but feeders with certain heroes (for example nunu) can still make something happen in lategame with powerful ultimates. so i stick with prefering a feeder rather than a leaver in my team, but overall both will most likely make your team lose if the opponents are mediocre or better skilled.
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Corvi
Germany1406 Posts
but feeders with certain heroes (for example nunu) can still make something happen in lategame with powerful ultimates. so i stick with prefering a feeder rather than a leaver in my team, but overall both will most likely make your team lose if the opponents are mediocre or better skilled. | ||
ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
edit: we just had this really douchy ashe called xerais (xeries, xerias...something like that), is that the equivalent guy from TL? he died a couple times then started feeding and screaming insults at everyone and yelling "surrender!" over and over again. we were at the point of having their outer layer of towers down and none of ours down when this started. | ||
Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
ps sorry for bumping this thread a lot. | ||
Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
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Alchemyst
United States36 Posts
I've won 4v5's a couple of times, even with/as pugs, by smart playing and staying together. As long as you don't let them start ganking you, and you instead gank them, you keep the area open for farming afterwards, as well as the XP and Gold. Basically, you can lose a 5v4 by feeding. | ||
mptj
United States485 Posts
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mptj
United States485 Posts
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On February 16 2010 05:59 mptj wrote: On a side note, recently I've been feeling that tristana is the best carry in the game. When she solos, she has enough defensive moves to escape most every gank, and her range just stomps out every other character in the game. Sivir > tristana IMO. | ||
Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On February 16 2010 05:54 mptj wrote: Eve is viable in later team games, because no other champion can kill before the stun is even up. She is not viable 1v1 or anything like that, but if she can grab some kill early on, she's one of the nastiest characters in the game. no, for many reasons. everyone runs merc treads at high level play since CC stacking is so rampant. magic resist...people do not build 6 attack damage items like you see in scrub games. usually a balance between survivability and damage for carries even, unless its a ranged carry like tristana/corki with good escape abilities. eve dies in 2 hits late game if she has the damage you speak of, oracle elixir will kill her before she even touches you. she is only viable for pubstomping, bottom line. | ||
Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On February 16 2010 06:14 Brees wrote: no, for many reasons. everyone runs merc treads at high level play since CC stacking is so rampant. magic resist...people do not build 6 attack damage items like you see in scrub games. usually a balance between survivability and damage for carries even, unless its a ranged carry like tristana/corki with good escape abilities. eve dies in 2 hits late game if she has the damage you speak of, oracle elixir will kill her before she even touches you. she is only viable for pubstomping, bottom line. Not to mention at higher levels there's a massive amount of AoE spam, combo-chain killers (Blitz, TF), and snares that make melee DPS heroes pretty much unviable. Eve has the worst of every world being a melee hero, with no escape mechanism, no way of getting close, and no survivability to eat AoE damage while being snared en route to a target. When I Udyr I'm always having to grit my teeth and just bite every bullet that flies my way - if a Fiddle ults there's no escape; if a Pantheon ults there's no escape. Unless, of course, they opt not to attack me, but wouldn't you love it if the other team opts not to attack DPS, especially one running into their team. On February 16 2010 05:59 mptj wrote: On a side note, recently I've been feeling that tristana is the best carry in the game. When she solos, she has enough defensive moves to escape most every gank, and her range just stomps out every other character in the game. She has one of the strongest dps skills in the game, as it gives her pretty much max attack speed for 5 seconds. For those 5 seconds she's hands down the best carry in the game. | ||
StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On February 16 2010 06:19 Southlight wrote: Not to mention at higher levels there's a massive amount of AoE spam, combo-chain killers (Blitz, TF), and snares that make melee DPS heroes pretty much unviable. Eve has the worst of every world being a melee hero, with no escape mechanism, no way of getting close, and no survivability to eat AoE damage while being snared en route to a target. When I Udyr I'm always having to grit my teeth and just bite every bullet that flies my way - if a Fiddle ults there's no escape; if a Pantheon ults there's no escape. Unless, of course, they opt not to attack me, but wouldn't you love it if the other team opts not to attack DPS, especially one running into their team. She has one of the strongest dps skills in the game, as it gives her pretty much max attack speed for 5 seconds. For those 5 seconds she's hands down the best carry in the game. I disagree. Tristana has no auras or stuns and her slow has much more limited utility value. She is far from the best carry in the game, not even with her speed on. All it takes is an exhaust and a stun to rape Tristana. She gets countered by most blinker heroes: Shaco/Kassadin/Malphy. And sivir is a better pusher/team fighter without needing half as much farm. Trist needs so much farm to be useful that any decent carry hero with her gear could do the same or better. I've never been much impressed with Tristana. Low skill and low utility value. | ||
Southlight
United States11767 Posts
Trist with Lizard buff will pretty much guarantee a kill on any hero caught in open space unless they're either a devoted 1v1 hero (Shaco, Ryze, etc.) or have been fed/farmed to be stronger (which would be the downfall of any DPS hero). In a teamfight she's supposed to sit there and output damage, at which she is the best at, in the game, particularly in the 5 seconds her skill is up. And she doesn't need much farm; Trist with equal equipment to other similar "carry" heroes (ie. IE/LW) will do 100% more damage because of that skill, on top of her "free" 50% heal reduc, and her passive allows her to farm and push faster than most DPS carry heroes, provided you can last hit properly. Sivir is incomparable to Trist, it sounds like comparing Taric to Trist. They're built for different things. Sivir is a great hero, but Trist is far and away the single best DPS hero in the game right now. Now, does every team need a Trist? Of course not. But if you set up a team with 4 CC spammers and you just need one hero to unload maximum damage, a good Trist is the best choice. On February 15 2010 14:45 ShaperofDreams wrote: whats the best teemo build, is he viable in high level play? im trying to find "my" champion Teemo has to be built as a DPSer cuz they killed his shroom damage by like 25%. He's viable if you're good with him, but I don't know if he's the most efficient at what he'd have to do (ranged DPS). He's a hard counter to pretty much every physical damage character that might come mid, because his early-game damage output + blind can and will knock enemies completely out of farming range. But his effectiveness plummets against a caster mid, because you'll just end up trading damage, and so you have to know if/when your damage trumps the caster's burst damage, if you want to kill/push. His shrooms enable him to prevent most ganks, so if you can dominate mid, you can free farm like crazy with other teams hardly being able to touch you, and that lets you roll into super farm -> win. IMO he's got the same problem as Ashe though, in that neither of them have a built-in DPS build, so he's simply not efficient at carrying - good Teemos will carry, but they're usually abusing his shroom/blind to dominate mid-lane and farm, and if that's denied they'll have a bad game. I play Ashe as a ranged support hero, but Teemo doesn't have the luxury of being able to switch like that (he only has one "utility" skill, and it gets wrecked by Treads). In other words, if you're comfortable with him and you're confident you can win mid against any hero, he's good. Otherwise he's inefficient compared to a pure DPSer like Trist, and that's why I don't think you see many Teemos at mid-high Elos anymore. | ||
mptj
United States485 Posts
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
Sion's one, Udyr's one, Blitzcrank is one, but all three of them have some nasty tanking power. Which is pretty much how it goes for melee heroes. If you have 1800 hp and no armor/MR you'll die in like 3 seconds without even being focus fire'd. Ah, Nidalee and Poppy are relatively viable too. Nidalee in particular because she has a strong escape mechanism. Poppy's relatively viable because of her ult. Edit: By the way the other reason why ranged DPS > melee DPS is that ranged DPS is a very strong pre-initiator. It's also why Trist with her range is so vicious. If your tank is looking at initiating, and Trist starts hitting the tank with her nasty range, and has Lizard Buff, the tank is forced to use "something" prevent snare'd death, has to initiate, or the team abandons the tank and there's a free tank kill. Plus if shit hits the fan you can jump back with Trist and re-establish lines in your favour, as long as Trist's team isn't playing impatient. If Trist "initiates" a fight and her team doesn't just run forward, her team always, always has a massive advantage. This is exacerbated if the vs Trist team has no voice chat, because you're going to have to somehow corral enough coordination to attack AT ONCE, or else you'll have a handful of heroes attack into Trist's line while the remnants straggle, etc. You can't do that sort of territory control with a melee DPS. | ||
Baikinman
United States74 Posts
When i play blitz i would rather face Siv than Trist who can hit and run cuz the only way to catch Trist is by hooking before they jump or shoot u away. Only been able to catch them after they use ult 9-10 times where i hook, then ult comes but i will pull them where i land making the hook distance 2x. There's more Siv player than Trist that's good with one simple reason... Siv is easy to play -.- | ||
StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On February 16 2010 07:23 Southlight wrote: That's because she's pure DPS, is like saying Master Yi is a horrible DPSer because he has no stuns and snares. Obviously Yi is not viable at high levels because he lacks built-in durability to offset the random damage you take as you output your damage, but that's why no pure melee DPS is viable. Trist with Lizard buff will pretty much guarantee a kill on any hero caught in open space unless they're either a devoted 1v1 hero (Shaco, Ryze, etc.) or have been fed/farmed to be stronger (which would be the downfall of any DPS hero). In a teamfight she's supposed to sit there and output damage, at which she is the best at, in the game, particularly in the 5 seconds her skill is up. And she doesn't need much farm; Trist with equal equipment to other similar "carry" heroes (ie. IE/LW) will do 100% more damage because of that skill, on top of her "free" 50% heal reduc, and her passive allows her to farm and push faster than most DPS carry heroes, provided you can last hit properly. Sivir is incomparable to Trist, it sounds like comparing Taric to Trist. They're built for different things. Sivir is a great hero, but Trist is far and away the single best DPS hero in the game right now. Now, does every team need a Trist? Of course not. But if you set up a team with 4 CC spammers and you just need one hero to unload maximum damage, a good Trist is the best choice. Teemo has to be built as a DPSer cuz they killed his shroom damage by like 25%. He's viable if you're good with him, but I don't know if he's the most efficient at what he'd have to do (ranged DPS). He's a hard counter to pretty much every physical damage character that might come mid, because his early-game damage output + blind can and will knock enemies completely out of farming range. But his effectiveness plummets against a caster mid, because you'll just end up trading damage, and so you have to know if/when your damage trumps the caster's burst damage, if you want to kill/push. His shrooms enable him to prevent most ganks, so if you can dominate mid, you can free farm like crazy with other teams hardly being able to touch you, and that lets you roll into super farm -> win. IMO he's got the same problem as Ashe though, in that neither of them have a built-in DPS build, so he's simply not efficient at carrying - good Teemos will carry, but they're usually abusing his shroom/blind to dominate mid-lane and farm, and if that's denied they'll have a bad game. I play Ashe as a ranged support hero, but Teemo doesn't have the luxury of being able to switch like that (he only has one "utility" skill, and it gets wrecked by Treads). In other words, if you're comfortable with him and you're confident you can win mid against any hero, he's good. Otherwise he's inefficient compared to a pure DPSer like Trist, and that's why I don't think you see many Teemos at mid-high Elos anymore. If you're talking pure DPS potential in a team fight, Sivir outclasses Trist in every way possible. You can have your +90% attack speed. Sivir gets +65% atk speed (+half that for the entire team) AND she hits 5 people at once. Tristana doesn't come close to that. And compare Tristana's ult to Sivir's spiral blade. 9 sec CD on spiral blade for same damage except it can hit the entire team rather than one person. Tristana's ult? 60 sec CD. Only benefit of Tristana's nuke being that it knocks people back. And when you have a team of CCers, that's not what you really want. Tristana does not get much play in high level LoL for obvious reasons. She's a stinky hero with limited value to the team and needs a lot of farm to be useful. Sure, in lower level play, she can dominate if she gets farmed and fed and she's good at pushing towers solo with her big raw damage. But you're nuts if you think Tristana DPS > Sivir DPS in a team fight. There are more heroes that can shut a Tristana down than can shut a Sivir down (if it's even possible to shut Sivir down with less than 3 ppl), and if you bring up the ideal situation of enemy team totally locked down by CC and you just need someone to pump damage, sorry Trist is not as good as Sivir. | ||
EchOne
United States2906 Posts
Then again just last night when I was playing Blitz I ganked a Sivir several times when all she did was push lanes and never spell shield my grab or ult. EDIT: This was in response to Baikinman who asserted that Sivir is played exclusively because it is easy to play her. Whether or not people use that reasoning, the fact is she's strong and at least some players will pick her because of that. | ||
EchOne
United States2906 Posts
Sivir is still hands down superior, but Tristana has her strengths and is by no means comparatively worthless. | ||
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