EPTMagic: The Gathering - Page 639
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On January 16 2016 16:19 TheYango wrote: Tron and Affinity also stand to gain the most from the super-pushed colorless cards in OGW (as the two T1 decks with manabases most supportive of casting those cards), so a Twin ban is a bit myopic in that those two decks will doubly benefit from Twin's ban + OGW's release simultaneously. I can't see Affinity running any of them tbh (warping wail maaaybe?, and Sea Gate Wreckage if it can be slotted in Affinity's already very tight manabase). Tron does get quite a few nice tools though. Also Bloom getting banned also helps Tron. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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sung_moon
United States10110 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On January 17 2016 06:31 sung_moon wrote: If they want to hate on Tron later, would Expedition Map ban be reasonable? Wizards wouldn't ban Expedition Map imo. They don't usually ban cards like that. Plus Expedition Map isn't too hard to replace for Tron. | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On January 17 2016 09:31 Shotcoder wrote: I love they banned twin in an attempt to somehow let other Blue based control decks to come to life in the format when they literally killed the only blue deck in the format not merfolk. Unless they plan on unbanning it at a later date they better expect to need to unban something like SFM or Jace to give them something to feel good about themselves. Grixis and Jeskai are both good, competitive decks on their own, but the Twin Combo was too good not to put in there. It just frees up slots for something more spicy. | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
On January 17 2016 09:51 deth2munkies wrote: Grixis and Jeskai are both good, competitive decks on their own, but the Twin Combo was too good not to put in there. It just frees up slots for something more spicy. Maybe your definition of good and mine are different. I would consider these decks OK. They're missing one good card to help them get ahead and close out the game. Jeskai has the benefits of a really good burn match up and is good vs the aggro decks that will surge but it has almost zero game vs Tron and I would assume the same vs the Eldrazi deck. Grixis has become extremely unpopular for a reason. It even had a decent twin match up. Plus Scapeshift is going to be a big player in the format again which both decks have issues beating. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On January 17 2016 10:18 Shotcoder wrote: Maybe your definition of good and mine are different. I would consider these decks OK. They're missing one good card to help them get ahead and close out the game. Jeskai has the benefits of a really good burn match up and is good vs the aggro decks that will surge but it has almost zero game vs Tron and I would assume the same vs the Eldrazi deck. Grixis has become extremely unpopular for a reason. It even had a decent twin match up. Plus Scapeshift is going to be a big player in the format again which both decks have issues beating. Grixis has Counterspells and Fulminators, but Jeskai does have an atrocious Scapeshift matchup. Again, though, there's more slots for more counters/sideboard cards without the Twin combo. I'm not going to pretend to be an authority on control, but I trust those that are will find a way to make it work. | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
On January 17 2016 11:21 deth2munkies wrote: Grixis has Counterspells and Fulminators, but Jeskai does have an atrocious Scapeshift matchup. Again, though, there's more slots for more counters/sideboard cards without the Twin combo. I'm not going to pretend to be an authority on control, but I trust those that are will find a way to make it work. The problem is grixis has an atrocious Burn, Affinity and I guess the infect match up is serviceable, not as good as jeskai with access to two different colored 1 mana removal spells and one of them being path. Both decks prey on different part of the meta and get absolutely dumpstered by the other half. It's going to be even more like coin flip magic trying to dodge Tron and Eldrazi as a jeskai player instead of dealing with skill intensive games vs twin every 2-3 rounds. I haven't played grixis as much as I have jeskai but both of them feel awful. Maybe Something similar to McClaren's GP list is what should be played to give you that stronger mid game to prey on tron and the eldrazi deck if they stumble and threaten to just win at a lot of points in the game. I'm spit balling and am kind of tired so it feels like I'm rambling. We'll see how the format shakes out here in the next month or so. My gut reaction is blue is going to have to find a new win con and I don't know a good way to do it that doesn't absolutely suck in 50% of games. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On January 17 2016 06:31 sung_moon wrote: If they want to hate on Tron later, would Expedition Map ban be reasonable? Probably Ancient Stirrings to be honest, that card is really powerful only in Tron right now. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On January 17 2016 12:43 Judicator wrote: Probably Ancient Stirrings to be honest, that card is really powerful only in Tron right now. Well you might not want to ban it when you just introduced a shitload of colorless Eldrazi cards to the format. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 17 2016 12:43 Judicator wrote: Probably Ancient Stirrings to be honest, that card is really powerful only in Tron right now. Well, and Lantern, but that's not a deck I'd mind losing. On January 17 2016 09:51 deth2munkies wrote: Grixis and Jeskai are both good, competitive decks on their own, but the Twin Combo was too good not to put in there. It just frees up slots for something more spicy. Both decks got a lot of their strength in the format from being good against Twin. Neither has a great game against Tron and if Tron becomes public enemy #1, that's not going to be good to them. Honestly the worst thing about this ban is how atrocious the explanation is. The writer essentially conflates Twin as being a control shell, when it isn't. It's a tempo deck that can shift into a more grindy, controlling mode post-board with cards like Keranos or Jace, AoT--but the primary gameplan of the deck is much closer to other tempo decks (using the combo threat to get a tempo advantage by forcing the opponent to play 1-2 turns behind on their mana) than it is to Grixis or UWR, even though it shares some cards with them. Those other tempo decks coexisted with Twin for a time. It was the banning of Treasure Cruise that killed those decks, not some purported assimilation by the Twin archetype. The comparison between Alex Bianchi's Jeskai Twin deck and Shaun McLaren's UWR Control is a very superficial one that doesn't really understand the goals of either deck. Yes they share some cards but that's because those cards are outright the best cards in those colors (Snap, Bolt, Path, etc.). That's like saying Jund and Naya Zoo are the same kind of deck because they both play Tarmogoyfs, Scavenging Oozes, and Lightning Bolts. Jeskai Twin isn't just Jeskai Control with slots opened up for the Twin combo package; Twin isn't remotely trying to play the same kind of game as a Celestial Colonnade/Ajani Vengeant deck. EDIT: On a completely different note, I'm not convinced the Bx Eldrazi deck will be a strong player in the new post-Twin world. The two most apparent winners from the Twin ban are Affinity and Tron, and both of those aren't decks Bx Eldrazi really wants to face. The Eldrazi deck preys on Tarmogoyf/Snapcaster Mage decks, and the biggest Snapcaster Mage deck in the format just suddenly ceased to exist. | ||
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annedeman
Netherlands350 Posts
On January 17 2016 11:21 deth2munkies wrote: Grixis has Counterspells and Fulminators, but Jeskai does have an atrocious Scapeshift matchup. Again, though, there's more slots for more counters/sideboard cards without the Twin combo. I'm not going to pretend to be an authority on control, but I trust those that are will find a way to make it work. In pretty every mtgo result based mu report these decks reported a mediocre winrate vs most decks but a very strong twin mu turned them to slightly south of 50% winrate. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On January 17 2016 16:25 annedeman wrote: In pretty every mtgo result based mu report these decks reported a mediocre winrate vs most decks but a very strong twin mu turned them to slightly south of 50% winrate. Control in modern doesn't have a lot of catch-alls. This means you have to tune your deck to the matchups you expect to face most often, which reduces your win rate against decks that aren't what you're tuned to. We'll see how the chips fall in a couple weeks. Edit: Regardless, burn is going to be a shit matchup for Grixis lol. I just don't know how doom and gloom to be about Tron (which from my experience with most builds is also a bad matchup, but again that was for older builds) | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 17 2016 17:36 Judicator wrote: That's control in general right now and how wizards want the decks to be. The idea works in Standard where they can tune the power level of the card pool so that nobody's doing any super unfair things. Then the "control" decks just need to be slightly grindier midrange decks that have better top end than the midrange-ier midrange decks. I think that's fine for Standard and it works there. I don't see why WotC felt this would work for a nonrotating format. The card pool is too large. Without strong answers, you just have a lot of unfair decks doing unfair things, and you end up playing a lot of non-games of Magic when you don't have enough interaction points to stop their game. Unlike Standard, where you can exercise a lot of control over the card pool since it's so small and rotates quickly, you just simply can't exercise that level of control over what people are doing in Modern. You'd have to ban literally hundreds of cards to get Modern to play like that. | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
On January 17 2016 16:25 annedeman wrote: In pretty every mtgo result based mu report these decks reported a mediocre winrate vs most decks but a very strong twin mu turned them to slightly south of 50% winrate. I actually believe there was an article on mtg goldfish a few months back that actually supported jeskai control as having the highest win rate among decks on mtgo but didn't have the requisite number of showing to qualify as a powerful player in the format. The only problem is since then tron and jund have become more popular so I think that number might be down. | ||
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WindWolf
Sweden11767 Posts
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