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evolute
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada209 Posts
September 06 2011 03:58 GMT
#1901
On September 06 2011 04:33 Josri wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2011 19:34 Manit0u wrote:
Yeah, after seeing some of the GW2 footage I kinda regret getting SWTOR pre-order as I probably won't use it anyway...

Some1 told me that you could change SWTOR preorder to a GW2 preorder. Might want to look in to that if I were you


Honestly if you can afford it you should be getting both. SWTOR has a great storyline, and GW2 is a one time payment game; no reason you can't enjoy them at the same time.
Norada
Profile Joined August 2010
China482 Posts
September 06 2011 04:46 GMT
#1902
On September 06 2011 07:12 Senx wrote:
Man I really hope this game develops the same kind of community and epic DYNAMIC non-instanced pvp that DAoC had and still has.

I want this to be my new DAoC so badly, played that game for about 9-10 years and I've been dissapointed by the lack of attention and care developers put in their pvp systems.


I talked to izzy one time about what made daoc good since i too played it for about 4-5 years. It seems a lot of anet have played daoc and know it was the best game for world pvp. wvwvw is basically the same as rvr, except the world youre facing will be switched every 6weeks or so which is a good thing. New people to face and your server gets a rep, pretty badass imo.
irninja
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1220 Posts
September 06 2011 13:49 GMT
#1903
On September 06 2011 13:46 Norada wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2011 07:12 Senx wrote:
Man I really hope this game develops the same kind of community and epic DYNAMIC non-instanced pvp that DAoC had and still has.

I want this to be my new DAoC so badly, played that game for about 9-10 years and I've been dissapointed by the lack of attention and care developers put in their pvp systems.


I talked to izzy one time about what made daoc good since i too played it for about 4-5 years. It seems a lot of anet have played daoc and know it was the best game for world pvp. wvwvw is basically the same as rvr, except the world youre facing will be switched every 6weeks or so which is a good thing. New people to face and your server gets a rep, pretty badass imo.



Played warhammer as a archmage very extensively myself. Saw the benefits, which led to the monotonous drawbacks. What exactly did DOAC have that was any different? I never touched the game but hear people talk about its glory days.


www.teamlegacy.net | MMO junkies
Senx
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Sweden5901 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-06 19:02:18
September 06 2011 15:33 GMT
#1904
On September 06 2011 22:49 irninja wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2011 13:46 Norada wrote:
On September 06 2011 07:12 Senx wrote:
Man I really hope this game develops the same kind of community and epic DYNAMIC non-instanced pvp that DAoC had and still has.

I want this to be my new DAoC so badly, played that game for about 9-10 years and I've been dissapointed by the lack of attention and care developers put in their pvp systems.


I talked to izzy one time about what made daoc good since i too played it for about 4-5 years. It seems a lot of anet have played daoc and know it was the best game for world pvp. wvwvw is basically the same as rvr, except the world youre facing will be switched every 6weeks or so which is a good thing. New people to face and your server gets a rep, pretty badass imo.



Played warhammer as a archmage very extensively myself. Saw the benefits, which led to the monotonous drawbacks. What exactly did DOAC have that was any different? I never touched the game but hear people talk about its glory days.




Wall of epic text:
+ Show Spoiler +
Basic Realm vs Realm
So there's a couple of things.First off each realm were vastly different in terms of lore and classes - despite having as many as 16 classes per realm -- they were all unique in their own right.

Hibernia (Celtic lore) vs Midgard (Nordic viking lore) vs Albion (Britain lore). This made you feel like you belonged to your realm and that the enemies were easily noticeable.

Everyone, regardless of level could help out in RvR combat.

There were 3 realms, so if one realm would dominate the others 2 could help eachother out either through gank groups or just massive zergs. Remember this is all non-instanced non-balanced PvP - FULLY Dynamic and ever changing. There's no reset button, there's no developer that decides to restart the entire RvR zone.

The game is driven by its players and their actions.

This balance also ties into the combat, siege and ganking capabilities that was unique for each realm which i'll bring up later.

Can't stress how important this is to keep pvp fresh and intresting - in essence you never TRULY know what to expect beyond that hill or inside that keep. Free information is bad for any pvp focused mmo, it removed the games longetivity and leads to stale and boring gameplay.

How the RvR map was layed out (Pre-NF expansion)

So each realm had the ability to port to an outpost keep for each enemy realm. Their own realms RvR zone was on the outskirts of their pve world.

This made it feel like you were entering enemy teritory - this is their land. This isn't some neutral fighting ground like Arathi Basin.

These zones were massive and epic but thanks to speed classes for each realm (Skald for Midgard, Bard for Hibernia and Minstrel for Albion) -- were able to travel through these zones with ease.


Community and its importance
Chat was important to communicate with your realm in order to capture/defend keeps, fight groups, zergs and to capture realm relics. The main source of intel besides your keep being on fire on the map was the chat system.

Deathmessages in chat - basicly this told you that one guy of your realm was killed by an enemy player and where; Bob has been killed by John in Pennine Mountains. Each message was color coded too - green for hibernian death messages, blue for mid and red for albion.

This would create suspense, how many are actually in pennine? What is going on over there? Will our keep be taken by the enemy realm? Maybe its just a stealther, I recognize that name. You see the sense of community in DAoC is still unmatched in the mmo world.

New Frontiers ( a pvp expansion ) destroyed this concept of intel and scouts by adding flaming swords to areas on the minimap where fighting was occuring.
---

You played on ONE server, so you had to be social and willing to work together to succeed in RvR and you were constantly fighting against or with the same people so it added another layer of fun. You started to know the people you were playing with and against.

Take this scenario for example: you just had a forum chat with an enemy midgard player about that failed relic capture yesterday and now you're fighting him again the next day. You don't have that kind of interaction in modern mmos. vnboards was a big part of DAoCs success as a community focused mmorpg.

Camelotherald.com which was Mythics own site to keep track of stats and current RvR progress was also huge - you could look up any servers realm map and see the ongoing fight and who owned what relic or which guilds owned what keep.

You could also look up stats on any player or guild, their crafting profession, realm level, realm points gained last week, last month or total. It was just a massive information hub.

Relics and Keeps
So this was also a critical part of DAoC.

If a realm captured x amount of enemy keeps it would unlock the gates to the relic keep of which a relic was held. It would then need to captured and taken the entire way back to your own frontier, your own realm and placed in your keep to be able to give its effect. This was dangerous and requires an entire raid or zerg and often involved 100vs100 battles. Epic indeed.

If a relic would be captured it would give global damage bonuses to the entire realm that has it -- this was obviously big and made the RvR struggle relevant and important unlike any other pvp out there.

Keeps would offer experience bonuses and guild points. Keeps would also display your guilds emblem on both the keep itself and the guards roaming it.

Combat

This is huge, this is for me the single best feature of DAoC as a PvP game and also its downfall because it has a steeper learning curve and requires more of you as a team than most other mmos.

Hard CC

In the early days of DAoC, the knowledge of how to properly use CC was limited but as guild groups such as Free RPS and Lagged Again that with just 8 people killed entire zergs alone it started to appear to people that if you're organized and know how to work together you can achieve wonders against a disorganized group of people. This turned alot of people off - the people who weren't willing to get competitive or learn from their misstakes.

The CC time was a bit over the top at this time, this was before CC reduction through patches and items/ realm abilities purging or blocking the CC.

But it still remains important to this very day. The top groups in DAoC today are known for their ability to respect CC and cycle through CC immunities (Root, Mezmerize and stun).

A good player on a cc class (Healer/Sorc/Bard) would instinctively know when the enemies root immunity is about to wear off and can then re-root a target. Of course there are spells and realm abilities that cures these effects as ive previously mentioned. Its balanced that way.

Here are some videos that display the most famous oldschool DAoC groups in action:
+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler +


Here's a more modern take on a good DAoC grp - notice the difference in level of organization and CC control:

+ Show Spoiler +


A mid grp heavily based around 3 casters and just wiping zergs fast:
+ Show Spoiler +
Watch from 3 minute in:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2687587449885473121


Hard Interrupt system

If you as a caster or support get interrupted you get interrupted and you dont keep casting your spell like in WoW. This demanded proper positioning and help from your team to "peel" off of you. The melee tanks would use snare or stun on the enemy or the casters would CC them off of you so you can heal your team.

This encouraged organization and teamwork. Fights where people jump around like donkeys on top of eachother pressing their insta spells is bad gameplay in my eyes.

Of course there were realm abilities that allowed you to go cast through normal interrupts (not hard CC like stun or mez). I will touch on ways to cast through interruption next.

Realm Abilities

Another form to progress your character after reaching max level - massive variety and additional strenght to be had for your character.

You get realm points for killing enemy players or capturing keeps/relics. With these realm points you advance in realm levels and each realm level accounts to one point to spend in the specialized Realm abilities.

Purge - you purge alll CC spells.
Quickcast - cast one non-interrupted spell every 30 seconds.
Master of concentration - all casts are uninterruptable for 30 seconds.
Ignore pain - heals yourself for a large %.
Divine Intervention - heal battery - heals your group automaticly when taking damage for the amout in the battery.

Add to that passive that adds to your base stats such as dextery ( cast speed ) strenght ( melee damage ), constitution ( health ) etc etc.

Take a look for yourself http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/realm-abilities

There's so much more to the game than what I mentioned, but I tried to bring up the key points of the pvp system.


My biggest worry about GW2 is that the pvp system will lack purpose, I dont care if we capture this random windmill area or keep unless it gives real and important bonuses to the side that owns it.

Basicly you want to go "holy fuck we need to go stop that or our entire server will suffer from it".

"This keep unlocks xp bonuses and safe access to this pve dungeon, we better capture it but we need atleast 2 groups to deal with these guards. Also send a scout group to the enemy spawn and watch for inc"
These kinds of things.

I want to have a system that forces people to work together and that creates a community around the day-to-day ingame events.

Also I really hope that CC is good enough that a group of skilled players can take on greater numbers.
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
evolute
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada209 Posts
September 07 2011 10:20 GMT
#1905
On September 07 2011 00:33 Senx wrote:
Basicly you want to go "holy fuck we need to go stop that or our entire server will suffer from it".


You got to be careful about those types of things. Too little of an advantage, nobody cares. Too big of an advantage, and it's unfair for the current holder.
Senx
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Sweden5901 Posts
September 07 2011 12:34 GMT
#1906
On September 07 2011 19:20 evolute wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2011 00:33 Senx wrote:
Basicly you want to go "holy fuck we need to go stop that or our entire server will suffer from it".


You got to be careful about those types of things. Too little of an advantage, nobody cares. Too big of an advantage, and it's unfair for the current holder.


Yeah its definantly no easy thing to implement into a game and make it balanced.
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
irninja
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1220 Posts
September 07 2011 23:46 GMT
#1907
Also I really hope that CC is good enough that a group of skilled players can take on greater numbers.


I think that's one thing you'll never have to worry about in this game.
www.teamlegacy.net | MMO junkies
Lockon
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada45 Posts
September 08 2011 20:05 GMT
#1908
bump. Asura week incoming, check it out.
Team Legacy - Asura week
Coop vs Insane ai guide - http://teamlegacy.net/topic/2270-guide-2v2-3v3-coop-vs-ai-insane/
rivurivurivurivu
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden140 Posts
September 08 2011 20:17 GMT
#1909
On September 09 2011 05:05 Lockon wrote:
bump. Asura week incoming, check it out.
Team Legacy - Asura week



Is that the last race week ?

omg i want to see more content, more pvp map, more bosses, more dungeons and a openbeta T_T
irninja
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1220 Posts
September 08 2011 20:59 GMT
#1910
On September 09 2011 05:17 rivurivurivurivu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 05:05 Lockon wrote:
bump. Asura week incoming, check it out.
Team Legacy - Asura week



Is that the last race week ?

omg i want to see more content, more pvp map, more bosses, more dungeons and a openbeta T_T


Ditto. Besides who cares about the stereotypical "cute" race anyway.

More WvW and Guild info please.
www.teamlegacy.net | MMO junkies
evolute
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada209 Posts
September 10 2011 03:08 GMT
#1911
On September 09 2011 05:59 irninja wrote:

Ditto. Besides who cares about the stereotypical "cute" race anyway.

More WvW and Guild info please.


Haters gonna' hate while I wreck people while being adorable.
Takyn
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany42 Posts
September 12 2011 17:03 GMT
#1912
Asura Week, first blog post including video

http://www.arena.net/blog/matt-barrett-on-asura-design

KaluGOSU
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States171 Posts
September 12 2011 18:04 GMT
#1913
can i play?
Halt! Thou shalt not pass. Thou hast much anger, young one
irninja
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1220 Posts
September 12 2011 21:58 GMT
#1914
On September 10 2011 12:08 evolute wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 05:59 irninja wrote:

Ditto. Besides who cares about the stereotypical "cute" race anyway.

More WvW and Guild info please.


Haters gonna' hate while I wreck people while being adorable.


The second revision of Asura were cute, the latest looks like they all got hooked on too much alcohol.
www.teamlegacy.net | MMO junkies
Senx
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Sweden5901 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 09:30:52
September 15 2011 08:48 GMT
#1915
After obsessing over gameplay videos from the latest conventions I gotta say i'm worried about the lack of CC I see.

All I see is knockbacks, silences and really short duration roots.

Was it like this in GW1 or is GW2 taking the WoW-combat mechanics to heart?

I'm just worried about not be able to kill a disorganized zerg of 20+ players with 5 highly organized and skilled players.

There's no better feeling than overcoming odds in a nailbiting, long and intense fight.

With the lack of real healers and now the apparent lack of CC, I have a hard time seeing non-instanced pvp as being any kind of fun or rewarding at all.

I swear to god, global cooldowns, soft interrupt system and forgiving CC is removing any kind of flavor from a PvP game thats supposed to be based around tactics and skill :I

It just ends up being whoever does the most damage the fastest that wins, its so amazingly simplistic for a game in a 2011.

Please someone tell me I'm horribly wrong.
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
dEphria
Profile Joined June 2010
76 Posts
September 15 2011 09:46 GMT
#1916
long timed cc is one of the worst pvp mechanics

wvw will most likely be zerg/equipment/objective based
if youre looking for a challenge there is competitive pvp

overall id say not to get too worried/make too much up till we at least get to try it out a lil and see how it will work out
뎁흐리아
topoulo
Profile Joined September 2011
253 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 09:57:55
September 15 2011 09:56 GMT
#1917
On September 15 2011 17:48 Senx wrote:
After obsessing over gameplay videos from the latest conventions I gotta say i'm worried about the lack of CC I see.

All I see is knockbacks, silences and really short duration roots.

Was it like this in GW1 or is GW2 taking the WoW-combat mechanics to heart?

I'm just worried about not be able to kill a disorganized zerg of 20+ players with 5 highly organized and skilled players.

There's no better feeling than overcoming odds in a nailbiting, long and intense fight.

With the lack of real healers and now the apparent lack of CC, I have a hard time seeing non-instanced pvp as being any kind of fun or rewarding at all.

I swear to god, global cooldowns, soft interrupt system and forgiving CC is removing any kind of flavor from a PvP game thats supposed to be based around tactics and skill :I

It just ends up being whoever does the most damage the fastest that wins, its so amazingly simplistic for a game in a 2011.

Please someone tell me I'm horribly wrong.


Dont bother , i must have like 15 chars all rr5+ 3 rr10+ in daoc and i know that for organised groups after the first years cc was no issue.

Its was a big issue vz zerg and soloers which sadly mostly were.

Daoc wasnt perfect , for instance some additional battlegrounds @ max lvl was needed , of course with better implementation than today ones.

Gw2 looks fun but in no way it will be meaning full open world pvp and i doubt anyone will care

Like devs said the future is in esports aka instance 5vs5 pvp and for that theyr balancing out not for world pvp.

The only last hope for proper open world pvp will be besthedas mmo - if theyre still making it - with matt furor ( daoc pvp creator ) as a ceo.

Gw2 will be many things but its wvw will just be an alternative " fun " pvp which means will suit up zerg mentality players or soloers .



Senx
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Sweden5901 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 12:12:11
September 15 2011 10:16 GMT
#1918
On September 15 2011 18:46 dEphria wrote:
long timed cc is one of the worst pvp mechanics

wvw will most likely be zerg/equipment/objective based
if youre looking for a challenge there is competitive pvp

overall id say not to get too worried/make too much up till we at least get to try it out a lil and see how it will work out


I think its one of the best mechanics. But it requires you to be able to shorten, remove or block a given CC spell. There is a balance to be had.

DAoC is the greatest example of well done CC.

What GW2 is doing is exactly what pretty much any mmo released after WoW has done.

Global cooldown system, lots of instant spells, soft interrupt system, over-the-top spell effects that distracts from the important information.

Actual crowd control spells replaced by short interrupting spells to make it feel like you cant actually cast through everything because of the soft interrupt system.

Guess i'm ranting at this point.

I'm just tired of developers dumbing down pvp combat to appeal to casual players. Which doesn't even make sense. Most casual players dont even pvp in the first place.

The more complexity and punishing attributes in pvp combat, the more you can differentiate yourself as a player and a team.

Don't get me wrong, I WANT GW2 to be as good as it can be, I'm just worried they're overlooking simple things that can make both non-instanced pvp and instanced pvp so much more rewarding and dynamic.
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
topoulo
Profile Joined September 2011
253 Posts
September 15 2011 11:58 GMT
#1919
On the other hand compare it to swtor and Gw2 feels like it has a limitless skill cap not to mention it actual looks like 2012 mmo
TerraTron
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada137 Posts
September 17 2011 04:21 GMT
#1920
Hmm, I just fired up guild wars eager to earn dem monument points but I can't even beat nightfall lol... Feels so wierd not having any of my builds saved after not playing for like 3 years with absolutely no idea what to do.
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