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Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup - Page 14

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ZaplinG
Profile Blog Joined February 2005
United States3818 Posts
December 20 2011 18:11 GMT
#261
I think we could have taken them had I not died in the first turn. My posse had gone through hell and back and lived, so they were really strong. As soon as I blinked in, nearly all turned to my side, except for Roka, that sorc, and those two priests. The next turn would have eliminated everyone except for Roka, I'm assuming, and maybe the sorc.

I'm over it now though. I have a new HOPr that cleared lvl 15 dungeon/lvl 3 mines/lvl 6 lair/lvl 2 hive with relative ease. Im using this ridiculous axe that is nearly fully enchanted, but I cant seem to keep any followers alive long enough for them to get strong. Any tips? Seems like I'm just not fighting orcs anymore, and when Beogh gives me some, they just die instantly to whatever I'm fighting.

After this, I may write a little guide for the OP about HOPr :D
Don't believe the florist when he tells you that the roses are free
danl9rm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States3111 Posts
December 20 2011 18:17 GMT
#262
On December 21 2011 03:10 crate wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 21 2011 03:04 danl9rm wrote:
Ok, ZaplinG, you inspired me to try a HOPr. What stats do you think I should train up?

The most usual path would be train your weapon skill, Fighting, Armour, Shields if you're using a 1-handed weapon, and Invocations. Other skills are up to you, with Evocations usually being the most useful of the remaining skills, especially if you find or acquire a rod with a smite-targeted spell (Smiting and clouds mainly).

If you're playing 0.10 you might consider polearms as your weapon if you don't want to be the guy in the front of your orc group, since built-in reaching is really nice with allies, even though you'll hit less often.


Thanks crate, it's really good to have that knowledge as well, something to consider, but I was talking about attribute points :p
Str, Dex, or Int?
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
December 20 2011 18:22 GMT
#263
Ok here's what you do with attributes on all characters:

Raise your Str to either 3 times the EV penalty of the heaviest armour you want to wear, or to a point where you won't beat yourself up over inventory management, whichever is greater. Do not ever raise Str otherwise.

If you are going to cast any spells at all, raise Int on every level once you get your Str to an acceptable point as described above.

If you are not going to be casting spells and your Str is already acceptable, raise Dex.

That's it. Follow this with every character of any race and as any class.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
ZaplinG
Profile Blog Joined February 2005
United States3818 Posts
December 20 2011 21:05 GMT
#264
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Now I had a lvl 18 HOPr die at lvl 5 jelly to the Royal Jelly. I'd cleared out Mines/Hive/Elves/Lair. I was 1-3 shooting anything.Thought I was going to cruise to my first victory. Fuck that princely flan. He didn't even take damage when I hit him, just multiplied and laughed at me.

HOW DEEP IS THIS DAMN DUNGEON. WHY CANT I WIN.
Don't believe the florist when he tells you that the roses are free
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
December 20 2011 21:27 GMT
#265
Tough luck Zap

Hope you still write up a strat guide for HOPr, I'm interested in trying that next. So far my hammer weilding KoBe is still alive at XL 15. Cleared out Lair and Orc, but had a close call going deeper in the Dungueon with some sort of centaur that one-shot my summoned ogre before I teleported the heck out. :D
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
December 20 2011 22:54 GMT
#266
Slime is a really bad place to go as a HOPr. Your orcs will all die to the walls, your equipment will get corroded (unless you're using artifacts or a junk set of equips, though +5 or higher gear is immune to corrosion), Acid Blobs are basically Oklobs that move, and as you saw the Royal Jelly is a real pain for melee characters since you'll end up with a wall of jellies to cut through and quite possibly die in the process. There's also zero loot except for the Slime:6 vaults. Don't even bother with Slime, just get the standard Swamp/Snake/Shoals/Vault runes and go for a 3-rune win (Beogh is completely useless in the extended endgame anyway ... HOPr is a 3-rune build).

My NaTm is going smoothly now ... I think I made a mistake in training Dodging as high as I did so that led to a pretty rough midgame for a while since my other skills were under-trained, but at this point I'm pretty buff. I have teleportitis, but I'm not concerned since I just keep my ring of teleport control on (I want it anyway for semicontrolled blink) and there's a shop with 2 potions of cure mutation for if I want to cure it later, plus I have an amulet of stasis for -cTele floors (I think just Elf:5 and Zot:5, so maybe I'll just go cure it by then). I have Ice Form plus Freezing Cloud and Refrigeration online now for stuff that can die to cold, which is working nicely. I must be pretty strong since I killed Mennas while in Statue + haste + ozocubu's armour + shroud of golubria without any trouble whatsoever, and that's completely repeatable buffs. NaTm in statue form has quite amusingly huge HP too since it's +50% off of the already high base Nagas get.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
r33k
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Italy3402 Posts
December 20 2011 23:02 GMT
#267
On December 21 2011 06:05 ZaplinG wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Now I had a lvl 18 HOPr die at lvl 5 jelly to the Royal Jelly. I'd cleared out Mines/Hive/Elves/Lair. I was 1-3 shooting anything.Thought I was going to cruise to my first victory. Fuck that princely flan. He didn't even take damage when I hit him, just multiplied and laughed at me.

HOW DEEP IS THIS DAMN DUNGEON. WHY CANT I WIN.

Royal Jelly is easy peasy if you hit hard, and one of the hardest bosses in the game if you hit fast. Knowing where your character can and can't go is the key to 3rune victories.
Hipinretku
Profile Joined August 2007
Finland88 Posts
December 21 2011 00:00 GMT
#268
Also to add some more tips on the HOPr. I usually dont train invocations at all since it only effects on Smite damage and i never use smite due to its pretty high piety cost. just dont think its worth the experience to buff up an occasional skill.

Also train your orc followers, when dudes get some levels leave them back for awhile so they dont steal exp from the lower lvl orcs. I usually train like 4-5 dudes at the time and park the rest of the others somewhere else. Also this makes it so that if u face some aoe that rapes em orcs you dont go back to 0 followers.

Use orc mines to go get some followers. Then leave, go farm some exp in dungeon or whereever, park some orcs, and go back to get some more until u get a sick army. Finally use the sick army to finish ZOT.
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
December 21 2011 08:23 GMT
#269
So I got the rune from snakes and on my way back up a "strange portal' opened up either in snake or lair and has a tentacle coming out of it. Should I go in? :D Afraid to enter it as this is the farthest I've gotten (at XL 19 now).

What levels are the other runes on (or is it random)?
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
ZaplinG
Profile Blog Joined February 2005
United States3818 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-21 16:02:03
December 21 2011 14:21 GMT
#270
K here is my dirty and simple HOPr guide:

+ Show Spoiler +

Wield axes the whole game unless you find some sort of mace/polearm early on that is much better than your starting axe. Feel free to use shields, but know that eventually you should be transferring to a two handed massive damage weapon. Use whatever armor gives you the most defense, and dont worry about evasion.

I personally just pour all my stat points into strength until it hits 25 or so, then I switch to dex. Turn off any skill that isnt combat related. (You can leave on Invocations until 7-8)

HOPr as a class is very easy early on. You should be able to just auto explore/tab through the first four levels of the dungeon pretty quickly. Run away from any unique/centaur/ogre. Around level 4-5 of the dungeon, you will start being able to recruit your followers. These first followers are extremely important. Care for them like they are you children. Don't let them die, because the longer they stay with you, the stronger they get.

Try not to use Smite unless you are about to die or if an ogre/centaur is cleaning out your squad, since the piety penalty is pretty high.

Once you find the mines, dive right in and go to level two. Hopefully here you will recruit massive mobs of people and find some sweet Orc gear for you and your troops (that -4 +17 battleaxe, and +10 platemail is boss). Save level three and four incase you need more troops. Next, train your new and improved followers in the dungeon until level 10-11, then hit up the Lair and progress from there.

Controlling your mob is important. I didn't know this until a few runs ago, but you can press 't' and issue basic commands like wait/follow/attack this target. If you see an orc brother that is about to die, try to save him or swap positions with him so he isn't in immediate danger. I tend to use recall very liberally if it means saving my squad. Also, I found that they like to pick up nice armor and weapons off the ground, so give them a few turns to swap out their items after big battles.

My triage priority goes like this, starting at the top: Red Sorc -> Purple Sorc -> Priest/Knight -> Warrior -> Regular Orc.
It's hard to recruit Red Sorcs, so usually you get them by training up a Purple one rather than converting one in the mines. It's not impossible, just that you usually don't have enough piety when you first see them. Once you have a Red Sorc in your group, babysit him as much as possible and he will make your game infinitely easier.

As for magic, you will be too stupid to learn anything from books even at the end of the game, so just get rid of them as they are dead weight. Your main magic usage will come from wands/scrolls/potions. Blink and teleport are your best friends, so be sure to have at least one or two on you at all times as a sort of get out of jail card. Blink can also be used offensively in combination with recall (just think like arbiters in BW). Potions of invisibility/speed can save you from death as well. If you have to flee the scene, do so, but remember you have your followers to think about too. Recall them as soon as you are safe and regroup. If everyone dies, just head back to the mines and get more. Also, don't hesitate to spend a few hundred turns just standing around and letting your orcs heal before moving on.

K Thats about it. Stay away from Shoals since orcs are retarded about splashing around in the water fighting electric eels and shit. Slime is also a bad place for your men. Just leave them outside before you go in.

Confusion is your enemy. The last thing you want is to accidently pick a fight with one of your generals, only to have him turn mean and whoops now you have to fight this boss hoss unique that you've been training all game. It's bad for moral. When I'm confused, I just mash 's' a few times until it goes away, that way I don't piss off Beogh and kill my dudes. I also fear scrolls of immolation. It's best to identify-by-trial as many scrolls as possible before you recruit followers so that you don't accidently blow them up and put you in the penance hole.

Alright if you have any specific questions, I'll do my best to help! Good luck guys.
Don't believe the florist when he tells you that the roses are free
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
December 21 2011 15:47 GMT
#271
On December 21 2011 17:23 screamingpalm wrote:
So I got the rune from snakes and on my way back up a "strange portal' opened up either in snake or lair and has a tentacle coming out of it. Should I go in? :D Afraid to enter it as this is the farthest I've gotten (at XL 19 now).

What levels are the other runes on (or is it random)?

That is not a portal at all but a malign gateway which only exists to let that tentacle come through it. You can create your own via the level 7 spell of the same name. You can't actually enter it even if you tried.

Runes are on the last level of: Snake, Swamp, Shoals, Vault, Slime, Tomb, the four Hells (Cocytus, Gehenna, Dis, Tartarus), and five in Pan (four from the unique pan lords plus one random one) and one in the Abyss. Sixteen total, but of course only fifteen are obtainable in any single game.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
December 21 2011 16:42 GMT
#272
I've been playing around with Demonspawn a little bit. The mutations are really fun, but they feel very fragile, especially early on.

Any tips for starting one? What class combinations fit well with them?
Cheezewhiz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States5 Posts
December 21 2011 18:01 GMT
#273
Currently working on a level 14 dwarf fighter of trog. Finished lair to 8 but couldn't get into the vault. Could I teleport in since I have a ring of teleport and just hope to(is there monsters)? Finished orc lair. Any ideas where I should go next? I have swamps, shoals, elven, and slime pit entrances that i've seen.

I'm on and off with roguelikes for the past few years with nethack/slashem, adom, and currently DCSS. I'm not that good and have never beaten any of them but I love roguelikes for their difficulty and learning more and more of what the games have to offer. I find myself only playing roguelikes recently for singleplayer inbetween multiplayer games like SC2/SSF4/UMVC3/LOL because it provides a level of thinking/punishment not seen in todays singleplayers.
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
December 21 2011 19:21 GMT
#274
Well, won my NaTm. Halfway to 10 wins online now!

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/crate/morgue-crate-20111221-190420.txt

300 HP with no forms is pretty cool imo.

Fedhas is super fun. I certainly could have used him a lot more often for Oklobs (I burned 16 fruit to make a party of Oklobs at the stairs on D:1 and still had 20+ fruit left), which are actually pretty powerful even in Zot--I probably should have also used Rain to make a moat for said Oklobs. But once I got Freezing Cloud and Refrigeration online Fedhas didn't get much use, since I didn't really need any help at that point (and having plants around actually would be bad for Refrigeration). I got the Elf:5 ending with the moats, which basically meant it was just free experience from Freezing Cloud. I stumbled into a door vault in Zot:3, which turned out to be surprisingly uneventful since I just teleported away and then cleaned up the inhabitants one at a time.

Once I got through the kind of rough midgame (thanks to Fedhas there!) I just got rolling pretty good. I had basically an infinite number of uses of my wands of heal wounds at the end, as you can see from the morgue.

27 unarmed with Blade Hands and my stats was about 45 base damage at half a turn per attack. Statue Form was about 40*1.5 base damage at .75 turns per attack.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-21 20:29:24
December 21 2011 20:19 GMT
#275
On December 22 2011 00:47 crate wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 21 2011 17:23 screamingpalm wrote:
So I got the rune from snakes and on my way back up a "strange portal' opened up either in snake or lair and has a tentacle coming out of it. Should I go in? :D Afraid to enter it as this is the farthest I've gotten (at XL 19 now).

What levels are the other runes on (or is it random)?

That is not a portal at all but a malign gateway which only exists to let that tentacle come through it. You can create your own via the level 7 spell of the same name. You can't actually enter it even if you tried.

Runes are on the last level of: Snake, Swamp, Shoals, Vault, Slime, Tomb, the four Hells (Cocytus, Gehenna, Dis, Tartarus), and five in Pan (four from the unique pan lords plus one random one) and one in the Abyss. Sixteen total, but of course only fifteen are obtainable in any single game.


Oh weird, I had stood over it and clicked shift-click and it asked me to confirm if I wanted to go in and I said no lol. Maybe it was just a trick- was close to a zot trap. There is also another portal Ziggaraut or something (costs 3k+ gold to enter)... wiki says its "the ultimate challenge". Think I'll save that for last?

(Thanks for the guide Zap)
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
December 21 2011 20:45 GMT
#276
You can try to enter a malign gateway, but it will hurt you and blink you (according to the knowledge bots, anyway). It was probably created from the Zot trap nearby.

I think I've only gone into a Zig once or twice and that was a long time ago, so I don't really remember what I encountered (I remember entering one from Pan and finding some cure mutation potions to fix up the damage I'd done by entering Pan in the first place, then bailing out), but I know they're the most dangerous place in the game on later floors. You can go in and poke around if you get the gold lategame, but the difficulty climbs up per floor so be cautious if you don't want to die. :p
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
December 22 2011 19:45 GMT
#277
wtf red wasps are way stronger than I expected....
Writer
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
December 22 2011 20:32 GMT
#278
On December 23 2011 04:45 ]343[ wrote:
wtf red wasps are way stronger than I expected....

If you don't have rPois, don't let them hit you, unless you like dying.

---

I have another HEAE going now, have swamp + snake + vault + slime plus all the hell runes except for Dis, heading there next. First time I haven't gone splat grabbing the fifth rune online and everything feels pretty easy with infinite MP--Necromutation channeling--plus Chain Lightning and Tornado (and cblink and haste and swiftfly for escaping), so I hope to keep that up. The only non-unique I can see giving me any problems are maybe Pit Fiends, since they have rElec++ and hellfire, but I'm close to 200 HP now and can toss icicles at them while I tornado so I think I should be ok.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
December 22 2011 21:08 GMT
#279
On December 23 2011 05:32 crate wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2011 04:45 ]343[ wrote:
wtf red wasps are way stronger than I expected....

If you don't have rPois, don't let them hit you, unless you like dying.

---

I have another HEAE going now, have swamp + snake + vault + slime plus all the hell runes except for Dis, heading there next. First time I haven't gone splat grabbing the fifth rune online and everything feels pretty easy with infinite MP--Necromutation channeling--plus Chain Lightning and Tornado (and cblink and haste and swiftfly for escaping), so I hope to keep that up. The only non-unique I can see giving me any problems are maybe Pit Fiends, since they have rElec++ and hellfire, but I'm close to 200 HP now and can toss icicles at them while I tornado so I think I should be ok.


so... I had rPois, and I was a KoBe, and I died to a red wasp zombie wtf?
Writer
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 00:57:17
December 23 2011 00:53 GMT
#280
Got it! My first 15-rune win online, and my first win with more than 4 runes since like 0.5. One death away from my first streak too.

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/crate/morgue-crate-20111223-004541.txt

Necromutation with Sif is easymode lategame (even more trivialized if you have cblink + haste + swiftness since nothing can keep up with you). I ninja'd most of the Pan/Hell runes since most of the uniques have rElec so Chain Lightning doesn't really work (and they all hit really hard anyway). 27 stealth is really good.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
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