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United States4471 Posts
Quick thoughts:
I think people are letting Pau's performance in the playoffs affect their opinions about how good he is in general more than it should. Yes, he disappointed mightily in this postseason, but he wasn't alone in doing so. He still remains the most versatile and skilled PF/C in the NBA, and is about as consistent as they come. If you look at his pre-Allstar numbers, his post-Allstar numbers, and then his regular season numbers overall, you can see just how consistent the guy was.
Ellis, while a very talented player, cannot be considered top 10 until he's shown that he can thrive in a system where he isn't given free reign to chuck up whatever shot he wants, turn the ball over at a massive rate, and play all-out gambling defense, and not be yanked for any of it. Saying he would dominate in a more traditional or defense-oriented system is one thing, him providing any actual evidence of it is another. There's also the problem with him being a SG in a PG body, which makes him a tough fit for most teams.
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If Pau's lower production over the last two or three months is due to personal problems, he's top 10 and the best Lakers player (they can win with a bad Kobe performance, but not bad Pau performances).
If he just suddenly got too old, he's not top 10. He may have been shooting under 40%.
People want Durant to be top 10/MVP whatever so much that it's hard to say how good he is anymore. He's like the anti-Randolph.
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On May 25 2011 05:09 ilikejokes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:47 slyboogie wrote:On May 24 2011 13:38 Signet wrote:On May 24 2011 13:31 bigjenk wrote:
Once again portland fan, dissapointed west fan though as dirks shooting has been the only noteworthy thing happening in this series, I would love to see dirk and kidd as well as terry win a ring but i have been dissapointed in the shit reffing the nba has had for the past 10 or so years since they gave offensive players free reign. The only thing that has promoted is successful soft players and horribly inconsistent reffing since everything is a foul now. Actually I do agree with this. Maybe it is a hazy memory, but I don't remember soft bs fouls like these during the Jordan era, especially late 80s-early 90s. Basketball is a much better and much more watchable product since the rule changes. This concept of "soft" is so couched in nostalgia, revisionist history and vague xenophobia. Nobody should enjoy 1990's basketball (except Jordan and Olajuwan) more than they enjoy basketball now. The game is more fluid and easier to watch. I agree that a lot of basketball in the 90's (especially the latter half) was pretty unwatchable, but how can you say that basketball now is better than basketball in the Bird/Magic and early Jordan years? Between Magic, Bird, Olajuwon, Jordan, Barkley, and all of the other great players in that era it was certainly a much better league than in the early 2000's. Only recently has the talent in the league been anywhere close, with the influx of talented young players in the past few years. I hate the rules changes because 1) it ruins the pace and flow of the game when you have players going to the line so much (and this is exacerbated by the amount of flopping etc. that goes on) and 2) it messes things up historically because free throw shooting is such an 'efficient' scoring method that it makes players like Wade, LeBron, etc. seem much closer to Jordan than they really are. Ace rocking the anti-Rose bias, as usual. Also it seems like your top10 is based as much if not more on the players' historical performance than on just the current season, which is what the all-NBA teams are (supposed to be) based on.
I'm not even sure that we're arguing different things. Basketball may very well have been "better" in the 90s, by which I mean, the talent pool in the 90s may have been superior and the execution may have been better and the teams may have been better. I agree with some of that. The problem here is, is basketball better to watch today than 15 years ago? In aggregate? Yes.
Aesthetically, basketball was just not that fun to watch in the 90s. The stories were compelling, some of the players were charismatic and interesting, Jordan and Olajuwan had very beautiful games, but the game on the court? It's better today. Did you like watching Charles Barkley posting guys up from the 3 point line? Did you like Gary Payton shoving and slapping at everyone he defended? Talking about selfish basketball...what about Tim Hardaway or Penny Hardaway? Yeck.
If you think that the rule changes ruin the pace of basketball, than you are operating under a premise that basketball had pace to begin with. Before the rule change, defenses were incredibly bogging and it wasn't very fun either. I don't really care about the history stuff, so I'm not going to research it, but I suppose you may be right. Most people understand that no one will be Michael Jordan though, that Kobe (and I love Kobe) comparison was never really valid for knowledgeable fans.
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United States4471 Posts
On May 25 2011 07:04 igotmyown wrote:
If Pau's lower production over the last two or three months is due to personal problems, he's top 10 and the best Lakers player (they can win with a bad Kobe performance, but not bad Pau performances).
If he just suddenly got too old, he's not top 10. He may have been shooting under 40%.
People want Durant to be top 10/MVP whatever so much that it's hard to say how good he is anymore. He's like the anti-Randolph.
I don't know if it was due to personal problems, chemistry issues with the team, etc., but I feel pretty confident that it wasn't him being too old. Pau is only 30 years old, going on 31, and big men typically age a lot better than guards. Plus, Pau's game isn't predicated on athleticism or quickness, he relies on being crafty and smart to do what he does. I expect his game to age as well as Dirk's. If you look at his season averages over the past five seasons, there's been no dip in production at all. If anything, his rebounding has been up over the last two seasons.
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I think Pau was just running on tired legs. Three runs into the playoffs is brutal. Watching him in the two series they played, Pau just didn't look like he could finish moves with any flourish and he had less lift than he usually did - and he never had a lot of it. Even if he game isn't a "power" game, your grace and dexterity will diminish with fatigue as well.
Anyways, game 4, Chicago, Miami - exciting!
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Anyone else catch Michael Smith's rant on Heat fans today on Around the Horn? Made for a good chuckle.
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On May 25 2011 05:31 Ace wrote:
I think Monta Ellis has to play risky defense though because it's Golden State. But that's another discussion for another time.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and ask why GSW isn't doing better.. they seem to have a really talented group of players (atleast a few, Ellis, Curry, Lee, Wright), any thoughts on how they could do in a couple of years, perhaps with some lucky draft lotteries in the future?
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Missed first 5, then hit 8/11, then missed 8 in a row.
Man, Chicago is so streaky :<
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Wow, Dwyane Wade with great effort, foot work and serious ball skills.
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Meh, smells like a 4-1.. it's so frustrating to see how streaky the Bulls are.. doesn't help that Miami is playing so well :\\
EDIT: LOL! Defensive minded much, Booz?
EDIT2: DAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyuuum, Rose!
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Halftime interviews suck. They should interview bench warmers like Kurt Thomas so it doesn't sound like you are interviewing someone with a punctured lung.
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lol they expect to win this shooting 36%?
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How bizarre is it that your point guard has 10 points. But 6 of those points come from dunks.
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On May 25 2011 10:04 VENDIZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 05:31 Ace wrote:
I think Monta Ellis has to play risky defense though because it's Golden State. But that's another discussion for another time. I'm gonna go out on a limb and ask why GSW isn't doing better.. they seem to have a really talented group of players (atleast a few, Ellis, Curry, Lee, Wright), any thoughts on how they could do in a couple of years, perhaps with some lucky draft lotteries in the future?
They need a Howard/Duncan/Garnett type defensive stopper to be a legitimate team. They have two glaring weaknesses: inefficiency on offense and a lack of defense. Until they have someone like that I can't even evaluate what the team is.
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On May 25 2011 04:45 Ace wrote:
@jmbthirteen: He's still one of, if not the best post and high post defender in the NBA and can still score at will. He can still defend PFs and Center and even cover wing players on the PnR. How is he not top 10? His last 4 years in Boston have resulted in one of the best regular season stretches in NBA history when healthy and they almost made the Finals 3 years straight until his injury showed just how valuable he was. No one except Tim Duncan was as valuable on BOTH sides of the ball for the past decade.
There has been a clear decline in Garnett's play since Boston's championship imo. Yes he still plays good defense, but he's not some lock down, stay out of the lane defender. In the one game Amare was healthy in the playoffs, he lit Garnett up. And his offensive game now a days really benefits from his teammates.
I think Garnett has a defined role on the Celtics and he does is very well. But he is definitely not a number one option any more. Certainly he has games like game 3 vs Miami, but he doesn't have them at a very consistent rate.
I just don't see his defense being good enough to make up for the rest of his game which has fallen off a good bit since his prime. He's not a guy you go to possession after possession to get buckets. He's the third option on Boston for a reason. He is a great leader and motivator. But he's just not at that top 10 level any more. He's old and it shows.
EDIT: I just want to add that Boston epitomizes the idea of team basketball. And thats when they play their best too. At time Pierce gets too "me" focused and it hurts them. I don't see any of the big four being able to go to another team and being as successful as they are in Boston because they play so well together. The original big three are too old to do it without each other and Rondo not being able to shoot would be magnified quite a bit somewhere else. They all look good because they play so well together and if they were broken up, they wouldn't look that good on an individual level.
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On May 25 2011 10:25 VENDIZ wrote:
Meh, smells like a 4-1.. it's so frustrating to see how streaky the Bulls are.. doesn't help that Miami is playing so well :\\
EDIT: LOL! Defensive minded much, Booz?
EDIT2: DAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyuuum, Rose!
Ain't neva seen a PG dunk like that befo', unless you count Westbrook as a PG.
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Both teams are playing absolutely furious defense. It's playoff basketball definitely.
This Adidas Rose commercial is terrible.
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On May 25 2011 10:53 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 10:04 VENDIZ wrote:On May 25 2011 05:31 Ace wrote:
I think Monta Ellis has to play risky defense though because it's Golden State. But that's another discussion for another time. I'm gonna go out on a limb and ask why GSW isn't doing better.. they seem to have a really talented group of players (atleast a few, Ellis, Curry, Lee, Wright), any thoughts on how they could do in a couple of years, perhaps with some lucky draft lotteries in the future? They need a Howard/Duncan/Garnett type defensive stopper to be a legitimate team. They have two glaring weaknesses: inefficiency on offense and a lack of defense. Until they have someone like that I can't even evaluate what the team is.
Well.. most teams could use a guy like that, to be fair 
..imagine a Portland with Howard and a healthy Roy!
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
yea I hope they fired whoever decided Rose would make a good advertiser for a commercial. He sounds dumber then a box of rocks to be honest. Shoulda just had him doing something cool and not talking
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EPT
