EPTedit : Counterspell now costs 3 mana while imbaduress costs 1 black mana.
Does anyone remember cabal therapy+duress?
Old Magic the Gathering cards vs New ones
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
edit : Counterspell now costs 3 mana while imbaduress costs 1 black mana. Does anyone remember cabal therapy+duress? | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
I could seriously nerd rage about how my deck that used to be worth close to 500 dollars is probably worth pennies by now. Cards that used to be a good 10 bucks a decade ago are trash now. | ||
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3772
Czech Republic434 Posts
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
On January 07 2011 06:37 3772 wrote: All sets with the new design (Mirodin and newer) are kinda boring, except Zendikar which was pretty good (for draft at least, not interested in constructed that much, as I don't want to spend 300+$ on Jaces and other stuff). I loved construct. Turning shitty cards into a stomp deck was awesome. I remember playing 20 Islands 2 Citadels of Pain 3 Thwart 3 Counterspell 3 Mana Leak 4 Acumulated Knowledge 4 Cloud Fairies 4 Mercadian Fairy 2 Can't remember but every time it dealt damage i could search X card in the opponent's deck & remove that card from the game (i know IMBA) Djins Loxodon Warhammers I just can't remember exactly but it was a monocromatic blue flying counter shitstorm. Roflstomping "serious" decks with fairies was insane. | ||
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Moody
United States750 Posts
On January 07 2011 06:35 Mortality wrote: MTG... I could seriously nerd rage about how my deck that used to be worth close to 500 dollars is probably worth pennies by now. Cards that used to be a good 10 bucks a decade ago are trash now. You have no idea what nerd rage is until you've played magic competitively. Every time a new set is released, you have to spend about 300 bucks on new cards (assuming you already have a play-set of your mana base and all uncommons), which will retain their value for at MOST 2 years. "Oh, a new mythic rare that is good!" Bam! 200-400 for a playset. This is the reason I quit playing magic. I don't enjoy kitchen table magic, and can't justify spending 2-3 grand a year on cards. | ||
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LazyMacro
976 Posts
I haven't played or drafted in a while, so I don't know what cards are good and such, but shit. | ||
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XenOmega
Canada2822 Posts
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Wesso
Netherlands1245 Posts
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Szgk
Poland112 Posts
Plus you don't need to play with plainswalkers. | ||
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
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FishFuzz99
United States152 Posts
Most EDH cards tend to be old stuff anyway. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2011 06:27 misaTO wrote: edit : Counterspell now costs 3 mana while imbaduress costs 1 black mana. Does anyone remember cabal therapy+duress? Sure, you can nitpick on Cancel, or you can realize that because Mana Leak is in every format, it's completely irrelevant anyway, so the fact that it's strictly worse than Counterspell doesn't matter. And I recall a competitive player describing Duress as "training wheels" for Cabal Therapy--by mid-game 1/game 2, a good player should be able to blind Therapy for priority targets, without the need to spend deck slots on Duress. On January 07 2011 08:12 Judicator wrote: So you hate the new cards but like Mercadia and Urza....right...that makes total sense. Seriously. Urza's Saga and Mercadian Masques were comparatively poor sets. Urza's just had enough degenerate broken mechanics that it completely wrecked Type I as a format, and the power level of Mercadian Masques was by contrast comparatively low and many of the card designs were very uninspired. Compounding the problem was how Masques block constructed was completely dominated by the overly self-synergistic Rebel mechanic. If you're going to reminisce about old metagames, at least reminisce about good ones--Urza/Masques was one of the worst times to be playing competitive Magic (the only other contenders IMO being Onslaught/Mirrodin before the bans, or Mirrodin/Kamigawa). | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On January 07 2011 06:27 misaTO wrote: Am I the only one who would love to see Urza's or Mercadia re-edited? I know collectors would totally rage @ this but the metagame was much more fun back then. I don't know what you're doing putting Mercadian Masques and Urza' Saga in the same sentence in terms of power cards. Urza's Saga as a block was the most powerful thing they did until Mirroden. Masques was universally garbage because Wizards was afraid to make any good cards following Urza's. I'm guessing those two sets were just when you played. You also missed the retro set. Time Spiral brought back a ton of old cards. It was also the best block in limited... like ever. I haven't actually played competitively since Lorwyn/Shadowmoore sets so I don't know if Scars really is terrible. Heard really good things about Alara and Eldrazi but never played it at a tournament level. | ||
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Durak
Canada3684 Posts
 Also, according to wikipedia, "The original mulligan allowed a player a single redraw of seven new cards if that player's initial hand contained seven or zero lands" I thought that was still the rule. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
Also, lul at turn 0 hulk flash hahahahahahhahaha Theres something about a deck that wins on turn 0 that is just funny | ||
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dignity
Canada908 Posts
It's true that some of the new cards in the new sets can be a bit unfun but there were cards like that in every set. | ||
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
![[image loading]](http://magiccards.info/scans/en/pr/56.jpg) On January 07 2011 08:32 TheYango wrote: Sure, you can nitpick on Cancel, or you can realize that because Mana Leak is in every format, it's completely irrelevant anyway, so the fact that it's strictly worse than Counterspell doesn't matter. And I recall a competitive player describing Duress as "training wheels" for Cabal Therapy--by mid-game 1/game 2, a good player should be able to blind Therapy for priority targets, without the need to spend deck slots on Duress. Seriously. Urza's Saga and Mercadian Masques were comparatively poor sets. Urza's just had enough degenerate broken mechanics that it completely wrecked Type I as a format, and the power level of Mercadian Masques was by contrast comparatively low and many of the card designs were very uninspired. Compounding the problem was how Masques block constructed was completely dominated by the overly self-synergistic Rebel mechanic. If you're going to reminisce about old metagames, at least reminisce about good ones--Urza/Masques was one of the worst times to be playing competitive Magic (the only other contenders IMO being Onslaught/Mirrodin before the bans, or Mirrodin/Kamigawa). In response, counterspell (?) As You mentioned Lin Siivi retarded combo, i must ask if you remember the rising waters thingy. That was soooooooo anoying.. On January 07 2011 08:46 Offhand wrote: I don't know what you're doing putting Mercadian Masques and Urza' Saga in the same sentence in terms of power cards. Urza's Saga as a block was the most powerful thing they did until Mirroden. Masques was universally garbage because Wizards was afraid to make any good cards following Urza's. I'm guessing those two sets were just when you played. You also missed the retro set. Time Spiral brought back a ton of old cards. It was also the best block in limited... like ever. I haven't actually played competitively since Lorwyn/Shadowmoore sets so I don't know if Scars really is terrible. Heard really good things about Alara and Eldrazi but never played it at a tournament level. You MUST HAVE SUFFERED TINKER/MANTICORE DECKS!!! I dunno why, but i have always favored a deck with a system over "combo decks" Did anyone play a Fires of yavimaya deck? Flametongue Kavus, Fires, Spiritmongers Cloaks? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:14 misaTO wrote: You MUST HAVE SUFFERED TINKER/MANTICORE DECKS!!! It's not just one deck or another. It's a whole slew of degenerate cards/combos that basically ruined the eternal formats (particularly Vintage, since by design there can't be any bans in Vintage). I dunno why, but i have always favored a deck with a system over "combo decks" Then why do you like Urza block so much? Seeing as it almost destroyed all non-combo decks in the eternal formats. There's a reason that the winter in which Urza's Legacy was released is colloquially known as "Combo Winter". | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:14 misaTO wrote: In response, counterspell (?) As You mentioned Lin Siivi retarded combo, i must ask if you remember the rising waters thingy. That was soooooooo anoying.. You MUST HAVE SUFFERED TINKER/MANTICORE DECKS!!! I dunno why, but i have always favored a deck with a system over "combo decks" Did anyone play a Fires of yavimaya deck? Flametongue Kavus, Fires, Spiritmongers Cloaks? I think you like to use a very broad definition of combo decks. Still the argument stands, Urza and Masques were the worst so many annoying cards that demanded an answer then and there or you'll be staring down shit. Onslaught was looking alright until Mirrodin reared it's ugly head. Scars is too early to be judged although Besieged right now looks very bland. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:26 Judicator wrote: I think you like to use a very broad definition of combo decks. Still the argument stands, Urza and Masques were the worst so many annoying cards that demanded an answer then and there or you'll be staring down shit. Onslaught was looking alright until Mirrodin reared it's ugly head. Scars is too early to be judged although Besieged right now looks very bland. From what I've seen, WotC goes in cycles--they start with a block that's too strong, follow up with one that's too weak, then end up with a decent block. Urza (too strong) Masques (too weak) Invasion (good) Mirrodin (too strong) Kamigawa (too weak) Ravnica (good) | ||
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
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Orpheos
United States1663 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:29 TheYango wrote: From what I've seen, WotC goes in cycles--they start with a block that's too strong, follow up with one that's too weak, then end up with a decent block. Urza (too strong) Masques (too weak) Invasion (good) Mirrodin (too strong) Kamigawa (too weak) Ravnica (good) scars is pretty yucky imo. it seems like it was designed mostly for limited. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:32 Orpheos wrote: scars is pretty yucky imo. it seems like it was designed mostly for limited. See, you start with that train of thought, then you realize that Infect is one of the worst Limited mechanics ever designed. It's poor Limited design when Infect decks want zero non-Infect creatures and non-infect decks want zero Infect creatures, because it makes the Infect player's pick orders overly linear and simplistic. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
Its a product. If they release new sets that are of the same power as the old ones then people have no incentive to buy them. Therefore every new release becomes slightly more OP in order to force people to go out and get it in order to not get raped. I stopped playing years ago, but me and a few friends pooled all our cards in a big box and we still sometimes pull em out every once in a while, its a fun game. The art also went to shit mostly. I remember playing a game where you pulled out random cards and tried to call the artist just by looking at the style. Good fucking luck doing that anymore. Plus all the really crazy talented artists left or shifted to the more simplified style that they decided to go with in the new sets. I missed when each artist contributed in completely their own style without even trying to make a unified body of work. ![[image loading]](http://www.mtgvault.com/images/cards/USG/Voltaic_Key.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://vandel.dk/magic/artifact/Memory%20Jar.jpg) | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2384 Posts
On January 07 2011 06:39 misaTO wrote: I just can't remember exactly but it was a monocromatic blue flying counter shitstorm. Roflstomping "serious" decks with fairies was insane. It's funny because Faeries decks have been tearing up constructed recently, deck to beat in Extended, etc | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:47 Turbovolver wrote: It's funny because Faeries decks have been tearing up constructed recently, deck to beat in Extended, etc To be fair, I don't think anyone playing during Urza/Masques would be able to predict that cards like Spellstutter Sprite and Mistbind Clique would get printed. It's also probably the least surprising thing about this Extended format--Lorwyn/Alara Standard + new Jace = mega-dominant Faeries. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:41 TheYango wrote: See, you start with that train of thought, then you realize that Infect is one of the worst Limited mechanics ever designed. It's poor Limited design when Infect decks want zero non-Infect creatures and non-infect decks want zero Infect creatures, because it makes the Infect player's pick orders overly linear and simplistic. there are ok infect picks in non-infect decks and vice versa tons of mechanics have been parasitic or super-linear and limited formats have still been fine, limited holds up to that kind of design (which I really dislike) a lot better than constructed | ||
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pwnageplus
34 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2011 11:08 UniversalSnip wrote: there are ok infect picks in non-infect decks and vice versa tons of mechanics have been parasitic or super-linear and limited formats have still been fine, limited holds up to that kind of design (which I really dislike) a lot better than constructed I'm not saying that it ruins the format, but I would think that a set "designed with Limited in mind" would deliberately try to avoid those types of mechanics. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On January 07 2011 11:24 TheYango wrote: I'm not saying that it ruins the format, but I would think that a set "designed with Limited in mind" would deliberately try to avoid those types of mechanics. Yeah, fair enough. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:42 sob3k wrote: Obviously magic has gone downhill. The art also went to shit mostly. I remember playing a game where you pulled out random cards and tried to call the artist just by looking at the style. Good fucking luck doing that anymore. Plus all the really crazy talented artists left or shifted to the more simplified style that they decided to go with in the new sets. I missed when each artist contributed in completely their own style without even trying to make a unified body of work. Glad you only recall the good ones but none of the shitty ones. Wizards raised the average art quality by a pretty good amount since the old days. Let's just ignore the Zendikar lands while we're at it. | ||
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
Also, Fires of Yavimaya was the scourge of my existence. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On January 07 2011 11:32 Judicator wrote: Glad you only recall the good ones but none of the shitty ones. Wizards raised the average art quality by a pretty good amount since the old days. Let's just ignore the Zendikar lands while we're at it. Yeah, thats my whole point...I liked that there was no "average art quality" to raise, because each card was so different. I thought those weird cards with silly line drawings and stuff were funny and interesting. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2011 14:22 sob3k wrote: Yeah, thats my whole point...I liked that there was no "average art quality" to raise, because each card was so different. I thought those weird cards with silly line drawings and stuff were funny and interesting. Each person is going to like different art pieces. It's sort of hard to say that it's better or worse. You can definitely say, though, that the art is more polished than before. And on your point of recognizing art by artist--I actually don't find it any harder on the newer ones than the older ones, but that might be because a lot of the newer artists are people like Wayne Reynolds, who I recognize from other fantasy artwork. | ||
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iSiN
United States1075 Posts
On January 07 2011 06:35 Mortality wrote: MTG... I could seriously nerd rage about how my deck that used to be worth close to 500 dollars is probably worth pennies by now. Cards that used to be a good 10 bucks a decade ago are trash now. Too bad cards that used to be worth pennies are worth 50+ dollars now (Force of Will, Tarmagoyf) | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2011 14:53 iSiN wrote: Too bad cards that used to be worth pennies are worth 50+ dollars now (Force of Will, Tarmagoyf) When was Tarmogoyf worth pennies? It was pretty obviously good and got up to $20 while it was still in Standard ffs. | ||
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Infie
Netherlands59 Posts
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
For example, Ice Age had Polar Kraken. At a cost of 8UUU, it was an 11/11 trampling creature with the ability "Cumulative Upkeep: sacrifice a land." It also entered the battlefield tapped. Compare that to the more modern (Darksteel set) Darksteel Colossus. At the same mana cost (11), it is easier to cast, same power, same toughness, and also tramples. However, instead of the negative abilities of coming into play tapped and cumulative upkeep of sacrificing lands, the Darksteel Colossus is indestructible. Which would you rather have? For the sake of being as clear as possible, I will note that the Darksteel Colossus can't be put into play via graveyard recursion, because whenever it enters the graveyard from anywhere, it is immediately shuffled back into your library. For the competitive crowd, this is probably a big thing. However, for casual players, the Colossus is clearly a better card. For a second example, for a long time, Grizzly Bears were a definitive second turn summon, a 1G. It had no abilities, but was the only 2/2 summon for 2 mana. Then came 2/2 creatures for 1G with abilities. More recently, there has been the 2/3 Elven warrior for GG, and the 3/2 trampling Garruk's Companion, also for GG. With these options available, there's no point in including Grizzly Bears in a deck anymore. Hell, one of the 1G 2/2 creatures with abilities I mentioned earlier is Ashcoat bears. It is identical in every way to Grizzly Bears, right down to creature type, except that you can play it as an instant. I understand that some of the changes they've made to cards has probably been for balance reasons (cancel as opposed to counterspell, lightning bolt to shock, and then they brought back lightning bolt), this general progression of newer cards getting more for the same mana seems like a strategy to increase profits from the casual sector of the player base - the people who don't play tournaments and just play with their friends. | ||
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bobbob
United States368 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:42 sob3k wrote: This doesn't actually work as a combo, because sacrificing it is part of the cost. On January 07 2011 08:12 Judicator wrote: As You mentioned Lin Siivi retarded combo, i must ask if you remember the rising waters thingy. That was soooooooo anoying.. High Tide/Reset/Turnabout isn't nearly as annoying as Ad Nauseum Tendrils of Agony combined with rituals and tutors and such. Playing against Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top is annoying. All the old sets had the good spells, but they had some really shitty creatures (playing beta sealed online for fun means you are going to be running demonic tutors with scathe zombies). As people have often complained, there is 'Creature Creep' where all the creatures slowly get better than the ones before them. Originally Serra Angel was an amazing card, you had a 4/4 beater with evasion for 5, and it could block. Then came exalted angel. Why block when you can just gain 4? Also more toughness and morph, meaning it can swing on turn 4, but on the other hand it cost 6 to hardcast. Then came BSA. 5/5 Flying Lifelink for 5. Better than most other creatures. I will also point out: Tarmogoyf. Anyway, basically Urza Block was the last of sets having all sorts of crazy spells. MM Block had a few great spells (Gush, Port, etc). Invasion didn't really have much, it brought Fact or Fiction, Vindicate was pretty broken, as was Pernicious Deed and a few of the Wishes. Then came more tribal stuff... Piledriver and such. I luckily stopped playing IRL here. Storm came out Then came affinity >.> Then we got Jitte and Gifts Ungiven, Sensei's Divining Top. Coldsnap gave us Counterbalance to go with Top. Trygon Predator came next, then we had all sorts of crazy stuff happen in the Time Spiral Block. goyf, and then suddenly Dredge came up with Bridge from below. Then omgwtf Fae dominates the standard format. Too many tribal cards makes stuff too good, like Spellstutter Sprite, Bitterblossom, Cryptic Command, Vendilion Clique. Thoughtsieze becomes another form of Duress. Vivid lands allow standard and extended decks to run absurd numbers of colors and not get color screwed. Jund and the other shards (Jund wins) rolls in with even more broken cards for all formats, Bloodbraid Elf, Blightning, Rhox War Monk, Sprouting Thirinax, Putrid Leech, Ad Nauseam, Cruel Ultimatum. Then comes Rise of Eldrazi, casual players hate eldrazi because they basically read "When I attack, target player wins the game." Goblin Guide makes red decks stronger. We go from Jackal Pup to Goblin Guide... We get JACE THE MIND SCULPTOR, who provides a free brainstorm each turn, and then has other uses, such as being a win condition with enough control (IE after you brainstorm a few times). We also see Iona, who is another annoying target to reanimate. Most recently we've had the Titan cycle, so we go from Craw Wurm to Primeval Titan. Wurmcoil Engine is like a 6th Titan. Basically since Shards, tons of creatures are suddenly absurdly strong, Overall, if you want to play constructed, play Legacy, since although it costs more than a Standard deck, but you don't need to replace 1/3 of your deck every year. Plus the cards in Legacy hold their value better than cards in standard, since cards that rotate out are suddenly forgotten. Plus, some really cheap decks are actually good, you can make a pretty strong burn deck for <$100, but it's not too fun, since it's basically 'cast all your stuff, win, or run out of spells and lose.' But it beats either buying 3-4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor or 4 Titans before even starting to make a deck. My favorite format online would definately be the random format tournament, where you have ~60-80 minutes to make a deck out of cards in a random core set, 2 large sets and 4 smaller sets (legacy banlist). Lots of fun and nostalgia, since you play decks that were great in standard years ago, mixed with random new cards, as well as seeing how some semi-new decks fare against old decks. Since this is online, you don't have to worry about price of cards and all, you just make a good deck and play it. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2011 15:24 bobbob wrote: This doesn't actually work as a combo, because sacrificing it is part of the cost. And the post you quoted had nothing to do with the two cards as a combo, but about their art. | ||
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SpoR
United States1542 Posts
For mtg to survive they unfortunately have to constantly pump out expensive new ridiculous cards otherwise it will stagnate etc. To combat the spend 300$ every 3 months to play, you're better off playing draft and selling/trading cards for packs and shit. You can still win tournies and money and etc and it arguably takes more skill to play draft. | ||
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Flushot
United States218 Posts
I find myself disgusted with card prices as well since many of the other mythic rares and regular rares happen to be trash. There's a few decent cards and then 4-5 broken cards that cost anywhere from 15-50 USD. It kinda makes me sad when I think about it. | ||
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Goragoth
New Zealand1065 Posts
 While lots of cards do go down in value a lot when they cycle out of Standard, some of the older cards have gained a lot in value. Back in the day I made sure to collect play sets of all the dual lands (the real, Revised/Unlimited Edition ones) and two play sets of some. They have since almost tripled in value, making me very happy. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
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ChrisXIV
Austria3553 Posts
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braammbolius
179 Posts
On January 07 2011 08:53 Durak wrote: I remember when Ice Age was the new set. This lol, snow-covered-lands were soo pretty :D | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:29 TheYango wrote: From what I've seen, WotC goes in cycles--they start with a block that's too strong, follow up with one that's too weak, then end up with a decent block. Urza (too strong) Masques (too weak) Invasion (good) Mirrodin (too strong) Kamigawa (too weak) Ravnica (good) Eh but you can't read that too much i mean the rath cycle before the artifact cycle was very strong you're also missing odyssey cycle which i would call good or too strong if anything after invasion and i think onslaught which i didn't stick around for so i can't judge. I think they aim for blocks to have a strong good and weak inside each block/cycle because for the most part that's how i remember it. I stop playing what 8th? edition when they betrayed my eyes with change! Mostly i just needed to stop spending shit tons of money on cards and found w.e reason i could. | ||
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PencilZerg
Denmark76 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:42 sob3k wrote: Obviously magic has gone downhill. Its a product. If they release new sets that are of the same power as the old ones then people have no incentive to buy them. Therefore every new release becomes slightly more OP in order to force people to go out and get it in order to not get raped. I stopped playing years ago, but me and a few friends pooled all our cards in a big box and we still sometimes pull em out every once in a while, its a fun game. The art also went to shit mostly. I remember playing a game where you pulled out random cards and tried to call the artist just by looking at the style. Good fucking luck doing that anymore. Plus all the really crazy talented artists left or shifted to the more simplified style that they decided to go with in the new sets. I missed when each artist contributed in completely their own style without even trying to make a unified body of work. I feel a lot of people having great experiences when they were younger, saddened by the fact that things evolve. There has been great art over the years for sure - Whenever I found a Ron Spencer piece I'd try and search for the hidden names in the artwork, see if you can find them : D + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ai/194.jpg) Hint: + Show Spoiler + Dale And also: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGART/Goblin%20Grenade.jpg) Hint: + Show Spoiler + Mike But overall, I think the artwork still has improved. It has gone away from simplistic, often childish, drawings to more intricate and polished art. Consider some of Phil Foglio's art: (and he made a lot) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://store.timezonegaming.com/images/Timeshifted/66.jpg) Ron Spencer's sister, Terese Nielsen, still makes art for mtg (they worked together on the "reflection" series of shadowmoore) and is one of the few who still has an abstract style. She uses a lot of geometry in her pieces, and they are beautiful: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/arcana/239_naturesspiral.jpg) The name of the of the card is Nature's Spiral, the card let's you grab a permanent from your graveyard and the flavour text goes like this: "Like nature, the fern spirals back on itself, eternally seeking its own center." Yea, I am a sucker for anything with a green feel. At times I missed the unpolished, raw style of previous series, but personally I believe that the art changed for the better. Counterspell now costs 3 mana while imbaduress costs 1 black mana. Does anyone remember cabal therapy+duress? I am certain that the fact that they are tinkering around with (and not just lessening) the mana cost of equivalent spells is a tell-tale sign, that they are actually attempting to balance the game. I read an interview with Mark Rosewater, the lead designer, in which he stated that he was wary of the fact that as a business, it was tempting to turn up the power of cards with every set to keep people buying. Off topic: He also wrote this, and similar, hilarious facebook conversation between the colours: (remember, it's a facebook conversation on a wall, start from the bottom) http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/fb/mr343 The game is generally evolving to a state where creatures are being comparatively stronger. And honestly, though I feel some newer creatures are way too strong to be any fun, I feel this is the right direction in which to move. | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
As far as the current metagame, I have to say I don't like it very much. I was always a constructed player, but today I only play limited on Magic Online, because I find most constructed decks too easy and boring to play. Extended is the most interesting format; if you're an old-school player who wants to get back into it, I would recommend starting there. Otherwise, EDH and Cube are both very very skill-intensive and fun formats, and they don't really require much in the way of investment. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
The other change is the colors it's like the bumped up the saturation and moved for a more dynamic change of darks and lights. which i never cared for things often aren't so bright and colorful so i've always found it a bit garish. infact... + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/JvlVO.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Y0qZI.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/TqiDa.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/PCRQK.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/E8y7m.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/rPHkO.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/6jNns.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/vTPmR.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Odwii.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/TCevL.jpg) | ||
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Goragoth
New Zealand1065 Posts
On January 07 2011 18:25 semantics wrote: As far as art direction, i dislike the addition of the extra boarders, although it may in theory clean up the look atleast in terms of reading goes, it think it's ugly the addition of the color white to the boarder surrounding the image and text i think is ugly, i also think that they need to deemphasize the boarder that acts as a transition between the two. They can keep the gradient over the text and keep the text black but eh i don't feel for the style change. The other change is the colors it's like the bumped up the saturation and moved for a more dynamic change of darks and lights. which i never cared for things often aren't so bright and colorful so i've always found it a bit garish. infact... + Show Spoiler + I agree. They improved readability of the cards but made them look tackier (the new look, I find, would have been better suited to a sci-fi CCG). And who cares about readability? Anybody who has played more than a couple of games will recognize the cards by the artwork anyway, you don't spend a whole hell of a lot of time reading the cards when you play. | ||
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SpoR
United States1542 Posts
And I really really disliked this change for artifacts. They look like white cards now, so dumb. | ||
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undyinglight
United States611 Posts
The power level goes up year by year, it is really starting to feel quite noticeable in the game that the rate of which cards are increasing in power (on average) from set to set, is really getting out of hand. A casual deck from 1995 could hold fair against a casual deck from 2000. A casual deck from 2005 would likely be demolished by a casual deck from 2010. I am getting out of the normal game for the most part, I want to get into Elder Dragon Highlander, but very very few people in my are play standard Magic: The Gathering. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
That being said....I stopped played years ago. | ||
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Fir3fly
Australia251 Posts
sadly I grew up in a christain home so it was kinda frowned upon, so i couldnt get into it when i heard about it ages ago. is it still worth getting into? (also, if anyone's willing to sell their old decks, pm me, i might be interested :> ) | ||
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undyinglight
United States611 Posts
On January 07 2011 19:09 Fir3fly wrote: Im thinking about getting into Magic: The Gathering. sadly I grew up in a christain home so it was kinda frowned upon, so i couldnt get into it when i heard about it ages ago. is it still worth getting into? (also, if anyone's willing to sell their old decks, pm me, i might be interested :> ) Not all Christians oppose Magic: The Gathering, I know many who play it, I am one of them. | ||
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Goragoth
New Zealand1065 Posts
On January 07 2011 18:40 undyinglight wrote: Avatar of Woe is my all time favorite card. The power level goes up year by year, it is really starting to feel quite noticeable in the game that the rate of which cards are increasing in power (on average) from set to set, is really getting out of hand. A casual deck from 1995 could hold fair against a casual deck from 2000. A casual deck from 2005 would likely be demolished by a casual deck from 2010. I am getting out of the normal game for the most part, I want to get into Elder Dragon Highlander, but very very few people in my are play standard Magic: The Gathering. Well, sort of. Creatures have gotten a hell of a lot better and the power level of the average card is much higher (far less terrible cards) but there are also fewer truly broken cards out there. Every so often you still get a broken card slip in (Skullclamp anyone) but there are far less. Affinity was stupid strong but the last really broken decks in Standard (IMHO anyway) were during the Urza's block. I.e. decks with a good chance to win in turn 1-3. | ||
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Fir3fly
Australia251 Posts
On January 07 2011 19:53 undyinglight wrote: Not all Christians oppose Magic: The Gathering, I know many who play it, I am one of them. yeah i know. i never saw the bad in it and i was a bit of a "full-on" Christain when i was little. (as much as a kid could be) but yeah, im not saying all Christians are against Magic, or that its anti-Christian. thats just how my mother saw it (and everything else  ) | ||
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Usagi
Spain1647 Posts
I loved my Rock with Vampiric tutors, Pernicious Deeds and of course, Spirit Mongers x3I left the competitiveness of the game, stopped buing for some time, and when I came back to look over shoulders I saw people gaining life as a good strategy, I decided the game was not for me anymore. Even if I could still beat most people around here, and there are really good players in my area (a couple of them were sitting in the top 4 of Spanish DCI rating for a long time) I have been playing from time to time with borrowed decks, so I know a bit of the most recent metagames, with Fairies and such stuff, the game is not for me anymore, it feels just diferent. Besides, I found myself another amazing game years ago that called my university student (and not a 16 years old nerd anymore) mind. It's called Legend of the 5 rings, much more complex game to master, and there is beer in the tournament, nuff said! | ||
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futility
Japan134 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17225 Posts
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SpoR
United States1542 Posts
On January 07 2011 20:09 Fir3fly wrote: yeah i know. i never saw the bad in it and i was a bit of a "full-on" Christain when i was little. (as much as a kid could be) but yeah, im not saying all Christians are against Magic, or that its anti-Christian. thats just how my mother saw it (and everything else )lol this still goes on? Way back in 95 I remember adults saying it was some kind of devil worshipping game and my cousins and aunt were shocked to find magic cards in my backpack one day. | ||
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Ataraxia
United States73 Posts
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
On January 07 2011 22:13 Ataraxia wrote: I don't really care for the new sets. I started during Tempest and Urza's block but I have been playing off and on. Recently I have been playing type 2 in local tournies and stuff, mostly just for fun though, but unless your deck splashes blue and you have a playset of 80 dollar Jace the Mind Sculptors, you cannot seriously compete. I don't really like the addition of planeswalkers at all. +1 I never understood why or how people miss-interpreted Magic as anti-christian. If it looks sketchy it's anti-christian? I had problems @ school with this lol. The "cards are getting more powerfull every expansion" issue it's one of the reasons (besides time) im not returning into the game. It's turning into a WoW game. Would you place Jesus as a Black or White Card? | ||
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Gann1
United States1575 Posts
It seems like it would be really hard to get into now with the new super duper rare cards, or whatever they're called. The reason i preferred Magic over Yu-Gi-Oh was because of the much lower cost of deckbuilding. | ||
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Owompa
United States85 Posts
On January 07 2011 21:45 Manit0u wrote: Oh, where have gone the days of raging goblins and knights of dawn and dusk? ;( Gosh did this post just make me nostalgic. I remember my cadeverous bloom/drain life deck now. Such good times! | ||
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Selkie
United States530 Posts
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tirentu
Canada1257 Posts
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Redunzl
862 Posts
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Acid~
Thailand442 Posts
On January 07 2011 23:10 misaTO wrote: +1 I never understood why or how people miss-interpreted Magic as anti-christian. If it looks sketchy it's anti-christian? I had problems @ school with this lol. The "cards are getting more powerfull every expansion" issue it's one of the reasons (besides time) im not returning into the game. It's turning into a WoW game. Would you place Jesus as a Black or White Card? Modern color wheel would place Jesus in White or White/green, definitely not Black. (also, christians frown upon MtG for the same reason that they frown on Harry Potter or DnD, it's not that the product is anti-christian, it's just that christians believe that magic = evil, period. "You cast MAGIC spells ? Jesus Christ, that's blasphemous !" | ||
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chaokel
Australia535 Posts
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Orpheos
United States1663 Posts
On January 07 2011 23:18 Gann1 wrote: It seems like it would be really hard to get into now with the new super duper rare cards, or whatever they're called. The reason i preferred Magic over Yu-Gi-Oh was because of the much lower cost of deckbuilding. i dont like mythics, but they havent really increased the cost of deckbuilding by much. because of smaller sets and people breaking more packs, the majority of good rares are VERY cheap compared to what they were before mythics. good examples are things like dual lands, summoning trap and pyromancers ascension are around $1.5 dollars which wouldve never happened in pre-mythic days. so as long as you stay away from the mythics(which you wouldve done in the past if you were "budget"), budget deckbuilding is cheaper, whereas normal deckmaking has stayed about the same or increased only alittle bit. | ||
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GWBushJr
Canada35 Posts
Wasn't there a card with Banding/DoubleStrike? subversion seems ok if left alone On January 07 2011 23:51 Acid~ wrote: Modern color wheel would place Jesus in White or White/green, definitely not Black. (also, christians frown upon MtG for the same reason that they frown on Harry Potter or DnD, it's not that the product is anti-christian, it's just that christians believe that magic = evil, period. "You cast MAGIC spells ? Jesus Christ, that's blasphemous !" The guy who opened up the river with his staff was pretty evil...in the exodus... | ||
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myopia
United States2928 Posts
best decks; Turbo Land (INFINITE TURNS TROLOLOL) Wildfire (and to a lesser extent Tinker) Slivers (I had 3 Queens dawg, I was too cool) and a red/white deck of my own creation that abused skullclamp to drop massive firestorms, before the clamp was banned in everything. Shard Phoenix and Kjeldoran Outpost are my all time favorite cards | ||
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TryThis
Canada1522 Posts
that is, i gave up buying new cards. I still play people with my Tog deck, and it still does well. The new sets are just too gimmickry for my liking. | ||
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spiz
United States32 Posts
I played a lot of Type 1 tournaments and won some decent prizes. Placed at regionals for type 2 twice and then dropped out of the competitive scene due to college. It was a lot of fun when I played, but the new cards don't have near the appeal they used to. I almost always played control decks of some type. | ||
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
I understand that some of the changes they've made to cards has probably been for balance reasons (cancel as opposed to counterspell, lightning bolt to shock, and then they brought back lightning bolt), this general progression of newer cards getting more for the same mana seems like a strategy to increase profits from the casual sector of the player base - the people who don't play tournaments and just play with their friends. That's not really how it works. Polar Kraken was shit. It was always shit. Even when it was good, it was terrible. Oh, it looks impressive, with high attack/defense and all. But that doesn't make it any less crappy. The problem with early edition MtG was that it was all about the spells. Creatures were at best supplements and at worst unused. Later editions specifically went out of their way to rectify this. That meant making creature cards that didn't suck on toast. That also meant toning down the overpowered non-creature cards. What you have now is a game that you can play creatureless, but you also can play it with creatures. Which is not really what early MtG was. Not competitively. Overall, this is a net positive. If your game has an entire dimension of play that is rendered worthless, then that is bad game design and needs to be rethought. Wizards did this with MtG, and the game as a whole is better for it. And who cares about readability? Um, I'm guessing WotC does. Because new players do. New players have to read their cards. Which requires readability. A game that can't attract new players is doomed. WotC doesn't want MtG to be doomed, so they made some alterations that make it more attractive to new players. The guy who opened up the river with his staff was pretty evil...in the exodus... Killing all of the first-born is not unlike Wrath of God, yes? White is old-testament God. The game is turning into WoW. I've heard this statement several times, but nobody ever explains what this statement actually means. It's like a generic insult: something is "turning into WoW", and that's terrible. Somehow. First, WoW is the most popular MMO on the planet. So "turning into WoW" is not exactly a bad thing, from WotC's perspective. Second, what aspects of WoW is it turning into? I don't recall MtG suddenly getting raid instances, real-time combat, and so forth. So in what way is it becoming WoW? Third, what exactly do you expect from a CCG? Standard constructed has rotated in and out of blocks for over a decade now. The only way to make more money with a CCG is to get people to buy new cards. If the old cards are still viable, they won't buy new ones. So the old cards have to rotate out, and the new ones need to be interesting and powerful enough to be worth building a new deck for. Vintage and Legacy. Nothing can change them. Nothing can affect them, because after tens of thousands of cards, they have distilled down to a series of one-turn-kill decks. Either you get your OTK or you lose. Nothing can change that. And most of these OTKs were available during the early days of MtG. So how exactly do you expect a CCG to remain viable without constantly churning out new cards and therefore obsoleting old ones? WotC was doing this before Urza's block. WotC was doing this since 4th edition, if not earlier. Some people really need to have their nostalgia filter checked. | ||
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Sqalevon
Netherlands523 Posts
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Effect010
Germany89 Posts
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Orpheos
United States1663 Posts
On January 08 2011 03:10 Sqalevon wrote: IMHO, Invasion Block was the last good thing they released. idk odyssey block was pretty sweet too. and i think mirrodin had ALOT of really cool cards. the environment was just abit stifled by affinity. | ||
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Pigsquirrel
United States615 Posts
Like anything, it can be a cheap, fun hobby, but can also be as expensive as you want to commit to it. EDIT: The game is turning into WoW. I hate to agree, but I do. The M11 changes really did dumb down the game, and I am not a fan. My dad used to run a lot of tournaments, and has every single precon deck ever made. Rolling a random precon and playing is quite fun, and always good to play old cards. That and EDH. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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The Communist
United States33 Posts
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FindingPride
United States1001 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:14 misaTO wrote: In response, counterspell (?) As You mentioned Lin Siivi retarded combo, i must ask if you remember the rising waters thingy. That was soooooooo anoying.. You MUST HAVE SUFFERED TINKER/MANTICORE DECKS!!! I dunno why, but i have always favored a deck with a system over "combo decks" Did anyone play a Fires of yavimaya deck? Flametongue Kavus, Fires, Spiritmongers Cloaks? ta4tdfgsfadfbea THE BANE OF MY GOBLIN DECK ( AVATAR of Woe) | ||
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TalonKarrde
Canada104 Posts
Hell I love my Zur the enchanter EDH or Captain Sisay EDH they are so much fun to play! | ||
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dignity
Canada908 Posts
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LazyMacro
976 Posts
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FishFuzz99
United States152 Posts
Hell I love my Zur the enchanter EDH ... they are so much fun to play! Fun for who? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2011 21:09 futility wrote: I haven't played since 2004 or 2005 but back then I actually didn't think Magic was expensive to play at all. To play standard the biggest investment for me was getting my first good deck put together when I started playing competitively. I remember using Thieving Magpies in place of Shadowmage Infiltrators for a while and stuff like that. Once I got competitive though it pretty much paid for itself with tournament winnings. I've thought about getting into it again a few times but I saw the new planeswalker bullshit and lost any interest. See, that was back when a large portion of tournament staples were at the lower rarities. Decks like 'Tog were centered almost exclusively around commons and uncommons, and typical UG Madness builds only ran rares in the land base. Since then there's been a gradual upward shift in the average rarity of cards in a Standard constructed deck. On January 08 2011 00:29 GWBushJr wrote: Why'd they up counter spell by one mana? In theory there's a sound reason for it--Counterspell edges out a large portion of the low-CMC countermagic that you can print. It's hard to design 2 CMC countermagic when you always have to worry about "Counterspell is better", particularly if you're making sure that Counterspell never rotates out. They printed Cancel not because Counterspell is necessarily overpowered, but because pushing up the cost of the unconditional hard counter opens up design space for softer counters that are still strong and playable (balanced around Mana Leak). The problem is that they totally threw that logic out the window by printing Lightning Bolt--which exerts similar pressure on red burn spells. On January 08 2011 03:08 NicolBolas wrote: Vintage and Legacy. Nothing can change them. Nothing can affect them, because after tens of thousands of cards, they have distilled down to a series of one-turn-kill decks. Either you get your OTK or you lose. Nothing can change that. Ironically, the block to have THE WORST impact on Legacy and Vintage by far is Urza block, which is being praised in this thread--that's where a large percentage of the dominant combo decks began to arise (Time Vault + Voltaic Key, for example), and where Control in Vintage went from being a viable all-around strategy to something you have to design for each event's metagame, because without specific responses, you simply can't race with the combo decks. And I agree with the rest of your post. On January 08 2011 03:10 Sqalevon wrote: IMHO, Invasion Block was the last good thing they released. Looking at card design as objectively as possible, I would say that Ravnica is the most recent block that is good all-around, and that 3xRoE draft is a contender for the best draft format of all time (though I still wish Rochester draft was still around)--unfortunately 3xZen and Zen/Zen/Wwk were such awful draft formats that I can't really call the block as a whole very good. On January 08 2011 04:08 Judicator wrote: I like how people bring up Affinity as example of breaking the environment, but then ignore Necropotence and Moat. Part of it is that Necropotence and Moat were single cards that affected people who had full playsets and played the relevant formats, while Affinity was a mechanic that exerted undue pressure not only in competitive Constructed, but in Limited and casual play as well. On January 08 2011 05:28 LazyMacro wrote: I had a really nice mono black vampires deck going for a while, but then Nocturnus fucking rotated out. There goes almost $100 worth of four cards and now the rest of my deck is probably useless. I haven't played since just after M11 came out. Why would you keep Nocturnus through till rotation? If you can get then off your hands several weeks before they rotate and preorder the relevant replacements, you can save a lot of money. It's expensive for people who don't have the foresight to realize what they'll need post-rotation, and the barrier of entry is high, but people honestly overstate the cost of replacing cards post-rotation, seeing as a rudimentary knowledge of card value can get you cards way below their eventual price, and get cards like Nocturnus off your hands before their values drop. And Vampires was a very playable deck at the start of Zen/Scars Standard. Not sure about now. | ||
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terr13
United States298 Posts
On January 08 2011 03:08 NicolBolas wrote: Vintage and Legacy. Nothing can change them. Nothing can affect them, because after tens of thousands of cards, they have distilled down to a series of one-turn-kill decks. Either you get your OTK or you lose. Nothing can change that. And most of these OTKs were available during the early days of MtG. . This is untrue. Legacy is not, and never has been dominated by one-turn kills. Neither has Vintage. Only players that have played neither would even say that. As of right now, I think the most popular decks in Legacy are Survival Decks, which most certainly cannot even kill on Turn 1, and I don't even think it can kill on turn 2, even with a god draw. In Vintage, I think Stax and Tezzeret are still dominant, neither of which can really kill on turn 1, although with godly draws they can lock you out. Almost every single deck would sacrifice that potential turn 1 kill to have a consistent and resilient turn 3 kill. There has never been a deck with over a 70% chance of a one turn kill. Both of these formats are also relatively dynamic still, although not quite as much as other formats. Rather than having huge overhauls of every deck, it's usually a few cards that completely change the metagame. In recent years, Tarmogoyf completely killed Legacy, Vengevine brought Survival to the top, Faeries have become a viable deck, Jace is one of the strongest cards to hit Vintage and almost every creature that is being used was printed in the last 3 years. Aggro and Aggro/Control decks all run the new creatures, whereas many of the new win conditions are also the fatties printed recently, rather than the ones from before. | ||
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BROverlord
United States80 Posts
On January 07 2011 23:18 Gann1 wrote: I haven't played Magic in a really long time. I had a hell of a lot of fun playing Invasion/Odyssey at my local card shop on friday nights, quit after Invasion phased out. I tried coming back for Onslaught/Mirrodin, but quit after a couple weeks because it wasn't nearly as fun as Invasion/Odyssey was. It seems like it would be really hard to get into now with the new super duper rare cards, or whatever they're called. The reason i preferred Magic over Yu-Gi-Oh was because of the much lower cost of deckbuilding. moar like Money: the wasting amirite? That was pretty much the reason i stopped playing; It felt more about who spent more money on their deck than strategy. Now i hear about these planeswalker cards that pretty much anyone who wants to be competitive has to have. look at this motherfucker: that is just nonsense. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Alara block had a relatively small number of viable cards for blue-based control decks. No doubt this was intentional--Faeries and Cryptic Command basically had a stranglehold on the metagame through that time, and printing staples for blue-based control during Alara could have killed the metagame. I'm sure WotC was very mindful of printing things that were too useful blue-based control. The problem was that lack of blue control cards extended through M10 and Zendikar (admittedly, I didn't realize how good Spreading Seas was going to become). From the card lists, I expressed worries that if WotC wanted to leverage blue-based control, there wasn't enough room in Zendikar block for them to do it by the end of the block, unless they printed something super-powerful, at least as good as Cryptic Command, and probably better. Lo and behold, Worldwake comes out and we get New Jace. | ||
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
On January 08 2011 03:08 NicolBolas wrote: That's not really how it works. Polar Kraken was shit. It was always shit. Even when it was good, it was terrible. Oh, it looks impressive, with high attack/defense and all. But that doesn't make it any less crappy. The problem with early edition MtG was that it was all about the spells. Creatures were at best supplements and at worst unused. Later editions specifically went out of their way to rectify this. That meant making creature cards that didn't suck on toast. That also meant toning down the overpowered non-creature cards. What you have now is a game that you can play creatureless, but you also can play it with creatures. Which is not really what early MtG was. Not competitively. Overall, this is a net positive. If your game has an entire dimension of play that is rendered worthless, then that is bad game design and needs to be rethought. Wizards did this with MtG, and the game as a whole is better for it. Um, I'm guessing WotC does. Because new players do. New players have to read their cards. Which requires readability. A game that can't attract new players is doomed. WotC doesn't want MtG to be doomed, so they made some alterations that make it more attractive to new players. Killing all of the first-born is not unlike Wrath of God, yes? White is old-testament God. I've heard this statement several times, but nobody ever explains what this statement actually means. It's like a generic insult: something is "turning into WoW", and that's terrible. Somehow. First, WoW is the most popular MMO on the planet. So "turning into WoW" is not exactly a bad thing, from WotC's perspective. Second, what aspects of WoW is it turning into? I don't recall MtG suddenly getting raid instances, real-time combat, and so forth. So in what way is it becoming WoW? Third, what exactly do you expect from a CCG? Standard constructed has rotated in and out of blocks for over a decade now. The only way to make more money with a CCG is to get people to buy new cards. If the old cards are still viable, they won't buy new ones. So the old cards have to rotate out, and the new ones need to be interesting and powerful enough to be worth building a new deck for. Vintage and Legacy. Nothing can change them. Nothing can affect them, because after tens of thousands of cards, they have distilled down to a series of one-turn-kill decks. Either you get your OTK or you lose. Nothing can change that. And most of these OTKs were available during the early days of MtG. So how exactly do you expect a CCG to remain viable without constantly churning out new cards and therefore obsoleting old ones? WotC was doing this before Urza's block. WotC was doing this since 4th edition, if not earlier. Some people really need to have their nostalgia filter checked. Turning sthg into wow means dumbing it down. No wonder why WoW is the most popular mmo. Its dumb. If planeswalkers were released 10 years ago, people would have screamed imba. Jace's are broken. The whole concept is flawed and unoriginal. I don't mind changing my deck every 2 years, but the thing i hate is that instead of promoting interesting, original or synergetic cards, they just promote the ugly imba for selling. Option one : OMG that simple change opens new posibilities. EG : Removing Vampiric Tutor Option two : OMG let's make a card so powerfull people will need at least 4. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 08 2011 06:25 misaTO wrote: Turning sthg into wow means dumbing it down. No wonder why WoW is the most popular mmo. Its dumb. If planeswalkers were released 10 years ago, people would have screamed imba. Jace's are broken. The whole concept is flawed. New Jace is an anomaly--it's super-broken, but honestly its not out of the ordinary for super-broken cards to arise--Survival of the Fittest, Fact or Fiction, Psychatog, Arcbound Ravager, Tarmogoyf, etc. were all cards that had vast implications across many formats very quickly. WotC hasn't gotten any better or worse with regard to these types of cards. They're not "promoting" them--the existence of Jace has nothing to do with their design paradigm; it's just a mistake that slips by development. And again, you can't really complain about New Jace, and praise the card design in Urza block when Memory Jar is the only emergency ban ever to occur in the history of Magic. | ||
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
.I have no problem with banning, but they are printing stronger cards, instead of just new original ones. I just loved him. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 08 2011 06:35 misaTO wrote: I never found Psychatog's decks powerfull .That you didn't find them powerful doesn't change the fact that they totally swept Standard events that season, and were hugely relevant in Extended and Legacy as well. On January 08 2011 06:35 misaTO wrote: I have no problem with banning, but they are printing stronger cards, instead of just new original ones. People keep saying this, but quite honestly, the only real examples they ever come up with are either creatures (which through most of Magic history have been way below the power curve--and therefore creature power creep is not exactly bad), or anomalous cards like New Jace. Average card power has gone up, but as Patrick Chapin described it, there are lots of 7s and 8s now, instead of a bunch of 1s and 2s, and a few 10s. | ||
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
What I find problematic is that the power curve went off the charts due to the multiplying effect of new cards. Im now thinking of a deck with Jaces + Paralax Tides/ Waves Lol. Instead of balancing they just doubled the strength On a separate note, the problem with Affinity consisted on little colour affinity and a shit-tonne of artifact affinity. Magic has always had a "SCALING" problem. Personally I have always prefered little critters over big monsters. They are harder to counter. That may be one of the reasons why I play Zerg lol. | ||
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Usagi
Spain1647 Posts
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
On January 08 2011 06:54 Usagi wrote: Oh sure, I remember it is not so expensive when you have 13-14 year old kids you can "steal" the good cards from. I feel saened anytime I see that happen, but it's the every day thing, exprienced players move like a flock as a kid enters a store. I declare myself guilty as charged good sir. | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 08 2011 07:08 xbankx wrote: Spells got weaker while creatures got stronger. This was a move to try to get people away from blue. It worked for a while until they reprinted "Jace, if I untap with it I win". As I said, Jace probably happened because they deliberately didn't print good blue cards through Alara->Zen because of Faeries, and then went "oh shit, blue is unplayable" after Lorwyn rotated, and when designing Worldwake. Consequently, they printed one of the most absurd blue cards ever in an attempt to even things out. | ||
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R4ptur3d
Canada206 Posts
On January 08 2011 06:16 BROverlord wrote: moar like Money: the wasting amirite? That was pretty much the reason i stopped playing; It felt more about who spent more money on their deck than strategy. Now i hear about these planeswalker cards that pretty much anyone who wants to be competitive has to have. look at this motherfucker: that is just nonsense. A boros aggro and valakut ramp can easily race a U/B control deck. Boros aggro probably costs about 200$ to make valakut ramp probably a bit close to 400$ but yeah the U/B control deck that has 4 jaces in them have fun paying 700$ for that fucking deck. They have all done pretty well If i had to say so i think Valakut ramp has been doing really well lately, We will see how things level out with Besiege. | ||
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bobbob
United States368 Posts
On January 08 2011 03:08 NicolBolas wrote: The problem with early edition MtG was that it was all about the spells. Creatures were at best supplements and at worst unused. Later editions specifically went out of their way to rectify this. That meant making creature cards that didn't suck on toast. That also meant toning down the overpowered non-creature cards. Having looked at beta sealed online, this is definately true, as you run Scathe Zombies and Demonic Tutor (searching for a Fireball or something like that), On January 08 2011 03:08 NicolBolas wrote: Vintage and Legacy. Nothing can change them. Nothing can affect them, because after tens of thousands of cards, they have distilled down to a series of one-turn-kill decks. Either you get your OTK or you lose. Nothing can change that. And most of these OTKs were available during the early days of MtG. Really, the OTKs stick to Vintage. Of legacy, the OTKs are Goblin Charbelcher, and both versions of Storm (Ad Nauseum, and The Epic Storm). OTKs are kept in check with Force of Will (every single blue deck runs it, AFAIK) Bant Counterbalance uses Shards creatures heavily. Spell Pierce is in many control decks, and even non control decks. Mindbreak trap is used against storm sometimes. Merfolk is one of the stronger decks currently, and that's because of the fact that it has 4 merfolk lords (all merfolk gain +1/+1). It hardly kills first turn, but it is capable of killing within a small enough space of time. For that matter, both Goblins and Elves are acceptable Legacy decks, and even Burn works. Most of the earlier OTKs are banned from legacy (Flash is banned, Yawg's Will, etc.) Legacy works perfectly fine, since aggro (Zoo heavily) Combo (Storm) and control (Countertop, Jacestill, etc) are all represented and work. No comment on vintage, I'm not a fan of that format. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
The analogy to WoW is hilariously bad except on the fact that people are ungrateful SOBs. Legacy is more about the sideboard more than anything, the decks don't really change outside of a few graft jobs then and there. | ||
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Moody
United States750 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:29 TheYango wrote: From what I've seen, WotC goes in cycles--they start with a block that's too strong, follow up with one that's too weak, then end up with a decent block. Urza (too strong) Masques (too weak) Invasion (good) Mirrodin (too strong) Kamigawa (too weak) Ravnica (good) Kamigawa had: Umezawa's Jitte Yosei Kokusho Isamaru, Hound of Konda Meloku Choice of Damnations Pithing Needle I'm fairly certain Kamigawa was a strong block. I'd take my Wr Aggro deck from Kamigawa/Ravnica and put it against any deck in the current format (obv i'd need some SB changes) | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 08 2011 07:55 Moody wrote: I'm fairly certain Kamigawa was a strong block. I'd take my Wr Aggro deck from Kamigawa/Ravnica and put it against any deck in the current format (obv i'd need some SB changes) Kamigawa had some strong staples--that doesn't make it a strong block. I mean, Mercadian Masques had some strong staples (Rishadan Port, Brainstorm, Gush, Counterspell, Blastoderm, etc.). But the general card power was low, and the archetypes espoused by the set theme were fairly weak (Your WR aggro deck is still probably a Boros deck at it's core--as themes like Spirit/Arcane from Kamigawa were weak mechanics). | ||
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Multis
Finland21 Posts
If you are fed up with the prices, u can always go limited. By selling opened cards and winning store credit drafting is actually quite cheap even in the long run. | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
On January 08 2011 07:55 Moody wrote: Kamigawa had: Umezawa's Jitte Yosei Kokusho Isamaru, Hound of Konda Meloku Choice of Damnations Pithing Needle I'm fairly certain Kamigawa was a strong block. I'd take my Wr Aggro deck from Kamigawa/Ravnica and put it against any deck in the current format (obv i'd need some SB changes) Gifts Ungiven. BDW was made by kamigawa, and WW got other powerful cards. Gifts is one of the most powerful cards in Vintage and Legacy now. Sensei's divining top. Kamigawa added more cards to the Vintage and Legacy formats than mirrodin or ravnica, and since those formats use the most op shit ever, it's simple to say Kamigawa had the vastly more powerful cards. Mirrodin had other good stuff like chalice of the void, trinisphere, but the normal affinity cards didn't add much. He also skipped onslaught, which added fetchlands (and now with scars of mirrodin offcolor fetches). | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 08 2011 09:15 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Gifts Ungiven. BDW was made by kamigawa, and WW got other powerful cards. Gifts is one of the most powerful cards in Vintage and Legacy now. Sensei's divining top. Kamigawa added more cards to the Vintage and Legacy formats than mirrodin or ravnica, and since those formats use the most op shit ever, it's simple to say Kamigawa had the vastly more powerful cards. Mirrodin had other good stuff like chalice of the void, trinisphere, but the normal affinity cards didn't add much. I am well aware of the broken shit available in Kamigawa. The general card power and archetypes, however, are not determined by what broken shit there is, particularly in Limited, where you're lucky to pull 1, maybe 2 of any of those cards. As far as I'm aware, its generally accepted that on the whole, Kamigawa was a weak set that had a few exceptionally powerful cards. On January 08 2011 09:15 SnK-Arcbound wrote: He also skipped onslaught, which added fetchlands (and now with scars of mirrodin offcolor fetches). I intentionally skipped Oddysey/Onslaught because they're not exceptionally powerful, weak, or following such a set. My point was that WotC generally follows up exceptionally powerful sets with exceptionally weak ones, and exceptionally weak sets with reasonably well-balanced ones. Skipping those sets neither confirms nor denies that idea, and therefore aren't really relevant. | ||
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Augury
United States758 Posts
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Ataraxia
United States73 Posts
A boros aggro and valakut ramp can easily race a U/B control deck. Boros aggro probably costs about 200$ to make valakut ramp probably a bit close to 400$ but yeah the U/B control deck that has 4 jaces in them have fun paying 700$ for that fucking deck. They have all done pretty well If i had to say so i think Valakut ramp has been doing really well lately, We will see how things level out with Besiege. Easiest way for U/B or U/W to stop Valakut is spreading seas. But I agree with your other remarks. I will say my favorite decks to play out of all the sets I've played through were Opalesence+Replenish and Warpworld+Landfall. | ||
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BROverlord
United States80 Posts
this + anything that uses the new proliferate mechanic seems rather difficult to deal with. | ||
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PencilZerg
Denmark76 Posts
On January 08 2011 17:36 BROverlord wrote: So this thread made me look at some of the new cards, and i saw this: this + anything that uses the new proliferate mechanic seems rather difficult to deal with. Not really, it has to be returned to hand as it resolves - removing all counters. I don't believe a combo is yet to be made with this card. It doesn't really make sense. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27132 Posts
By far my favorite deck was messing with stasis though, simply locking down the entire board. | ||
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BROverlord
United States80 Posts
On January 08 2011 18:05 PencilZerg wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2011 17:36 BROverlord wrote: So this thread made me look at some of the new cards, and i saw this: this + anything that uses the new proliferate mechanic seems rather difficult to deal with. Not really, it has to be returned to hand as it resolves - removing all counters. I don't believe a combo is yet to be made with this card. It doesn't really make sense. oh wow i totally didn't see that at the end. Edit: though there are still cards that work well with it, just less impressively than infinite turns. With rings of brighthearth, you can copy magosi's ability so you get 2 extra turns instead of 1. | ||
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gongryong
Korea (South)1430 Posts
i havent caught up with MTG since 2003ish, especially after there were fancy card abilities (phasing iirc). truth be told, i dont even know what planeswalker is, hahaha. id like to think that i played in the straight-up era, red attacked, blue countered, white cast spells, green grew all sorts of flora and fauna, and black viled. im not sure what expansion i last played in (jesus i cant remember much actually, its like a half forgotten dream), but i think i played between apocalypse and scourge. i had 2 decks (cost me a limb then), satan red and ice blue. my red deck had 10million all damage instants: Lightning Bolt, Incinerate (new word for me at the time :D) and 10million other rushing all damage creatures: Ball lightning, etc. my blue deck is super hard counters: counterspell, flash counter, arcane denial, etc. and one ping -1 creature i tap before my turn. i dont remember the creatures i had, if i had any. my friends and opponents all hated my blue deck, it was a loooooong drawn out game (-1 until 20 turns LOL) btw, is it still 20 today? i won 17 city and school-based tournaments with those decks (11 red, 6 blue) and quite a few minor ones. im sorry for the scant details re my deck, its been forever really. imma dig up my box RIGHT NOW!!! | ||
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DrSeRRoD
United States490 Posts
On January 07 2011 06:35 Mortality wrote: MTG... I could seriously nerd rage about how my deck that used to be worth close to 500 dollars is probably worth pennies by now. Cards that used to be a good 10 bucks a decade ago are trash now. Sad to see as I still have a box of series 2 (or whatever came after the first set beyond alpha) and was hoping they would be worth something... someday. | ||
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Wesso
Netherlands1245 Posts
On January 09 2011 00:21 DrSeRRoD wrote: Sad to see as I still have a box of series 2 (or whatever came after the first set beyond alpha) and was hoping they would be worth something... someday. If you still have a box of beta/unlimited (the 2 sets that came after alpha) it's worth LOTS, it can be an issue to find a buyer though EDIT: spelling | ||
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Improbable
United States54 Posts
Also, I love me some oldschool necropotence decks, but I love how magic is constantly evolving and each new set brings its own identity to the table. It can be a pain to keep up with if you aren't fanatically involved, (I took a 4 month break at one point and found myself unable to make a competitive standard deck upon my return) but wizards hasn't completely screwed up a format since Mirrodin. I'm loving the new extended by the way, anyone else enjoying it? | ||
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GReeNMaN
United States21 Posts
Anyways, I went up in my attic and got my card box out. I've got a good amount of them here...but they're all old ones. You guys are saying the game has evolved to the point where such cards can no longer be competitively used? NOT EVEN MY GOLD SLIVER QUEEN?! I've come to terms with the fact that they've become pretty much worthless along with my shiny pokemon cards, but it's pretty unfortunate that they can't even be used in a competitive environment. Not surprising though, they gotta keep people buying cards somehow I guess -_- | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 09 2011 06:06 GReeNMaN wrote: Anyways, I went up in my attic and got my card box out. I've got a good amount of them here...but they're all old ones. You guys are saying the game has evolved to the point where such cards can no longer be competitively used? NOT EVEN MY GOLD SLIVER QUEEN?! I've come to terms with the fact that they've become pretty much worthless along with my shiny pokemon cards, but it's pretty unfortunate that they can't even be used in a competitive environment. Not surprising though, they gotta keep people buying cards somehow I guess -_- To be fair, I don't thing Sliver Queen was that good even when it was Standard-legal. Playable in Counter-Slivers, but not really a staple. And with a few exceptions, most of your collection is probably still legal in Vintage/Legacy. Of course, there's big difference between "legal" and "playable" | ||
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GReeNMaN
United States21 Posts
On January 09 2011 06:32 TheYango wrote: To be fair, I don't thing Sliver Queen was that good even when it was Standard-legal. Playable in Counter-Slivers, but not really a staple. And with a few exceptions, most of your collection is probably still legal in Vintage/Legacy. Of course, there's big difference between "legal" and "playable" Sliver Queen was just always my favorite card because I knew it was kind of a rare gold card. In fact, funny story behind how I got it. I was in an AOL chatroom for Magic the Gathering (remember this was like 10-12 years ago) and I asked if anyone had a Sliver Queen for trade. Some guy IMed me and said he would just send it to me for free. I was weary, but I wanted it. So even though my parents had told me not to give out any personal information, I gave the guy my address. Long story short, he tracked me down, abducted me, and my parents had to pay a huge ransom to get me back. When they did get me back, I was naked with the Sliver Queen pinned to my body. + Show Spoiler + Actually, after a few weeks of waiting I received it to my pleasant surprise. It was from that point on that I realized the internet was a great thing and that I could trust anybody on it. | ||
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Spinfusor
Australia410 Posts
On January 09 2011 01:29 Improbable wrote:Also, I love me some oldschool necropotence decks Yeah, non-combo Necro decks are so much fun to play. Too bad Necro is too broken. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:42 sob3k wrote: Obviously magic has gone downhill. Its a product. If they release new sets that are of the same power as the old ones then people have no incentive to buy them. Therefore every new release becomes slightly more OP in order to force people to go out and get it in order to not get raped. Actually no, they've never even come close to releasing a whole set with cards as good as the power 9. There have been mistakes (skullclamp lol) but overall the power of cards has been lower since Urza's Saga. There are some absurd cards that work really well in specific combos, but that's why hate is always good in a competitive deck. I've been told T1 and T1.5 are the most popular formats now. This is way different then when I used to play. It's probably forcing Wizards to balance across a whole bunch of things they haven't previously considered. Mechanics like madness are really good in the set they were printed for. Things like landfall are generically good and can easily fit into any format. + Show Spoiler + Cards like new Jace basically come into play and say "answer me" and a lot of cards can do just that. He only starts with 3 counters, he's not that hard to kill. Remember the correct order to draft is bombs > hate > fixing > creatures and any good deck should have enough of the first two to handle it, especially in constructed. Also, don't hate on Jace because he's blue, if you play old magic, you probably hate blue. But blue was easily the shittiest color for a while after they got rid of counterspell in T2. EDIT: BTW, dude who owns a box of unopened beta series cards, EBAY THAT SHIT! It's worth a ton. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
On January 09 2011 00:21 DrSeRRoD wrote: Sad to see as I still have a box of series 2 (or whatever came after the first set beyond alpha) and was hoping they would be worth something... someday. you WHAT You got a sealed box of beta cards You realise thats worth thousands and thousands... each booster is like 400 dollars or smth crazy | ||
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backtoback
Canada1276 Posts
damn... my last set i played was kamigawa or w/e its called a long time ago too! Odyssey, Tourment, judgement, legion, onslaught, and scourge were the shit back then... Magic was more fun than YuGiOH even though i had killer decks in both. Less money sinker as well and it distinguished the older kids to the young Here was my favorite card ^_^ edit: IT was laquatus champion in odyssey.... ![[image loading]](http://www.coolstuffinc.com/images/Products/mtg%20art/Torment/Laquatus%27s%20Champion.jpg) | ||
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GogoKodo
Canada1785 Posts
Kansas City Open Top 8 (or Top4, not sure), not sure exactly when it starts. Currently it's just discussion from hosts. http://www.ustream.tv/channel/scglive#utm_campaign=unknown&utm_source=5676856&utm_medium=social And the event coverage page from star city games. http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/20848_Live_Coverage_of_StarCityGamescom_Open_Series_Kansas_City.html | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
Asking for a friend obv. :D | ||
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turamn
United States1374 Posts
EDIT: Though, if youre looking to buy / sell, you should probably post them on e-bay. SCG will give you crap for your cards and you can probably get them cheaper on e-bay, but a lot of the local shops here will use SCG for their benchmark pricing. | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
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hippocritical
Australia465 Posts
and the last one I bought (for whimsy sake) was a Betrayers booster which I got an Ink-Eyes, and I spent the rest of the day smiling.I haven't really touched MTG since 2008(my last foray was when Guild Pact was still new). I'm wondering if I should the get new Mirrodin block ones or Innistrad, but it's mostly not for competitive play but rather just me collecting and what not or should I get an older set of boxes like Kamigawa/RavCity of Guilds etc. It is significantly cheaper just buying the newer boosters, but I think the universe I lost on me. From a collectors I guess I'm lost on what to purchase since I haven't really checked out most the newer content. Anywho if anyone who has had experience with the Scars of Mirrordin expansion could shoot me a pm about if the block is worth getting that would be fantastic thanks! | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
Anyone got experience with online selling? (any besides www.cardkingdom.com?) | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
I remember playing shifting skies and reap combo for infinite regrowths on your free turn cards | ||
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JFKWT
Singapore1442 Posts
On October 07 2011 02:56 Vaporized wrote: i cleaned out the garage last weekend and found 2 binders and an old shoe box full of 2nd edition magic cards up though mirage i think. not sure what to do with them. Holy shit if you gift that as my birthday present... =) Started around tempest, lost a bunch of cards when I entrusted my senior to keep them, then the rest go confiscated by a teacher who claimed it to be "satanic" even though I was playing it outside school. Stopped playing at Scourge, after I went to a prerelease for it. Did quite well for it too ^^ my 1st and only. | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
On October 05 2011 23:39 hippocritical wrote: Not sure if here is the right place to ask, but I'm considering buying 1 or 2 36 pack boxes of boosters. There's nothing more addictive than tearing into a new booster and the last one I bought (for whimsy sake) was a Betrayers booster which I got an Ink-Eyes, and I spent the rest of the day smiling.I haven't really touched MTG since 2008(my last foray was when Guild Pact was still new). I'm wondering if I should the get new Mirrodin block ones or Innistrad, but it's mostly not for competitive play but rather just me collecting and what not or should I get an older set of boxes like Kamigawa/RavCity of Guilds etc. It is significantly cheaper just buying the newer boosters, but I think the universe I lost on me. From a collectors I guess I'm lost on what to purchase since I haven't really checked out most the newer content. Anywho if anyone who has had experience with the Scars of Mirrordin expansion could shoot me a pm about if the block is worth getting that would be fantastic thanks! Actually, some of the older sets are cheaper, but of course they are worthless. What are you looking for, a long-term investment or just pretty pictures? If investment, I would recommend cracking Innistrad because the packs are reasonably cheap and they have good short-term and possibly long-term value. Not many Scars cards will survive past next year. On October 06 2011 01:36 Daniel C wrote: Anyone got any advice on selling cards? Haven't played since around 2000 and realized that my Gaea's Cradle is worth like $50 now Anyone got experience with online selling? (any besides www.cardkingdom.com?) Yes, I sell a lot, I would recommend eBay if you want the easiest way to get good money, but also MOTL (http://magictraders.com) you can set up a sell list or a point list where you trade cards for various amounts of points. It's a little more effort, but you can sell above eBay prices. On October 07 2011 02:56 Vaporized wrote: i cleaned out the garage last weekend and found 2 binders and an old shoe box full of 2nd edition magic cards up though mirage i think. not sure what to do with them. I'd suggest finding a friend who knows what cards are worth, and getting him to tell you which are valuable and which aren't. Then take the valuable ones to eBay and see what you can get. If you just take them to a store, they will see you don't understand the cards' value and rip you off. | ||
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
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