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Mass Effect 3 - Page 109

Forum Index > General Games
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SolaR-
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States2685 Posts
March 18 2012 21:39 GMT
#2161
I wanted the reapers to win.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
March 18 2012 22:07 GMT
#2162
http://angryjoeshow.com/2012/03/top-10-reasons-we-hate-mass-effect-3s-ending/

Nice summary of everything wrong with the ending.
CeriseCherries
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
6170 Posts
March 18 2012 22:07 GMT
#2163
On March 19 2012 06:39 SolaR- wrote:
I wanted the reapers to win.


no heart >:
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
Gnosis
Profile Joined December 2008
Scotland912 Posts
March 18 2012 22:19 GMT
#2164
Has Bioware released any info on why things like holstering aren't a feature? Why doors don't auto open (Normandy); why the journal / codex are useless, etc.?
"Reason is flawless, de jure, but reasoners are not, de facto." – Peter Kreeft
jjun212
Profile Joined December 2004
Canada2208 Posts
March 18 2012 22:19 GMT
#2165
Does anyone else wish that they could have a deeper story line with their romance partner?

I mean like.. more private chats while on the ship;

And more side missions.

I'm not sure but there's a certain flavour that's missing that we had from ME2
Gnosis
Profile Joined December 2008
Scotland912 Posts
March 18 2012 22:24 GMT
#2166
On March 19 2012 07:19 jjun212 wrote:
Does anyone else wish that they could have a deeper story line with their romance partner?

I mean like.. more private chats while on the ship;

And more side missions.

I'm not sure but there's a certain flavour that's missing that we had from ME2


Aside from a few instances, e.g. those concerning Mordin and the Quarian / Geth situation, I felt the conversations / side-quests superficial. The side-quests especially seem to have been reduced from planet exploration (ME1), to planet scanning / exploration (ME2) to mere planet scanning (and only a few at that). I'm on my second playthrough, so I think it's good enough to go through again, but the depth is missing for me.
"Reason is flawless, de jure, but reasoners are not, de facto." – Peter Kreeft
Doomgiver
Profile Joined September 2010
Portugal59 Posts
March 18 2012 22:26 GMT
#2167
On March 19 2012 07:19 Gnosis wrote:
Has Bioware released any info on why things like holstering aren't a feature? Why doors don't auto open (Normandy); why the journal / codex are useless, etc.?


Nope.

This game seems rushed for so many reasons.
One of them is the journal that never updates and many times doesnt even say where the npc wich you are supposed to deliver the quest is.
Another problem is that you can get side quests for systems that you still dont have access too due to not having enough N7 mission or priority ones. I didnt know i had to do those quests to have access to more cluters till i saw that in internet forums.
jjun212
Profile Joined December 2004
Canada2208 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-18 22:32:20
March 18 2012 22:28 GMT
#2168
On March 19 2012 07:24 Gnosis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 07:19 jjun212 wrote:
Does anyone else wish that they could have a deeper story line with their romance partner?

I mean like.. more private chats while on the ship;

And more side missions.

I'm not sure but there's a certain flavour that's missing that we had from ME2


Aside from a few instances, e.g. those concerning Mordin and the Quarian / Geth situation, I felt the conversations / side-quests superficial. The side-quests especially seem to have been reduced from planet exploration (ME1), to planet scanning / exploration (ME2) to mere planet scanning (and only a few at that). I'm on my second playthrough, so I think it's good enough to go through again, but the depth is missing for me.


Yea!
Depth was the word I was looking for..
Even the dreams that Shepard had were kinda.. meh..

Everything is just.. skimmed through...

Like I feel bad for people who really wanted to have a romance with Miranda. All they got was like 1 small scene and she's irrelevant afterwards



And honestly..

I would have been more than happy if the Reapers were just an ancient race of Synthetics without a home and that's why they ravage others. I would have liked that rather than all that other crazy stuff that the fake kid says.
Latham
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
9563 Posts
March 18 2012 22:59 GMT
#2169
On March 19 2012 07:07 On_Slaught wrote:
http://angryjoeshow.com/2012/03/top-10-reasons-we-hate-mass-effect-3s-ending/

Nice summary of everything wrong with the ending.


Very nice summary. Great video, and I just wanted to remind everyone of http://arkis.deviantart.com/art/Mass-Effect-3-Alternate-Endings-SPOILERS-289902125. =)
For the curse of life is the curse of want. PC = https://be.pcpartpicker.com/list/4JknvV
antelope591
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada820 Posts
March 18 2012 22:59 GMT
#2170
On March 19 2012 07:24 Gnosis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 07:19 jjun212 wrote:
Does anyone else wish that they could have a deeper story line with their romance partner?

I mean like.. more private chats while on the ship;

And more side missions.

I'm not sure but there's a certain flavour that's missing that we had from ME2


Aside from a few instances, e.g. those concerning Mordin and the Quarian / Geth situation, I felt the conversations / side-quests superficial. The side-quests especially seem to have been reduced from planet exploration (ME1), to planet scanning / exploration (ME2) to mere planet scanning (and only a few at that). I'm on my second playthrough, so I think it's good enough to go through again, but the depth is missing for me.


Yeah that and the one dimensional ending are keeping me from wanting to go back and play through again. ME1 and ME2 had enough diversity for at least 3-4 playthroughs but this....besides some major choices in the main quests there's nothing to warrant more than 2 playthroughs.
Bleak
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Turkey3059 Posts
March 18 2012 23:03 GMT
#2171
I've just started playing the game yet I see so many people on the Internet complaining about the game's ending...I'm so curious and how the events will turn out but if it's really terrible as people make it to be....well let's see I don't wanna decide before seeing it.
"I am a beacon of knowledge blazing out across a black sea of ignorance. "
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
March 18 2012 23:10 GMT
#2172
On March 19 2012 06:39 SolaR- wrote:
I wanted the reapers to win.

I played up until part way through the Quarian/Geth stuff, and by then, I would agree with you. If the reapers win, all these horrible people I hate would get killed. Seems worth it to me.
Who called in the fleet?
Iyerbeth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
England2410 Posts
March 18 2012 23:19 GMT
#2173
On March 19 2012 06:39 SolaR- wrote:
I wanted the reapers to win.


Indoctrination will eventually kill you, you realise?
♥ Liquid`Sheth ♥ Liquid`TLO ♥
killa_robot
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada1884 Posts
March 18 2012 23:22 GMT
#2174
On March 19 2012 08:03 Bleak wrote:
I've just started playing the game yet I see so many people on the Internet complaining about the game's ending...I'm so curious and how the events will turn out but if it's really terrible as people make it to be....well let's see I don't wanna decide before seeing it.


I'm on my second run-through and I'm just going to stop playing once a certain section of "Priority:Earth" (the last main mission) starts. That's how bad the ending is.
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
March 18 2012 23:27 GMT
#2175
On March 19 2012 08:19 Iyerbeth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 06:39 SolaR- wrote:
I wanted the reapers to win.


Indoctrination will eventually kill you, you realise?

THE best proposed solution to the problem. period. It's just so. elegant.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9727423/1
Administrator
Fencar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States2694 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-18 23:36:53
March 18 2012 23:36 GMT
#2176
On March 12 2012 03:05 Madkipz wrote:
There is a theory about the ending that does have a lot of support. It was eloquently presented by a user on the forums known as lookingglassmind. I think it has some merit, if only the end credits were not so obviously reinforcing the fact that the game is over.

+ Show Spoiler +
In defense of the Hallucination/Indoctrination theory: the BioWare/Player Indoctrination Theory

With the assistance of my peers throughout the rest of this thread, I have collated a series of facts that I would like to present to the community as being evidence for a a priori intention for the endings of ME3. Some of this information will not be new to a lot of you, and it may seem downright strange to a lot of you. It does require a strong and disorienting amount of suspension of disbelief, so if you cannot engage in this type of thought process, I encourage you to skip over this post. It will hurt your brain. Or make you think that I'm crazy. Likely both. (I'm okay with either.)

With the assistance of countless others' highly important observations in this thread, I sumbit to you that possibility the endings of ME3 represent the highest form of the metagaming experience. The highest form of BioWare's "giving the player choice that matters, from ME1 to ME3". The highest form of player interaction that we have yet seen from a video game. This has never before been attempted by a company, and it represents the ballsiest dedication to story and lore that may exist.

I believe that the endings may be indicative of BioWare attempting to allow the player the real-time experience of what indoctrination would be like. This theory explains (in a highly weird, impossible, and completely insane way) all of the missing pieces in the hallucination sequence, and also explains BioWare's real-world actions (such as complete silence since the fan sh*tstorm broke in response to the endings).

If you have not been keeping up with the thread, or if you have not read Byne's/Kitten Tactics/Turtlicious' amalgamation of all of the evidence we have accumulated for the originial hallucination theory on page 1, then I would urge you to do so before you read any more of this post. Due to time constraints, I won't be posting all of the evidences that we have located in this post to confirm or contradict this theory: I leave it in your capable and self-aware hands to attain this information yourself. I am posting this as an add-on to page 1, as I don't think it was properly represented there in its entire grand scope.

So, to the meat of the issue:

We have already established as much evidence as we can that 'proves' that Shepard is either hallucinating/dreaming just prior to/immediately after he runs into Harbinger's beam/Conduit. The hallucination/dream sequence has been quite well fleshed out, with a lot of compelling environmental evidence to support it (again, please see page 1 for further analysis). I am going to use this particular vehicle of suspension of disbelief to propose that BioWare's intention during this sequence is to flag the player with as many markers as they can: This current reality playing before your eyes (the Citadel, the Catalyst, TIM, Anderson) is a reflection of Shepard. It is the product of his/her mind. The meeting with the Catalyst may or may not be rooted in reality; they may meet in some metalphysical dimension, or Shepard may just hallucinate the entire thing. Either way, this theory would argue that it essentially doesn't matter, because what truly matters is the role of the player in this sequence. Your role. The scene is set in a way that urges the player to become aware of things just not being right, of being a place that mirrors (literally) Shepard's experiences throughout the game. The reality presented on the Citadel is an amalgamation of archetypes of every thing Shepard has seen in the series, which this theory challenges the player to understand as being a direct prompt from BioWare to understand that what is truly happening during this scene is all within Shepard's mind. His/her reality. Under her/his control.

Understanding that the reality on the Citadel as being a cerebral concoction that is entirely of Shepard's creation is important when we arrive upon the Crucible. It becomes a vital understanding when we are faced with these three, seemingly bizarre and unexpected choices that the Catalyst gives us. This theory submits that BioWare is asking the player to actively question EVERYTHING that happens once Shepard runs into Harbinger's beam. The cost of not questioning, or making the right choice even if you do?

Real-time player indoctrination. Shepard's literal death.

Think about it carefully. We arrive on the Crucible, and are faced with an archetype of manipulation, the Catalyst. Taking the form of a child that has come to represent everything that is horrendous about the Reapers to Shepard, the Catalyst/Harbinger provides Shepard with three strange and disorienting choices. He first presents Shepard with the option of Destroy, making swift and empty assertations about how it is the wrong choice because it would kill all synthetic life and Shepard herself/himself. At its surface, this seems like the renegade/chaos option, and is even insidiously portrayed in Renegade Red, a direct nod to the Player himself/herself. Directly appealing to your experiences with how the game works. He then goes on at great length about the Control and Synthesis options, portraying Control as the blue paragon/order option. Again, directly appealing to the Player. He argues that Control is the best option, implies that Shepard is the new Catalyst, and leaves us to contemplate the possibility that we could use it to try and save the people we love; after all, we are Shepard, and we would never become like TIM. Synthesis is the last option explored, and it is portrayed as a compromise or as being the Brave New Hope for the galaxy. I have a suspicion that Synthesis may actually be the 'perfect' choice, but that is for another theory. (If you're curious, read about the tech-singularity lore within the game, and research humes spork's posts about the singularity within this thread.) Either way, Synthesis smacks of strangeness because it seems so inherently Reaper-oriented. As though it were servicing the Reapers' philosophy more strongly than the other two options.

This moment, when you are standing there, agonizing over your choice? This is your indoctrination moment. This is where, it could be (fantastically and insanely) argued that this is the moment when indoctrination and all of its insidious power becomes as real as it possibly CAN be to the Player. Think about it! We stand there. We agonize. We freak out about the ridiculous choices, and we wonder (like Shepard would) why we just can't ARUGE with the Catalyst (like Shepard would). And then, as this reality seems to be the only way forward (much like how indoctrination presents a version of reality to the indoctrinated that he/she sees as being the ONLY REAL OPTION -- echoes of TIM, Kai Leng, Saren here), we begin to accept it. Tremulously, we start to make our choice.

If you choose Control, then you, the player -- the one who moves through the game though Shepard's eyes; every choice s/he has ever made in the game has been directly because of you -- have been indoctrinated. It may have been because you thought you could save your crew, your LI, or that you really could gain perfect Control over the Reapers because you are Shepard. Regardless, you have been duped. Indoctrinated by the game. Your slow exposure to the Reapers in 2007 culminates to this final choice -- complete and free player agency and determination.

If you choose Synthesis, you face a fate similar to that of Control. It's debatable to me at this point as to whether or not you have chosen to fulfill the Reapers' purpose, but indoctrination is still a heavy possibility with this one. The only reason that I state this with any certainty is because, like the ending we see with Control, Shepard is dead at the final credits.

If you choose Destroy, then the Player Indoctrination Theory submits that this is you, the player, deciding whether or not Shepard overcomes the indoctrination attempt being rained upon him/her by Harbinger/the Catalyst. If you decide this option, and if you have enough EMS to ensure that Shepard has enough real-world time to get through the indoctrination attempt/hallucination -- Shepard lives. We see him/her breathing in the rubble of London streets at the end of the game. Shepard has defied indoctrination. You, yourself, have defied indoctrination.

Does this theory make sense? Maybe not. When we consider BioWare's real-world motivations and risks (profit, losing a large fanbase over the disgusting wretchedness of the endings as they currently exist), then the theory is hard to support. But if, for just one moment, we can let ourselves believe that BioWare may just have lived up to their celebrated philiosophy of Player Choice and Player Acutalization, then this theory becomes awe-inspiring. Is it possible? Could BioWare have sacrificed the potential for safe profits in order to bring the most insane and beautiful gaming experience of all time to its fans? The most unprecedented example of player immersion of our times? Would BioWare have truly allowed the risk for profit and angering a serious amount of their fan population in pure deference to the story, and its lore?

It may explain BioWare's silence on the matter, until "more people have played the game", or until all regions have the game. It may explain Jess M.'s twitter about fans "reacting before having all of the facts". It may.... just may explain these super sh*tty endings in a way that would make BioWare the God of RPGs.

Is it likely? No. Am I reaching, insanely? Yes.

But is it possible?

Yes.

I am so pumped for DLC reading this. 0.0

This makes sense in so many ways I can barely believe it's possible.

The reason I think most people haven't caught on is because this kind of thing has never happened before.

In my knowledge, at least.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Gnosis
Profile Joined December 2008
Scotland912 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-18 23:52:55
March 18 2012 23:51 GMT
#2177
On March 19 2012 07:59 antelope591 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 07:24 Gnosis wrote:
On March 19 2012 07:19 jjun212 wrote:
Does anyone else wish that they could have a deeper story line with their romance partner?

I mean like.. more private chats while on the ship;

And more side missions.

I'm not sure but there's a certain flavour that's missing that we had from ME2


Aside from a few instances, e.g. those concerning Mordin and the Quarian / Geth situation, I felt the conversations / side-quests superficial. The side-quests especially seem to have been reduced from planet exploration (ME1), to planet scanning / exploration (ME2) to mere planet scanning (and only a few at that). I'm on my second playthrough, so I think it's good enough to go through again, but the depth is missing for me.


Yeah that and the one dimensional ending are keeping me from wanting to go back and play through again. ME1 and ME2 had enough diversity for at least 3-4 playthroughs but this....besides some major choices in the main quests there's nothing to warrant more than 2 playthroughs.


I spent 100+ hours on ME1, having played through with every class and at least once on full paragon / renegade. Did the paragon / renegade thing for ME2, and Steam tells me that took about 80 hours. I'll likely spend 60 - 70 hours at most with ME3, and the (sad) reality is that I appreciate ME2 more because of the obvious lack in ME3.

+ Show Spoiler +
I really do think that gameplay wise, ME3 is the best of the bunch. I did find it easier than ME2, e.g. playing soldier I escaped earth + finished the mars mission with nothing but concussive shell and singularity. In fact in escaping earth I managed to kill every cannibal after activating the radio with concussive shell, so that when the Normandy finally did arrive to "save the day", there weren't actually any cannibals left. I almost thought I broke the game, and was two seconds from posting on BSN - if I could post on BSN - about the issue. Regardless it's poor game design that that portion of the game is on a timer and I could walk to where the Normandy bombs and magically survive. Keep in mind this was on insanity. Well, the only exception to the difficulty were the re-spawning enemies, but that is simply poor game design to my mind. If a developer has to overwhelm me with enemies to make the game challenging, something is wrong. This isn't Robotron.


The other thing is, how do they plan to sell DLC? If the "continue your game" occurs before the final mission, then what the hell is the point? The ending (not endings) is horrible and absolutely nothing will change (presumably), so what incentive is there? I'd really like to see end-game DLC that takes place post suicide-mission-redux.

I'm really torn. I think there are parts of ME3 that are well done, but at the same time corporate greed has left its mark.
"Reason is flawless, de jure, but reasoners are not, de facto." – Peter Kreeft
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
March 19 2012 00:29 GMT
#2178
On March 19 2012 08:36 Fencer710 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 03:05 Madkipz wrote:
There is a theory about the ending that does have a lot of support. It was eloquently presented by a user on the forums known as lookingglassmind. I think it has some merit, if only the end credits were not so obviously reinforcing the fact that the game is over.

+ Show Spoiler +
In defense of the Hallucination/Indoctrination theory: the BioWare/Player Indoctrination Theory

With the assistance of my peers throughout the rest of this thread, I have collated a series of facts that I would like to present to the community as being evidence for a a priori intention for the endings of ME3. Some of this information will not be new to a lot of you, and it may seem downright strange to a lot of you. It does require a strong and disorienting amount of suspension of disbelief, so if you cannot engage in this type of thought process, I encourage you to skip over this post. It will hurt your brain. Or make you think that I'm crazy. Likely both. (I'm okay with either.)

With the assistance of countless others' highly important observations in this thread, I sumbit to you that possibility the endings of ME3 represent the highest form of the metagaming experience. The highest form of BioWare's "giving the player choice that matters, from ME1 to ME3". The highest form of player interaction that we have yet seen from a video game. This has never before been attempted by a company, and it represents the ballsiest dedication to story and lore that may exist.

I believe that the endings may be indicative of BioWare attempting to allow the player the real-time experience of what indoctrination would be like. This theory explains (in a highly weird, impossible, and completely insane way) all of the missing pieces in the hallucination sequence, and also explains BioWare's real-world actions (such as complete silence since the fan sh*tstorm broke in response to the endings).

If you have not been keeping up with the thread, or if you have not read Byne's/Kitten Tactics/Turtlicious' amalgamation of all of the evidence we have accumulated for the originial hallucination theory on page 1, then I would urge you to do so before you read any more of this post. Due to time constraints, I won't be posting all of the evidences that we have located in this post to confirm or contradict this theory: I leave it in your capable and self-aware hands to attain this information yourself. I am posting this as an add-on to page 1, as I don't think it was properly represented there in its entire grand scope.

So, to the meat of the issue:

We have already established as much evidence as we can that 'proves' that Shepard is either hallucinating/dreaming just prior to/immediately after he runs into Harbinger's beam/Conduit. The hallucination/dream sequence has been quite well fleshed out, with a lot of compelling environmental evidence to support it (again, please see page 1 for further analysis). I am going to use this particular vehicle of suspension of disbelief to propose that BioWare's intention during this sequence is to flag the player with as many markers as they can: This current reality playing before your eyes (the Citadel, the Catalyst, TIM, Anderson) is a reflection of Shepard. It is the product of his/her mind. The meeting with the Catalyst may or may not be rooted in reality; they may meet in some metalphysical dimension, or Shepard may just hallucinate the entire thing. Either way, this theory would argue that it essentially doesn't matter, because what truly matters is the role of the player in this sequence. Your role. The scene is set in a way that urges the player to become aware of things just not being right, of being a place that mirrors (literally) Shepard's experiences throughout the game. The reality presented on the Citadel is an amalgamation of archetypes of every thing Shepard has seen in the series, which this theory challenges the player to understand as being a direct prompt from BioWare to understand that what is truly happening during this scene is all within Shepard's mind. His/her reality. Under her/his control.

Understanding that the reality on the Citadel as being a cerebral concoction that is entirely of Shepard's creation is important when we arrive upon the Crucible. It becomes a vital understanding when we are faced with these three, seemingly bizarre and unexpected choices that the Catalyst gives us. This theory submits that BioWare is asking the player to actively question EVERYTHING that happens once Shepard runs into Harbinger's beam. The cost of not questioning, or making the right choice even if you do?

Real-time player indoctrination. Shepard's literal death.

Think about it carefully. We arrive on the Crucible, and are faced with an archetype of manipulation, the Catalyst. Taking the form of a child that has come to represent everything that is horrendous about the Reapers to Shepard, the Catalyst/Harbinger provides Shepard with three strange and disorienting choices. He first presents Shepard with the option of Destroy, making swift and empty assertations about how it is the wrong choice because it would kill all synthetic life and Shepard herself/himself. At its surface, this seems like the renegade/chaos option, and is even insidiously portrayed in Renegade Red, a direct nod to the Player himself/herself. Directly appealing to your experiences with how the game works. He then goes on at great length about the Control and Synthesis options, portraying Control as the blue paragon/order option. Again, directly appealing to the Player. He argues that Control is the best option, implies that Shepard is the new Catalyst, and leaves us to contemplate the possibility that we could use it to try and save the people we love; after all, we are Shepard, and we would never become like TIM. Synthesis is the last option explored, and it is portrayed as a compromise or as being the Brave New Hope for the galaxy. I have a suspicion that Synthesis may actually be the 'perfect' choice, but that is for another theory. (If you're curious, read about the tech-singularity lore within the game, and research humes spork's posts about the singularity within this thread.) Either way, Synthesis smacks of strangeness because it seems so inherently Reaper-oriented. As though it were servicing the Reapers' philosophy more strongly than the other two options.

This moment, when you are standing there, agonizing over your choice? This is your indoctrination moment. This is where, it could be (fantastically and insanely) argued that this is the moment when indoctrination and all of its insidious power becomes as real as it possibly CAN be to the Player. Think about it! We stand there. We agonize. We freak out about the ridiculous choices, and we wonder (like Shepard would) why we just can't ARUGE with the Catalyst (like Shepard would). And then, as this reality seems to be the only way forward (much like how indoctrination presents a version of reality to the indoctrinated that he/she sees as being the ONLY REAL OPTION -- echoes of TIM, Kai Leng, Saren here), we begin to accept it. Tremulously, we start to make our choice.

If you choose Control, then you, the player -- the one who moves through the game though Shepard's eyes; every choice s/he has ever made in the game has been directly because of you -- have been indoctrinated. It may have been because you thought you could save your crew, your LI, or that you really could gain perfect Control over the Reapers because you are Shepard. Regardless, you have been duped. Indoctrinated by the game. Your slow exposure to the Reapers in 2007 culminates to this final choice -- complete and free player agency and determination.

If you choose Synthesis, you face a fate similar to that of Control. It's debatable to me at this point as to whether or not you have chosen to fulfill the Reapers' purpose, but indoctrination is still a heavy possibility with this one. The only reason that I state this with any certainty is because, like the ending we see with Control, Shepard is dead at the final credits.

If you choose Destroy, then the Player Indoctrination Theory submits that this is you, the player, deciding whether or not Shepard overcomes the indoctrination attempt being rained upon him/her by Harbinger/the Catalyst. If you decide this option, and if you have enough EMS to ensure that Shepard has enough real-world time to get through the indoctrination attempt/hallucination -- Shepard lives. We see him/her breathing in the rubble of London streets at the end of the game. Shepard has defied indoctrination. You, yourself, have defied indoctrination.

Does this theory make sense? Maybe not. When we consider BioWare's real-world motivations and risks (profit, losing a large fanbase over the disgusting wretchedness of the endings as they currently exist), then the theory is hard to support. But if, for just one moment, we can let ourselves believe that BioWare may just have lived up to their celebrated philiosophy of Player Choice and Player Acutalization, then this theory becomes awe-inspiring. Is it possible? Could BioWare have sacrificed the potential for safe profits in order to bring the most insane and beautiful gaming experience of all time to its fans? The most unprecedented example of player immersion of our times? Would BioWare have truly allowed the risk for profit and angering a serious amount of their fan population in pure deference to the story, and its lore?

It may explain BioWare's silence on the matter, until "more people have played the game", or until all regions have the game. It may explain Jess M.'s twitter about fans "reacting before having all of the facts". It may.... just may explain these super sh*tty endings in a way that would make BioWare the God of RPGs.

Is it likely? No. Am I reaching, insanely? Yes.

But is it possible?

Yes.

I am so pumped for DLC reading this. 0.0

This makes sense in so many ways I can barely believe it's possible.

The reason I think most people haven't caught on is because this kind of thing has never happened before.

In my knowledge, at least.

If we're only talking about video-games, just off the top of my head both Bioshock and Black Ops pulled the same kind of trick.

When it comes to fiction in general, it's even more common, especially after the success of Fight Club.
Who called in the fleet?
CobaltBlu
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States919 Posts
March 19 2012 00:54 GMT
#2179
On March 19 2012 07:07 On_Slaught wrote:
http://angryjoeshow.com/2012/03/top-10-reasons-we-hate-mass-effect-3s-ending/
+ Show Spoiler +

Nice summary of everything wrong with the ending.


This covers a bunch of the points that I found upsetting in the ending. Listening to the intro reminded me of how awesome the Mass Effect music is. It's too bad lots of great things get marred by the ending.



On March 19 2012 08:36 Fencer710 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I am so pumped for DLC reading this. 0.0

This makes sense in so many ways I can barely believe it's possible.

The reason I think most people haven't caught on is because this kind of thing has never happened before.

In my knowledge, at least.


+ Show Spoiler +
I think more people would be willing to accept this or 'catch on' to it if there was any indication that this was the case following the ending we received. As it stands making the ending having Shepard being indoctrinated and then having there be no resolution to what happens following your indoctrination episode is unacceptable. I can't think of a good reason to deceive your game's player base like that for a couple months.

I think what's actually happening is that the ending is so nonsensical and unsatisfying that fans would prefer to think that it was a hallucinated episode. I think that BW definitely left that open as a possible interpretation on purpose because there is so much wtfery going on.

SKC
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil18828 Posts
March 19 2012 00:54 GMT
#2180
On March 19 2012 09:29 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 08:36 Fencer710 wrote:
On March 12 2012 03:05 Madkipz wrote:
There is a theory about the ending that does have a lot of support. It was eloquently presented by a user on the forums known as lookingglassmind. I think it has some merit, if only the end credits were not so obviously reinforcing the fact that the game is over.

+ Show Spoiler +
In defense of the Hallucination/Indoctrination theory: the BioWare/Player Indoctrination Theory

With the assistance of my peers throughout the rest of this thread, I have collated a series of facts that I would like to present to the community as being evidence for a a priori intention for the endings of ME3. Some of this information will not be new to a lot of you, and it may seem downright strange to a lot of you. It does require a strong and disorienting amount of suspension of disbelief, so if you cannot engage in this type of thought process, I encourage you to skip over this post. It will hurt your brain. Or make you think that I'm crazy. Likely both. (I'm okay with either.)

With the assistance of countless others' highly important observations in this thread, I sumbit to you that possibility the endings of ME3 represent the highest form of the metagaming experience. The highest form of BioWare's "giving the player choice that matters, from ME1 to ME3". The highest form of player interaction that we have yet seen from a video game. This has never before been attempted by a company, and it represents the ballsiest dedication to story and lore that may exist.

I believe that the endings may be indicative of BioWare attempting to allow the player the real-time experience of what indoctrination would be like. This theory explains (in a highly weird, impossible, and completely insane way) all of the missing pieces in the hallucination sequence, and also explains BioWare's real-world actions (such as complete silence since the fan sh*tstorm broke in response to the endings).

If you have not been keeping up with the thread, or if you have not read Byne's/Kitten Tactics/Turtlicious' amalgamation of all of the evidence we have accumulated for the originial hallucination theory on page 1, then I would urge you to do so before you read any more of this post. Due to time constraints, I won't be posting all of the evidences that we have located in this post to confirm or contradict this theory: I leave it in your capable and self-aware hands to attain this information yourself. I am posting this as an add-on to page 1, as I don't think it was properly represented there in its entire grand scope.

So, to the meat of the issue:

We have already established as much evidence as we can that 'proves' that Shepard is either hallucinating/dreaming just prior to/immediately after he runs into Harbinger's beam/Conduit. The hallucination/dream sequence has been quite well fleshed out, with a lot of compelling environmental evidence to support it (again, please see page 1 for further analysis). I am going to use this particular vehicle of suspension of disbelief to propose that BioWare's intention during this sequence is to flag the player with as many markers as they can: This current reality playing before your eyes (the Citadel, the Catalyst, TIM, Anderson) is a reflection of Shepard. It is the product of his/her mind. The meeting with the Catalyst may or may not be rooted in reality; they may meet in some metalphysical dimension, or Shepard may just hallucinate the entire thing. Either way, this theory would argue that it essentially doesn't matter, because what truly matters is the role of the player in this sequence. Your role. The scene is set in a way that urges the player to become aware of things just not being right, of being a place that mirrors (literally) Shepard's experiences throughout the game. The reality presented on the Citadel is an amalgamation of archetypes of every thing Shepard has seen in the series, which this theory challenges the player to understand as being a direct prompt from BioWare to understand that what is truly happening during this scene is all within Shepard's mind. His/her reality. Under her/his control.

Understanding that the reality on the Citadel as being a cerebral concoction that is entirely of Shepard's creation is important when we arrive upon the Crucible. It becomes a vital understanding when we are faced with these three, seemingly bizarre and unexpected choices that the Catalyst gives us. This theory submits that BioWare is asking the player to actively question EVERYTHING that happens once Shepard runs into Harbinger's beam. The cost of not questioning, or making the right choice even if you do?

Real-time player indoctrination. Shepard's literal death.

Think about it carefully. We arrive on the Crucible, and are faced with an archetype of manipulation, the Catalyst. Taking the form of a child that has come to represent everything that is horrendous about the Reapers to Shepard, the Catalyst/Harbinger provides Shepard with three strange and disorienting choices. He first presents Shepard with the option of Destroy, making swift and empty assertations about how it is the wrong choice because it would kill all synthetic life and Shepard herself/himself. At its surface, this seems like the renegade/chaos option, and is even insidiously portrayed in Renegade Red, a direct nod to the Player himself/herself. Directly appealing to your experiences with how the game works. He then goes on at great length about the Control and Synthesis options, portraying Control as the blue paragon/order option. Again, directly appealing to the Player. He argues that Control is the best option, implies that Shepard is the new Catalyst, and leaves us to contemplate the possibility that we could use it to try and save the people we love; after all, we are Shepard, and we would never become like TIM. Synthesis is the last option explored, and it is portrayed as a compromise or as being the Brave New Hope for the galaxy. I have a suspicion that Synthesis may actually be the 'perfect' choice, but that is for another theory. (If you're curious, read about the tech-singularity lore within the game, and research humes spork's posts about the singularity within this thread.) Either way, Synthesis smacks of strangeness because it seems so inherently Reaper-oriented. As though it were servicing the Reapers' philosophy more strongly than the other two options.

This moment, when you are standing there, agonizing over your choice? This is your indoctrination moment. This is where, it could be (fantastically and insanely) argued that this is the moment when indoctrination and all of its insidious power becomes as real as it possibly CAN be to the Player. Think about it! We stand there. We agonize. We freak out about the ridiculous choices, and we wonder (like Shepard would) why we just can't ARUGE with the Catalyst (like Shepard would). And then, as this reality seems to be the only way forward (much like how indoctrination presents a version of reality to the indoctrinated that he/she sees as being the ONLY REAL OPTION -- echoes of TIM, Kai Leng, Saren here), we begin to accept it. Tremulously, we start to make our choice.

If you choose Control, then you, the player -- the one who moves through the game though Shepard's eyes; every choice s/he has ever made in the game has been directly because of you -- have been indoctrinated. It may have been because you thought you could save your crew, your LI, or that you really could gain perfect Control over the Reapers because you are Shepard. Regardless, you have been duped. Indoctrinated by the game. Your slow exposure to the Reapers in 2007 culminates to this final choice -- complete and free player agency and determination.

If you choose Synthesis, you face a fate similar to that of Control. It's debatable to me at this point as to whether or not you have chosen to fulfill the Reapers' purpose, but indoctrination is still a heavy possibility with this one. The only reason that I state this with any certainty is because, like the ending we see with Control, Shepard is dead at the final credits.

If you choose Destroy, then the Player Indoctrination Theory submits that this is you, the player, deciding whether or not Shepard overcomes the indoctrination attempt being rained upon him/her by Harbinger/the Catalyst. If you decide this option, and if you have enough EMS to ensure that Shepard has enough real-world time to get through the indoctrination attempt/hallucination -- Shepard lives. We see him/her breathing in the rubble of London streets at the end of the game. Shepard has defied indoctrination. You, yourself, have defied indoctrination.

Does this theory make sense? Maybe not. When we consider BioWare's real-world motivations and risks (profit, losing a large fanbase over the disgusting wretchedness of the endings as they currently exist), then the theory is hard to support. But if, for just one moment, we can let ourselves believe that BioWare may just have lived up to their celebrated philiosophy of Player Choice and Player Acutalization, then this theory becomes awe-inspiring. Is it possible? Could BioWare have sacrificed the potential for safe profits in order to bring the most insane and beautiful gaming experience of all time to its fans? The most unprecedented example of player immersion of our times? Would BioWare have truly allowed the risk for profit and angering a serious amount of their fan population in pure deference to the story, and its lore?

It may explain BioWare's silence on the matter, until "more people have played the game", or until all regions have the game. It may explain Jess M.'s twitter about fans "reacting before having all of the facts". It may.... just may explain these super sh*tty endings in a way that would make BioWare the God of RPGs.

Is it likely? No. Am I reaching, insanely? Yes.

But is it possible?

Yes.

I am so pumped for DLC reading this. 0.0

This makes sense in so many ways I can barely believe it's possible.

The reason I think most people haven't caught on is because this kind of thing has never happened before.

In my knowledge, at least.

If we're only talking about video-games, just off the top of my head both Bioshock and Black Ops pulled the same kind of trick.

When it comes to fiction in general, it's even more common, especially after the success of Fight Club.


I don't think it has ever been this subtle. Yes, the old "it was all a dream" ending is pretty old, but it's ussually something to surprise the viewers in the end. You can't the deny that it happened in Fight Club/Link's Awakening/etc, while in ME3 most people would never know it to be true just by playing the game. Unless they do release a official statement/DLC, it can still be just a really shitty ending. So far it's just people hoping it is more than it seems to be, noone is actually certain.
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