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OhDeezy
United Kingdom54 Posts
I'm personally really excited, the original Guild Wars had for me the best PvP I've ever played in an MMO in the form of Guild vs Guild (GvG), and GW2 is shaping up to be a fantastic sequel! New additions are mutilple playable races, higher level cap (80), new classes, non-instanced world, dynamic event system (no more quests), personal story, and new large scale World vs World (server vs server) PvP. Official website In-game footage from gamescom: Part 1: Part 2 Part 3 | ||
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madnessman
United States1581 Posts
there is already a thread about this... | ||
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illu
Canada2531 Posts
I really liked the game. I used to be able to recall every single spell for Mesmer, Elementalist, and Monk. But I am uneasy about this and I am not really sure if I really want to play it. | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On August 30 2010 00:52 illu wrote: What I was really troubled by Guildwar (which I played extensively) was that both PvE and PvP requires something called "skill", which unfortunately the most majority of the population lacked. I was also unable to find a good guild which had good players, so at the end I had to quit. I really liked the game. I used to be able to recall every single spell for Mesmer, Elementalist, and Monk. But I am uneasy about this and I am not really sure if I really want to play it. The PvE definitely lacked "skill" (except arguably some of the things they added later on, I wouldn't know much about it), but the PvP certainly didn't. There are/were many guilds with very skilled players and lots of high-level play going on. But yes, for every good player, there are dozens of lesser-skilled players or just outright newbies - and things like Random Arena and Team Arena really were not balanced at all since it was 4v4. The high-level GvG was some of the best competitive gaming in history, though it waned heavily with the loss of the top Korean teams and the introduction of explosive growth in skill balance issues. I'm kind of excited about GW2 since I feel like ANet consistently improved the features of the original game, moving closer and closer to an "ideal" that would make for a perfect competitive game (like the drastic changes they made with the PvP character system, the Battle Isles where you could test out things scientifically for PvP, and the PvP/PvE ability separation near the end [far too late, unfortunately]). If they build on the mechanics that they had in place (basic stuff like PvP character creation etc.) and keep doing smart things to separate PvP from PvE, then I have high hopes that the PvP will rock. Can't say the same for the PvE, though I never enjoyed that aspect anyway. | ||
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Disciple7
United States198 Posts
On August 30 2010 00:52 illu wrote: What I was really troubled by Guildwar (which I played extensively) was that both PvE and PvP requires something called "skill", which unfortunately the most majority of the population lacked. I was also unable to find a good guild which had good players, so at the end I had to quit. I really liked the game. I used to be able to recall every single spell for Mesmer, Elementalist, and Monk. But I am uneasy about this and I am not really sure if I really want to play it. http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/ you obviously never found that site if you're complaining of a lack of skill. pretty much every guild recruiting there is top 200 minimum. but to play in these guilds you would need to be able to recall EVERY skill (shit in GW is bound to get buffed to hell and used at some time) for EVERY profession so you know how to play against it, just saying =) so your view of the game might be a little skewed because you were stuck in the stage between getting into a top guild and getting out of LOL RA, DOLYAK SIG - DEFY PAIN - MENDING, I SHALL NEVER DIE they took out hero battles though which saddened me very much, it was the only PvP that only relied on you so if you couldn't find a guild, you could fill that time with HB. it was kinda a mini RTS almost, micro your heroes and stuff. i was mostly pissed cause they took it out 1 point before i could get commander 3 D= | ||
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
I was ok at wow pvp (2350 rating max in wotlk as resto shaman) but I'm done with that cause it's too restrictive, repetitive and just not fun. There are too few ways to play your character in WoW and every way has to have the blizzard stamp of approval of that's how they expect your class to be played or they just destroy that build with nerfs. And then I was like, I want to try hunter, which would require like weeks of boring as shit gameplay time to get a character into shape to even begin trying to compete without it even being real practice. Also the community is sort of shit compared to Starcraft's. I like the rpg combat style though so I'm looking for something better. Should I check into it? And what's a good community or site to learn about the scene and GW PvP basics? | ||
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illu
Canada2531 Posts
On August 30 2010 08:00 Disciple7 wrote: http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/ you obviously never found that site if you're complaining of a lack of skill. pretty much every guild recruiting there is top 200 minimum. but to play in these guilds you would need to be able to recall EVERY skill (shit in GW is bound to get buffed to hell and used at some time) for EVERY profession so you know how to play against it, just saying =) so your view of the game might be a little skewed because you were stuck in the stage between getting into a top guild and getting out of LOL RA, DOLYAK SIG - DEFY PAIN - MENDING, I SHALL NEVER DIE they took out hero battles though which saddened me very much, it was the only PvP that only relied on you so if you couldn't find a guild, you could fill that time with HB. it was kinda a mini RTS almost, micro your heroes and stuff. i was mostly pissed cause they took it out 1 point before i could get commander 3 D= Sigh, I didn't know this. If I did, I would have passed as I was familiar with almost every skill in the game and I am smart enough to adapt quickly (don't want to sound too boastful but I understood the game pretty nicely back then). For GW2 I'll watch these things out and find elite communities more actively. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On August 30 2010 08:00 Disciple7 wrote: http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/ you obviously never found that site if you're complaining of a lack of skill. pretty much every guild recruiting there is top 200 minimum. but to play in these guilds you would need to be able to recall EVERY skill (shit in GW is bound to get buffed to hell and used at some time) for EVERY profession so you know how to play against it, just saying =) so your view of the game might be a little skewed because you were stuck in the stage between getting into a top guild and getting out of LOL RA, DOLYAK SIG - DEFY PAIN - MENDING, I SHALL NEVER DIE they took out hero battles though which saddened me very much, it was the only PvP that only relied on you so if you couldn't find a guild, you could fill that time with HB. it was kinda a mini RTS almost, micro your heroes and stuff. i was mostly pissed cause they took it out 1 point before i could get commander 3 D= top 200 meant nothing in GW. Even some of the top Guilds on the ladder when they started doing automated tournaments meant shit. There were like at best 7-8 really good guilds loaded with "top" players, and a lot of guilds with good players saddled by people who weren't good. | ||
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holdthephone
United States523 Posts
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Disciple7
United States198 Posts
On August 30 2010 08:36 ZapRoffo wrote: I only briefly played around with Guild Wars back when it had no expansions, and I'm trying to decide if I should try to get into competitive style Guild Wars 2. I was ok at wow pvp (2350 rating max in wotlk as resto shaman) but I'm done with that cause it's too restrictive, repetitive and just not fun. There are too few ways to play your character in WoW and every way has to have the blizzard stamp of approval of that's how they expect your class to be played or they just destroy that build with nerfs. And then I was like, I want to try hunter, which would require like weeks of boring as shit gameplay time to get a character into shape to even begin trying to compete without it even being real practice. Also the community is sort of shit compared to Starcraft's. I like the rpg combat style though so I'm looking for something better. Should I check into it? And what's a good community or site to learn about the scene and GW PvP basics? already posted, http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/ and yes, it is definitely worth it to get into competitive GW, however i don't think the PvP will be as good as in GW2 it is still going to be decent. On August 30 2010 09:44 Ace wrote: top 200 meant nothing in GW. Even some of the top Guilds on the ladder when they started doing automated tournaments meant shit. There were like at best 7-8 really good guilds loaded with "top" players, and a lot of guilds with good players saddled by people who weren't good. i'm guessing you didn't play competitively during factions? the situation you're describing is only post-EviL, maybe even only post-nightfall | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Disciple7
United States198 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On August 30 2010 14:05 Disciple7 wrote: i'm guessing you didn't play competitively during factions? the situation you're describing is only post-EviL, maybe even only post-nightfall No way. During Prophecy it was mostly EviL, WM, and iQ (or something, one of the US guilds) dominating left and right... then the Koreans went on hiatus during Factions for the most part so it was like Te iQ etc. and some Euro teams that I don't remember anymore... and even after... uhhh, Nightfall it was still mostly a centralized mess at the top, despite the return of some of the EviL players (and the resurgence of WM). And the gap between the top 10 guilds and the rest was hilariously brutal... and the top 10-20 guilds all lent players to each other so it was a downright clusterfuck of e-drama. Edit: Oh yeah, RenO's random return to prominence during Nightfall was also bizarre. But yeah, the US and EU guilds just sent players to each other; most of the time you'd just see 4 main guilds and 4 guests, or even less as they just temporarily guild swapped (until ANet put in that retarded unelegant "punishment" of reducing/removing points until X amount of time has passed since guild entry... but then by that point no one really cared about getting points so they guild hopped anyways). | ||
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Disciple7
United States198 Posts
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probu
Canada36 Posts
Though I PvEd for the friends and the content, I was almost exclusively into GvG. Naturally, my excitement towards GW2 centres around that same type of PvP. They've said very little about it, but I've been fortunate enough to work with some of the devs on projects like the alpha, izzy forums, test krewe, etc., so I've had the chance to get some real information out of them. I'll obviously be in shit if I release details, but I think it's safe to say that there WILL be a team vs team format, but it will be closer to the arena formats you've seen in other games than to GvG in GW1. I'm super skeptical, because I've followed ANet closely and know intimately the problems they have yet to solve - but that just means it's going to be different and not necessarily better or worse. I know they're confident about the PvP they'll bring to GW2 - which tells me they've gone with the classic deathmatch/CTF/KotH approach (don't quote me on that) and it may or may not be fun. I really don't know what to expect. It's going to be very different. I encourage anyone interested in GW PvP to pressure ANet via forums, in-game or in-person to talk about their PvP. Tell them it's important to you. Let them know that you want it. They are very involved in the community and that kind of feedback really does make a difference. They get so brainwashed at everyone asking about quests and roleplaying and dungeons and items and shit that they lose focus on PvP. It's saddening, but we're the ones that can change it. As for that RenO return that was mentioned - it was almost entirely a new team, including many american players. There were only one or two original members playing. It was just the leftovers and cape leechers messing around, because that particular season rewarded free copies of Nightfall and some other junk to the top three teams on the ladder. They finished first, despite much controversy. I think they had their gold trim removed for "ladder manipulation" but still earned the copies of Nightfall and something like a mousepad or stickers or some junk. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
But I mean, there's a reason why in that second major tourney iQ came out of semi-retirement and waltzed through the tournament cutting down "favoured" teams like Te. They had all the good players. And you might think other players had good players but they really were riding the coattails of ~4 people (like Te, their two monks were crazy and I think one of their W was great but otherwise they weren't anything special, they just had players that didn't suck and had solid builds). Euro scene was even worse because people shared players all the time, especially in light of the language barrier, so it caused shit like why would you play with your guild's monks if Steppn and Dephria were willing to guest, etc. Still follows with the case of there only being a handful of players that were dominatingly good, and those players tended to be consolidated in maybe 5 teams. That's also why when... Te? fell apart and they made that other guild (Rebel Uprising I think?) they just gathered together players from Te and some Eu teams and kept rocking. My last guild was a Euro team consisting of [ice], [EaSy], and wherever it was that Firefox Balrog and sake came from (it was a big-name team but I forget, it wasn't Frozen Flame but it was the other big team), and we hit #1 pretty easily before sake quit and we broke up. So yeah, I'm with Ace here, it's definitely not even top 50. It was really debatable if between US and Eu there were even enough good players to fill 4 teams, and in Korea it was mostly just the combined team of WM and EviL that steamrolled even after Bloodlight/Rose/etc's 1.5-year hiatus from the game. Actually if you think about it, the fact that those two didn't play for so long, came back, and still roared through ladder is pretty damning of how thin the talent pool was at the top and how big of a disparity there was between the actually good teams and the ones that were wannabe and shifting from 50-250 based on FotM etc. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On August 30 2010 14:42 Southlight wrote: And the gap between the top 10 guilds and the rest was hilariously brutal... and the top 10-20 guilds all lent players to each other so it was a downright clusterfuck of e-drama. Yeah... At the beginning of the game, few people GvG'ed "seriously". Those that did found all the broken stuff (Healing Seed spam, Quickshot spam etc.). So it was less about skill and more about being clever, inventive, or knowledgeable of skill interactions (i.e. good at building an effective team comp). Another problem at the beginning: no observer mode. You never knew what the "top" teams were doing unless you played them and they did it to you. The player base didn't have a good gathering point (like iQ's website) to discuss these things. Yet another problem at the beginning: PvE characters were strictly superior to PvP characters because of itemization weaknesses/gaps in PvP characters. The special items that existed in PvE and the ability to have an inventory full of different weapons and armor to counter certain things gave PvE characters an advantage. Honestly this should have been fixed really early on because it turned a LOT of people off of PvP. All of these issues contributed to small numbers of people taking GvG seriously. Unfortunately it was so small, that the phenomenon you are talking about happened. When at the top, you play the same teams over and over and you know each player individually based on their skills/exploits. So they tend to hang together and the lines get blurred. Hopefully, GW2 can kickstart their PvP in a good way instead of having to wade through issues like basic functionality (PvP character creation etc.) so that this doesn't happen again. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On August 30 2010 15:36 DefMatrixUltra wrote: Yeah... At the beginning of the game, few people GvG'ed "seriously". Those that did found all the broken stuff (Healing Seed spam, Quickshot spam etc.). So it was less about skill and more about being clever, inventive, or knowledgeable of skill interactions (i.e. good at building an effective team comp). Aye, I know calling the game "Build Wars" was a bit of a joke, but at higher levels that's what the game tended to amount to. That's also why there was the "Bloodlight aura,"* in that EviL was the best standard team and WM was the most outside-the-box thinkers, and those two kept dominating Prophecy, with EviL constantly rolling WM because they were simply more accustomed to playing against the bizarre stuff that WM would play/do. I forget where I saw the post (I think it was here on TL actually) but it used to be said that a huge part of GW was simply who spent more of their life figuring out every build in existence, so that when you see a build you recognize it asap and react accordingly. * The joke/legend amongst upper-tier US teams during the reign of EviL pre-Factions was that Bloodlight was unkillable... kind of like Chuck Norris jokes, except for Bloodlight. That's how far ahead the Koreans seemed to be... | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
why? fellblade. yeah. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On August 30 2010 15:36 DefMatrixUltra wrote: Yeah... At the beginning of the game, few people GvG'ed "seriously". Those that did found all the broken stuff (Healing Seed spam, Quickshot spam etc.). So it was less about skill and more about being clever, inventive, or knowledgeable of skill interactions (i.e. good at building an effective team comp). Another problem at the beginning: no observer mode. You never knew what the "top" teams were doing unless you played them and they did it to you. The player base didn't have a good gathering point (like iQ's website) to discuss these things. Yet another problem at the beginning: PvE characters were strictly superior to PvP characters because of itemization weaknesses/gaps in PvP characters. The special items that existed in PvE and the ability to have an inventory full of different weapons and armor to counter certain things gave PvE characters an advantage. Honestly this should have been fixed really early on because it turned a LOT of people off of PvP. All of these issues contributed to small numbers of people taking GvG seriously. Unfortunately it was so small, that the phenomenon you are talking about happened. When at the top, you play the same teams over and over and you know each player individually based on their skills/exploits. So they tend to hang together and the lines get blurred. Hopefully, GW2 can kickstart their PvP in a good way instead of having to wade through issues like basic functionality (PvP character creation etc.) so that this doesn't happen again. This is so true. I remember Ensign from iQ and myself (I was in iQ from the very start and I was the "PR" person in a way lol) complaining extremely hard about why should PvP players be forced to grind through PvE to get good PvP gear. At the time we were looking at the game from an Easy Entry, Easy Play PoV and a lot of PvP players agreed. Part of the reason the skill bar in PvP between the top ~10 guilds and everyone else was so bad was precisely due to this. A lot of the players in iQ tested skills, builds in PvE by hitting certain mobs over 1000 times, and so we had a very deep understanding of the game. Ensign was the first to really show everyone how focus swapping worked, and we came out with lots of OP builds. Iirc I was spamming forums telling everyone how broken healing seed was and lo and behold we all know what happened. Then you had guilds like TE and I can't remember but like 6 other guilds that had some seriously great players. Everyone else? Even if you were good that barrier to entry made getting to the top of PvP painful. You were so out of luck if your 8 man roster weren't all fully prepped. Anet took a VERY long time to address this and by the time they listened the PvP was already on the way to the gutter. Silly things like "PvE vs PvP" arguments kept cropping up while the real problem got ignored. It took them over 2 years? to finally implement Unlock All Skills iirc. So in essence ANet killed their own game because they didn't follow the golden rule of gaming set by companies like Capcom and even Blizzard: If you have a great product that is booming listen to your top players and make the game easy to enter. Otherwise you fail. On August 30 2010 15:42 Southlight wrote: Aye, I know calling the game "Build Wars" was a bit of a joke, but at higher levels that's what the game tended to amount to. That's also why there was the "Bloodlight aura,"* in that EviL was the best standard team and WM was the most outside-the-box thinkers, and those two kept dominating Prophecy, with EviL constantly rolling WM because they were simply more accustomed to playing against the bizarre stuff that WM would play/do. I forget where I saw the post (I think it was here on TL actually) but it used to be said that a huge part of GW was simply who spent more of their life figuring out every build in existence, so that when you see a build you recognize it asap and react accordingly. * The joke/legend amongst upper-tier US teams during the reign of EviL pre-Factions was that Bloodlight was unkillable... kind of like Chuck Norris jokes, except for Bloodlight. That's how far ahead the Koreans seemed to be... Well to be fair one of the reasons the Koreans dominated was that their communication was so much better. Everyone else was using Voice Chat where as they were sitting in Cyber Cafes ^_^. They were really good though. They started the whole Gale spam on Warriors shit that indirectly led to Ranger Spike iirc. | ||
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