• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:42
CEST 16:42
KST 23:42
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End6Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7
Community News
GSTL Returns in 2026!43Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-611
StarCraft 2
General
GSTL Returns in 2026! Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! Protoss AoE skill expression Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) WardiTV Mondays 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Announcement
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome Mutation # 538 Media Blackout Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory
Brood War
General
Rush's Odyssey Controversy [ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End BW General Discussion StarCraft 64 is coming to Philly at SC4ALL II Best Games Kespa era
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL22] Ro24 Group A CSLAN 4 is Coming! ASL Season 22 LIVESTREAM with English Commentary
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently...
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Chinese Gen Z: Between Dream…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10143 users

TL Chess Match 3 - Page 6

Forum Index > General Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 19 Next All
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
February 06 2010 23:47 GMT
#101
I'm not trying to bash people who are voting for 6. h4. I'm pointing out how the move h4 is weakening. I am not trying to personally attack anyone.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Nosmo
Profile Joined August 2008
Canada210 Posts
February 07 2010 00:10 GMT
#102
6. Nf3
Killer next Bonjwa//Much is also good//Savior what happened//Fuck yeah, Nal_ra!
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
February 07 2010 00:39 GMT
#103
For what its worth, 6.h4 creates much greater winning chances for both sides. Sidelines, such as 6.Nf3, 6.Bc4 or 6.N1e2 are more positional and apply more long term pressure, aiming to avoid creating weaknesses in your own position, while keeping pieces on the board (they avoid the light square bishop exchange, and often the knight exchange on e4 as well).
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-07 06:39:11
February 07 2010 00:54 GMT
#104
I'm not at my computer right now so forgive me if this is a bit short.

+ Show Spoiler +
Obviously if I plan to go h4 I won't castle kingside that's just silly. My plan is to cramp the black kingside with pawns. H5 contributes to this strategy by binding black's kinside pawns. If we could get a pan on e5 with a knight exchange on e5, all the better. If there's one weakness that I have seen in the Caro Kann when played at the professional level, it's that black is never able to comfortably castle in either direction if h4 is played. Either white gets a relatively safe king or black has a threat against his king.

Anyway, the only time that I feel h4 becomes a liability is when black is able to get his king QUEEN (lol) into the center, which if white plays correctly, he can prevent to some degree.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
Neos
Profile Joined June 2009
United States400 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-07 01:29:38
February 07 2010 01:28 GMT
#105
6. Nf3
+ Show Spoiler +
I don't like h4 immediately because the pawn attack is easily avoidable with h6/f6 and that bishop's in a pretty trapped spot as it is.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
February 07 2010 02:54 GMT
#106
Love the back and forth on this move, thanks all.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-07 07:16:52
February 07 2010 07:11 GMT
#107
+ Show Spoiler +
I've seen plenty of games when 0-0-0 has been fine for black. Usually when white also castles queenside. I've seen less 0-0 by black, but it is definitely playable. White can't get past black's solid kingside pawn structure without some sort of piece sacrifice. The pawns may cramp black on the kingside, but black really wants to play on the queenside or in the center. The advanced pawns shouldn't scare black unless white is confident with a piece sacrifice.

Black is perfectly capable of castling either way in the Caro. I've seen it many times. I've also seen black win when he doesn't castle. I don't see any evidence that points to h4 hindering black from castling. I also don't see any reason why black is forced to castle, Caro Kann games are semi-closed, so the king is actually quite safe in the center.

The other time when h4 becomes a liability is in the endgame. Which is what the caro-kann is all about. And I don't think white can really stop getting into an endgame unless he is really sharp or black makes a blunder. Which, sadly, I think is not the case in this game.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
February 07 2010 08:23 GMT
#108
On February 07 2010 16:11 Incognito wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I've seen plenty of games when 0-0-0 has been fine for black. Usually when white also castles queenside. I've seen less 0-0 by black, but it is definitely playable. White can't get past black's solid kingside pawn structure without some sort of piece sacrifice. The pawns may cramp black on the kingside, but black really wants to play on the queenside or in the center. The advanced pawns shouldn't scare black unless white is confident with a piece sacrifice.

Black is perfectly capable of castling either way in the Caro. I've seen it many times. I've also seen black win when he doesn't castle. I don't see any evidence that points to h4 hindering black from castling. I also don't see any reason why black is forced to castle, Caro Kann games are semi-closed, so the king is actually quite safe in the center.

The other time when h4 becomes a liability is in the endgame. Which is what the caro-kann is all about. And I don't think white can really stop getting into an endgame unless he is really sharp or black makes a blunder. Which, sadly, I think is not the case in this game.

+ Show Spoiler +
Recently though, I saw games played where h5 never became a liability. It actually become the star of the show so to speak. It gives White a clear space advantage on the king side, and it also divides Black's attention between the king side and queen side. I'm specifically looking at games played in Gibraltar this year, which have most certainly shown the viability of h4 and the Classical variation of the Caro Kann.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
February 07 2010 08:46 GMT
#109
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 07 2010 17:23 Mystlord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2010 16:11 Incognito wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I've seen plenty of games when 0-0-0 has been fine for black. Usually when white also castles queenside. I've seen less 0-0 by black, but it is definitely playable. White can't get past black's solid kingside pawn structure without some sort of piece sacrifice. The pawns may cramp black on the kingside, but black really wants to play on the queenside or in the center. The advanced pawns shouldn't scare black unless white is confident with a piece sacrifice.

Black is perfectly capable of castling either way in the Caro. I've seen it many times. I've also seen black win when he doesn't castle. I don't see any evidence that points to h4 hindering black from castling. I also don't see any reason why black is forced to castle, Caro Kann games are semi-closed, so the king is actually quite safe in the center.

The other time when h4 becomes a liability is in the endgame. Which is what the caro-kann is all about. And I don't think white can really stop getting into an endgame unless he is really sharp or black makes a blunder. Which, sadly, I think is not the case in this game.

+ Show Spoiler +
Recently though, I saw games played where h5 never became a liability. It actually become the star of the show so to speak. It gives White a clear space advantage on the king side, and it also divides Black's attention between the king side and queen side. I'm specifically looking at games played in Gibraltar this year, which have most certainly shown the viability of h4 and the Classical variation of the Caro Kann.



Could I have some links to some of these games? I'm curious.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
February 07 2010 09:16 GMT
#110
On February 07 2010 17:46 Incognito wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 07 2010 17:23 Mystlord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2010 16:11 Incognito wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I've seen plenty of games when 0-0-0 has been fine for black. Usually when white also castles queenside. I've seen less 0-0 by black, but it is definitely playable. White can't get past black's solid kingside pawn structure without some sort of piece sacrifice. The pawns may cramp black on the kingside, but black really wants to play on the queenside or in the center. The advanced pawns shouldn't scare black unless white is confident with a piece sacrifice.

Black is perfectly capable of castling either way in the Caro. I've seen it many times. I've also seen black win when he doesn't castle. I don't see any evidence that points to h4 hindering black from castling. I also don't see any reason why black is forced to castle, Caro Kann games are semi-closed, so the king is actually quite safe in the center.

The other time when h4 becomes a liability is in the endgame. Which is what the caro-kann is all about. And I don't think white can really stop getting into an endgame unless he is really sharp or black makes a blunder. Which, sadly, I think is not the case in this game.

+ Show Spoiler +
Recently though, I saw games played where h5 never became a liability. It actually become the star of the show so to speak. It gives White a clear space advantage on the king side, and it also divides Black's attention between the king side and queen side. I'm specifically looking at games played in Gibraltar this year, which have most certainly shown the viability of h4 and the Classical variation of the Caro Kann.



Could I have some links to some of these games? I'm curious.

+ Show Spoiler +
You'll find a lot of them for free on chessgames.com. Here are some, both wins and losses. I didn't find any recent Nf3 games, but there's probably some in there that I didn't catch.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?page=76&eco=B18

There are a lot of Caro Kann classical games. The ones played at Gibraltar are mostly h4 variations. The ones played earlier are mostly Nf3s. I think both are playable, it's just the modern style prefers h4.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
February 07 2010 13:43 GMT
#111
Hi guys, its currently;

6.h4, classical mainline, 7 votes
6.Nf3, sideline, 8 votes

still a few voters unaccounted for, about 11 hours to go. Interesting stuff. After the game, I can post some analysis and theme discussion for the different move 6 options if anyone wants (6.h4, 6.Nf3, 6.Bc4, 6.N1e2).
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
malathion
Profile Joined March 2009
United States362 Posts
February 07 2010 17:30 GMT
#112
Caro-Kann player voting for 6.h4

If you think this move is weakening you are not booked in the caro-kann, sorry
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
February 07 2010 20:38 GMT
#113
H4.
clearly the best move.
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
February 08 2010 03:16 GMT
#114
I retract my vote for the clearly best move, 6. Nf3.

I change my vote to 6. Bc4.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
February 08 2010 03:19 GMT
#115
Lots of dispute over this move, amusing.
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
February 08 2010 03:20 GMT
#116
Hmm, that now makes it:

7 votes - 6.h4
7 votes - 6.Nf3
1 vote - 6.Bc4
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
February 08 2010 03:21 GMT
#117
On February 08 2010 12:16 Incognito wrote:
I retract my vote for the clearly best move, 6. Nf3.

I change my vote to 6. Bc4.

Ok... Explanation?
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-08 03:26:21
February 08 2010 03:26 GMT
#118
On February 08 2010 12:19 jfazz wrote:
Lots of dispute over this move, amusing.


No dispute, only namecalling and labeling.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
February 08 2010 03:27 GMT
#119
On February 08 2010 12:20 jfazz wrote:
Hmm, that now makes it:

7 votes - 6.h4
7 votes - 6.Nf3
1 vote - 6.Bc4


Wait what? Wouldn't it be 9 votes for 6. h4 and 6 votes for 6. Nf3??
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Arhkangel
Profile Joined August 2007
Argentina769 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-08 03:49:55
February 08 2010 03:28 GMT
#120
Holy crappers this is awesome!

Couple of things thou:
+ Show Spoiler +
mdb Inc isn't bashing anyone he is just saying why he thinks h4 is not as good a s Nf3. You kind of have to do what he's doing if you are tying to convince people to play your move.

I played out Inc's lines and they look pretty good.

Malathion could you please explain yourself a little bit more, this goes for everyone else that is not voting for h4 based on preference but that actually believe Nf3 is inferior. Some of us are not so good at chess and maybe getting more arguments for the move would help us.

+ Show Spoiler +
What I'm getting is that h4 puts early pressure with little risk that then starts to widdle down once the game progresses and it becomes a liability while Nf3 is a passive move that has a better chance to be developed upon.

IMO if we play h4 we gotta commit to the offense but with Nf3 we have some versatility ulthou we might not be able to put as much pressure as we could and playing versus Caro pressure is really important.


Why is h4 so much better versus Caro? :S


jfazz keep that analysis handy I personally really need to learn more about Caro-Kahn and your notes on the options will certainly help me out a lot, + Show Spoiler +
and just for the record the fact that you suggested h4 (the classical mainline) scares me. Makes me feel that you have some serious tricks up your sleeve.


Edit: Will do then
Part Time Ninja
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 19 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Weekly
11:00
WardiTV Mondays #100
IntoTheiNu 1132
WardiTV1058
TKL 235
Rex145
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
TKL 235
Rex 145
BRAT_OK 83
SHIN 24
RushiSC 17
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 8245
Shuttle 2382
Mini 969
BeSt 793
EffOrt 651
Soulkey 609
Stork 409
Soma 385
ggaemo 253
Larva 250
[ Show more ]
Mong 167
Snow 131
Hyun 85
Mind 68
sSak 53
Sexy 38
Bale 28
sorry 28
Terrorterran 24
zelot 15
Noble 13
ajuk12(nOOB) 5
Dota 2
Gorgc8930
qojqva2616
Dendi2221
BananaSlamJamma337
Counter-Strike
edward440
markeloff118
Other Games
singsing1903
hiko773
B2W.Neo671
Lowko541
Liquid`RaSZi485
crisheroes332
Liquid`VortiX206
Hui .178
Livibee106
RotterdaM102
ArmadaUGS72
QueenE71
Mew2King53
Trikslyr2
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 8
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV850
League of Legends
• Jankos1157
• TFBlade713
Upcoming Events
The Patches Monday
1h 18m
Afreeca Starleague
19h 18m
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
GSL
20h 18m
PiGosaur Cup
1d 9h
Replay Cast
1d 18h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 19h
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
1d 20h
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
KCM Race Survival
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
PiG Sty Festival
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
PiG Sty Festival
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLAN 4
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
Escore Tournament S3: W8
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.