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[Civ 4] Succession Game 3 - Page 14

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Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
July 03 2010 12:37 GMT
#261
One way or another, the main reason for our loss was a complete lack of focus. We could praet rush, we could fast expand, we could cottage whore, we could have a specialist economy, but we sure as hell can't do all of it at once. Some of our early cities were placed very poorly. Also, a lot of the crucial early game production was completely wasted on too many weak city defenders (2 archers per city, PLUS some chariots, is a massive waste, it's comparable to building 6 cannons in your main before expanding in BW). Next time we'll do better =]

I vote we run either Sumeria for the fast ziggurats (courthouse available with priesthood) or a philosophical civ + build the great wall for the fast great spy. That way we can show off the awesomeness of a warmonger + espionage strategy.
catabowl
Profile Joined November 2009
United States815 Posts
July 04 2010 02:53 GMT
#262
I voted to concede. When we found the iron, we didn't get it for another 30 turns when we had a settler to build right next to it. That killed our Praet rush.

Also, if we do inland sea again... lets not make it circular map. I always found it more fun that way.
Jung! Myung! Hoooooooooooooooooon! #TeamPolt
jfourz
Profile Joined August 2009
Ireland421 Posts
July 04 2010 02:58 GMT
#263
sorry i missed my turn, was out of the country for a few days

enjoyed reading the updates
it is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. that is true, it's called life.
Barnzy
Profile Joined June 2010
United Kingdom57 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-04 03:04:35
July 04 2010 03:04 GMT
#264
Oh man can i sign up for the next game? I love civ i kinda suck at it tho but i love playing it! how often do you guys play?
Ciryandor
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3735 Posts
July 04 2010 03:11 GMT
#265
Can someone now go do Game 4? Been avidly watching this, and I pity the fact I can't run Civ 4 here.
에일리 and 아이유 <3 - O Captain 박재혁 ・゚✧*:・*゚+..。✧・゚:*・..。 ✧・゚ :・゚* ゜・*:・ ✧・゚:・゚:.。 ✧・゚ SPARKULING ・゜・:・゚✧*:・゚✧。*゚+..。 ✧・゚: ✧・゚:*・゜・:・゚✧*::
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17431 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-04 16:43:46
July 04 2010 16:43 GMT
#266
On July 03 2010 20:09 Monsen wrote:
Wasted waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on the "mass expansion" idea (which isn't a smart move anyway- maintainance will kill you) instead of Pret rushing the hell out of 3-4 neighbours and securing their lands for later expansion (when you can actually afford to have more than 3-4 cities).

Get Iron ASAP. ignore everything else. Pump prets from 2 cities (preferably with baracks) conquer the good (and close !!!) shit (pyramids are sweeeeeeet), sack the rest.


Basically, that's what should be done and wasn't. By rolling JC you are BOUND to use the biggest advantage you can get in the early to mid game, which is Praetorians, and use it to eliminate at least one opponent pre-medieval era (before longbowmen kick in for good) and grab his lands. It's best done with 2-3 cities. What we got was 4-5 cities with sub-optimal (or rather, very bad) placement and didn't rush for Praets, missing our window of opportunity and losing at least 40-50 turns during which we would steamroll everything.

Consider it a timing attack that sets you up into a better position for later stages of the game.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Fen
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Australia1848 Posts
July 05 2010 23:25 GMT
#267
Ok, If no-one wants to play, then we will start a new game. The poll ended up in favour of continuing, but no-one actually seems to be keen.

If you are playing, and you wish to complete this game, please post a "got it" message in this thread, or just play out the rest of the game and post. If there are no responses, I will just start the new game.
Biochemist
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1008 Posts
July 06 2010 05:58 GMT
#268
I started playing:

1. Was doing a good job carving up hannibal with my awesome hero elephant/knight/maceman army.
2. Captured Carthage, another city on the coast, and then the city the capital relocated to when I took carthage.
3. Saladin declared war, and within two turns had four cities captured.
4. Reloaded a few turns back, switched to Buddhism so Saladin wouldn't declare.
5. Mansa declares, invades with fucking infantry. Longbows aren't going to do much here.

Seriously, can you guys not leave the bottom-of-the-scoreboard team alone so we can actually focus our efforts somewhere useful?

Now I don't have the energy to keep going, and it's late. I'm going to bed.
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27154 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-06 07:31:36
July 06 2010 06:09 GMT
#269
For people that like reading this kind of stuff, civfanatics has tons and tons of these games. You just have to learn the language.

Example: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=197818

at the bottom of the guide.
ModeratorGodfather
igotmyown
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4291 Posts
July 06 2010 07:19 GMT
#270
On July 05 2010 01:43 Manit0u wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2010 20:09 Monsen wrote:
Wasted waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on the "mass expansion" idea (which isn't a smart move anyway- maintainance will kill you) instead of Pret rushing the hell out of 3-4 neighbours and securing their lands for later expansion (when you can actually afford to have more than 3-4 cities).

Get Iron ASAP. ignore everything else. Pump prets from 2 cities (preferably with baracks) conquer the good (and close !!!) shit (pyramids are sweeeeeeet), sack the rest.


Basically, that's what should be done and wasn't. By rolling JC you are BOUND to use the biggest advantage you can get in the early to mid game, which is Praetorians, and use it to eliminate at least one opponent pre-medieval era (before longbowmen kick in for good) and grab his lands. It's best done with 2-3 cities. What we got was 4-5 cities with sub-optimal (or rather, very bad) placement and didn't rush for Praets, missing our window of opportunity and losing at least 40-50 turns during which we would steamroll everything.

Consider it a timing attack that sets you up into a better position for later stages of the game.

Blaming it on Rapid Expansion is highly inaccurate. If you're last in score midgame below deity, you're not expanding correctly.

I think the biggest problem was when one guy built a bunch of units, then the next guy deleted them.
Ullis
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden163 Posts
July 06 2010 08:24 GMT
#271
Hey, lovin' this thread.. If there ever is another game going let me know I'll be up for it.. But I pretty much suck (playing at "normal" difficulty usually). Also don't have the game installed at this very moment but could easily be rectified
catabowl
Profile Joined November 2009
United States815 Posts
July 06 2010 20:18 GMT
#272
Maybe we should draw back to Monarch level for the next. We kinda just skipped to emperor and I think a lot of players (not all) are not ready for this level. I've got a good 90% win rate on Monarch mode and I'm around 40% now on Emperor from some helpful info. We can all improve somewhere along the line.
Jung! Myung! Hoooooooooooooooooon! #TeamPolt
Lunaticman
Profile Joined November 2007
Sweden1097 Posts
July 07 2010 09:22 GMT
#273
Let's do another one, I just got the game of the steam sale!
Failure is not an option
Monsen
Profile Joined December 2002
Germany2548 Posts
July 07 2010 10:18 GMT
#274
On July 06 2010 16:19 igotmyown wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2010 01:43 Manit0u wrote:
On July 03 2010 20:09 Monsen wrote:
Wasted waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on the "mass expansion" idea (which isn't a smart move anyway- maintainance will kill you) instead of Pret rushing the hell out of 3-4 neighbours and securing their lands for later expansion (when you can actually afford to have more than 3-4 cities).

Get Iron ASAP. ignore everything else. Pump prets from 2 cities (preferably with baracks) conquer the good (and close !!!) shit (pyramids are sweeeeeeet), sack the rest.


Basically, that's what should be done and wasn't. By rolling JC you are BOUND to use the biggest advantage you can get in the early to mid game, which is Praetorians, and use it to eliminate at least one opponent pre-medieval era (before longbowmen kick in for good) and grab his lands. It's best done with 2-3 cities. What we got was 4-5 cities with sub-optimal (or rather, very bad) placement and didn't rush for Praets, missing our window of opportunity and losing at least 40-50 turns during which we would steamroll everything.

Consider it a timing attack that sets you up into a better position for later stages of the game.

Blaming it on Rapid Expansion is highly inaccurate. If you're last in score midgame below deity, you're not expanding correctly.

I think the biggest problem was when one guy built a bunch of units, then the next guy deleted them.


I'm pretty sure the best way to "expand" with the romans isn't building 5 cities early game.
11 years and counting- TL #680
Silu
Profile Joined June 2010
Finland165 Posts
July 07 2010 11:50 GMT
#275
After some lurkerage, I'd say your biggest problem was not forming a longer term game plan for the succession. In SGs it's so critical to identify the key points in the game when the team needs to discuss in length what the long-term game plan is and have everyone stick to that all the way, instead of the current turn player just doing whatever and the next guy going in another direction.

Wrapped Inland Sea, like any wrapped map that has land all the way to the edges, is also a very tough script due to the big number of land target AIs bordering you.

My 2c, nice to see some Civ on these forums
ToT)OjKa(
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Korea (South)2437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-07 13:12:31
July 07 2010 11:59 GMT
#276
This looks pretty sick, I don't have Civ 4 myself but I used to play 1 a loooong time ago, then played a hell of a lot of 2.
Played 3 but couldn't stick to it for long.
If I had the time I would like to be part of this, but for now I'll keep up to date with the thread.

Just reading up on some reports from previous pages, shit is interesting. May have to get a hold of it.
OjKa OjKa OjKa!
Fen
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Australia1848 Posts
July 07 2010 15:12 GMT
#277
Ok, I think this is over.

When I sober up, I'll make the new thread. (this doesn't mean people cant finish the game and report)
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
July 07 2010 17:54 GMT
#278
I took over the game from the last save and were it not for the terrible vassal system being used, the game would've been easily winnable. The problems were twofold: first Hannibal always vassaled out to someone before he could be conquered more fully, and can't be vassalized because our score was too low. I managed to conquer 4 cities before Churchill picked him up. Even though he only had 4 cities left his culture presence was so dominating that the new cities could barely be used and they had homeland penalties since he wasn't wiped out.

That in itself is not gamebreaking, but the problem was the Gandhi, vassal of Churchill. Gandhi was going culture and a.i culture will always be faster than space and requires nukes/attacking to stop unlike space which can be indefinitely delayed via espionage. Churchill was the strongest a.i by far from the start and only got stronger due to more vassals. The only way to stop Gandhi was to enter a war with Churchill (or have someone else cripple him, which didn't happen). Civ has apparently been patched frequently so I can't believe they never fixed the problem that an a.i would assure itself of a loss by vassaling a civ going culture, if not remodel the vassal system to prevent that from occurring.

After much time spent rebuilding from the horrible early position I managed to jump from the Renaissance to the Future in a few turns after saving up lots of EP thanks to Mansa Musa and espionage cost reduction. It wouldn't have been too hard keeping Mansa (had all techs) and Saladin (needed some time to tech) off of space victory with espionage (Churchill was behind having spent most of the game warring, Napoleon was defeated in war), but stopping Gandhi's culture seems impossible since either nukes or capturing means having to declare on Churchill. By the time that was remotely possible Gandhi was about to win, so I called it quits.

So far as I can see the only way to win is for Napoleon + allies to beat Churchill + allies so Gandhi doesn't have the most powerful empire in the game covering his victory. Unfortunately I don't see how that could really be arranged other than RNG or Saladin (liked Churchill) somehow joining in on Napoleon's side. I was virtually a bystander for most of the game as the tech deficit severely limited diplo options until Churchill was too big to matter anyways.

Summary: Vassals are cool in theory but implemented very poorly.

Would certainly be curious to see if anyone had success with another approach since it was hard to decide things at several points and I'm certain my playthrough could be optimized a fair bit more. Not sure if it would matter though given the situation unless there's a way to get the world vs Churchill fairly early on.

On July 06 2010 14:58 Biochemist wrote:
I started playing:

1. Was doing a good job carving up hannibal with my awesome hero elephant/knight/maceman army.
2. Captured Carthage, another city on the coast, and then the city the capital relocated to when I took carthage.
3. Saladin declared war, and within two turns had four cities captured.
4. Reloaded a few turns back, switched to Buddhism so Saladin wouldn't declare.
5. Mansa declares, invades with fucking infantry. Longbows aren't going to do much here.

Seriously, can you guys not leave the bottom-of-the-scoreboard team alone so we can actually focus our efforts somewhere useful?

Now I don't have the energy to keep going, and it's late. I'm going to bed.


I managed to avoid Saladin's DOW (he was WHEOOHRN with troops at our border) same as you with switching religions, and when Mansa was doing the same I begged him to avoid any issue there. Wasn't sure whether it was needed as it's Mansa but I seems it might have been!

On July 07 2010 19:18 Monsen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2010 16:19 igotmyown wrote:
On July 05 2010 01:43 Manit0u wrote:
On July 03 2010 20:09 Monsen wrote:
Wasted waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on the "mass expansion" idea (which isn't a smart move anyway- maintainance will kill you) instead of Pret rushing the hell out of 3-4 neighbours and securing their lands for later expansion (when you can actually afford to have more than 3-4 cities).

Get Iron ASAP. ignore everything else. Pump prets from 2 cities (preferably with baracks) conquer the good (and close !!!) shit (pyramids are sweeeeeeet), sack the rest.


Basically, that's what should be done and wasn't. By rolling JC you are BOUND to use the biggest advantage you can get in the early to mid game, which is Praetorians, and use it to eliminate at least one opponent pre-medieval era (before longbowmen kick in for good) and grab his lands. It's best done with 2-3 cities. What we got was 4-5 cities with sub-optimal (or rather, very bad) placement and didn't rush for Praets, missing our window of opportunity and losing at least 40-50 turns during which we would steamroll everything.

Consider it a timing attack that sets you up into a better position for later stages of the game.

Blaming it on Rapid Expansion is highly inaccurate. If you're last in score midgame below deity, you're not expanding correctly.

I think the biggest problem was when one guy built a bunch of units, then the next guy deleted them.


I'm pretty sure the best way to "expand" with the romans isn't building 5 cities early game.


Actually Caesar's traits complement that perfectly: org covers additional expansion and imperialistic saves time and lets you get better city placement with faster settlers. It's hardly like maintenance costs are killer on Emperor anyways. The one disadvantage with early rexing on a map like this is the inability to block due to it being almost solely land, so it's not nearly as good as on other maps. I would have praet rushed this game because of that factor, but in general there's nothing blasphemous about not praet rushing. Either way you don't want to come into the game with a set plan of 'praet rush' or 'rex early,' but adapt to the map and circumstances.

I didn't read any of the reports but so far as I could tell from taking over from the last save, it seemed like a lot of factors that resulted from poor and disjointed play. The bad diplo situation (our religion was definitely the wrong one and fighting Hannibal and Hammurabi when Hammurabi can easily be bribed is crazy) is pretty obvious. The city management was the main sore spot, as happiness was poorly kept in check and there were some very problematic decisions like the severe lack of workers (7!) and awful tile allocations (way too many random cottages).

The one bright spot was the military: someone was handling that well enough and thus conquering Hannibal from the start position is quite easy.

On July 06 2010 15:09 Manifesto7 wrote:
For people that like reading this kind of stuff, civfanatics has tons and tons of these games. You just have to learn the language.

Example: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=197818

at the bottom of the guide.


Yup civfanatics is incredibly helpful. Reading a bunch of games made learning very easy and was way more useful than just playing a lot with no sense of strategy.
Liquipedia
Biochemist
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1008 Posts
July 07 2010 19:38 GMT
#279
It's heartening to see someone much better than me couldn't beat it either! I guess I won't go back and try again, lol.
stk01001
Profile Joined September 2007
United States786 Posts
July 07 2010 19:56 GMT
#280
On July 08 2010 02:54 Ver wrote:
I took over the game from the last save and were it not for the terrible vassal system being used, the game would've been easily winnable. The problems were twofold: first Hannibal always vassaled out to someone before he could be conquered more fully, and can't be vassalized because our score was too low. I managed to conquer 4 cities before Churchill picked him up. Even though he only had 4 cities left his culture presence was so dominating that the new cities could barely be used and they had homeland penalties since he wasn't wiped out.

That in itself is not gamebreaking, but the problem was the Gandhi, vassal of Churchill. Gandhi was going culture and a.i culture will always be faster than space and requires nukes/attacking to stop unlike space which can be indefinitely delayed via espionage. Churchill was the strongest a.i by far from the start and only got stronger due to more vassals. The only way to stop Gandhi was to enter a war with Churchill (or have someone else cripple him, which didn't happen). Civ has apparently been patched frequently so I can't believe they never fixed the problem that an a.i would assure itself of a loss by vassaling a civ going culture, if not remodel the vassal system to prevent that from occurring.

After much time spent rebuilding from the horrible early position I managed to jump from the Renaissance to the Future in a few turns after saving up lots of EP thanks to Mansa Musa and espionage cost reduction. It wouldn't have been too hard keeping Mansa (had all techs) and Saladin (needed some time to tech) off of space victory with espionage (Churchill was behind having spent most of the game warring, Napoleon was defeated in war), but stopping Gandhi's culture seems impossible since either nukes or capturing means having to declare on Churchill. By the time that was remotely possible Gandhi was about to win, so I called it quits.

So far as I can see the only way to win is for Napoleon + allies to beat Churchill + allies so Gandhi doesn't have the most powerful empire in the game covering his victory. Unfortunately I don't see how that could really be arranged other than RNG or Saladin (liked Churchill) somehow joining in on Napoleon's side. I was virtually a bystander for most of the game as the tech deficit severely limited diplo options until Churchill was too big to matter anyways.

Summary: Vassals are cool in theory but implemented very poorly.

Would certainly be curious to see if anyone had success with another approach since it was hard to decide things at several points and I'm certain my playthrough could be optimized a fair bit more. Not sure if it would matter though given the situation unless there's a way to get the world vs Churchill fairly early on.


Yea vassals can be pretty annoying at times.. they seem to add more frustration than fun to the game. I might start playing with vassal states off. I think they should have made it so civilizations can't become vassals while they are at war, this might have made it less of a frustrating feature.
a.k.a reLapSe ---
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