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On January 26 2013 05:50 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 05:46 JingleHell wrote:
And are you only allowed to have a single guild mechanic in a deck? Like, what if a black creature with extort is otherwise pretty good for a deck that isn't the black/white guild? Can it be used? Yep you can use it, there are no restrictions like that. Guilds have no rules associated with them with the exception of the prerelease packs (and there, the only thing guild affiliation does is determine what can and cannot be in that 1 pack).
So, if I'm guessing correctly by the symbol I'm seeing a lot of in the guild related cards, the one that's like half and half two colors mana symbol, but just one circle divided in half, if it's say, R/B, you can pay the cost with a red or black mana? Or do they take some specialized R/B hybrid mana.
Because if there's 2-color mana, it seems like it would really simplify multi-color decks.
Sorry, I really am REALLY new, and it seems most of the stuff I've been reading is either slightly out of date, or less interested in these concepts.
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No, you can have several, but you get 5 boosters and a guild specific pack where you only get cards from your specific guild, so if you choose for example orzhov, you get a pack that always contains a treasury thrull, an orzhov guildgate and 14 other cards, that will either be black, white, black/white or colourless.
But yes, if I for example pull a crypt ghast when I've chosen dimir, I'll still be using it because it's an incredibly good card, even if it's part of orzhov.
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On January 26 2013 05:14 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 05:07 Sn0_Man wrote:On January 26 2013 05:00 JingleHell wrote:I don't understand the guilds yet  They are just features of the current set. Future sets will be themed around different lore and gameplay mechanics. (Magic cards are released as part of sets, which are in turn part of blocks. Generally there are 3 sets to a block, and sets within a block share cohesive storyline and themes, although each set is somewhat distinct mechanically). Return to Ravnica is feeding off of a previous Block called "Ravnica: City of Guilds" which established the lore of Ravnica and it's 10 guilds (all 10 possible pairs of colours). Each pair has a name and a lore associated with the features of their colours interacting. Gatecrash, the 2nd set in the Return to Ravnica block, features 5 guilds aka colour pairs: Boros (R/W), Orzhov (B/W), Dimir (U/B) (U = Blue btw), Simic (U/G) and Gruul (R/G). At the prerelease for Gatecrash, you may choose a guild to align yourself and you will be given a special pack (available only at the prerelease) that includes extra cards from that guild. TL;DR: Guilds are NOT core magic concepts, at all Wait, so where's the fucking pie? Now I'm hungry, you people are tummy cockteases. :'( Why are all the nummy pastries a lie?
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Color_Pie
Long story short(er), basically each color has a core concept unique to it except think of the borders less as distinct cuts but rather more of a blur where each color can borrow from any other.
A little introduction before I get into it...
Card tropes is what I refer to as common card design elements, when people say Edict, they think target player sacrifices a creature, named after Diabolic Edict. There are some design patterns that get carried throughout Magic's history, cantrips are 1 mana spells attached with a draw a card clause to it. These tropes exist because of the color pie identity
For example, dealing with creatures can come in many different forms based on colors:
White usually leaves the creature in play but debilitates it in some fashion usually through Enchantments, Pacifism is an example.
Black usually kills the creature in some way, usually directly like Murder, setting the creature's toughness to 0 or below like Tragic Slip, or through sacrifice like Devour Flesh.
Green usually has a bigger or "better" creature, pump spells like Giant Growth to make their smaller creatures larger, or more recently the "fight" mechanic where 2 creatures just fight it out like Prey Upon. Since Green has the "best" (read: bigger) creatures for mana cost, they rely on creature-creature interactions, much like nature.
Blue usually bounces the creature meaning return the creature to their hand (Unsummon) or on top of the library (Grasp of Phantoms) or by transforming them and leaving something else behind like Pongify or the more recent Rapid Hybridization.
Red usually kills the creature through damage which is different than Black's destroy/sacrifice/-x-x like Searing Spear.
This is just a simple (if you can call it that) example of how different colors deal with the common problem of opposing creatures. When you start mixing colors, you get combination of colors's identity so you can do a mixture of things to varying degrees.
Choosing guilds at pre-release in the simple example of handling creatures is choosing what kind of cards you can expect MORE of. Remember it's not an (entirely) exclusive system where only colors get something. There are some things that certain colors CANNOT handle at all or have a very difficult time in dealing with, same goes for card mechanics.
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Those are called "Hybrid" and are fairly new/rare although they are pretty popular so WotC keeps bringing it back in small quantities.
Hybrid mana symbols, as you guessed, can be paid for with either of the two colours that they represent.
For the purposes of colour, they count as both. Aka Rakdos Shred Freak is 2 colours (black and red) even though both mono-black and mono-red decks are perfectly capable of casting him.
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Extort seems very very slow. It's weakness is not its effect, rather, it's the frequency at which you will be benefiting from that effect. Setting up for a late game where every card you cast is a super Duskhunter Bat is cool but I just feel like I will get run over by Gruul a lot.
It's not like Azorious, which was weaker card for card than Rakdos, but was just as competitive.
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On January 26 2013 05:59 Sn0_Man wrote:
Those are called "Hybrid" and are fairly new/rare although they are pretty popular so WotC keeps bringing it back in small quantities.
Hybrid mana symbols, as you guessed, can be paid for with either of the two colours that they represent.
For the purposes of colour, they count as both. Aka Rakdos Shred Freak is 2 colours (black and red) even though both mono-black and mono-red decks are perfectly capable of casting him.
Hmm, so, I presume, if you have "Protection from X", Hybrid is screwed by either color being X?
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Hey guys, I just downloaded the client and will try the free trial. It's 10 dollars to create a full account and then everything costs tickets (money)? I've heard constructed and pauper is the best way to get good value, but drafting is probably the most fun imo. Can you sell your cards if you don't want to keep them? if you find any mythics is it usually a good idea to just take them to sell even if you don't need them? I want to get into MTGO, but the investment it takes seems substantial. I also know the quality of play is pretty damn high as well.
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I tried the free online drafting, and made a deck, but I don't really know what to do with it. Is there any way to play this game for free online or no?
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On January 26 2013 06:06 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 05:59 Sn0_Man wrote:
Those are called "Hybrid" and are fairly new/rare although they are pretty popular so WotC keeps bringing it back in small quantities.
Hybrid mana symbols, as you guessed, can be paid for with either of the two colours that they represent.
For the purposes of colour, they count as both. Aka Rakdos Shred Freak is 2 colours (black and red) even though both mono-black and mono-red decks are perfectly capable of casting him. Hmm, so, I presume, if you have "Protection from X", Hybrid is screwed by either color being X?
Yap. You got it. 
On January 26 2013 05:59 slyboogie wrote:
Extort seems very very slow. It's weakness is not its effect, rather, it's the frequency at which you will be benefiting from that effect. Setting up for a late game where every card you cast is a super Duskhunter Bat is cool but I just feel like I will get run over by Gruul a lot.
It's not like Azorious, which was weaker card for card than Rakdos, but was just as competitive.
That's probably what balances Extort out (though I still think it's incredibly powerful). It's a lifelink for a white or black mana, but you have to have the mana free, you can only use it once per spell per permanent with Extort, and you have to keep casting spells in order to trigger it.
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On January 26 2013 06:06 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 05:59 Sn0_Man wrote:
Those are called "Hybrid" and are fairly new/rare although they are pretty popular so WotC keeps bringing it back in small quantities.
Hybrid mana symbols, as you guessed, can be paid for with either of the two colours that they represent.
For the purposes of colour, they count as both. Aka Rakdos Shred Freak is 2 colours (black and red) even though both mono-black and mono-red decks are perfectly capable of casting him. Hmm, so, I presume, if you have "Protection from X", Hybrid is screwed by either color being X?
Yes. The game really does try to be intuitive.
On January 26 2013 06:07 Serpico wrote:
Hey guys, I just downloaded the client and will try the free trial. It's 10 dollars to create a full account and then everything costs tickets (money)? I've heard constructed and pauper is the best way to get good value, but drafting is probably the most fun imo. Can you sell your cards if you don't want to keep them? if you find any mythics is it usually a good idea to just take them to sell even if you don't need them? I want to get into MTGO, but the investment it takes seems substantial. I also know the quality of play is pretty damn high as well.
Tickets are purchaseable for a $1 each so treat them like a dollar. Drafting is indeed (imo) the most fun. It is definitely possible to "go infinite" aka sustain your drafting based upon winnings from drafting, with no more monetary input. However, you do have to be quite good to do that.
Mythics are not necessarily worth much. A site like www.mtgotraders.com is an easy way to quickly look up the approximate value of a mythic while drafting. It is up to you to decide whether a mythic worth, say, 1 ticket is more important to you than another card that might help you win more packs. Note that if a website is selling it for 4.50, you might have to get lucky to sell it for 4 tickets, etc etc.
The investment to play MTGO is undeniably substantial. Magic is an expensive hobby.
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On January 26 2013 06:11 kmillz wrote:
I tried the free online drafting, and made a deck, but I don't really know what to do with it. Is there any way to play this game for free online or no?
Not really, no.
Actually, you can play some example decks for free if you download the MTG Online client I think.
There is also a program called "Magic Workstation" that lets you make decks and play with them against others, but it doesn't have much of a "rules engine" to speak of so you kinda have to have a pretty good grasp of how to play before you can use it.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On January 26 2013 06:20 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 06:11 kmillz wrote:
I tried the free online drafting, and made a deck, but I don't really know what to do with it. Is there any way to play this game for free online or no? Not really, no. Actually, you can play some example decks for free if you download the MTG Online client I think. There is also a program called "Magic Workstation" that lets you make decks and play with them against others, but it doesn't have much of a "rules engine" to speak of so you kinda have to have a pretty good grasp of how to play before you can use it.
There's also Cockatrice as well
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On January 26 2013 06:13 cLAN.Anax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 06:06 JingleHell wrote:On January 26 2013 05:59 Sn0_Man wrote:
Those are called "Hybrid" and are fairly new/rare although they are pretty popular so WotC keeps bringing it back in small quantities.
Hybrid mana symbols, as you guessed, can be paid for with either of the two colours that they represent.
For the purposes of colour, they count as both. Aka Rakdos Shred Freak is 2 colours (black and red) even though both mono-black and mono-red decks are perfectly capable of casting him. Hmm, so, I presume, if you have "Protection from X", Hybrid is screwed by either color being X? Yap. You got it. Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 05:59 slyboogie wrote:
Extort seems very very slow. It's weakness is not its effect, rather, it's the frequency at which you will be benefiting from that effect. Setting up for a late game where every card you cast is a super Duskhunter Bat is cool but I just feel like I will get run over by Gruul a lot.
It's not like Azorious, which was weaker card for card than Rakdos, but was just as competitive. That's probably what balances Extort out (though I still think it's incredibly powerful). It's a lifelink for a white or black mana, but you have to have the mana free, you can only use it once per spell per permanent with Extort, and you have to keep casting spells in order to trigger it.
White and black have some really scary 1 and 2 mana spells, especially if your tactic is to get a big volume of Extort.
Smite, cast a spell, and destroy a creature that you blocked. 1 mana. Shielded passage, 2 mana, prevent all damage that would be taken by target creature, especially if you have a way to force them to go all-in on a block (didn't I read about spells that did that somewhere?)
But I AM a nublet, I have no idea if cheesy ideas like that work.
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You have a pretty good grasp on the power of extort, and what cards it works well with. However, having to pay additional mana is a very real cost. A 2/2 for 2 mana is an OK creature, playable in some formats, not so much in others. However, a 2/2 for 3 mana that drains them for 1 really isn't good. Basically, adding 1 to the cost of a card in exchange for draining the opponent for one isn't inherently a good deal. However, the ability to do it every time you play a spell, without costing cards in and of itself, is quite powerful. How powerful? well, we need to get a chance to play with it before we can really say.
Some of the other mechanics are equally hard to evaluate. Radiance, for example, relies on you attacking with at least 3 creatures. Often, this will end up being a sacrificial attack where at least one of your creatures is suiciding in order to trigger the Radiance, since otherwise you would need 3 creatures bigger than their largest (and Red/White usually has smallish creatures). Obviously the Radiance triggers need to be powerful to counteract this, but it is hard to judge what is powerful but not broken without playing with the cards ourselves. A lot of people seem to think boros is the best, judging by the surveys etc I've read.
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On January 26 2013 06:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
You have a pretty good grasp on the power of extort, and what cards it works well with. However, having to pay additional mana is a very real cost. A 2/2 for 2 mana is an OK creature, playable in some formats, not so much in others. However, a 2/2 for 3 mana that drains them for 1 really isn't good. Basically, adding 1 to the cost of a card in exchange for draining the opponent for one isn't inherently a good deal. However, the ability to do it every time you play a spell, without costing cards in and of itself, is quite powerful. How powerful? well, we need to get a chance to play with it before we can really say.
Some of the other mechanics are equally hard to evaluate. Radiance, for example, relies on you attacking with at least 3 creatures. Often, this will end up being a sacrificial attack where at least one of your creatures is suiciding in order to trigger the Radiance, since otherwise you would need 3 creatures bigger than their largest (and Red/White usually has smallish creatures). Obviously the Radiance triggers need to be powerful to counteract this, but it is hard to judge what is powerful but not broken without playing with the cards ourselves. A lot of people seem to think boros is the best, judging by the surveys etc I've read.
Battalion you mean? Pretty obvious you just throw out Captain's Call, Attended Knight, Crusader of Odric, Captain of the Watch, and Odric, Master Tactician.
Put a pisston of creature tokens on the field, buff them all, add in a guy who directly derives his power from the number of creatures, and then, just for shits and grins, decide how it all gets blocked.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On January 26 2013 06:48 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 06:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
You have a pretty good grasp on the power of extort, and what cards it works well with. However, having to pay additional mana is a very real cost. A 2/2 for 2 mana is an OK creature, playable in some formats, not so much in others. However, a 2/2 for 3 mana that drains them for 1 really isn't good. Basically, adding 1 to the cost of a card in exchange for draining the opponent for one isn't inherently a good deal. However, the ability to do it every time you play a spell, without costing cards in and of itself, is quite powerful. How powerful? well, we need to get a chance to play with it before we can really say.
Some of the other mechanics are equally hard to evaluate. Radiance, for example, relies on you attacking with at least 3 creatures. Often, this will end up being a sacrificial attack where at least one of your creatures is suiciding in order to trigger the Radiance, since otherwise you would need 3 creatures bigger than their largest (and Red/White usually has smallish creatures). Obviously the Radiance triggers need to be powerful to counteract this, but it is hard to judge what is powerful but not broken without playing with the cards ourselves. A lot of people seem to think boros is the best, judging by the surveys etc I've read. Battalion you mean? Pretty obvious you just throw out Captain's Call, Attended Knight, Crusader of Odric, Captain of the Watch, and Odric, Master Tactician. Put a pisston of creature tokens on the field, buff them all, add in a guy who directly derives his power from the number of creatures, and then, just for shits and grins, decide how it all gets blocked.
Radiance was the Boros mechanics from original Ravnica.
If you overextend so hard, you get hurt hard by board wipe, like Terminus or Supreme Judgement.
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On January 26 2013 06:53 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 06:48 JingleHell wrote:On January 26 2013 06:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
You have a pretty good grasp on the power of extort, and what cards it works well with. However, having to pay additional mana is a very real cost. A 2/2 for 2 mana is an OK creature, playable in some formats, not so much in others. However, a 2/2 for 3 mana that drains them for 1 really isn't good. Basically, adding 1 to the cost of a card in exchange for draining the opponent for one isn't inherently a good deal. However, the ability to do it every time you play a spell, without costing cards in and of itself, is quite powerful. How powerful? well, we need to get a chance to play with it before we can really say.
Some of the other mechanics are equally hard to evaluate. Radiance, for example, relies on you attacking with at least 3 creatures. Often, this will end up being a sacrificial attack where at least one of your creatures is suiciding in order to trigger the Radiance, since otherwise you would need 3 creatures bigger than their largest (and Red/White usually has smallish creatures). Obviously the Radiance triggers need to be powerful to counteract this, but it is hard to judge what is powerful but not broken without playing with the cards ourselves. A lot of people seem to think boros is the best, judging by the surveys etc I've read. Battalion you mean? Pretty obvious you just throw out Captain's Call, Attended Knight, Crusader of Odric, Captain of the Watch, and Odric, Master Tactician. Put a pisston of creature tokens on the field, buff them all, add in a guy who directly derives his power from the number of creatures, and then, just for shits and grins, decide how it all gets blocked. Radiance was the Boros mechanics from original Ravnica. If you overextend so hard, you get hurt hard by board wipe, like Terminus or Supreme Judgement.
Fair enough. So you'd also want some sort of counterspell-ability for that? And you'd still be kind of a one trick pony, but it'd be kind of funny. I figure it'll still be a couple of weeks before I'm starting to see all the angles reliably. Right now I'm trying to get enough of a feel for the basics to not feel like a tart trying to go ground-up with a deck.
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On January 26 2013 06:48 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 06:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
You have a pretty good grasp on the power of extort, and what cards it works well with. However, having to pay additional mana is a very real cost. A 2/2 for 2 mana is an OK creature, playable in some formats, not so much in others. However, a 2/2 for 3 mana that drains them for 1 really isn't good. Basically, adding 1 to the cost of a card in exchange for draining the opponent for one isn't inherently a good deal. However, the ability to do it every time you play a spell, without costing cards in and of itself, is quite powerful. How powerful? well, we need to get a chance to play with it before we can really say.
Some of the other mechanics are equally hard to evaluate. Radiance, for example, relies on you attacking with at least 3 creatures. Often, this will end up being a sacrificial attack where at least one of your creatures is suiciding in order to trigger the Radiance, since otherwise you would need 3 creatures bigger than their largest (and Red/White usually has smallish creatures). Obviously the Radiance triggers need to be powerful to counteract this, but it is hard to judge what is powerful but not broken without playing with the cards ourselves. A lot of people seem to think boros is the best, judging by the surveys etc I've read. Battalion you mean? Pretty obvious you just throw out Captain's Call, Attended Knight, Crusader of Odric, Captain of the Watch, and Odric, Master Tactician. Put a pisston of creature tokens on the field, buff them all, add in a guy who directly derives his power from the number of creatures, and then, just for shits and grins, decide how it all gets blocked.
Er, whoops. Yeah battalion. Radiance was the boros mechanic in original ravnica my bad.
Anyways, you are correct as to how you would abuse the battalion mechanic in constructed, but in constructed you are very vulnerable to things like Terminus and Supreme Verdict. Playing out 4 creatures and losing them all to 1 card is very disheartening (and makes you lose on the spot usually).
I was more talking about limited play anyway. Constructed is hard for me to comment on very much since I see everything from a very jaded perspective. If it isn't viable in tournaments (and odric decks certainly qualifies under: not viable) then I don't think about it too much 
Limited = Sealed deck and Draft formats btw, where you play with cards you open out of packs as opposed to your collection at large.
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On January 26 2013 06:56 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 06:48 JingleHell wrote:On January 26 2013 06:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
You have a pretty good grasp on the power of extort, and what cards it works well with. However, having to pay additional mana is a very real cost. A 2/2 for 2 mana is an OK creature, playable in some formats, not so much in others. However, a 2/2 for 3 mana that drains them for 1 really isn't good. Basically, adding 1 to the cost of a card in exchange for draining the opponent for one isn't inherently a good deal. However, the ability to do it every time you play a spell, without costing cards in and of itself, is quite powerful. How powerful? well, we need to get a chance to play with it before we can really say.
Some of the other mechanics are equally hard to evaluate. Radiance, for example, relies on you attacking with at least 3 creatures. Often, this will end up being a sacrificial attack where at least one of your creatures is suiciding in order to trigger the Radiance, since otherwise you would need 3 creatures bigger than their largest (and Red/White usually has smallish creatures). Obviously the Radiance triggers need to be powerful to counteract this, but it is hard to judge what is powerful but not broken without playing with the cards ourselves. A lot of people seem to think boros is the best, judging by the surveys etc I've read. Battalion you mean? Pretty obvious you just throw out Captain's Call, Attended Knight, Crusader of Odric, Captain of the Watch, and Odric, Master Tactician. Put a pisston of creature tokens on the field, buff them all, add in a guy who directly derives his power from the number of creatures, and then, just for shits and grins, decide how it all gets blocked. Er, whoops. Yeah battalion. Radiance was the boros mechanic in original ravnica my bad. Anyways, you are correct as to how you would abuse the battalion mechanic in constructed, but in constructed you are very vulnerable to things like Terminus and Supreme Verdict. Playing out 4 creatures and losing them all to 1 card is very disheartening (and makes you lose on the spot usually). I was more talking about limited play anyway. Constructed is hard for me to comment on very much since I see everything from a very jaded perspective. If it isn't viable in tournaments (and odric decks certainly qualifies under: not viable) then I don't think about it too much Limited = Sealed deck and Draft formats btw, where you play with cards you open out of packs as opposed to your collection at large.
Yeah, if you're not getting a reliable knowledge of what you're going to get, you're not going to stack up some crazy combo like that, especially reliably.
Having started with the deck I did, I think I'd just vomit at the mechanic. I'ma just call it unExalted.
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On January 26 2013 06:58 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 06:56 Sn0_Man wrote:On January 26 2013 06:48 JingleHell wrote:On January 26 2013 06:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
You have a pretty good grasp on the power of extort, and what cards it works well with. However, having to pay additional mana is a very real cost. A 2/2 for 2 mana is an OK creature, playable in some formats, not so much in others. However, a 2/2 for 3 mana that drains them for 1 really isn't good. Basically, adding 1 to the cost of a card in exchange for draining the opponent for one isn't inherently a good deal. However, the ability to do it every time you play a spell, without costing cards in and of itself, is quite powerful. How powerful? well, we need to get a chance to play with it before we can really say.
Some of the other mechanics are equally hard to evaluate. Radiance, for example, relies on you attacking with at least 3 creatures. Often, this will end up being a sacrificial attack where at least one of your creatures is suiciding in order to trigger the Radiance, since otherwise you would need 3 creatures bigger than their largest (and Red/White usually has smallish creatures). Obviously the Radiance triggers need to be powerful to counteract this, but it is hard to judge what is powerful but not broken without playing with the cards ourselves. A lot of people seem to think boros is the best, judging by the surveys etc I've read. Battalion you mean? Pretty obvious you just throw out Captain's Call, Attended Knight, Crusader of Odric, Captain of the Watch, and Odric, Master Tactician. Put a pisston of creature tokens on the field, buff them all, add in a guy who directly derives his power from the number of creatures, and then, just for shits and grins, decide how it all gets blocked. Er, whoops. Yeah battalion. Radiance was the boros mechanic in original ravnica my bad. Anyways, you are correct as to how you would abuse the battalion mechanic in constructed, but in constructed you are very vulnerable to things like Terminus and Supreme Verdict. Playing out 4 creatures and losing them all to 1 card is very disheartening (and makes you lose on the spot usually). I was more talking about limited play anyway. Constructed is hard for me to comment on very much since I see everything from a very jaded perspective. If it isn't viable in tournaments (and odric decks certainly qualifies under: not viable) then I don't think about it too much Limited = Sealed deck and Draft formats btw, where you play with cards you open out of packs as opposed to your collection at large. Yeah, if you're not getting a reliable knowledge of what you're going to get, you're not going to stack up some crazy combo like that, especially reliably. Having started with the deck I did, I think I'd just vomit at the mechanic. I'ma just call it unExalted.
Pretty much.
Note that both mechanics are very weak from a constructed point of view. Exalted is weak because in constructed people can play a LOT of instant-speed removal that basically negates attacking with a single creature (since they only have to kill one to make your attack that turn pointless). Battalion is weak because you have to over-extend to maintain a critical mass that can then all be killed by 1 sweeper (again, terminus and supreme verdict).
Limited decks, however, are in general starved for removal and especially board wipes, so these mechanics are much more powerful and appealing there, at the cost of you not being able to assemble the really good interactions very often.
Edit: You never mentioned if you had any intention of going to a prerelease event this weekend?
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EPT
