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On May 21 2010 23:30 Southlight wrote:
The majority of lolbase uploaders aren't very good, I think, so you get really skewed statistics. Shaco dominates low-mid-tier games because people don't know how to deal with him, but he's really just a slightly-better Eve.
I can't count the number of times I've lost because of Shaco... being on my team. It's far, far under a positive ratio. We're talking like 5 wins 30 losses sort of performance. I'd queue-dodge him but there're too many stupid Shaco players that I just hope for the best and get ready to take the loss.
Agreed. I feel the same way about AP Zilean -- he used to just win games, because he's a really unusual champ and no one knew how to handle him. Once you understand his capabilities, he's a pretty mediocre damage source (though of course a pretty decent support).
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rofl i owning zilean. You can either burst him to nothing, and he cant use his ult when stunned. or just walk happily next to whoever he ulted, and wait for the ring to disappear, or in team fights just ignore him for a bit.
it's annoying when the majority of my allies dont know how to do these simple things though. --'
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Zilean is supposed to be AP, not only because of his damage (time bomb having 1.1 AP ratio, altho that's finally being nerfed) but because it gives great HP return on his ult, which is the most important part. AP/CD, just like Morgana, which is why I always mention those two build the same. I mean what else are you going to do.
You can burst Zilean but Zilean should really not be caught by burst - if he's caught he's made a positioning mistake or he's trying to cover for someone who made a mistake. His stuff is so long ranged that there should never be a good reason you got caught unless you're trying to ult someone who's stupid. It's also why it's good to have Cleanse on Zilean.
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On May 21 2010 23:51 Southlight wrote:
Zilean is supposed to be AP, not only because of his damage (time bomb having 1.1 AP ratio, altho that's finally being nerfed) but because it gives great HP return on his ult, which is the most important part. AP/CD, just like Morgana, which is why I always mention those two build the same. I mean what else are you going to do.
You can burst Zilean but Zilean should really not be caught by burst - if he's caught he's made a positioning mistake or he's trying to cover for someone who made a mistake. His stuff is so long ranged that there should never be a good reason you got caught unless you're trying to ult someone who's stupid. It's also why it's good to have Cleanse on Zilean.
Why AP over support? I think locket and aegis probably do more to help the team than a bit more bomb damage and revival health. I believe it's kyzeros0ze who plays a badass support Zilean, if you want an example.
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Locket is OK (mainly because it helps Zilean's mana issues), Aegis is pointless - also Aegis isn't that great an item anymore, anyways.
Revival HP is critical. It's essentially a gigantic heal. It returns 500/750/1000 hp but with a whopping THREE AP Ratio. By end-game if you have a great amount of AP not only will you be dealing out more AoE damage, you'll also be reviving even tanks at half HP etc, which in conjunction with DPS tanks like Nasus or Udyr or some retarded OP hero like Jax makes things really ugly.
Edit:
I'll point out for clarification; PBAoE items on Zilean are pretty trash because Zilean is a map control hero; he'll run to one lane, push it, then re-join team etc. So a lot of times he'll be late to a teamfight - he plays out a lot like Janna, which is why I mentioned before when I played Janna and KR played Zilean we were a REALLY annoying team because we were causing every lane to be pushing nonstop. Not to mention Zilean should always be really far back, so the people being hit (tanks, melee) usually won't be getting any benefit whatsoever from the PBAoE items. Locket is okay because it helps solve his mana issues (as he's casting a 50 mana spell every 3.2 seconds, 40 mana return helps ease that), but is far from optimal as it doesn't give him any CD for such an expensive item, nor does it really help melee heroes unless you're playing very (re: overly) audacious for a Zilean.
Edit2:
Like Janna, you want to build AP on Zilean because your only threat-level comes from your defensive strength (in Zil's case his ult) and what little damage he can spew out with his bombs, which come with the added bonus of being obnoxiously AoE. It's similar to Kayle, who also should build AP/CD, but Kayle has it worst of the bunch because the range on her stuff is considerably shorter, so you usually can't get away with just going AP/CD, and thus stuff like Aegis is a bit more usable. That said I don't think there's any set BO for Kayle because she's usually playing a mix of tank/support, so... take that as you will.
You also want high AP because you want to be able to damage creep as fast as possible; if you can one-shot the ranged creep that's ideal, because then you can time bomb a ranged creep and a melee creep then walk away; 3 seconds later you'll get gold from the 3 creep, get one or two gold from melee creep, and you'll have pushed the lane greatly. It's the same strat I use on Janna, where I'll be trying to stay ahead of creep HP/MR with Gale so that I'll always one-shot ranged creep. That way if a lane is pushing I can line up a Gale and then walk away, the lane is pushing no more, and I get a lot of gold.
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I flash ulti'd countless zileans with my annie. its pretty easy, and short of them getting a random levithan or some HP and making themselves useless, they're dead, and in which case i wouldnt even bother targeting them.
Occasionally i'll see a cleanse on zilean in the lobby, and ill just wait for him to cleanse before popping my ignite and finishing him.
If he ults, then i just turn on my shield for the movement speed +, and just walk right along side him, waving.
By countless i mean at least 50 times or more, at my current ELO.
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Support heroes as a whole should generally be getting Cleanse because it's very easy to get FF'd and killed. You illustrate my point exactly about how Zils should always take Cleanse. If they don't, well, nothing I can say, really. Also Zilean shouldn't be dying in one go to Annie from full health unless he's like superduper underleveled, which shouldn't be happening anyways. Normally Cleanse out of Tibbers and Zilean is alive and well, regardless of the other two things you pop on him. And with his movement speed buff you shouldn't be able to finish him. You can gank Zilean with a flash ult but if you fire everything you have via Flash on a Zilean who's hanging back in a teamfight, and the Zil cleanses out you've got a big problem on your hands. As in like, a dead Annie and a Zilean who shouldn't have needed to use ult on himself.
Edit:
Incidentally like 98% of Zilean players suck. The top players all keep saying he's OP when played well, and it's meant exactly that way. If played well he can feel like god-tier, because he's got Janna's map control, almost her defensive capabilities (via time warp) and combined with an OP hero becomes obscene, like Twitch Kayle. But most people aren't good or are highly inconsistent because they don't cast Rewind at every CD, don't farm up well early-game (too obsessed with useless harass), get caught out of position too much, and/or waste their ult.
Case in point, I love Zilean but I have like 10 bad games to 1 good game.
Edit2:
Unless I'm insane and/or stupid, I don't think Annie's shield gives her movement speed.
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I always spend way too much on wards as Zil and I end games with Tear Mobiliboots and some ~2kgold item.
I'm trying to decide what to get though. Deathfire for AP/CD? Mejai's for AP and maybe CD if I do well enough? Glacial Shroud for all the CD I need and plenty of mana for when I grab Archangel's?
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It's tough. Ideally your team helps you and lets you keep golem buff running for as long as possible; that means with masteries (9%) and some runes you can get around 40% for "free." That lets you build tear into straight AP for something like Zhon Arch, which'll let you do everything. But if the other team has a jungler and your team doesn't (or has one of your own) it can be difficult to hang onto golem buff.
IMO he's a very team-dependant hero, far more than his main competition (Janna), and requires so many different attributes (mp/5 + AP + cd) and one strong hero that he's a lot more limited. But if you've got a Jax (or relative equivalent) on your team and your team is coordinated enough to keep getting you golem buff he and Jax (or relative equivalent) win games ezpz.
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suffeli
Finland772 Posts
On May 21 2010 23:30 Southlight wrote:
...but he's really just a slightly-better Eve.
Now that is a bit too harsh(Eve is the poop tier)... have some love for the clown. L0cust put Shaco in Tier 3, dunno if it still valid.
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Annie's shield does not give movement speed. What does everyone think of Locket on Ezreal? I never saw it until about a week ago and all of a sudden every Ez is building it.
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I actually feel Eve is "okay" now because of all the mobility heroes ruling the world. She's a lot more viable now than she was when it was AoE spam. She's in Akali tier, for me. Akali, Shaco, Eve, all the same. Crap in 90% of games but sometimes they'll actually *gasp* help you win. Maybe add Kennen to that list.
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Official Tryhard Team List
Primary:
Soraka: Gozey
Ezrael: Wrawrawrawrawra; LiamHomoSex
Shen (Preferably jungling): Imbored, Cerumo
DPS: RadJacob (Tristana), Soner (Nidalee)
Secondary/Switchable:
Blitzcrank: ZackSkyy
Janna:
Jax:
Fiddlesticks:
Copy/Paste this list and put your name on it, so we know whom to prioritize inviting when people are on.
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Where do you put Yi?
Because AP Yi is quickly becoming hard to deal with, now that people are wising up on him.
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On May 22 2010 02:13 InsideTheBox wrote:
Annie's shield does not give movement speed. What does everyone think of Locket on Ezreal? I never saw it until about a week ago and all of a sudden every Ez is building it.
depends on team comp, but it's awful strong for the early-mid game push.
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On May 22 2010 02:38 Gokey wrote:
Official Tryhard Team List
Primary:
Soraka: Gozey
Ezrael: Wrawrawrawrawra; LiamHomoSex
Shen (Preferably jungling): Imbored, Cerumo
DPS: RadJacob (Tristana), Soner (Nidalee), 5HITCOMBO (Tristana)
Secondary/Switchable:
Blitzcrank:
Janna:
Jax:
Fiddlesticks:
Cho'Gath: 5HITCOMBO
Copy/Paste this list and put your name on it, so we know whom to prioritize inviting when people are on.
Throw me on there with Cho and Tristana, I'm usually LFG when my regular group isn't on, and they're on Hawaii time when I'm in Korea.
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On May 22 2010 02:38 Gokey wrote:
Official Tryhard Team List
Primary:
Soraka: Gozey
Ezrael: Wrawrawrawrawra; LiamHomoSex
Shen (Preferably jungling): Imbored, Cerumo
DPS: RadJacob (Tristana), Soner (Nidalee), Pnaxighn (Sivir)
Secondary/Switchable:
Blitzcrank: ZackSkyy
Janna:
Jax:
Fiddlesticks: Pnaxighn
Copy/Paste this list and put your name on it, so we know whom to prioritize inviting when people are on.
What's the difference between "primary" and "secondary"?
Anyway, put me down (pnaxighn) for Fiddlesticks and Sivir -- whether Sivir is "DPS" is your call.
Edit: you probably want Baikanman on that blitz list...
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On May 22 2010 02:17 Southlight wrote:
I actually feel Eve is "okay" now because of all the mobility heroes ruling the world. She's a lot more viable now than she was when it was AoE spam. She's in Akali tier, for me. Akali, Shaco, Eve, all the same. Crap in 90% of games but sometimes they'll actually *gasp* help you win. Maybe add Kennen to that list.
I think Kassadin's also in that tier.
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On May 22 2010 02:57 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 02:17 Southlight wrote:
I actually feel Eve is "okay" now because of all the mobility heroes ruling the world. She's a lot more viable now than she was when it was AoE spam. She's in Akali tier, for me. Akali, Shaco, Eve, all the same. Crap in 90% of games but sometimes they'll actually *gasp* help you win. Maybe add Kennen to that list. I think Kassadin's also in that tier.
That's because you don't play a caster. Kassadin's long range silence, passive, tendency to be just slightly too beefy to go down to a couple good bursts, and ability to chase/tele makes a giant pain for Fiddle, Annie, and Ryze, and I'm guessing Anivia feels the same way. If you're playing with a decent team, it's fine, but if your team can't coordinate he's a very good counter to casters.
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He's also a phenomenal counter to, who'd a thunk it, Nidalee. It's really weird.
I have no idea about Yi atm, I haven't played in a few days and I haven't run into an AP Yi that bothered me.
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EPT
