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On April 01 2015 08:49 Judicator wrote:That's because you have no idea how to play the match up because of your personal biases. You ignoring many things that matter. If you go into the match up expecting to get combo-ed out turn 4 and play as such every time (which seems to be true given your original responses), then I don't see the point in your argument. I don't see the point of you arguing that the Twin combo plays at instant speed, when control decks play at the same speed utilize very little of the board. As for Modern being a standard-like eternal format...I don't think anyone wants that. We had that. It was called extended and it was the reason we have Modern. Edit: Also saying that the combo is always there is like saying control players always have the cryptic, so not sure what you are trying to say there.
No, the combo isn't always there, the threat of the combo is always there and there's no good way short of probing or thoughtseizing every single turn to know whether or not it's there.
You can play around a control opponent having counterspells or wraths (or both if you have good enough threats), but you can't play around a combo that kills you at instant speed without utterly gimping yourself by holding up answers every turn.
Look, the point is that it's a control deck with a finisher that instantly kills you at instant speed. No other control deck has this, U/W and UWR primarily use Celestial Colonnade and burn spells, both of which can be played around and allow your opponent to respond as you kill them over multiple turns. Standard control decks use Pearl Lake Ancient, Ugin, and the like, all of which have play to them. So you have to deal with playing around typical tempo/control cards like counterspells and bolts AND the possibility of dying instantly, the combination of which is broken.
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??? Why do you need to Thoughtseize for the combo? Why would you need to hold up answers every turn? Its a 4 mana sorcery speed combo kill, what? I am thoroughly confused on why you are so deathly afraid of the combo to the point where you are playing around it every single time....
Control decks put you in the state of you have lost, you just haven't actually lost....which invalidates your draws anyways....
I don't see how this matters, you have cards that interact with the combo pretty efficiently a la sideboard. They're not exactly crippling you from executing your plans...I don't think the combo is put together that often...again its a 4 mana sorcery speed combo involving a 1/4 and a 2/1.....in a format with both efficient answers (especially post-board).
Not sure how you can just rail against the combo when a turn 3 blood moon is probably better against a lot of decks...I mean if you think the combo is truly that broken wouldn't you think Twin players would have jammed 4 Pact of Negations in their decks a long time ago? However, the opposite has happened to players relying on the Flash to be mana efficient rather than jamming the combo on 4.
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On April 01 2015 09:07 Judicator wrote:
??? Why do you need to Thoughtseize for the combo? Why would you need to hold up answers every turn? Its a 4 mana sorcery speed combo kill, what? I am thoroughly confused on why you are so deathly afraid of the combo to the point where you are playing around it every single time....
Control decks put you in the state of you have lost, you just haven't actually lost....which invalidates your draws anyways....
I don't see how this matters, you have cards that interact with the combo pretty efficiently a la sideboard. They're not exactly crippling you from executing your plans...I don't think the combo is put together that often...again its a 4 mana sorcery speed combo involving a 1/4 and a 2/1.....in a format with both efficient answers (especially post-board).
Not sure how you can just rail against the combo when a turn 3 blood moon is probably better against a lot of decks...I mean if you think the combo is truly that broken wouldn't you think Twin players would have jammed 4 Pact of Negations in their decks a long time ago? However, the opposite has happened to players relying on the Flash to be mana efficient rather than jamming the combo on 4.
You can't tap your mana on your turn. Sure, playing Twin can be interrupted, but only if you left mana up on your turn. It's an instant speed combo because you cannot interact to it between one of your turns and the next. The fact that the deck is a good Blood Moon deck is utterly beside the point. The threat of the combo is what makes the deck so potent and so good, everything else is just gravy.
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I'm thinking of getting into magic. what's the best way to get a decent deck? should I just buy one off somebody or ebay or something or what?
sorry there isnt much information here, I cant think of anything else to put.
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United States24753 Posts
On April 01 2015 09:23 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I'm thinking of getting into magic. what's the best way to get a decent deck? should I just buy one or what?
sorry there isnt much information here, I cant think of anything else to put.
The first thing you need to do is decide what type of magic you want to play. The two most likely scenarios are to play constructed, or limited. If you aren't already familiar with those two options, you should read up on them.
If you just want to play casually with people you know IRL then you should talk to them.
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On April 01 2015 09:28 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 09:23 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I'm thinking of getting into magic. what's the best way to get a decent deck? should I just buy one or what?
sorry there isnt much information here, I cant think of anything else to put. The first thing you need to do is decide what type of magic you want to play. The two most likely scenarios are to play constructed, or limited. If you aren't already familiar with those two options, you should read up on them. If you just want to play casually with people you know IRL then you should talk to them.
okay thanks.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
I agree with micronesia in that you likely want to lay similar formats to what your friends or local game store will be playing.
That being said however, if you're looking for some generic advice when starting out playing MtG, this is a pretty comprehensive starting point.
Also just to highlight a few things:
- If you have never played MtG at all before, I really recommend picking up the Duel of the Planeswalkers game(s) on Steam/console and give it a whirl. It's cheap, and will let you know if this is the kind of game you will enjoy before you commit a lot of money.
- When starting off and building your collection, playing Limited is good. The post I linked mentions this but I'm going to re-emphasise this cause it's important. Don't dump a lot of money trying to open packs or whatever, or feel like you have to commit huge amounts of money up front.
- Ask some friends to borrow their decks to give them a try and see what different archetypes of decks play and feel like. There's a big difference between, say, a slow controlling style deck that tries to slowly wear someone down and a fast aggro deck that tries to kill as fast as possible.
- If you're just playing with a few people casually, the duel decks or clash packs are actually a decent starting point. These are a pack of 2 themed decks that are designed to be played against each other and are fairly well balanced in power. You can split the cost with a friend and each of you takes 1 deck and you can duel against each other and have fun that way (hence duel deck pack!). And you can use those decks as a starting point and refine them by slowly adding in new cards you collect! You might be able to find some of the older ones on clearance at your local game store. There's also some sweet alternate art cards in them too.
- Alternatively, you can pick up an Event deck. If you buy the most recent one it will always be Standard legal (i.e. all cards are legal to play in the current Standard format). Like duel decks, you can use it as a starting point to build and evolve but it has the advantage of being completely Standard legal. (Not all the cards in the duel decks are necessarily Standard Legal.)
- Have fun! Always important.
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All those discussions about Twin being OP are pretty pointless... Reminds of the ban thread on MTG Salvation which I was reading frequently some time ago before I realized I was just wasting my time...
Then again, I play Junk and have a fine Twin match-up so, maybe I'm biased 
I guess the only thing I really case about is my enjoyment of the format and I'm having a lot of fun playing Modern at my LGS.
One thing though, I feel like the complaints about the lack of control decks are somewhat justified. I absolutely loved the BUG Control list that won a SCG cause that's exactly the type of Magic I like to play. Too bad it hasn't made that big of a splash (yet?). If I can get some cheap reprints of blue staples with MM2, I'll definitely try it.
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I think the BUG deck didn't catch on too much because people either have Goyfs or Cryptics & Snapcasters. Only the people extremely invested in modern have all of those cards.
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I have been in and out of Magic since 2002. I am recently getting back in. I think Modern is a fantastic idea but I am lending my support to arguments in favour of banning Splinter Twin. I do think the card is, unfortunately, completely busted and just wrong to see in this format. It looks more like legacy than I think it should. In an ideal world, Modern, in my opinion, would resemble an extremely varied and powerful equivalent of Standard. I also would lend support to the idea of aggressively banning out things which use game breaking combos rather than solid play, high synergy and good value. Therefore I might target amulet bloom next although my understanding of the meta is extremely weak.
As a follow-on to my last sentence above, could anyone suggest any good reading to catch up on the meta of Modern and the recent banning history?
But really, when someone explained to me how ST works, I was very disappointed. It sounds like a complete jank interaction.
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On April 01 2015 09:23 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I'm thinking of getting into magic. what's the best way to get a decent deck? should I just buy one off somebody or ebay or something or what?
sorry there isnt much information here, I cant think of anything else to put.
a few things:
as a beginner constructed is much easier than limited; I would start with constructed to get an idea of the game and you only need to "know"/"understand" 60 cards - lands
later on you will explore limited and love it. Im not sure if there are more than 0,001% people out there that like constructed more than limited. Sure constructed is cool, too but limited is just so much more fun.
If you are the kind of player that sooner or later likes competetion: Visit PPTQs and FNM tournaments.
And if you feel like you are a bit confident in your skills visit Grand Prixs. It will be something you wont forget and probably love. I have been at like 10-20 GPs now and its always a blast. Funniliy enough the game itself is not the most important thing on these trips. Friends, new people you meet, sightseeing, other countries, culture, going out when u did not make day 2, ect.. so many memories and funny things.
And also a tip: When i was younger and less expierenced I sold over a span of 7-10 years cards because i wanted the money and didnt focus on constructed anymore. Dont do it unless u really really need the cash.
I might have sold cards for like 5000 $.. If i sold them now i would have gotten like 15.000 $ because half of the cards did shoot up massively in value.
So just hold on to most of your cards if you do not have a very good reason to.
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Oh and about twin:
I personally like the state of modern but IF there is something to complain almost all pros and amateur is know think it is not twin but it is the fact that there are so many "combo decks" (bloom, infect, affinity, PARTIALLY twin but its just more a control deck thany anything) and that u cant cover alls your bases vs everything. And that thus the fair decks might be disadvantaged.. dunno..
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On April 01 2015 21:34 sc4k wrote:
In an ideal world, Modern, in my opinion, would resemble an extremely varied and powerful equivalent of Standard.
I think this is an irreconcilable difference of opinion. People are kind of just split into 2 camps--those that see Modern as a more powerful version of Standard, and those that see it as a more accessible version of Legacy. There's just not going to be any consensus with the two radically different views on the direction the format should go.
I think the former is closer to WotC's intent, but the ever-growing card pool means that it will be progressively harder and harder to keep it like Standard.
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On April 01 2015 21:34 sc4k wrote:
I have been in and out of Magic since 2002. I am recently getting back in. I think Modern is a fantastic idea but I am lending my support to arguments in favour of banning Splinter Twin. I do think the card is, unfortunately, completely busted and just wrong to see in this format. It looks more like legacy than I think it should. In an ideal world, Modern, in my opinion, would resemble an extremely varied and powerful equivalent of Standard. I also would lend support to the idea of aggressively banning out things which use game breaking combos rather than solid play, high synergy and good value. Therefore I might target amulet bloom next although my understanding of the meta is extremely weak.
As a follow-on to my last sentence above, could anyone suggest any good reading to catch up on the meta of Modern and the recent banning history?
But really, when someone explained to me how ST works, I was very disappointed. It sounds like a complete jank interaction.
twin is very unlegacy esque, and modern is not at all similar to legacy(unfortunatly in my opinion, legacy is great, in legacy atleast the amount of linear combo decks is low enough that people can succeed with engine decks fairly regularly, and where alot of games are very interactive, there is a reasonable amount of variety in fair decks which i like, but this is all subjective).
However twin is the good kind of combo deck to me, you interact with it with the most common types of interaction(limiting fair deck selection the least in opponents), it packs alot of interaction and is relatively easy to interact with.
The decks that twin truely punishes are truely uninteractive linear decks, which are much more constricting in the types of interaction you can field in your fair decks against them, no solid fair deck has a mu much worse then 50/50 vs twin, and while it can still leverage the threat of combo vs most of those decks, having the combo in their deck does not make their deck better vs you then if they would have skipped the combo cards completely, its just you dont have to prepare for the great variety of i dont care what you are doing unless you have the specific hate that hits me type of decks, which lead to worse games and a less varied meta.
twin could be oppresive for a large pie shard of decks in a format where all those other linear decks do not exist, but those decks are already oppressed to much greater extent by said decks, you can't ban all combo decks, and i rather have one that preys on them and plays somewhat normal games(where tempo and card advantage are king and decisions matter) vs the rest of the format as the top dog, when i play a control deck i'd much rather play games vs twin(except for bloodmoon) then vs tron, amulet bloom, living end, scapeshift, burn etc and hope i draw my sb cards in sbed games, the gameplay vs twin atleast is deep.
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On April 01 2015 23:35 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 09:23 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I'm thinking of getting into magic. what's the best way to get a decent deck? should I just buy one off somebody or ebay or something or what?
sorry there isnt much information here, I cant think of anything else to put. a few things: as a beginner constructed is much easier than limited; I would start with constructed to get an idea of the game and you only need to "know"/"understand" 60 cards - lands later on you will explore limited and love it. Im not sure if there are more than 0,001% people out there that like constructed more than limited. Sure constructed is cool, too but limited is just so much more fun. If you are the kind of player that sooner or later likes competetion: Visit PPTQs and FNM tournaments. And if you feel like you are a bit confident in your skills visit Grand Prixs. It will be something you wont forget and probably love. I have been at like 10-20 GPs now and its always a blast. Funniliy enough the game itself is not the most important thing on these trips. Friends, new people you meet, sightseeing, other countries, culture, going out when u did not make day 2, ect.. so many memories and funny things. And also a tip: When i was younger and less expierenced I sold over a span of 7-10 years cards because i wanted the money and didnt focus on constructed anymore. Dont do it unless u really really need the cash. I might have sold cards for like 5000 $.. If i sold them now i would have gotten like 15.000 $ because half of the cards did shoot up massively in value. So just hold on to most of your cards if you do not have a very good reason to.
most people i know like constructed better(me not included, i like both but limited a little bit more)
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I mean, I highly prefer constructed but $$$ so whenever I play it's limited XD
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In my experience, the issue with trying to interact with Twin is that they have one-mana protection (Dispel) which allows them to go off very safely with 4 mana during your end step. Unless you have multiple Mana Leaks in your hand, you're completely dead to end step Exarch -> untap Twin. Cryptic doesn't leave up enough mana to beat Dispel, and if you have Remand they just put it back in their hand and threaten again next turn. As far as 1-mana removal, Bolt does nothing against Exarch, so it has to be Path or Dismember, things which not every deck wants to play.
The meta-answer to most combo decks is to just apply pressure. However, it's very hard to be proactive when the deck plays almost completely at instant speed and threatens to kill you every turn after 4. You have to be able to put up threats on turns 1 and 2, and then hold up multiple pieces of disruption to stop them. Traditional aggro decks are usually unable to do this unless they get the nut double Path draw, and slower decks can't get the pressure out in time. Pretty much the only deck thats that can consistently do this are Delver and BGx (but only because Abrupt Decay is uncounterable, otherwise BGx would get wrecked too).
Delver and BGx are T1 for a reason. Their proactive plans are fairly strong against the entire format. However, I think that there would be room in the format for slower decks that can beat Delver/BGx if Twin wasn't a thing. The other combo decks in the format all require more cards to go off, both in hand and in the deck. This means that not only are they either slower or less consistent, but they universally have less answers in their deck for your plan. Midrange decks have a shot against Storm/Living End/Titan/Goryo/Pod but Twin is pretty much impossible if you don't have Abrupt Decay.
As for comparing Modern to Legacy, Twin would be a fair combo deck in legacy. Too fair in fact. But Legacy has way more ways to deal with an instant creature mana-efficiently than Modern, including the obvious Force of Will. I just feel like the card pool in Modern is too restrictive for decks to be able to beat Twin, outside of the aforementioned Abrupt Decay. Fuck, I need to buy some Tarmogoyfs.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On April 01 2015 21:34 sc4k wrote:
But really, when someone explained to me how ST works, I was very disappointed. It sounds like a complete jank interaction.
Uh, Twin is a pretty simple but effective combo? It's nothing on the level of 40-land-nothing-below-3-mana-cost Seismic Swans or Turn 2 Goryo Griselbrand. Jank is not a word I would use to describe it lol
Are you just hopping on the Twin hate train because you personally don't like it? Banning should be a last resort, not because you just personally dislike something. It's not a game breaking combo. That sort of stuff belongs to cards like Tolarian Academy.
Twin is also completely not something Legacy-esque. Have you played Legacy before? If you want to talk about combo, Legacy is about cheating Emrakul into play, or locking someone out of the game with Iona, Shield of Emeria or Jin-Gitaxias Turn 2 or something. I assure you, there are far more ways to deal with a Pestermite.
On April 02 2015 02:40 Uranium wrote:
Delver and BGx are T1 for a reason.
Delver has not been Tier 1 since the banning of Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time. In fact its recent strong showings in tournaments and stuff has basically been recent. And by recent I mean the last week recent. It's been non-existent at the last few Pro-Tours and Grand Prix.
On April 02 2015 02:40 Uranium wrote:
I just feel like the card pool in Modern is too restrictive for decks to be able to beat Twin, outside of the aforementioned Abrupt Decay.
Rending Volley, Combust, Illness in the Ranks, Rakdos Charm, Celestial Purge, Slaughter Games, Runed Halo, Suppression Field, Torpor Orb, Linvala Keeper of Secret, Ensnaring Bridge, Choke, Sudden Death, Spellskite, Counterflux, Flashfreeze, Phyrexian Revoker, Dismember, I haven't even started on all the Enchantment hate like Nature's Claim yet.
The Modern card pool is pretty big.
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The fact that a bunch of relatively narrow sideboard hate for a deck exists doesn't mean that it isn't broken. You had Sowing Salt, Fulminator Mage, Blood Moon, etc. for Cloudpost, Rule of Law, Thalia, Thorn of Amethyst, Mindbreak Trap, etc. for Storm, Stony Silence, Rule of Law, Thalia, Eidolon of Rhetoric for Eggs.
All of the above are still banned.
I know you're not making that argument, but apparently it bears repeating.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Cloud Post was banned because it was insanely good for producing mana and was part of the massive ban very early into the Modern format where loads of stuff got banned rather than being singled out. Tron still exists.
Seething Song was banned under the Turn 4 rule of Modern.
Second Sunrise was banned because its turns took too long.
The amount of hate available wasn't a part of any of these decisions. Narrow but good hate is also why decks like Burn and Affinity are still around. People complain, sure, but they also do something about it.
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EPT
