EPTDiablo III General Discussion - Page 310
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[Crimson]Bason
China161 Posts
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Gescom
Canada3513 Posts
If you step back for a second and actually look at D2 under a microscope the "build diversity" was a joke. 2/3 of the skills were completely unusable, synergies made it so that you had to spent all your skill points on a single skill, very few pieces of equipment were actually good. I mean.. if you want to make a hell viable char, there's basically 2 builds per class that can do it (Sorc had a bit more).. Just because you could have a Sorcy that used orb + meteor and other Sorc that could use Blizzard vs now a single max Wizard could switch back and forth (and potentially to dozens of other skills) I don't think limits anything...... Take a d2 skill calc and pick 4 random skills on a char and see if it comes out to something that makes sense. Oh, my sweet Barb with Increased Stamina, Berserk, Natural Resistances and Grim Ward. Nice! Ready for my Druid with Ravens, Lycanthropy, Arctic Blast and Molten Boulder! This kind of experiment will actually work in D3. How can you say there is no progress of dmg output? Do you know what dmg output in normal vs inferno looks like? O_O | ||
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Avalain
Canada308 Posts
On March 19 2012 23:47 [Crimson]Bason wrote: its the same.... blizzard are arcane spenders... same as fury spenders.... not talking about pvp at the moment.. just pvm. And either 175 or 150 and difference with runes... all that is similar to any other classes skills. there should be class differences in tankiness and dmg output and crowd control or else no variety. I mean common for a lvl 50 spell like blizzard to do the same amount as a lvl 10 spells? so why get it? without the point system there is no real progression of the dmg output and as you lvl up the spells arent even stronger... a lvl 1 magic missle can do 150% of meapon dmg almost the same as a blizzard? you dont get the sense of WOW i reached lvl 50 and I got blizzard Im going to be much stronger now... NO.... because blizzard or meteor dont do any more dmg than a lvl 10 skill.... and cost more arcane power... Do you see the problem there? there is no progression of dmg or power as in D2 where you reach certain lvl and gain certain skills u feel u reached a breaking point and will increase your dmg output... There is none of that in D3 yes sure you get new skills mostly crowd control or defensive buffs but in the dmg output area a lvl 10 skill will do just as good as a lvl 60 skill It sounds like you haven't played it yet and I'm worried that you're not going to look at it with an open mind. I'm not exactly an expert but I do have the beta so I'll try to give you a bit of an idea of what the game is like. First of all, I've played all of the classes and they feel different. Well, ok, there are some that feel fairly similar though I still get a different impression from each one (ex. the wizard and demon hunter are kinda the same, though somehow I love the wizard and really don't like the demon hunter). Each class generally has a different way to handle each situation. The wizard doesn't feel at all tanky. After patch 14 where they increased the mob damage until level 20, I actually found myself in a situation where I nearly died with the demon hunter. If I was the barbarian or monk I wouldn't have had any problem at all, but they were fast moving rare mobs that would teleport past my caltrops. Also, arcane spenders are NOTHING like fury spenders. All of your arcane power will regenerate completely in between fights (and a lot of it during fights as well) while fury will actually degrade with time. So every time a fight starts the wizard is going to be able to cast 3 arcane orbs right at the start while a barbarian will have to use his fury generator about 4 times before he can use any of his stronger abilities. That's a big difference. As for why you'd bother to get that level 50 spell instead of your level 10 spell, well, it's all about having different skills to get the job done. Plus, it's also all about unlocking runes now. Now, to properly compare your examples let's take the spell (rune) you get at level 50 to the magic missile spell at level 6. Magic missile will deal 143% weapon damage to a single target with the charged blast rune at level 6. At level 50, you get the Comet rune for the meteor spell, which means that you deal 300% cold weapon damage as an AOE. Then the impact site deals 120% and slows to 60% for 3 seconds. Now you're faced with a pack of 10 mobs. If it takes 2 magic missile shots to kill a mob, your new meteor spell with the comet rune will 1 shot all of them. So 20 magic missile shots or 1 meteor? It seems like a no brainer which one is more effective. Another thing to think about is how runes are now based on level. So your magic missile spell will actually evolve and/or improve as you level up. At level 1 it'll deal 110% weapon damage and at level 6 it'll deal 143%. Even then you have to think about if it's worth getting because you'll only have 3 skill slots and 5 skills to choose from. As for your comments about everyone being the same. Well, actually it's not true. Yes, everyone will have access to all of the same spells which they can switch to at any time (though generally not in a fight since you have to wait 30 seconds before you can use it and during a fight in this game that's, well, like an eternity). However, people will choose their abilities based on how they like to play the game, which can vary a lot considering you can only pick 6 abilities at once. There are also going to be specific pieces of gear that have modifiers for certain spells, which means that you can be different based simply on the fact that you have found good gear for a particular spell. Now, that being said, you will end up with optimal and recommended builds (aka spell selections) being posted to the web and many people will follow them. But that's really no different than D2 where it was "pull every available point into this skill and this skill while only putting 1 in this one to unlock that one". Personally, I really like this new spell system. It's nice that you can try out all the new spells without being heavily penalized for doing so. It gives you a chance to find out what you like and what you don't like without worrying about destroying the effectiveness of your skill tree and having to completely redo your character (though I guess at the very least they would have allowed respecs in D3). It lets you play with skills and find out how they work together without having to blindly follow the guide laid out on the internet (which, incidentally, will also help to find diversity between players of a certain class). | ||
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[Crimson]Bason
China161 Posts
and the switching back and forth. in D2 you could only 'max' or specialized in a certain tree or sometimes two trees of skills/spells which limits you when u encounter immunes that promotes group play I think. In D3 you have access to all trees so basically immune monsters dont seem as bad... | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
On March 20 2012 03:52 [Crimson]Bason wrote: the progress of dmg output now in D3 is dependent on weapon dmg im sure you know that. So the progress will be based on better weapons you acquire mostly. Im not saying those numbers are final because im sure lots of changing will go on after release. But that progress of dmg from skill is limiting and if you look at the skills as they are now lvl 1, 2, 10 skills (low lvl skills) are more effective same dmg % and lower cost than higher lvl skills? Does that even make sense. you get blizzard at lvl 30 or so but it only does 175% weapon dmg with a radius similar to arcane bolt a level 2 skill which does 250% weapon dmg. I really hope blizzard refine those numbers because they dont make sense. and the switching back and forth. in D2 you could only 'max' or specialized in a certain tree or sometimes two trees of skills/spells which limits you when u encounter immunes that promotes group play I think. In D3 you have access to all trees so basically immune monsters dont seem as bad... Yes we all played D2 and know how it worked >_>, they can promote group play by making some encounters extremely difficult if you don`t tweak your group the right way, that`s the beauty of being able to use all trees, they can make stuff much more harder because we will be able to tweak and find the right combination to that specific encounter. | ||
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Gescom
Canada3513 Posts
On March 20 2012 03:52 [Crimson]Bason wrote: the progress of dmg output now in D3 is dependent on weapon dmg im sure you know that. So the progress will be based on better weapons you acquire mostly. Im not saying those numbers are final because im sure lots of changing will go on after release. But that progress of dmg from skill is limiting and if you look at the skills as they are now lvl 1, 2, 10 skills (low lvl skills) are more effective same dmg % and lower cost than higher lvl skills? Does that even make sense. you get blizzard at lvl 30 or so but it only does 175% weapon dmg with a radius similar to arcane bolt a level 2 skill which does 250% weapon dmg. I really hope blizzard refine those numbers because they dont make sense. and the switching back and forth. in D2 you could only 'max' or specialized in a certain tree or sometimes two trees of skills/spells which limits you when u encounter immunes that promotes group play I think. In D3 you have access to all trees so basically immune monsters dont seem as bad... Progress in dmg comes from improved items, especially weapons. 175% of 3-5 dmg at lvl 5 vs 175% of 300-500 dmg at lvl 50 is obviously very different. Everything is going to scale up. Blizzard is not stupid you know. They are balancing everything to be proper. Besides, you really can't even tell from the numbers how good something is. Blizzard might do slightly less dmg, but it might "tick" really fast. For example, corpse spiders shows 16% weapon damage on the tooltip in patch 15. It looks retardedly weak. It's actually very strong in practice though because you throw a jar that spits out 3-4 spiders that attack for 16% each really, really quick. You can also continue to throw jars and have like 15 spiders out at one times. Don't just look at a tooltip and decide what's good and what's not. Blizzard has lots of people tweaking these values. Trust them! Saying that D2 immunes promoted group play is also bs. It promoted brokenly strong builds/mechanics (hammerdins, amp damage, infinity polearm) and made other classes obsolete. Yes, you could get around this by playing in a group, but it certainly wasn't design intent. | ||
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Avalain
Canada308 Posts
On March 20 2012 03:52 [Crimson]Bason wrote: the progress of dmg output now in D3 is dependent on weapon dmg im sure you know that. So the progress will be based on better weapons you acquire mostly. Im not saying those numbers are final because im sure lots of changing will go on after release. But that progress of dmg from skill is limiting and if you look at the skills as they are now lvl 1, 2, 10 skills (low lvl skills) are more effective same dmg % and lower cost than higher lvl skills? Does that even make sense. you get blizzard at lvl 30 or so but it only does 175% weapon dmg with a radius similar to arcane bolt a level 2 skill which does 250% weapon dmg. I really hope blizzard refine those numbers because they dont make sense. There wont be huge differences within a single class because everyone has access to same set of skills and by the looks of it all skills and spells are also normalize so they do similar amount of dmg ie higher lvl skills/spells dont do more than lower lvl skills. and the switching back and forth. in D2 you could only 'max' or specialized in a certain tree or sometimes two trees of skills/spells which limits you when u encounter immunes that promotes group play I think. In D3 you have access to all trees so basically immune monsters dont seem as bad... Sure, I can see why it seems strange to compare arcane orb and blizzard. But remember that blizzard also slows because of the cold damage and doesn't require line of sight. So you have a situation where both spells are useful at every stage of the game. Mobs are generating walls of lesser mobs getting in your way? You can catch them with blizzard but you can't actually get through the other mobs using arcane orb (at least, you can't before you run out of arcane power). Arcane orb is also a fairly slow projectile meaning that it's not uncommon to miss entirely (and in pvp could be dodged very easily unless you're at point blank range). Ok, I take that back. It is uncommon to miss the slow zombies in the beta but can still happen. So yeah, a slow projectile does more damage than an aoe that snares and doesn't require los. I personally love arcane orb so I don't necessarily disagree that it may be a little too strong, but why should it be rendered completely useless past a certain level? Everyone has access to the same set of skills but they can only use a max of 6 at a time. In the beta you don't get over 4. So why do you think people will all use the same spells if they all do similar damage? What you're saying is that people will have no spells that are obviously the best choice, and somehow you think that means they will all choose the same thing? In fact, now people are freed from having to pick the "best" spell as they level, because they all will (hopefully) work well enough depending on how you play the game. That is the exact opposite of there not being huge differences from player to player. Basically it works out like this: D2 - each class has 2 or 3 optimal builds that they had to stick to for the entirety of their characters career. Sub-optimal builds would leave you weaker at best and completely stuck at worst. D3 - each class has a pool of over a hundred different abilities from which they can pick 6. Trying a new build takes 30 seconds and at worst you spec back or try something else. Will this end up being that everyone only has 2 or 3 builds that are actually viable in Inferno? Likely not but possibly. Even then, at least you don't need to use the same build for the entire life of the character. As for having your build set in stone promoting group play, personally I prefer games where group play is encouraged because it's fun, not because you're required to. It's why I like WoW over Final Fantasy XI, and looking at subscriber numbers I'd say the majority of people agree with me. I don't want to be forced to play with some random people if I don't want to. It's true that immune monsters don't seem so bad but I think that's a good thing. Why should you be stuck completely simply because you're speced wrong for this one particular situation? | ||
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Urbz
Netherlands456 Posts
This is HUGE, i hope this will stay. So happy they're rewarding players who make solid allround builds, not needing to swap-a-roo all the time! <3 | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
On March 20 2012 05:43 Urbz wrote: http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/coming-soon-magic-find-rewards-for-not-respecing This is HUGE, i hope this will stay. So happy they're rewarding players who make solid allround builds, not needing to swap-a-roo all the time! <3 If the bonus is good enough that's interesting. This would prevent you from switching every 10minutes without making it permanent either. Need more details though, they will probably make a blog post about it. P.S.: After 6 months of having free respec etc, I don't feel the need to respond to people still not accepting it... I mean after so much time if they don't like it, that's their choice and almost every argument has been made so just ignore it. | ||
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Nilrem
United States3684 Posts
Lately it seems like the more we learn about Diablo III, the more we realize we don’t yet know? I have a feeling that when we all play the game, we will be in for many surprises. I bet the dev team snicker and giggle when ever we think we know something, only to find out there is so much more to the story. That is what excites me the most, simply not knowing. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
On March 20 2012 10:29 Nilrem wrote: Man, I did not even notice that snippet. That is quite substantial change, that is for sure. What I took from the article is this: I have a feeling that when we all play the game, we will be in for many surprises. I bet the dev team snicker and giggle when ever we think we know something, only to find out there is so much more to the story. That is what excites me the most, simply not knowing. I hope so... after so much time developing the game that at least it should surprise us. | ||
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whiterabbit
2675 Posts
How big download for Diablo 3 Beta client? I watched D3 streams few times and I saw all of them being low level and I read month ago or so there's just one part of Act 1 in Beta, did they add more content since then? How rare is D3 beta? I got some money, considering to buy key (if that is even possible) maybe so I am evaluating if I should gamble, if they send a lot of invites I might just test my luck for next 2 months.  Thanks in advance for answers. <3 | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
On March 21 2012 03:33 whiterabbit wrote: Hey guys I wasn't much into reading stuff about D3 because I figured I won't get Beta invite but I would like to know few things if you can answer fast. How big download for Diablo 3 Beta client? I watched D3 streams few times and I saw all of them being low level and I read month ago or so there's just one part of Act 1 in Beta, did they add more content since then? How rare is D3 beta? I got some money, considering to buy key (if that is even possible) maybe so I am evaluating if I should gamble, if they send a lot of invites I might just test my luck for next 2 months. Thanks in advance for answers. <3 - Hmm I don't remember, my folder is 8G but its after installation, Was it 4 or 5G something like that ? - No, same content for 6 months the first 13 levels - It's quite common now, can't give you a %, of course a lot more of people want it than people have it but it's really common now. They may send one or two other waves to promote the game before its release, maybe. You're welcome. | ||
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kuresuti
1393 Posts
On March 21 2012 03:33 whiterabbit wrote: Hey guys I wasn't much into reading stuff about D3 because I figured I won't get Beta invite but I would like to know few things if you can answer fast. How big download for Diablo 3 Beta client? I watched D3 streams few times and I saw all of them being low level and I read month ago or so there's just one part of Act 1 in Beta, did they add more content since then? How rare is D3 beta? I got some money, considering to buy key (if that is even possible) maybe so I am evaluating if I should gamble, if they send a lot of invites I might just test my luck for next 2 months. Thanks in advance for answers. <3 Just wait for the game man. If you get the beta today, you will finish it by tomorrow and the wait will be even more unbearable :/ They didn't add anything beyond skeleton king. Don't know about your other questions. | ||
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whiterabbit
2675 Posts
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Gerbeeros
101 Posts
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
On March 21 2012 10:41 Gerbeeros wrote: Hey guys =) ! I was wondering if some of you might have played diablo 3 beta with hd 4850 1gb. I know its enough to play the game but how much do i have to give up in graphics for it to be playable (so it does not dip under 30 fps). I have i3 2100 and 4gb of ram so i assume ill be mainly restricted by the gpu. Much appreciated if someone answers and thanks in advance. Peace. play D3 beta with a 4870 512 and E8500 @ 4.05Ghz play the game with no AA and medium shadows and a 1680*1050 resolution. I think everything else is at max. FPS is usually around 60 but when there's a lot of stuff going on (like the 4 pillar section before Skeleton King) the FPS bogs down and becomes a slideshow. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
On March 21 2012 12:06 udgnim wrote: play D3 beta with a 4870 512 and E8500 @ 4.05Ghz play the game with no AA and medium shadows and a 1680*1050 resolution. I think everything else is at max. FPS is usually around 60 but when there's a lot of stuff going on (like the 4 pillar section before Skeleton King) the FPS bogs down and becomes a slideshow. I'd say a better CPU might help a lot here. Test with lower graphics see if it helps a lot or not. | ||
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
On March 21 2012 12:12 rezoacken wrote: I'd say a better CPU might help a lot here. Test with lower graphics see if it helps a lot or not. don't care much about my FPS in beta been thinking about building a new PC when IB comes out anyways, Diablo 3 fashion show. Tier 10 Warrior is Lich King esque | ||
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qanik
Denmark1899 Posts
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