EPTGo Igo Weiqi Baduk - Page 4
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
The way a game is played is by first taking each corner (worth more since you only need to enclose them on two sides, less stones needed and easier to defend), then advancing on the sides of the board -need 3 sides to enclose-, then the battle starts spreading around the center. Your opening gave him a huge headstart on the sides, and while yours was solid ie. he couldnt attack, he didn't need to since he had way more potential territory right from the beginning. Tldr: play on two corners first. Rest later Edit : move 71 NEEDS to be on H6. Try to understand why. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On May 05 2014 17:43 Nouar wrote: Just giving it a first look, my guess is you lost the match in thr first 10 moves. You played two moves for each corner, giving your opponent the other two AND the sides. . so much nonsense... Yes, it certainly may not be the most efficient opening ever created... But it isn't straight up losing. You can roll a dice for your first 5 moves and still play a decent game afterwards... at least as long as you aren't pro, and even then People like Gan Siyang or Ohashi Hirofumi prove us day by day, that almost everything is playable, if you know what you are doing. And at tortes level games are certainly not decided by this. (btw, I'm as MaLa 3d in tl-room, whisper me, if you like) e: of course i totally agree about h6 ^^ | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On May 05 2014 18:23 mahrgell wrote: so much nonsense... Yes, it certainly may not be the most efficient opening ever created... But it isn't straight up losing. You can roll a dice for your first 5 moves and still play a decent game afterwards... at least as long as you aren't pro, and even then People like Gan Siyang or Ohashi Hirofumi prove us day by day, that almost everything is playable, if you know what you are doing. And at tortes level games are certainly not decided by this. (btw, I'm as MaLa 3d in tl-room, whisper me, if you like) e: of course i totally agree about h6 ^^ Yeah of course, but I just took a look at the first moves and the ending, and well, the territories at the end (apart from the black group at the top) were mostly defined by these first moves. 1/3 for black on the lower side, and 2/3 top for white. White is perfectly happy with creating walls around those 2/3 in the next 20/30 moves, before the move to the center. Then again, I'm a newbie myself, and nearly only studied theory ;-) I just wanted to explain what were the easiest areas of the board to take, which gave access to the most potential territory easily, and explain why 90% of games evolve from corners > sides > center. When you're bad, you're not good at attacking, so giving your opponent 2/3 of the board right away isn't the best start... A good player might be able to come back, but if the opponent doesn't make obvious mistakes (I have yet to see what happened top), it's still hard to come back imo. Obviously being a 3d, your advice is more useful :-p Around move 180 : you need to realise your whole group in the topleft needs two eyes to survive. If this group survives, you completely destroy white territory in the top left. You have one already in F13, but you need another one. At any moment around that move, instead of attacking F18 etc, if you just play around C18 or B18 to secure the corner with some space, you create another eye, your group is alive, and you probably win. More to come. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
I'm not yet able to see when to make two eyes or how to yet. Is it possible to make two eyes even if there is an opposing stone in the mix? | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On May 05 2014 19:27 Torte de Lini wrote: H6 on turn 62-64? I see it, and it is obviously to connect the two, but wouldn't he have cut it anyways? I feel it was cut one way or the other and H6 would have given him both options anyways ): I'm not yet able to see when to make two eyes or how to yet. Is it possible to make two eyes even if there is an opposing stone in the mix? No, on move 71. It would have cut white in two, making you able to (maybe) isolate and capture his 7 stones in the middle. If he plays there, he connects with his stones on the left and isolates all your stones on the top-left (G10 group), leaving them in a very bad spot. In short, in one move, you go from solidly invading his territory and working the center, to losing the center, and struggling to keep a big group of stones alive (which you ultimately lost). That's how important connecting your groups are (well, and thinking in terms of groups of stone) If you can connect some of your groups, you only need two eyes for the whole. You need to see at any given point, if a group can be connected to others, or if it's alone. In that case, it needs two eyes for itself. About connections : http://eidogo.com/#3bXbnqvZ (go at the end) - The top left stones are connected in diagonal because if black plays in one opening, you can play in the other and effectively wire them. - On the top right, they are not connected. If it's your turn, you can connect, if it's not, black can cut you. (That's why it's important to have the initiative. If you play somewhere not really important, a move that doesn't threaten the opponent, he can ignore your move and go play where it hurts) - In the bottom left (shitty example -_-), the white stones are strongly connected, in a line. - Bottom right, white is in fact connected, because if black tries to attack P1 or R1, his stones would already be in atari, you can capture his attacking stone on the next move. It is easier to connect stones near the edge of the board. - In the center, looking at the previous examples, where would you play to secure white's position in one move ? | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On May 05 2014 20:17 Nouar wrote: No, on move 71. It would have cut white in two, making you able to (maybe) isolate and capture his 7 stones in the middle. If he plays there, he connects with his stones on the left and isolates all your stones on the top-left (G10 group), leaving them in a very bad spot. In short, in one move, you go from solidly invading his territory and working the center, to losing the center, and struggling to keep a big group of stones alive (which you ultimately lost). That's how important connecting your groups are (well, and thinking in terms of groups of stone) If you can connect some of your groups, you only need two eyes for the whole. You need to see at any given point, if a group can be connected to others, or if it's alone. In that case, it needs two eyes for itself. About connections : http://eidogo.com/#3bXbnqvZ (go at the end) - The top left stones are connected in diagonal because if black plays in one opening, you can play in the other and effectively wire them. - On the top right, they are not connected. If it's your turn, you can connect, if it's not, black can cut you. (That's why it's important to have the initiative. If you play somewhere not really important, a move that doesn't threaten the opponent, he can ignore your move and go play where it hurts) - In the bottom left (shitty example -_-), the white stones are strongly connected, in a line. - Bottom right, white is in fact connected, because if black tries to attack P1 or R1, his stones would already be in atari, you can capture his attacking stone on the next move. It is easier to connect stones near the edge of the board. - In the center, looking at the previous examples, where would you play to secure white's position in one move ? Ah, I didn't even see it! I was too focused on making sure I had exits! I understand, in context, it makes sense; but when I'm playing I lose sight of it because of everything that is happening! For the center: I would play K12 | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Just played a fast game today, same scenario where I think I have the hold on someone and they always manage to turn things around over me. I get confused between capturing stones and claiming territories. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
No, the correct shape is playing in j12 yourself, effectively protecting both holes. If the opponent tries to play in one of them, he is captured in answer. This shape, you will se often. | ||
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KillerDucky
United States498 Posts
http://eidogo.com/#7jzBCJoW | ||
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Dagobert
Netherlands1858 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
I will chekc our Nouar's comment after laundry and KillerDucky :D | ||
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KillerDucky
United States498 Posts
On May 06 2014 02:02 Torte de Lini wrote: It was automatch, but it gave him two stones for free T_T I will chekc our Nouar's comment after laundry and KillerDucky :D You can reduce the number of sandbaggers (stronger players trolling/smurfing lower ranks) by turning off "Unranked Opponent OK". This prevents you from getting matched with guests, who are much more likely to be sandbagging. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On May 06 2014 03:05 KillerDucky wrote: You can reduce the number of sandbaggers (stronger players trolling/smurfing lower ranks) by turning off "Unranked Opponent OK". This prevents you from getting matched with guests, who are much more likely to be sandbagging. Why would someone do that in a game of Go? | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On May 05 2014 21:35 Nouar wrote: K12? Why? It's too far to be a connection. What happens if I play j12 (then either h12 or j11), or h12 (either capture with j11 or extend with h13 on the next move depending on your answer). No, the correct shape is playing in j12 yourself, effectively protecting both holes. If the opponent tries to play in one of them, he is captured in answer. This shape, you will se often. Oops, I meant J12 as you can block both areas with double atami no? On May 06 2014 01:15 KillerDucky wrote: I added just a few comments to your last game: http://eidogo.com/#7jzBCJoW How do I see yoru comments O: | ||
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
shall we start a team liquid room on kgs? What servers do you guys play on? I used to play kgs a lot, recently wbaduk and then a polish friend suggested tygemgo (which actually looks to be suspiciously similar to wbaduk room wise) Torte i have many accounts for various levels of shitfacedness. I lose against 15k koreans playing blitz when hammered (tbh that game i should never of lost - i usually am about 8k in those games) yet beat 1d in slow games in pubs in uk (on good days) omg one game of go and you get trolled. He was stronger by quite a bit, v hard to tell how much i guess > 9 stones. you are right he was rude, game is over when both pass. When i get into games where i am clearly stronger, its over and i want it to end i just resign and review the game. Key thing about go: Its all about the 4th lines to the edge the bits further into the middle are important but in terms of getting better fast (ie to 20k) forget it. Play a ton of 9x9 games. Igowin is a decent program - the key is play them fast. You learn more from 'oh yeah' and analysing later than reading. Reading is hugely important but you need to train yourself to see the good stuff from the noise of the rest of the moves. That comes from doing problems. In fact i wrote tons deleted it. Just play 100 9x9 games asap. Get it over with. Will help you a ton. Treat it like speed minesweeper. That will teach you lots about the 3rd line towards the edge - connecting groups and maybe some life and death. When you play 19x19 just play 4-4 points. The 3-4 point joseki get insanely complex and you really don't need that. I got to 3k never playing them. Learn some simple 3-4 move joseki - they will still be good when you are 9p and you will see them in nearly ever pro games played. Then id say the real game begins  | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On May 06 2014 03:49 Torte de Lini wrote: Oops, I meant J12 as you can block both areas with double atami no? How do I see yoru comments O: Yes about j12. Lower right, click on move numbers around where there are variations (line branching out) and you'll see his comments and suggestions. I agree, for the second game, at what moment did you feel you were in charge ? 0_o Going through it fast, it seems he always has your number and is countering you at every corner, he feels much stronger, I don't get why he got handicap stones. Don't be sad about that game, you didn't stand a chance. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On May 06 2014 03:53 MrTortoise wrote: cool go players shall we start a team liquid room on kgs? What servers do you guys play on? I used to play kgs a lot, recently wbaduk and then a polish friend suggested tygemgo (which actually looks to be suspiciously similar to wbaduk room wise) Torte i have many accounts for various levels of shitfacedness. I lose against 15k koreans playing blitz when hammered (tbh that game i should never of lost - i usually am about 8k in those games) yet beat 1d in slow games in pubs in uk (on good days) There's already a room on KGS! Look under Social :DDDD I play very slowly ): | ||
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KillerDucky
United States498 Posts
MrTortoise: There is already a teamliquid room on KGS. See the OP. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
I won't join you on kgs these days, sorry, got too little time with work and evenings are busy :s After move 72, it's basically useless playing on your group in the lower right. It's completely cut off and has no space to survive. There's a huge group just atop of it, and at the lower left, and on the right, the opponent's stones are far too close for you to be able to survive in that small space. He can close the gaps very easily. A chain of stones alone in the middle of the board is useless (or with chance can create aji -potential threats, weaknesses in the opponent's shape-), they must have a root, be linked to another group, preferrably on the sides, or you have to work in creating two eyes for it to survive. If it just stays there alone, it will die. And dead stones are worth 2 points each for your opponent : 1 for the territory, 1 for the stone. See comment at move #100 and #106 Your left group never had a chance after move 128. It cuts it off from the top, and the opponent carefully played before that on line 8 so that you don't have the room to create eyes on the bottom. | ||
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