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TL Chess Match 3 - Page 6

Forum Index > General Games
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Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
February 06 2010 23:47 GMT
#101
I'm not trying to bash people who are voting for 6. h4. I'm pointing out how the move h4 is weakening. I am not trying to personally attack anyone.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Nosmo
Profile Joined August 2008
Canada210 Posts
February 07 2010 00:10 GMT
#102
6. Nf3
Killer next Bonjwa//Much is also good//Savior what happened//Fuck yeah, Nal_ra!
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
February 07 2010 00:39 GMT
#103
For what its worth, 6.h4 creates much greater winning chances for both sides. Sidelines, such as 6.Nf3, 6.Bc4 or 6.N1e2 are more positional and apply more long term pressure, aiming to avoid creating weaknesses in your own position, while keeping pieces on the board (they avoid the light square bishop exchange, and often the knight exchange on e4 as well).
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-07 06:39:11
February 07 2010 00:54 GMT
#104
I'm not at my computer right now so forgive me if this is a bit short.

+ Show Spoiler +
Obviously if I plan to go h4 I won't castle kingside that's just silly. My plan is to cramp the black kingside with pawns. H5 contributes to this strategy by binding black's kinside pawns. If we could get a pan on e5 with a knight exchange on e5, all the better. If there's one weakness that I have seen in the Caro Kann when played at the professional level, it's that black is never able to comfortably castle in either direction if h4 is played. Either white gets a relatively safe king or black has a threat against his king.

Anyway, the only time that I feel h4 becomes a liability is when black is able to get his king QUEEN (lol) into the center, which if white plays correctly, he can prevent to some degree.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
Neos
Profile Joined June 2009
United States400 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-07 01:29:38
February 07 2010 01:28 GMT
#105
6. Nf3
+ Show Spoiler +
I don't like h4 immediately because the pawn attack is easily avoidable with h6/f6 and that bishop's in a pretty trapped spot as it is.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
February 07 2010 02:54 GMT
#106
Love the back and forth on this move, thanks all.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-07 07:16:52
February 07 2010 07:11 GMT
#107
+ Show Spoiler +
I've seen plenty of games when 0-0-0 has been fine for black. Usually when white also castles queenside. I've seen less 0-0 by black, but it is definitely playable. White can't get past black's solid kingside pawn structure without some sort of piece sacrifice. The pawns may cramp black on the kingside, but black really wants to play on the queenside or in the center. The advanced pawns shouldn't scare black unless white is confident with a piece sacrifice.

Black is perfectly capable of castling either way in the Caro. I've seen it many times. I've also seen black win when he doesn't castle. I don't see any evidence that points to h4 hindering black from castling. I also don't see any reason why black is forced to castle, Caro Kann games are semi-closed, so the king is actually quite safe in the center.

The other time when h4 becomes a liability is in the endgame. Which is what the caro-kann is all about. And I don't think white can really stop getting into an endgame unless he is really sharp or black makes a blunder. Which, sadly, I think is not the case in this game.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
February 07 2010 08:23 GMT
#108
On February 07 2010 16:11 Incognito wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I've seen plenty of games when 0-0-0 has been fine for black. Usually when white also castles queenside. I've seen less 0-0 by black, but it is definitely playable. White can't get past black's solid kingside pawn structure without some sort of piece sacrifice. The pawns may cramp black on the kingside, but black really wants to play on the queenside or in the center. The advanced pawns shouldn't scare black unless white is confident with a piece sacrifice.

Black is perfectly capable of castling either way in the Caro. I've seen it many times. I've also seen black win when he doesn't castle. I don't see any evidence that points to h4 hindering black from castling. I also don't see any reason why black is forced to castle, Caro Kann games are semi-closed, so the king is actually quite safe in the center.

The other time when h4 becomes a liability is in the endgame. Which is what the caro-kann is all about. And I don't think white can really stop getting into an endgame unless he is really sharp or black makes a blunder. Which, sadly, I think is not the case in this game.

+ Show Spoiler +
Recently though, I saw games played where h5 never became a liability. It actually become the star of the show so to speak. It gives White a clear space advantage on the king side, and it also divides Black's attention between the king side and queen side. I'm specifically looking at games played in Gibraltar this year, which have most certainly shown the viability of h4 and the Classical variation of the Caro Kann.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
February 07 2010 08:46 GMT
#109
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 07 2010 17:23 Mystlord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2010 16:11 Incognito wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I've seen plenty of games when 0-0-0 has been fine for black. Usually when white also castles queenside. I've seen less 0-0 by black, but it is definitely playable. White can't get past black's solid kingside pawn structure without some sort of piece sacrifice. The pawns may cramp black on the kingside, but black really wants to play on the queenside or in the center. The advanced pawns shouldn't scare black unless white is confident with a piece sacrifice.

Black is perfectly capable of castling either way in the Caro. I've seen it many times. I've also seen black win when he doesn't castle. I don't see any evidence that points to h4 hindering black from castling. I also don't see any reason why black is forced to castle, Caro Kann games are semi-closed, so the king is actually quite safe in the center.

The other time when h4 becomes a liability is in the endgame. Which is what the caro-kann is all about. And I don't think white can really stop getting into an endgame unless he is really sharp or black makes a blunder. Which, sadly, I think is not the case in this game.

+ Show Spoiler +
Recently though, I saw games played where h5 never became a liability. It actually become the star of the show so to speak. It gives White a clear space advantage on the king side, and it also divides Black's attention between the king side and queen side. I'm specifically looking at games played in Gibraltar this year, which have most certainly shown the viability of h4 and the Classical variation of the Caro Kann.



Could I have some links to some of these games? I'm curious.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
February 07 2010 09:16 GMT
#110
On February 07 2010 17:46 Incognito wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 07 2010 17:23 Mystlord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2010 16:11 Incognito wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I've seen plenty of games when 0-0-0 has been fine for black. Usually when white also castles queenside. I've seen less 0-0 by black, but it is definitely playable. White can't get past black's solid kingside pawn structure without some sort of piece sacrifice. The pawns may cramp black on the kingside, but black really wants to play on the queenside or in the center. The advanced pawns shouldn't scare black unless white is confident with a piece sacrifice.

Black is perfectly capable of castling either way in the Caro. I've seen it many times. I've also seen black win when he doesn't castle. I don't see any evidence that points to h4 hindering black from castling. I also don't see any reason why black is forced to castle, Caro Kann games are semi-closed, so the king is actually quite safe in the center.

The other time when h4 becomes a liability is in the endgame. Which is what the caro-kann is all about. And I don't think white can really stop getting into an endgame unless he is really sharp or black makes a blunder. Which, sadly, I think is not the case in this game.

+ Show Spoiler +
Recently though, I saw games played where h5 never became a liability. It actually become the star of the show so to speak. It gives White a clear space advantage on the king side, and it also divides Black's attention between the king side and queen side. I'm specifically looking at games played in Gibraltar this year, which have most certainly shown the viability of h4 and the Classical variation of the Caro Kann.



Could I have some links to some of these games? I'm curious.

+ Show Spoiler +
You'll find a lot of them for free on chessgames.com. Here are some, both wins and losses. I didn't find any recent Nf3 games, but there's probably some in there that I didn't catch.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?page=76&eco=B18

There are a lot of Caro Kann classical games. The ones played at Gibraltar are mostly h4 variations. The ones played earlier are mostly Nf3s. I think both are playable, it's just the modern style prefers h4.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
February 07 2010 13:43 GMT
#111
Hi guys, its currently;

6.h4, classical mainline, 7 votes
6.Nf3, sideline, 8 votes

still a few voters unaccounted for, about 11 hours to go. Interesting stuff. After the game, I can post some analysis and theme discussion for the different move 6 options if anyone wants (6.h4, 6.Nf3, 6.Bc4, 6.N1e2).
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
malathion
Profile Joined March 2009
United States362 Posts
February 07 2010 17:30 GMT
#112
Caro-Kann player voting for 6.h4

If you think this move is weakening you are not booked in the caro-kann, sorry
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
February 07 2010 20:38 GMT
#113
H4.
clearly the best move.
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
February 08 2010 03:16 GMT
#114
I retract my vote for the clearly best move, 6. Nf3.

I change my vote to 6. Bc4.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
February 08 2010 03:19 GMT
#115
Lots of dispute over this move, amusing.
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
February 08 2010 03:20 GMT
#116
Hmm, that now makes it:

7 votes - 6.h4
7 votes - 6.Nf3
1 vote - 6.Bc4
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
February 08 2010 03:21 GMT
#117
On February 08 2010 12:16 Incognito wrote:
I retract my vote for the clearly best move, 6. Nf3.

I change my vote to 6. Bc4.

Ok... Explanation?
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-08 03:26:21
February 08 2010 03:26 GMT
#118
On February 08 2010 12:19 jfazz wrote:
Lots of dispute over this move, amusing.


No dispute, only namecalling and labeling.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
February 08 2010 03:27 GMT
#119
On February 08 2010 12:20 jfazz wrote:
Hmm, that now makes it:

7 votes - 6.h4
7 votes - 6.Nf3
1 vote - 6.Bc4


Wait what? Wouldn't it be 9 votes for 6. h4 and 6 votes for 6. Nf3??
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Arhkangel
Profile Joined August 2007
Argentina769 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-08 03:49:55
February 08 2010 03:28 GMT
#120
Holy crappers this is awesome!

Couple of things thou:
+ Show Spoiler +
mdb Inc isn't bashing anyone he is just saying why he thinks h4 is not as good a s Nf3. You kind of have to do what he's doing if you are tying to convince people to play your move.

I played out Inc's lines and they look pretty good.

Malathion could you please explain yourself a little bit more, this goes for everyone else that is not voting for h4 based on preference but that actually believe Nf3 is inferior. Some of us are not so good at chess and maybe getting more arguments for the move would help us.

+ Show Spoiler +
What I'm getting is that h4 puts early pressure with little risk that then starts to widdle down once the game progresses and it becomes a liability while Nf3 is a passive move that has a better chance to be developed upon.

IMO if we play h4 we gotta commit to the offense but with Nf3 we have some versatility ulthou we might not be able to put as much pressure as we could and playing versus Caro pressure is really important.


Why is h4 so much better versus Caro? :S


jfazz keep that analysis handy I personally really need to learn more about Caro-Kahn and your notes on the options will certainly help me out a lot, + Show Spoiler +
and just for the record the fact that you suggested h4 (the classical mainline) scares me. Makes me feel that you have some serious tricks up your sleeve.


Edit: Will do then
Part Time Ninja
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