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TL Chess Match 3 - Page 7

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Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
February 08 2010 03:28 GMT
#121
Nice sample games. Although I only saw one where the h -pawn was really put to good use.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-08 03:36:00
February 08 2010 03:31 GMT
#122
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 08 2010 12:28 Arhkangel wrote:
Holy crappers this is awesome!

Couple of things thou:
mdb Inc isn't bashing anyone he is just saying why he thinks h4 is not as good a s Nf3. You kind of have to do what he's doing if you are tying to convince people to play your move.

I played out Inc's lines and they look pretty good.

Malathion could you please explain yourself a little bit more, this goes for everyone else that is not voting for h4 based on preference but that actually believe Nf3 is inferior. Some of us are not so good at chess and maybe getting more arguments for the move would help us.

+ Show Spoiler +
What I'm getting is that h4 puts early pressure with little risk that then starts to widdle down once the game progresses and it becomes a liability while Nf3 is a passive move that has a better chance to be developed upon.

IMO if we play h4 we gotta commit to the offense but with Nf3 we have some versatility ulthou we might not be able to put as much pressure as we could and playing versus Caro pressure is really important.


Why is h4 so much better versus Caro? :S

jfazz keep that analysis handy I personally really need to learn more about Caro-Kahn and your notes on the options will certainly help me out a lot, and just for the record the fact that you suggested h4 (the classical mainline) scares me. Makes me feel that you have some serious tricks up your sleeve.


Spoiler the whole thing? Anyway yes, jfazz does have something prepared against the 6. h4 line. Read the last chess game to know what it is.


After 6. h4 I think we might be able to do a quick update to move 11.

I'm pretty sure everyone voting for 6. h4 is looking at the mainline

6. h4 h6
7. Nf3 Nd7
8. h5 Bh7
9. Bd3 Bxd3
10. Qxd3

I'd say we could do a quick update till move 11. unless of course you have something else in mind for moves 6-9...
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
February 08 2010 03:41 GMT
#123
On February 08 2010 12:31 Incognito wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 08 2010 12:28 Arhkangel wrote:
Holy crappers this is awesome!

Couple of things thou:
mdb Inc isn't bashing anyone he is just saying why he thinks h4 is not as good a s Nf3. You kind of have to do what he's doing if you are tying to convince people to play your move.

I played out Inc's lines and they look pretty good.

Malathion could you please explain yourself a little bit more, this goes for everyone else that is not voting for h4 based on preference but that actually believe Nf3 is inferior. Some of us are not so good at chess and maybe getting more arguments for the move would help us.

+ Show Spoiler +
What I'm getting is that h4 puts early pressure with little risk that then starts to widdle down once the game progresses and it becomes a liability while Nf3 is a passive move that has a better chance to be developed upon.

IMO if we play h4 we gotta commit to the offense but with Nf3 we have some versatility ulthou we might not be able to put as much pressure as we could and playing versus Caro pressure is really important.


Why is h4 so much better versus Caro? :S

jfazz keep that analysis handy I personally really need to learn more about Caro-Kahn and your notes on the options will certainly help me out a lot, and just for the record the fact that you suggested h4 (the classical mainline) scares me. Makes me feel that you have some serious tricks up your sleeve.


Spoiler the whole thing? Anyway yes, jfazz does have something prepared against the 6. h4 line. Read the last chess game to know what it is.


After 6. h4 I think we might be able to do a quick update to move 11.

I'm pretty sure everyone voting for 6. h4 is looking at the mainline

6. h4 h6
7. Nf3 Nd7
8. h5 Bh7
9. Bd3 Bxd3
10. Qxd3

I'd say we could do a quick update till move 11. unless of course you have something else in mind for moves 6-9...

If we go for h4 of course, then yeah, the book lines are my intention. You still haven't given an answer as to why you changed your vote.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
February 08 2010 03:45 GMT
#124
Yeah, your numbers are correct Incognito, I had a mental lapse

Lol, i suggest 6.h4, because its well known its the only legimitimate attempt to create winning chances out of the opening. The sidelines hope for outplaying the opponent in the middlegame, but you cannot expect anything from the opening.
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-08 03:48:35
February 08 2010 03:47 GMT
#125
On February 08 2010 12:41 Mystlord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2010 12:31 Incognito wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 08 2010 12:28 Arhkangel wrote:
Holy crappers this is awesome!

Couple of things thou:
mdb Inc isn't bashing anyone he is just saying why he thinks h4 is not as good a s Nf3. You kind of have to do what he's doing if you are tying to convince people to play your move.

I played out Inc's lines and they look pretty good.

Malathion could you please explain yourself a little bit more, this goes for everyone else that is not voting for h4 based on preference but that actually believe Nf3 is inferior. Some of us are not so good at chess and maybe getting more arguments for the move would help us.

+ Show Spoiler +
What I'm getting is that h4 puts early pressure with little risk that then starts to widdle down once the game progresses and it becomes a liability while Nf3 is a passive move that has a better chance to be developed upon.

IMO if we play h4 we gotta commit to the offense but with Nf3 we have some versatility ulthou we might not be able to put as much pressure as we could and playing versus Caro pressure is really important.


Why is h4 so much better versus Caro? :S

jfazz keep that analysis handy I personally really need to learn more about Caro-Kahn and your notes on the options will certainly help me out a lot, and just for the record the fact that you suggested h4 (the classical mainline) scares me. Makes me feel that you have some serious tricks up your sleeve.


Spoiler the whole thing? Anyway yes, jfazz does have something prepared against the 6. h4 line. Read the last chess game to know what it is.


After 6. h4 I think we might be able to do a quick update to move 11.

I'm pretty sure everyone voting for 6. h4 is looking at the mainline

6. h4 h6
7. Nf3 Nd7
8. h5 Bh7
9. Bd3 Bxd3
10. Qxd3

I'd say we could do a quick update till move 11. unless of course you have something else in mind for moves 6-9...

If we go for h4 of course, then yeah, the book lines are my intention. You still haven't given an answer as to why you changed your vote.


Sarcasm. Because neither 6. Nf3 or 6. h4 or 6. Bc4 are the unquestionably best moves.

Is it just me or is it way past update time?
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Arhkangel
Profile Joined August 2007
Argentina769 Posts
February 08 2010 03:48 GMT
#126
Myst he changed his vote because of the name calling and stuff. mdb and that other dude saying he doesn't know how to play Caro must have pissed him off. That's my guess.

Anyways, I think it's settled h4 is next. Now let's sit back and try to smell what jfazz is cooking.
Part Time Ninja
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-08 03:52:06
February 08 2010 03:50 GMT
#127
On February 08 2010 12:45 jfazz wrote:
Yeah, your numbers are correct Incognito, I had a mental lapse

Lol, i suggest 6.h4, because its well known its the only legimitimate attempt to create winning chances out of the opening. The sidelines hope for outplaying the opponent in the middlegame, but you cannot expect anything from the opening.


What are these "only legitimate" winning chances? I've always thought the wining chances should always lie in the middle/endgame, because if a certain opening gives such good winning chances, then the opposing side would try to avoid that opening at all costs...
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
February 08 2010 03:50 GMT
#128
On February 08 2010 12:47 Incognito wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2010 12:41 Mystlord wrote:
On February 08 2010 12:31 Incognito wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 08 2010 12:28 Arhkangel wrote:
Holy crappers this is awesome!

Couple of things thou:
mdb Inc isn't bashing anyone he is just saying why he thinks h4 is not as good a s Nf3. You kind of have to do what he's doing if you are tying to convince people to play your move.

I played out Inc's lines and they look pretty good.

Malathion could you please explain yourself a little bit more, this goes for everyone else that is not voting for h4 based on preference but that actually believe Nf3 is inferior. Some of us are not so good at chess and maybe getting more arguments for the move would help us.

+ Show Spoiler +
What I'm getting is that h4 puts early pressure with little risk that then starts to widdle down once the game progresses and it becomes a liability while Nf3 is a passive move that has a better chance to be developed upon.

IMO if we play h4 we gotta commit to the offense but with Nf3 we have some versatility ulthou we might not be able to put as much pressure as we could and playing versus Caro pressure is really important.


Why is h4 so much better versus Caro? :S

jfazz keep that analysis handy I personally really need to learn more about Caro-Kahn and your notes on the options will certainly help me out a lot, and just for the record the fact that you suggested h4 (the classical mainline) scares me. Makes me feel that you have some serious tricks up your sleeve.


Spoiler the whole thing? Anyway yes, jfazz does have something prepared against the 6. h4 line. Read the last chess game to know what it is.


After 6. h4 I think we might be able to do a quick update to move 11.

I'm pretty sure everyone voting for 6. h4 is looking at the mainline

6. h4 h6
7. Nf3 Nd7
8. h5 Bh7
9. Bd3 Bxd3
10. Qxd3

I'd say we could do a quick update till move 11. unless of course you have something else in mind for moves 6-9...

If we go for h4 of course, then yeah, the book lines are my intention. You still haven't given an answer as to why you changed your vote.


Sarcasm. Because neither 6. Nf3 or 6. h4 or 6. Bc4 are the unquestionably best moves.

Is it just me or is it way past update time?

Oh ok. I think it's just that modern theory establishes h4 as the best response, plus I like the ideas behind it, so I'm pushing for it
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
February 08 2010 03:52 GMT
#129
On February 08 2010 12:41 Mystlord wrote:
You still haven't given an answer as to why you changed your vote.


Good catch, lynch him, he's clearly mafia.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
February 08 2010 03:53 GMT
#130
On February 08 2010 12:52 citi.zen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2010 12:41 Mystlord wrote:
You still haven't given an answer as to why you changed your vote.


Good catch, lynch him, he's clearly mafia.

Lol that actually ran through my mind when I typed that up.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
February 08 2010 03:53 GMT
#131
On February 08 2010 12:48 Arhkangel wrote:
Myst he changed his vote because of the name calling and stuff. mdb and that other dude saying he doesn't know how to play Caro must have pissed him off. That's my guess.

Anyways, I think it's settled h4 is next. Now let's sit back and try to smell what jfazz is cooking.


Yes. If I wanted to be antagonistic and trollish I could do a lot better job at doing it. If you're offended by my sig, ignore it. That just arises from...the game of mafia.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Arhkangel
Profile Joined August 2007
Argentina769 Posts
February 08 2010 03:56 GMT
#132
On February 08 2010 12:52 citi.zen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2010 12:41 Mystlord wrote:
You still haven't given an answer as to why you changed your vote.


Good catch, lynch him, he's clearly mafia.


Please tell me this is a joke and you are not really using the Chess match to drop hints for the Mafia game -_- That would make this game soooo much more confusing.
Part Time Ninja
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
February 08 2010 03:59 GMT
#133
I'm getting annoyed from the use of the word clearly.

citi.zen why aren't you playing the game?

+ Show Spoiler +


Oh ok. I think it's just that modern theory establishes h4 as the best response, plus I like the ideas behind it, so I'm pushing for it


Would you have a link to an explanation of why h4 is the best response? Do we actually want an early trade down of minor pieces? From the looks of those games that you linked, it seems like black has tried to play an aggressive game, which I think has led to his demise. In my point of view, black should play the caro by looking to trade down when possible into a favorable endgame. Black's chances lie in the endgame in the caro. Yes, black can pull off some decent middle game threats (with 0-0-0), but that also allows white chances. Black is already better in an endgame, so I think there is no harm in him trading down. We know jfazz is a positional player, unlike lightman, so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a tradedown.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
February 08 2010 04:09 GMT
#134
Update time is in 8 hours, give or take, after the quick updates, and my time that I didnt use.
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-08 04:15:40
February 08 2010 04:11 GMT
#135
@ ~23 KST yesterday...

still a few voters unaccounted for, about 11 hours to go


Its been 14? hours already?
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
February 08 2010 04:18 GMT
#136
On February 08 2010 12:59 Incognito wrote:
I'm getting annoyed from the use of the word clearly.

citi.zen why aren't you playing the game?

+ Show Spoiler +


Oh ok. I think it's just that modern theory establishes h4 as the best response, plus I like the ideas behind it, so I'm pushing for it


Would you have a link to an explanation of why h4 is the best response? Do we actually want an early trade down of minor pieces? From the looks of those games that you linked, it seems like black has tried to play an aggressive game, which I think has led to his demise. In my point of view, black should play the caro by looking to trade down when possible into a favorable endgame. Black's chances lie in the endgame in the caro. Yes, black can pull off some decent middle game threats (with 0-0-0), but that also allows white chances. Black is already better in an endgame, so I think there is no harm in him trading down. We know jfazz is a positional player, unlike lightman, so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a tradedown.

+ Show Spoiler +
That's exactly what I've been trying to find since quite a while. Your post finally pushed me to look for it again, and I inferred the answer from this:

http://www.ericschiller.com/pdf/Caro-Kann Basics.pdf

Down at page 18, with 3 games as an example. I haven't played through the example games myself, but I think the document clearly dictates our goals as White in this game (though I think a draw is far more likely for obvious reasons).
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
[NyC]HoBbes
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States803 Posts
February 08 2010 04:55 GMT
#137
On February 08 2010 12:56 Arhkangel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2010 12:52 citi.zen wrote:
On February 08 2010 12:41 Mystlord wrote:
You still haven't given an answer as to why you changed your vote.


Good catch, lynch him, he's clearly mafia.


Please tell me this is a joke and you are not really using the Chess match to drop hints for the Mafia game -_- That would make this game soooo much more confusing.


The mafia game is over, he's just joking since like 1/2 this thread was in Incognito's game.
Where'er you walk cool gales shall fan the glade
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
February 08 2010 05:05 GMT
#138
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 08 2010 13:18 Mystlord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2010 12:59 Incognito wrote:
I'm getting annoyed from the use of the word clearly.

citi.zen why aren't you playing the game?

+ Show Spoiler +


Oh ok. I think it's just that modern theory establishes h4 as the best response, plus I like the ideas behind it, so I'm pushing for it


Would you have a link to an explanation of why h4 is the best response? Do we actually want an early trade down of minor pieces? From the looks of those games that you linked, it seems like black has tried to play an aggressive game, which I think has led to his demise. In my point of view, black should play the caro by looking to trade down when possible into a favorable endgame. Black's chances lie in the endgame in the caro. Yes, black can pull off some decent middle game threats (with 0-0-0), but that also allows white chances. Black is already better in an endgame, so I think there is no harm in him trading down. We know jfazz is a positional player, unlike lightman, so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a tradedown.

+ Show Spoiler +
That's exactly what I've been trying to find since quite a while. Your post finally pushed me to look for it again, and I inferred the answer from this:

http://www.ericschiller.com/pdf/Caro-Kann Basics.pdf

Down at page 18, with 3 games as an example. I haven't played through the example games myself, but I think the document clearly dictates our goals as White in this game (though I think a draw is far more likely for obvious reasons).


1. As black I would castle queenside in the 6. h4 caro if I wanted to play for an endgame.
2. Kingside attack sounds nice. If black castles kingside. I did mention that a piece sacrifice is probably in order for this to happen though, and sure enough, this game illustrates that point.

Game 1. First off, it does use the 6. h4 line, but does not follow up with the bishop trade. I'd probably categorize this opening more with the 6. Nf3 lines, as the light squared bishops do not come off the board. This game doesn't say anything about the 6. h4 mainline.

Game 2. Ah a 6. h4 mainline. Looks nice for white, since for some reason Black seems to be undeveloped. How did that ever happen? Anyway, sure, the advanced h5 pawn has a good effect. Unfortunately I don't know how we can realistically entice black into this kind of position.

Game 3. Exploiting the light squares with pins. Interesting. I noticed a few of these ideas in the other games you linked. The idea can be used with the Nf3 lines I think though. Although yes, it would require a light square bishop exchange, which is facilitated through the h4 line.

Game 4. Not really utilizing the advanced h4 pawn.

Games 1 + 4 are the only ones which seem to me that black is playing ok. In games 2 + 3 black seems undeveloped and without a plan. So I'm going to discard those games because I don't think those types of positions will arise in our game.

Games 1 + 4 feature ultra-aggressive plays from white, where black also allows white to play aggressively in return for some counterattacking chances for black. All the games feature 0-0 from black, or the king is left in the center. Games 3 and 4 just seem like terrible play from black, who for some reason plays the rook to g8. These games show specific situations which I doubt will occur in our game. I think 0-0-0 is more likely, along with a slow positional maneuvering game, as opposed to a sharp tactical game.

I can easily see black with 0-0-0, Qc7, Bd6, Nd7, Re8, Nf6, leaving us with little to attack on the kingside.

So when we play 6. h4, we better find some ways to force an offensive tactical game. But that requires us to force black to castle queenside. Which we can't really do, unless you have some suggestions.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
dozko
Profile Joined December 2009
United Kingdom160 Posts
February 08 2010 12:08 GMT
#139
Seriously people who are saying h4 is significantly better than Nf3 are just plain wrong.

Statistically with h4, white wins 56% of his games, whereas Nf3 nets him 52% plus recent analysis by rybka gives Nf3 as slightly stronger. Those stats are derived from 20 000 games so it is quite pointless for amateurs/club players to argue one of these is decisively better than the other just because they read a book on C-K especially one which has "Basics" in the title and was written some years ago lol
People respond to incentives; the rest is commentary.
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
February 08 2010 12:28 GMT
#140
UPDATE

6.h4 h6


[image loading]
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
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