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I definitely would have preferred the galaxy to be able to take the Reapers out themselves, with their own sweat and blood. The problem is BioWare couldn't give us that because they wrote themselves into a corner by building the Reapers up so much as nigh-invincible gods.
It sucks because I feel like it really waters down the mystique of the Reapers, as well as downplays the role the Protheans played. The Reapers' method of harvesting a galaxy was mysterious and dark in the first game; they would hide in dark space, then blind side the galaxy in one giant surprise attack, cutting the head off their government and isolating the systems from one another by turning off the Mass Relays. Then came the slow, systematic destruction of the civilizations. That's what really gave the Reapers their "god like" power, in my eyes anyway; the fact that they used surprise attacks and indoctrination to destroy their enemies, coupled with the fact that they take away the technology the galaxy became dependent on.
The Protheans gift to us wasn't the Crucible. They saved us by something relatively simple. They altered the Keepers so that they wouldn't respond to the Reapers commands. That's it. By doing so, the Reapers were unable to warp into the Citadel, kill the galaxy's leaders, obtain census information, and turn off the Mass Relays. All by altering a signal. Eloquent, if you ask me.
But then ME3 rolls around and its like none of that stuff mattered. The Reapers weren't trapped in dark space- they traveled back to the galaxy in the span of just around 3 years. The Reapers obviously forgot about the importance of the Citadel also, considering how they ignored it the ENTIRE GAME until the very end. And once they have it, they don't even turn off the Mass Relays!
The Protheans couldn't save themselves, but they could save the next cycle. Or at least buy it time. And thats what they did, with believable, tangible science. But for ME3 that wasn't enough, and now BioWare had to invent the Super Reaper Galaxy Gun, since thats more tangible and would make us appreciate the Protheans more right? No... Just a lazy plot choice.
I agree though that the strength of the Reapers is all over the place around the game. Destroyers were invented simply to give us Reapers to kill while still saying "LOL but THESE guys are leik, impossible to kill!" about the "sovereign" class ones. But just by reading through the codex you see examples of the races figuring out how to beat them. Like the turians developing maneuvers to outflank the Reapers and destroy several of them with dreadnought fire before they can even react.
Shepard said it himself. They aren't invincible. They can be beaten. BioWare didn't think so apparently, and thought the dreaded "deus ex machina" was their only way out.
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I'm less bothered by the existence of the Crucible than it's actual function. It was a little lame but they had been building the reapers up into an unbeatable force and I kind of like the idea of all previous civilizations that had been wiped out lending a hand in taking the Reapers down. And ok that's a little weak too, I mean every civilization just happens to find the Crucible plans right when the Reapers attack and add onto it a little bit? But I can deal with that.
What gets me is who the hell designed this thing? Was everyone just working on and innovating on a giant space device when they have no idea what it actually does. How do you improve on something when you don't actually know what it is? Is it just luck that the Citadel and its three firing modes work with what they ended up making? Why does the Citadel have these firing modes if it is made by the Reaper making people/things? I could go on asking unanswered questions about just the Crucible forever.
Normally in Mass Effect if you have a question about something like this you can just open the codex up and get your answer supplied with something that doesn't break the established rules of the game's universe.
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+ Show Spoiler +I would have personally liked it if it was pretty much a doomed prospect. The ingame situation with the reapers appearing all over the tactical starmap did that but the tone of the game wasn't as dark. I think the proper tone would be one one last hurrah in defiance of the end (basically its a metaphor for the series ending and no more ME games with Shepard or the characters) and then somehow if you tried stupidly hard you'd find some sort of magical thing at the very end that somehow could destroy the reapers. The whole crucible thing should have been found out at Thessia from the VI. Like the Protheans built it but couldn't fire it so they buried the parts all over and you'd have to fetch quest them versus Cerberus.
And how well it performs is reflected by how many resources you'd gathered from all the species.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 29 2012 12:28 CobaltBlu wrote:
I'm less bothered by the existence of the Crucible than it's actual function. It was a little lame but they had been building the reapers up into an unbeatable force and I kind of like the idea of all previous civilizations that had been wiped out lending a hand in taking the Reapers down. And ok that's a little weak too, I mean every civilization just happens to find the Crucible plans right when the Reapers attack and add onto it a little bit? But I can deal with that.
What gets me is who the hell designed this thing? Was everyone just working on and innovating on a giant space device when they have no idea what it actually does. How do you improve on something when you don't actually know what it is? Is it just luck that the Citadel and its three firing modes work with what they ended up making? Why does the Citadel have these firing modes if it is made by the Reaper making people/things? I could go on asking unanswered questions about just the Crucible forever.
Normally in Mass Effect if you have a question about something like this you can just open the codex up and get your answer supplied with something that doesn't break the established rules of the game's universe.
I'm sincerely hoping that it was indoctrination and a dream forced upon shepard, and what really happened was that the crucible connected with the citadel and shut off all the reaper's shields, or that it didn't make it but your EMS is high enough to win the fight anyway, because hell, reapers are tough but not gods.
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Apparently they are Gods, because you need to build a Deus Ex Machina to defeat them...
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On March 29 2012 18:46 Latham wrote:
Apparently they are Gods, because you need to build a Deus Ex Machina to defeat them...
Deus Ex Machina- God out of the Work-a term used in Roman plays in which a god would descend from the ceiling of the theater and proclaim that everything was all right years later, and that the protagonist and his wife and family were all living happily ever after.
The term has nothing to do with killing gods. But yeah, the idea of the Crucible did seem a bit rushed.
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Bioware really missed a trick with the ending. They could have had an ending where some small amount of soldiers beam up into the Citadel and have to fight their way against lots of occupying Reaper forces, up to a certain location, where Shepherd can finally activate the Crucible after a Boss battle with the Indoctrinated Illusive Man and a Harbinger Avatar. This deactivates/kills the Reapers and the Mass Relays survive. The races survive, Earth, Palaven, Thessia etc are shown being rebuilt. Humans, Quorians, Geth and Krogan are shown being given a lot more respect. All the companions are shown enjoying rewards for all their efforts during the War. Shepherd survives and there is some closure to the entire series as well as a sense of accomplishment.
I think everyone really wanted the Reapers to get their asses kicked at the end, but that did not really happen, unless you choose to kill all synthetics, which means killing EDI as well as giving a giant f@ck you to Legion by killing all the Geth! EDI tells Shepherd he makes her feel alive and she is instrumental in killing that Reaper guarding the beam, and then ten minutes later Shepherd kills her! Well done, Bioware!
I hope they change the ending. It could have been epic. But was simply stupid.
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On March 29 2012 22:22 revel8 wrote:
Bioware really missed a trick with the ending. They could have had an ending where some small amount of soldiers beam up into the Citadel and have to fight their way against lots of occupying Reaper forces, up to a certain location, where Shepherd can finally activate the Crucible after a Boss battle with the Indoctrinated Illusive Man and a Harbinger Avatar. This deactivates/kills the Reapers and the Mass Relays survive. The races survive, Earth, Palaven, Thessia etc are shown being rebuilt. Humans, Quorians, Geth and Krogan are shown being given a lot more respect. All the companions are shown enjoying rewards for all their efforts during the War. Shepherd survives and there is some closure to the entire series as well as a sense of accomplishment.
I think everyone really wanted the Reapers to get their asses kicked at the end, but that did not really happen, unless you choose to kill all synthetics, which means killing EDI as well as giving a giant f@ck you to Legion by killing all the Geth! EDI tells Shepherd he makes her feel alive and she is instrumental in killing that Reaper guarding the beam, and then ten minutes later Shepherd kills her! Well done, Bioware!
I hope they change the ending. It could have been epic. But was simply stupid.
With a proper ending to the lines of what you have posted nobody would have been upset if Shepard dies. Sad yes, but it would have been a good ending. The way they handled it was just sooo random...
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On March 29 2012 22:28 AntiGrav1ty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 22:22 revel8 wrote:
Bioware really missed a trick with the ending. They could have had an ending where some small amount of soldiers beam up into the Citadel and have to fight their way against lots of occupying Reaper forces, up to a certain location, where Shepherd can finally activate the Crucible after a Boss battle with the Indoctrinated Illusive Man and a Harbinger Avatar. This deactivates/kills the Reapers and the Mass Relays survive. The races survive, Earth, Palaven, Thessia etc are shown being rebuilt. Humans, Quorians, Geth and Krogan are shown being given a lot more respect. All the companions are shown enjoying rewards for all their efforts during the War. Shepherd survives and there is some closure to the entire series as well as a sense of accomplishment.
I think everyone really wanted the Reapers to get their asses kicked at the end, but that did not really happen, unless you choose to kill all synthetics, which means killing EDI as well as giving a giant f@ck you to Legion by killing all the Geth! EDI tells Shepherd he makes her feel alive and she is instrumental in killing that Reaper guarding the beam, and then ten minutes later Shepherd kills her! Well done, Bioware!
I hope they change the ending. It could have been epic. But was simply stupid. With a proper ending to the lines of what you have posted nobody would have been upset if Shepard dies. Sad yes, but it would have been a good ending. The way they handled it was just sooo random...
There is no problem with Shepherd sacrificing himself in order to defeat the Reapers, he was a hero after all. But with the relays all destroyed all those who helped in the fight basically got screwed and ended up stranded away from home. The Salarians who essentially did f@ck all, ended up being the big winners cos everyone else has their main leadership and military force stranded and has devastated homeworlds. Not even mentioning the nonsense about the Normandy fleeing...
They spend the entire three games trying to get the players to care about these various character's and then you don't know what happens to them! Maybe three survive a crash, but then what? What about the others? Are they even alive? How can you get closure when you don't know whether the main character's (apart from Shepherd) lived or not? An extra minute or so could have shown the fate of the other character's. Instead they have this random person talking to a kid about stories! WTF? The ending (all of them) just seem a giant slap in the face. It really spoiled a great gaming experience.
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Germany3392 Posts
the salarians join the fight if you manage to safe their councilor
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On March 29 2012 22:58 Skilledblob wrote:
the salarians join the fight if you manage to safe their councilor
OK, but you can only do that if Thane saves him? That is only possible if you imported a ME2 character. I played a new character and the consequences were no Thane, Miranda dies, no Wrex, Eve dies, Legion is a stranger, cannot have both Geth and Quorian, I have to choose between killing one race or the other and if choose Geth then Tali kills herself, no Jack, no Kasumi, no Zaeed, no Samara etc.
Brilliant game but the ending was just complete crap.
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Those are the Turians
The Salarians never had their homeworld invaded seemingly, they seem to be the most intact racea t the end
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On March 29 2012 23:17 KOFgokuon wrote:
Those are the Turians
The Salarians never had their homeworld invaded seemingly, they seem to be the most intact racea t the end
What's the Salarian homeworld ?
Because Sur'Kesh definitly get invaded from what you hear in the game.
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On March 29 2012 23:22 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 23:17 KOFgokuon wrote:
Those are the Turians
The Salarians never had their homeworld invaded seemingly, they seem to be the most intact racea t the end What's the Salarian homeworld ? Because Sur'Kesh definitly get invaded from what you hear in the game.
Dekuuna, the homeworld of the elcor.
Earth, the homeworld of the humans.
Irune, the homeworld of the volus.
Kahje, the homeworld of the hanar.
Khar'shan, the homeworld of the batarians.
Palaven, the homeworld of the turians.
Parnack, the homeworld of the yahg.
Rakhana, the homeworld of the drell.
Rannoch, the homeworld of the quarians.
Sur'Kesh, the homeworld of the salarians.
Thessia, the homeworld of the asari.
Tuchanka, the homeworld of the krogan.
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Well yeah, Sur'Kesh get invaded. You hear about it after you beat the mission there. I don't remember a lot of details tho.
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On March 29 2012 21:46 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 18:46 Latham wrote:
Apparently they are Gods, because you need to build a Deus Ex Machina to defeat them... Deus Ex Machina- God out of the Work-a term used in Roman plays in which a god would descend from the ceiling of the theater and proclaim that everything was all right years later, and that the protagonist and his wife and family were all living happily ever after. The term has nothing to do with killing gods. But yeah, the idea of the Crucible did seem a bit rushed.
My point was that if they hadn't made the Reapers into God-like all-powerful entities they wouldn't need such a cheap plot device like a Deus Ex Machina to actually fight them.
and to clarify more: Crucible = pulled-out-of-the-ass-for-the-sake-of-saving-the-plot-god-killer.
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On March 30 2012 00:02 Latham wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 21:46 Praetorial wrote:On March 29 2012 18:46 Latham wrote:
Apparently they are Gods, because you need to build a Deus Ex Machina to defeat them... Deus Ex Machina- God out of the Work-a term used in Roman plays in which a god would descend from the ceiling of the theater and proclaim that everything was all right years later, and that the protagonist and his wife and family were all living happily ever after. The term has nothing to do with killing gods. But yeah, the idea of the Crucible did seem a bit rushed. My point was that if they hadn't made the Reapers into God-like all-powerful entities they wouldn't need such a cheap plot device like a Deus Ex Machina to actually fight them. and to clarify more: Crucible = pulled-out-of-the-ass-for-the-sake-of-saving-the-plot-god-killer.
Actually I think they can kill Reapers in straight up battle. I mean the Thanix Cannon was developed from the Weapons of Sovereign. They had the citadel so they should have been able to take control of the relay network. Further, the bulk of the reaper forces are the small destroyers (like the ones killed on Rannoch, Tuchanka and right before the beam on earth). In essence I think the possibilities of fighting the reapers conventionally are much better than people think.
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Honestly, I replayed ME1/2 again just up to the release of ME3 and I found that as well. After playing ME3, I did in fact think about reading that a few days later, but I decided it was probably nothing.
Looking back to those very words yet again... honestly I still don't think it's anything really.
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I like the time capsule idea, thousands of species involved in a project spanning eons all culminating in a device meant to address the Reaper issue.
Liara even sets up the next round of time capsules in case organics fail again in the current cycle.
Using the same reasoning Liara does for spreading the information, it is likely that the plans for the crucible are scattered throughout the universe. Likely there are unrecovered plans in most, if not all systems that had primative life in the previous cycle.
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EPT
