3, black is able to respond with e3 - and in the others where black can't do that, he can play c5 untroubled - this is because you don't have enough time to play O-O and Re1 and b4 and f3 and get your knight out of the way and black isn't just sitting there watching you either. For example, in the line I posted above, black doesn't ultimately need the e-pawn - the g5-f4 pawn structure is strong enough to block the dark-squared bishop out. Other variations involved 13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Ba6 18. Re1 but 17. .. Ba6 is inferior to Bb7, and the play would continue like 17. .. Bb7 18. d5 Bd8 19. Re1 Ba5 20. f3 ef 21. gf f4 with g5 next. Same as above basically.
So, if rook is on e1, black takes e4xf3 and plays f4->g5; if rook is anywhere else, e3->f4 is probably playable. If our rook is on f1 and black can't play e3, then we probably solved this game. Now to find a way to do it -.-
Next, I didn't see a good solution to the knight problem. Nb3 is playable in very few of the lines - only in the ones where we managed to play b4 untroubled, and b4 is hard to play when a5 as a counter exists. EvilNalu did a pretty good rebuttal of 16. Nc4 and 16. Nb1; the last option is Nf1 at some point in the future, which means that we need to play 16. Re1/d1 first and then put our knight pretty far away from the centre of the action. But then if we move the knight away, we can't play f3 reliably!
If you play 16. O-O however, you need to play 17. Re1/d1 since Nc4 and Nf1 are impossible, and that's a lot of time lost for not a lot of gain.
Lastly, Nxe4 loses at least two tempos: Nxe4 (could be O-O) and Nd2, which "forces" f5, but then the knight problem I just described appears and you have to spend time to coordinate your pieces again.
P.S. You also have to realise that in fact, unless the position opens up massively, dark-squared bishops will be rather useless for both sides, so I think it would be beneficial for the black to make a bishop-for-knight trade in certain lines. Just keep that in mind.
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On October 05 2011 06:15 greggy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 05 2011 04:56 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 02:21 EvilNalu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +OK, I can't find any way for black to get an advantage after 14.Nxe4 dxe4 15.Nd2 f5 16.0-0 c5 17.d5. In fact, I now think black should avoid 16...c5 altogether. However, I think I found him a pretty strong move: 16...Rd8. The general idea is to get the king out of the way and attack white's d pawn. For instance,
17.b4 loses a pawn after 17...Ke8 18.Bb2 a5 because 19.Rac1 axb4 20.axb4 Bxb4 and white doesn't have time to grab the c pawn.
17.Rd1 looks like white's best attempt to hold on to the pawn, but I think black gets a good position after 17...a5 18.Nc4 a4 where I don't see any way for white to prevent black's plan of Ba6-d3 and attacking white's d pawn after the king moves. Interested to hear your thoughts on this line. Interesting plan. I think that we're all right there, though. A lot of these lines seem to come down to tempo: Black tries to use his pressure to make gains before we have the chance to disentangle all of our pieces, we try to slow Black long enough to untangle ourselves and consolidate our material advantage. The two preparatory moves that you're forced to incorporate into your plan give us enough time to meet it, imo. Here's my tentative line, with Black following your latest plan: + Show Spoiler +OK, one thing seems certain: Black's Kingside pawns are a significant asset to him in these lines, especially when combined with ...Bd3, which has proven to be a thorn in our sides in line after line. The saving grace for White is that he can dismantle--or at least significantly weaken--these pawns with a well-timed f3. The question therefore becomes whether White has enough time to get in f3 before Black can take advantage of his Kingside pawns. Against EvilNalu's plan, thanks to the preparatory moves ...a5 and ...a4 he must incorporate, I think the answer is yes. Here's the line: 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 ( EvilNalu's move: Black prepares to attack the relatively weak d-pawn with his Rook) 17. Rd1 ( EvilNalu's move: White prepares to defend the d-pawn with his own Rook) 17...a5 ( EvilNalu's move: played to prevent b4. If White can safely get in b4, he can follow up with Nb3 and Bb2 to consolidate his position. Black's defense to b4 is ...a5, but after ...Ba6, he won't be able to play this [the Bishop blocks the pawn for the crucial move White needs to play Nb3, controlling a5], so he has to play ...a5 first. 18. Nc4 ( EvilNalu's move: There's no question that White needs to move his Knight pronto: on d2, it's singlehandedly blocking in all the rest of White's pieces, and not accomplishing very much itself. There are three safe moves for the Knight; the other two may be worth considering (especially Nf1), but Nc4 has the advantage of gaining a tempo by attacking the undefended a5 pawn.) 18...a4 ( EvilNalu's move (the last one that he gives): Black can't simply sacrifice the pawn: it's needed to prevent b4.) 19. f3 (White loses no time in attacking the e4 pawn [earlier this was not possible because of the response ...e3, but with the Knight on c4, ...e3 is no longer a viable option for Black].) 19...Ba6 (this move is part of Black's plan [...Ba6-d3], and he can play it now with tempo, as ...Ba6 attacks the undefended c4 Knight, so he may as well play it immediately. As for the e4 pawn, there's little to do about it: Black needs the pawn on e4 to support ...Bd3, so a move like ...exf3 is not a reasonable option if Black is following the EvilNalu plan. All he can do is leave the pawn where it is and if White plays fxe4 retake with his own f-pawn.) 20. Ne3 (White retreats his attacked Knight with tempo, as Ne3 is attacks the undefended f5 pawn.) 20...g6 (Black is forced to take another move to defend f5. 20...f4 instead is tempting, but fails (I believe) to 21. Ne5, double attacking the f4 pawn.) 21. fxe4 (White takes his chance to weaken Black's pawn structure) 21...fxe4 (Black recaptures the pawn. ...Bd3 is still an option here, but overall, Black's position is much weaker than it was, with the e-pawn isolated and with f4 no longer a threat in any line). 21. Nd5 (threatening NxB KxN Bg5+). Here's the position: + Show Spoiler [position] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. f3 Ba6 20. Ne3 g6 21. fxe4 fxe4 22. Nd5Black to playShow nested quote +On October 05 2011 02:46 Cloud9157 wrote:Nxe4 + Show Spoiler +d2 knight is garbage. Exchanging for his knight, which happens to be 10x better than ours, is a great move. After NxN PxN Nd2. He has 1 chance to defend with Bd7, but now his rook has no open lane until he moves the bishop again. I don't know whether to be happy that people are voting for the move I prefer or sad that they're doing so on the basis of a glance at the board and no reading of any posted analysis. Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 04:11 greggy wrote:double post + Show Spoiler +
Might as well use it to say that the 14. Nxe4 is basically creating more problems for white than it solves - yes, you remove then knight but you put a pawn in there instead - a pawn you can't realistically remove quickly. Then, your d2 knight is stuck in there for ever and we haven't even found a reasonable way to remove it and bring the bishop into play. Even from a basics perspective, Nxe4 isn't a developing move and it actually loses at least two tempos, which lets the black regroup.
Hence I think 14. O-O is a superior move and time'd be better spent analysing that.
You've posted some great analysis, greggy, but I really don't think that this kind of post is helpful. Yes, 14. Nxe4 creates some problems for White, which you've identified. It also has advantages for White. + Show Spoiler +it strengthens his central pawns That's where analysis is useful: to figure out which of these outweighs the other. You're tired of analyzing a move that is not your favorite--which I can understand--but as a substitute, you're making totally unsupported pronouncements about the position: + Show Spoiler [unsupported pronouncements] +yes, you remove then knight but you put a pawn in there instead - a pawn you can't realistically remove quickly Define "quickly". In every line that we've analyzed (including the lines that you yourself posted!), White manages to play f3 and remove or weaken the pawn before Black can take good advantage of it.
Then, your d2 knight is stuck in there for ever and we haven't even found a reasonable way to remove it and bring the bishop into play. Again, in every line that we've analyzed, including the lines that you yourself posted, White manages to take care of the d2 Knight with moves like Nb3 or Nc4 or (combined with f3/Re1) Nxe4.
Nxe4 ...actually loses at least two tempos.... As a blanket statement, this is simply not true. Both Nxe4 and the follow-up Nd2 create threats that Black must respond to; as for whether tempo is lost afterwards, that depends entirely on the line. For example, in the line I posted in the first spoiler of this post, every move of the Knight is accompanied by a threat that Black must respond to.
If you want to analyze 14. 0-0, go ahead and analyze it, and show why it's good. Or analyze 14. Nxe4 and show why it's bad. But please, don't just dismiss things that other people are taking seriously as a waste of time to take seriously, unless you can back your words up: that's not respectful to your teammates, imho. (On a side note, I don't even understand why you're suddenly so negative about 14. Nxe4. Last night you seemed optimistic about it: you even contributed the foundational analysis of it--which still has not been refuted. Why the change of heart?) Regarding the analysis in the first spoiler:
14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. f3 Ba6 20. Ne3 ef 21. gf f4 22. Nd5 g5 23. Nxe7 Kxe7 24. Kf2 Rb3;
Now, to back up my unfounded claims.
I think that we've established that in almost every variation in which white plays f3, black is able to respond with e3 - and in the others where black can't do that, he can play c5 untroubled - this is because you don't have enough time to play O-O and Re1 and b4 and f3 and get your knight out of the way and black isn't just sitting there watching you either. For example, in the line I posted above, black doesn't ultimately need the e-pawn - the g5-f4 pawn structure is strong enough to block the dark-squared bishop out. Other variations involved 13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Ba6 18. Re1 but 17. .. Ba6 is inferior to Bb7, and the play would continue like 17. .. Bb7 18. d5 Bd8 19. Re1 Ba5 20. f3 ef 21. gf f4 with g5 next. Same as above basically.
So, if rook is on e1, black takes e4xf3 and plays f4->g5; if rook is anywhere else, e3->f4 is probably playable. If our rook is on f1 and black can't play e3, then we probably solved this game. Now to find a way to do it -.-
Next, I didn't see a good solution to the knight problem. Nb3 is playable in very few of the lines - only in the ones where we managed to play b4 untroubled, and b4 is hard to play when a5 as a counter exists. EvilNalu did a pretty good rebuttal of 16. Nc4 and 16. Nb1; the last option is Nf1 at some point in the future, which means that we need to play 16. Re1/d1 first and then put our knight pretty far away from the centre of the action. But then if we move the knight away, we can't play f3 reliably!
If you play 16. O-O however, you need to play 17. Re1/d1 since Nc4 and Nf1 are impossible, and that's a lot of time lost for not a lot of gain.
Lastly, Nxe4 loses at least two tempos: Nxe4 (could be O-O) and Nd2, which "forces" f5, but then the knight problem I just described appears and you have to spend time to coordinate your pieces again.
P.S. You also have to realise that in fact, unless the position opens up massively, dark-squared bishops will be rather useless for both sides, so I think it would be beneficial for the black to make a bishop-for-knight trade in certain lines. Just keep that in mind. Thanks for founding your claims :-). Long response below (but I did my best to paragraph it and add colour to make it as readable as I could).
+ Show Spoiler [response] +Regarding the analysis in the first spoiler:
14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. f3 Ba6 20. Ne3 ef 21. gf f4 22. Nd5 g5 23. Nxe7 Kxe7 24. Kf2 Rb3 That's an interesting line. For one thing, your 20th move could lead to the following tactical line: 21. Nxf5 f2+ 22. Kxf2 Rf8 23. g4 g6 24. Bh6 Rxb2+ 25. Kg1 gxf5 26. Bxf8 Bxf8 27. gxf5, where I'm honestly not sure how to assess the position at a glance. Black has the Bishop pair (to our 0 minor pieces) on a fairly open board and in general has most of our pieces constricted on our back rank; on the other hand, we have two Rooks to Black's one, five pawns to his three, and three of our pawns are advanced, connected, and unopposed (two of them are passed).
Here's the position: I'm honestly interested in what people think of it.
+ Show Spoiler [position] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. f3 Ba6 20. Ne3 exf3 21. Nxf5 f2+ 22. Kxf2 Rf8 23. g4 g6 24. Bh6 Rxb2+ 25. Kg1 gxf5 26. Bxf8 Bxf8 27. gxf5![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jb43R.png) Black to play
It's our choice to enter that line or not. If we decide that it doesn't favour us, we can always play your suggested 21. gxf3 f4 22. Nd5 g5, where I'll admit that the g5-f4 pawn structure is quite useful to Black in constraining our dark-squared Bishop--but it's not as threatening as the previous f5-e4 pawn structure (imo), so we've taken a lot of the pressure off our position. At this point, I'd depart from your line: you have us trading our strong, central Knight for Black's dark-squared Bishop, but as you yourself say in your last sentence, the dark-squared Bishops are rather ineffective in this line, and a trade like this is likely beneficial to Black--so why make it?
Instead, let's keep our strong Knight and use it to pressure Black:
23. Nc3 (threatening to kill Black's a4 pawn, after which we can play b4 and solve all our problems.
23...Bb5 (only way to protect a4. However, as always, blocking the b-file creates an opportunity that we can take advantage of...)
24. Bd2 ([at last we can extricate our Bishop!] Our main plan here is NxB followed by Bc3.)
Here's the position:
+ Show Spoiler [position] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. f3 Ba6 20. Ne3 exf3 21. gxf3 f4 22. Nd5 g5 23. Nc3 Bb5 24. Bd2![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/63HEO.png) Black to play
I think that we've established that in almost every variation in which white plays f3, black is able to respond with e3 - and in the others where black can't do that, he can play c5 untroubled There are essentially only two lines that matter--(all the others have been discarded because of improvements for one side or another): the line (or collection of lines) featuring 16...Rd8, discussed above, and the line (or collection of lines) featuring 16...c5. In neither of these lines is Black able to respond to f3 with ...e3. It's true, as you say, that he is able to play ...c5 (this is out of our hands, including if we play 14. 0-0), but in my opinion (and EvilNalu's as well), this is better for us than for Black, as it allows us to get two connected, passed pawns, with d5. I should note that this is basically the entire motivation for playing 14. Nxe4 over 14. 0-0: it allows us to respond to ...c5 with d5, thus keeping our strong central pawns intact.
Re the specific lines you give, I address the 16...Rd8 line above: for your new line following 16...c5, see immediately below.
Other variations involved 13. a3 Be7 14. Nxe4 ef 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 .... [T]he play would continue like 17. .. Bb7 18. d5 Bd8 19. Re1 Ba5 20. f3 ef 21. gf f4 with g5 next. Same as above basically. Here, the line you suggest is a possibility, and it's true that 19. Re1 was at one point our main plan for making progress in this line, but now that I'm more familiar with these positions, I'd suggest, as an improvement for White, the thematic move for whenever Black has planted a Bishop on b7: 19. Nb3! (threatening the c5 pawn, and to fork Black's King and light-squared Bishop with 20. N(x)c5+).
+ Show Spoiler [position] +After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O c5 17. d5 Bb7 18. d6 Bd8 19. Nb3![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YDDZQ.png) Black to play
So, if rook is on e1, black takes e4xf3 and plays f4->g5; if rook is anywhere else, e3->f4 is probably playable. I'd say I agree with that assessment, and I also agree that the f4/g5 pawn structure offers some benefits to Black (in particular, restricting our dark-squared Bishop). Where we disagree seems to be in assessing just how much benefit this gives Black/how much we ought to worry about it: I think that the pawns on f4/g5 are a much smaller concern than the pawns on e4/f5 were, whereas you seem to consider them as or nearly as worrisome. It's hard to settle a debate like this in the abstract, but I would point to the lines above in support of my view that we're the ones with the long end of the stick overall.
Next, I didn't see a good solution to the knight problem. Nb3 is playable in very few of the lines - only in the ones where we managed to play b4 untroubled, and b4 is hard to play when a5 as a counter exists. It's hard to give a single answer to this, simply because where the Knight goes depends on the situation on the board. I'll try to give a summary:
- If we are able to play b4 untroubled (usually in situations where ...Ba6 has been played before ...a5) we can play Nb3 following b4.
- If Black has blocked the b-file with a Bishop (e.g. with ...Bb7 or ...Bb5), we can play Nb3 straightaway. (It's often a very strong move in these lines, owing to the Knight's ability to move from there to c5.)
- If we have moved the Rook from f1 and Black has not yet played ...Ba6, we can move the Knight to c4, whence it can go to e3 or, sometimes, a5. (For an example of this, see the 16...Rd8 line above [in which Rd1 was not a wasted move, as it was necessary for the defense of the d-pawn].)
- If we have played Re1 and f3 (as in your original line with 16...c5 17. d4 Ba6), the Knight will be rather useful in threatening to capture the pawn on e4 (after fxe4 fxe4) and in actually capturing it on f3 (after ...exf3).
- Nf1 remains an interesting theoretical possibility that we could resort to in some lines, but in the lines that have been suggested so far, we haven't needed to turn to it.
In short: yes, the Knight on d2 is a 'problem' for us--but it's a problem with multiple solutions!
Lastly, Nxe4 loses at least two tempos: Nxe4 (could be O-O) and Nd2, which "forces" f5, but then the knight problem I just described appears and you have to spend time to coordinate your pieces again. I disagree: Nxe4 forces ...dxe4 just as Nd2 forces ...f5. Of course counting tempi is not a cut-and-dried thing: whether you count a move as a loss of tempo or not depends on whether you consider it a move that would be otherwise desirable. I understand the perspective that ...dxe4 and ...f5 are moves that Black is happy to play, but considering that the other side of the coin is that White plays 14. Nxe4 in large part to induce those moves, it's begging the question to write the sequence off as a "tempo loss" for White.
As for the time it takes to co-ordinate our pieces, this is also not cut-and-dried. No matter what 14th move we play, co-ordinating our pieces is a problem that we need to deal with. As far as specifically dealing with the Knight following Nd2, I'll point again to the 16...Rd8 line, where every single Knight move is accompanied by a threat that Black must respond to.
P.S. You also have to realise that in fact, unless the position opens up massively, dark-squared bishops will be rather useless for both sides, so I think it would be beneficial for the black to make a bishop-for-knight trade in certain lines. Just keep that in mind. I'm with you on this. I'll just quote the old chess saw that "a threat is stronger than its execution", and mention that in certain lines, trading the Knight for the dark-squared Bishop is indeed a threat, when combined with the follow up Bg5+ (skewering the King and the Rook). I don't advocate actually trading the Knight for the Bishop without a good reason, though.
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As a general comment, I'd like to say that spending all this time analyzing 14. Nxe4 has given me a better understanding of the goals and motivations of that move, and the themes of the positions that it gives rise to. If you'd rather spend your time analyzing 14. 0-0 instead, I'm certainly not trying to discourage that: on the contrary, I think it would be kind of neat if we had advocates for more than one move, each of whom had spent enough time analyzing his move to really have a good idea of its goals, its benefits and drawbacks, and how it differed from the other options on the table.
I'm also not trying to get people to vote for 14. Nxe4 because I say it's good: on the contrary, the more skepticism the better. Dialectic gives both sides a better handle on things--even if they don't end up agreeing! The only thing I'm asking is that people don't dismiss a move that people are looking at if they haven't spent time looking at it themselves.
To be perfectly honest, I'd originally planned to vote 14. 0-0 in this position. If greggy and EvilNalu hadn't suggested that 14. Nxe4 wasn't even worth consideration, and if I hadn't wondered what they saw to make them say that, I doubt I would have spent long enough looking at it to change my mind.
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+ Show Spoiler +I think that greggy has pretty much killed your 19.f3 line. Black should probably immediately take 19...gxf3 to avoid any Nxf5 tactics after greggy's 19.f3 Ba6 20Ne3 exf3 line.
So, after 19...gxf3 20.gxf3 Ba6 21. Ne3 f4 22.Nd5 (Nf5 just leaves a similar position with a less well placed knight) 22...g5, black threatens lots of things. First, the f3 pawn is weak and Be2 will win it. Second, once the knight is removed from d5 (either by white's choice or by Bc4 or similar) black will be able to play Ke6, c5 and win the e pawn. Here are some lines:
23. Nc3 (preventing Be2) 23...Bc4 (stopping Nxa4) 24.Kf2 (it's actually pretty hard to come up with useful moves here already) 24...Ke6, there is no way to stop c5 where black wins back the pawn and his bishops become splendid.
23.Kf2 goes to pretty much the same thing after 23...Rb3 24.Nc3 Bb7 and then 25...Ke6
23.Nxe7 lines are just terrible after 23...Kxe7 24.Rb1 (the only thing I see that even looks like an attempt to get out of the bind) 24...Rb3 25.Kf2 Bb7 when 26...c5 is coming and black picks up the f pawn at his leisure.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wvd48.png)
