On January 01 2012 13:42 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On December 28 2011 22:10 Erasme wrote:
On December 28 2011 21:08 Goibon wrote:
On December 27 2011 20:19 alhazrel wrote: [The reason I said I'm excited to see how BW players use the SC2 units is because SC2 pros are still learning about their uses and new players, with pro level mechanics, fresh and unprejudiced by all the patches may notice something those involved through all the minor tweaks are missing. I'm hoping for more early ghost/raven builds, but we'll have to see.
This is hugely exciting for me too. Already fOrGG is showing some new things which the existing SC2 pros for whatever reason just aren't doing.
If nothing else it totally shakes the game up which does wonders to prevent a game from getting stagnant. It's not just a newer, possibly better player, it's one with new tricks and a new perspective.
Such as ? Thor/hellion/banshee all in ? Or hellions harass into cloaked banshee ?
It's not necessarily his builds that are good. It's his mechanics, awareness, and overall way of strategizing and doing things. Replace ForGG with most other Terrans doing those builds against the same opponents, and they'd get crushed.
I've been watching ForGG everytime his stream is online, but I've yet seen the difference between his play and other top Terrans, such as Bomber, Polt. Jjaki except his games are extremely short followed by triple commercials.
I'm not saying he's not good or something, just that I fail to see what the difference is. He's great, but not someone who is showing new things.
Did you watch his GSL Code A games? There is a big difference between his ladder sessions and his tournament play. He looked unstoppable in basically every GSL game with his amazing micro. Those games against July were jaw dropping IMO.
On January 01 2012 13:42 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On December 28 2011 22:10 Erasme wrote:
On December 28 2011 21:08 Goibon wrote:
On December 27 2011 20:19 alhazrel wrote: [The reason I said I'm excited to see how BW players use the SC2 units is because SC2 pros are still learning about their uses and new players, with pro level mechanics, fresh and unprejudiced by all the patches may notice something those involved through all the minor tweaks are missing. I'm hoping for more early ghost/raven builds, but we'll have to see.
This is hugely exciting for me too. Already fOrGG is showing some new things which the existing SC2 pros for whatever reason just aren't doing.
If nothing else it totally shakes the game up which does wonders to prevent a game from getting stagnant. It's not just a newer, possibly better player, it's one with new tricks and a new perspective.
Such as ? Thor/hellion/banshee all in ? Or hellions harass into cloaked banshee ?
It's not necessarily his builds that are good. It's his mechanics, awareness, and overall way of strategizing and doing things. Replace ForGG with most other Terrans doing those builds against the same opponents, and they'd get crushed.
I've been watching ForGG everytime his stream is online, but I've yet seen the difference between his play and other top Terrans, such as Bomber, Polt. Jjaki except his games are extremely short followed by triple commercials.
I'm not saying he's not good or something, just that I fail to see what the difference is. He's great, but not someone who is showing new things.
If you're looking for new things, you won't find it here. His mechanical ability is on a different level than anyone else in gsl so far. BW players aren't some demi god who bring in a completely new strat like viking thor or something. (unless they're flash) They simply use what is given to them and do it better than anyone else. don't expect forgg to come up with a sick new strat or something (possibly new timings as that's what he was known for).
On January 01 2012 13:42 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On December 28 2011 22:10 Erasme wrote:
On December 28 2011 21:08 Goibon wrote:
On December 27 2011 20:19 alhazrel wrote: [The reason I said I'm excited to see how BW players use the SC2 units is because SC2 pros are still learning about their uses and new players, with pro level mechanics, fresh and unprejudiced by all the patches may notice something those involved through all the minor tweaks are missing. I'm hoping for more early ghost/raven builds, but we'll have to see.
This is hugely exciting for me too. Already fOrGG is showing some new things which the existing SC2 pros for whatever reason just aren't doing.
If nothing else it totally shakes the game up which does wonders to prevent a game from getting stagnant. It's not just a newer, possibly better player, it's one with new tricks and a new perspective.
Such as ? Thor/hellion/banshee all in ? Or hellions harass into cloaked banshee ?
It's not necessarily his builds that are good. It's his mechanics, awareness, and overall way of strategizing and doing things. Replace ForGG with most other Terrans doing those builds against the same opponents, and they'd get crushed.
I've been watching ForGG everytime his stream is online, but I've yet seen the difference between his play and other top Terrans, such as Bomber, Polt. Jjaki except his games are extremely short followed by triple commercials.
I'm not saying he's not good or something, just that I fail to see what the difference is. He's great, but not someone who is showing new things.
If you're looking for new things, you won't find it here. His mechanical ability is on a different level than anyone else in gsl so far. BW players aren't some demi god who bring in a completely new strat like viking thor or something. (unless they're flash) They simply use what is given to them and do it better than anyone else. don't expect forgg to come up with a sick new strat or something (possibly new timings as that's what he was known for).
This is pretty much exactly right. If you look carefully at at least one of his Code A games he played in a Bo3 he uses the exact same builds IMMvp uses on those maps as well - because IMMvp is a master of choosing the right builds for each match up on each map.
vs Sage on Bel'Shir Beach - Gasless FE into 4rax Marine Timing into standard MMMVG (See IMMvp vs oGsMC Blizzard Cup Group Stage)
vs Polt on Daybreak - Gasless FE into Cloak Banshee into Blue Flame into Mech timing at 130 food. (Mvp does this build HEAPS on this map, most recent would be also vs Polt on Daybreak in Blizzard Cup - he has shown it as far back as vs TOP in GSL Finals for that season)
vs July on Bel'Shir - IMMvp loves to chuck in 2 rax plays on this map. Although he usually builds both barracks at the third expansion and fOrGG built both in his main and lifted one down there which worked out better because it threw off July's scouting.
What was really incredible was his extremely good mechanics which were shown in every other game as well, where he would hit a weird 1/1/1 pressure timing with banshee follow up into expand into standard compositions for the particular match up.
Just because he plays ridiculous on ladder shows nothing and helps to keep his opponents guessing in case he ever meets them in GSL and they expect the same as he would do on ladder.
On January 01 2012 13:42 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On December 28 2011 22:10 Erasme wrote:
On December 28 2011 21:08 Goibon wrote:
On December 27 2011 20:19 alhazrel wrote: [The reason I said I'm excited to see how BW players use the SC2 units is because SC2 pros are still learning about their uses and new players, with pro level mechanics, fresh and unprejudiced by all the patches may notice something those involved through all the minor tweaks are missing. I'm hoping for more early ghost/raven builds, but we'll have to see.
This is hugely exciting for me too. Already fOrGG is showing some new things which the existing SC2 pros for whatever reason just aren't doing.
If nothing else it totally shakes the game up which does wonders to prevent a game from getting stagnant. It's not just a newer, possibly better player, it's one with new tricks and a new perspective.
Such as ? Thor/hellion/banshee all in ? Or hellions harass into cloaked banshee ?
It's not necessarily his builds that are good. It's his mechanics, awareness, and overall way of strategizing and doing things. Replace ForGG with most other Terrans doing those builds against the same opponents, and they'd get crushed.
I've been watching ForGG everytime his stream is online, but I've yet seen the difference between his play and other top Terrans, such as Bomber, Polt. Jjaki except his games are extremely short followed by triple commercials.
I'm not saying he's not good or something, just that I fail to see what the difference is. He's great, but not someone who is showing new things.
Did you watch his GSL Code A games? There is a big difference between his ladder sessions and his tournament play. He looked unstoppable in basically every GSL game with his amazing micro. Those games against July were jaw dropping IMO.
I would just say if the argument is whether forgg is just as good as the other top terrans or better means the debate is already won for the idea that bw players are superior. Forgg doesn't need to 15-0 all of GSLs best players to show superior skill of bw players.
Also, Hyun just qualified on his very first try for code A. The has legitimately played only a few months and already made it. That says sooooo much.
I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket ball because they believe it is the harder sport.
Actually yes. I would bet sports like pétanque, fléchettes( so many French words here), or curling are less popular because they're not considered as difficult. Or to take a better example, there's a reason why chess and go are kings in the realm of board games, compared to backgammon, othello or draughts.
hmm I don't think so. I'd consider darts and poker pretty easy and they are popular as hell. On the other hand things like Ironman, extreme climbing or apnoe diving, which definitely kick ass and are as difficult as it gets, are not as popular as the "everyone can do it" alternative jogging, scuba diving and climbing in a hall. Even on TV the marathon gets a lot more attention than the Ironman.
Also, I don't think Chess is as popular as Settlers of Catan. So no, I believe people prefer stuff they can pull of too, in most cases.
People sometimes like sports they can relate to. In Starcraft therms, they want to see stuff and go "wow I wanna try it and maybe execute it to some degree". As great as Broodwar is, it requires so much multitasking that most of the stuff can't be copied. I know that this is usually a Pro-Broodwar arguement, but it doesn't necessarily add to the popularity of a game.
Why's that a facepalm moment? I didn't know something, and people told me. If you facepalm every time you spot the slightest bit of ignorance you'll wear out your forehead pretty fast.
On December 26 2011 04:49 ChoboKal wrote: Day 9 just did a daily that talked about game design and explained why broodwar is so different. I have never played broodwar really (maybe 5 tiems). But the way he explains it better unit control can increase the effectiveness of you units by multipliers of like 3-9x eg. good muta control can increase their effectiveness by 9x. Where as in SC2 good unit control can maybe increase the effectiveness by mabye 1.5x. He says that is why it is so much harder. He goes on to explain that blizzards only way to make the game harder is to make maps and things bigger or give more reasons to target fire and such ( I didn't really understand that part that well). Any ways if you enjoy playing/watching SC2 thats good but it should become issue if its "hard enough" because the skill ceiling has not been hit yet.
I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket baL2ll because they believe it is the harder sport.
In BW you actually MICRO ur units so they take down the biggest threat to give you a advantage during battle Snipe shuttle, reaver, defiler, science vessels, arbiters, lukers, tanks, HT can change the entire battle.
In SC2 deathball kill smaller deathball. GG The last part is a joke of course well.... maybe 30% true....
So... this the kind of post that makes people get so mad about this topic and forces comments like:"because 500apm to control a single unit indicates good game design"(not my opinion... mine would be l2p and you will find out that there are no such things like deathballs in sc2)
No deathballs you say? Well that must suck for all those pro's that talk about deathballs, guess they better learn to play.
And 500 apm to control a unit is a gross exaggeration. There is no unit that even requires close to that in either of the games. It's controlling multiple units at once that leads to the high APM.
To be honest, the deathball does also exist in broodwar ...
On December 26 2011 04:49 ChoboKal wrote: Day 9 just did a daily that talked about game design and explained why broodwar is so different. I have never played broodwar really (maybe 5 tiems). But the way he explains it better unit control can increase the effectiveness of you units by multipliers of like 3-9x eg. good muta control can increase their effectiveness by 9x. Where as in SC2 good unit control can maybe increase the effectiveness by mabye 1.5x. He says that is why it is so much harder. He goes on to explain that blizzards only way to make the game harder is to make maps and things bigger or give more reasons to target fire and such ( I didn't really understand that part that well). Any ways if you enjoy playing/watching SC2 thats good but it should become issue if its "hard enough" because the skill ceiling has not been hit yet.
I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket baL2ll because they believe it is the harder sport.
In BW you actually MICRO ur units so they take down the biggest threat to give you a advantage during battle Snipe shuttle, reaver, defiler, science vessels, arbiters, lukers, tanks, HT can change the entire battle.
In SC2 deathball kill smaller deathball. GG The last part is a joke of course well.... maybe 30% true....
So... this the kind of post that makes people get so mad about this topic and forces comments like:"because 500apm to control a single unit indicates good game design"(not my opinion... mine would be l2p and you will find out that there are no such things like deathballs in sc2)
No deathballs you say? Well that must suck for all those pro's that talk about deathballs, guess they better learn to play.
And 500 apm to control a unit is a gross exaggeration. There is no unit that even requires close to that in either of the games. It's controlling multiple units at once that leads to the high APM.
To be honest, the deathball does also exist in broodwar ...
It exists in Red Alert 2 also , Mass apocalypse tank with flak cannon vehicle , the perfect couple when mass produce . Anti ground and anti air nothing can beat that combo .
On December 26 2011 04:49 ChoboKal wrote: Day 9 just did a daily that talked about game design and explained why broodwar is so different. I have never played broodwar really (maybe 5 tiems). But the way he explains it better unit control can increase the effectiveness of you units by multipliers of like 3-9x eg. good muta control can increase their effectiveness by 9x. Where as in SC2 good unit control can maybe increase the effectiveness by mabye 1.5x. He says that is why it is so much harder. He goes on to explain that blizzards only way to make the game harder is to make maps and things bigger or give more reasons to target fire and such ( I didn't really understand that part that well). Any ways if you enjoy playing/watching SC2 thats good but it should become issue if its "hard enough" because the skill ceiling has not been hit yet.
I doubt most people favor a real sport eg. soccer, baseball, basket baL2ll because they believe it is the harder sport.
In BW you actually MICRO ur units so they take down the biggest threat to give you a advantage during battle Snipe shuttle, reaver, defiler, science vessels, arbiters, lukers, tanks, HT can change the entire battle.
In SC2 deathball kill smaller deathball. GG The last part is a joke of course well.... maybe 30% true....
So... this the kind of post that makes people get so mad about this topic and forces comments like:"because 500apm to control a single unit indicates good game design"(not my opinion... mine would be l2p and you will find out that there are no such things like deathballs in sc2)
No deathballs you say? Well that must suck for all those pro's that talk about deathballs, guess they better learn to play.
And 500 apm to control a unit is a gross exaggeration. There is no unit that even requires close to that in either of the games. It's controlling multiple units at once that leads to the high APM.
To be honest, the deathball does also exist in broodwar ...
It exists in Red Alert 2 also , Mass apocalypse tank with flak cannon vehicle , the perfect couple when mass produce . Anti ground and anti air nothing can beat that combo .
EPT
